A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23
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Peace brother Tanveer,
I would gladly accept the interpretation that you proposed, if you can resolve the issues that I note below.
- If 43 is talking about "marrying", then the marriage has to be in groups of 2, 3, or 4 which is evident from the words used in 43 meaning two's, three's and four's rather than 2,3,4. That means we can marry only in groups i.e. 2 widows at the same time, or 3 widows at the same time or 4 widows at the same time. That will create another interesting logical contradiction with 423. According to 423 it is forbidden to be romantically involved with 2 sisters at the same time. However, according to 43, theoretically one will be able to marry 3 or 4 sisters at the same time in a group which will contradict 423. I discussed this with brother mquran who had an excellent refutation by saying that one cannot get to the stage of marrying 3 sisters without first marrying 2 sisters, and as soon as one marries 2 sisters at the same time one will be in violation of 423. What if one marries all 3 sisters at the same exact time ? Then one will not be violating 423. One can sign the three marriage contracts in front of 3 witnesses without the sisters having signed them yet. Then the 3 sisters can sign their respective marriage contracts at the same time followed by the 3 witnesses signing the respective contracts at the same time. What then ? But that will contradict with 423 where Allah does not even want romantic involvement with 2 sisters at the same time.
Actually 423 and 43 when put together make it clear that one can marry more than one widow. This is for the simple reason that the only objection raised in 423 is the combining of the two sisters (of course combining any number greater than 2 would also involve combining 2 and therefore is covered by 423). Therefore implicit in the restriction against combining 2 sisters is the indication that combining NON-SISTERS is OK when the situation in 43 arises.
- The word used for DOWRY/WAGES in al-qur'aan, implying that one has to marry, is always "UJURAHUNNA" and not "SADUQATIHINNA" which is used in 44 meaning INHERITANCE and not dowry/wages, therefore if it means "marry" in 43 that will create a contradiction/inconsistency with the rest of al-qur'aan where always "ujurahunna" is used for dowry/wages, implying "marry" rather than "marry off". Thus in 43 "marry off" will be the best understanding in view of the context of "saduqatihinna".
44 And give the women their INHERITANCE (saduqatihinna) willingly, and if they remit any of it to you of their own will, then you may take it with good feelings.
If Allah meant in 43 for us to marry the widows He would have used the word "UJURAHUNNA" in 44 meaning give them their dowry/wages. However Allah uses the word "SADUQATIHINNA" for what we are supposed to give to the widows clearly meaning we are to MARRY THEM OFF and give them their INHERITANCE. Wherever Allah is talking about MARRY He uses the word "UJURAHUNNA" meaning dowry/wages as in the following ayat
426 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the believing independent women, then from the still dependant believing young women. God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their DOWRY/WAGES (ujurahuuna) in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers.
57 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent from the believing women, and the independent from the people of the Scripture before you, if you have given them their DOWRY/WAGES (ujurahunna), protected, chaste, and not seeking to take lovers.
3351 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their DOWRY/WAGES (ujurahunna)
6011 And there is no sin upon you to marry them, if you have paid their DOWRY/WAGES (ujurahunna) to them
"Ujurahunna" meaning "their dowers/wages" is consistently and exclusively used in the Quran for what a man gives a woman as a marriage portion in a normal marriage. This textual consistency leave one in no doubt that "saduqatihina" in verse 44 does not carry the meaning "their dowers/wages" but means "their inheritance". This is proved when we look at the context from 41 to 413, In this whole first part of chapter 4, Allah is talking about "inheritance".
The word "saduqatihinna" doesn't carry the meaning of "inheritance". If you look at all the occurences of the word "sadaqat" in the great reading, then you will see that it has the meaning of giving charity/aid out of one's OWN money (for example see 9103). The 'inheritence" of the orphans is described as "amwalahum" (their money) in 42. Moreover, in 42 we are clearly told NOT TO CONSUME the moneys of the orphans no matter what. On the other hand, in 44 we are told to consume what the women share with us of the "sadaqat". This is more in line with the "nisaa" being widows who we give aid/charity too as opposed to orphans who we give their OWN rightful inheritance money to.
- In the inheritance signs, there is a mysterious absence of the possibility of two or more wives' share of inheritance when their husband dies, after carrying out the will. Allah mentioned the possibility of two or more daughters and two or more sisters but not two or more wives, after carrying out the will. Why did Allah leave out such an important possibility ? I agree that the situation would not be common but still it is important, unless a wife is not as important as a sister or a daughter !
There are so many possibilities left out of the inharitance signs. They are merely guidelines. This is why we are told that those guidelines only apply for whatever is remaining (if anything) after execution of a will or paying off debts. Therefore, things like how much does a grand daughter take if her grandfather died and her father was already dead are not spelled out. Would she take her father's complete share despite her being female or would she take half her uncles' share or nothing at all? This is why it is important to have a will.
If "ankihoo" in 43 is translated to "marry off" instead, then the meaning fits PLUS then I do not see any inconsistencies or contradictions anywhere else. For it to be "marry off", "orphans" and "women" in 43 do not have to be the same entities, for Allah is telling the guardian/carer to "marry off" the mothers of the orphans. Then 4127 will also be translated as talking about "marrying them off" and then everything fits in harmony. Even though the mothers of the orphans are mohsanaat (mature women), they can still be "married off" by the guardian/carer WITH THEIR CONSENT, which is exactly what 43 is saying. "With their consent/permission" is the key here.
Why would fully mature widows need a guardian to "marry them off"? There is no indication that mature women (whether widows or not) even need their parent's permission. Also, who is that guardian who guards mutiple widows?
I think that 42-3 provide the explanation of 4127. In 4127, the word "tanki7oo" cannot mean marry-off. The people in 4127 don't want to give the orphans of the widowed women what was written for them (i.e. their inheritance). An example of this would be a relative of the deceased who doesn't want to give the orphans their dues. In such a case, why would that relative of the deceased desire to or even have any say whatsoever in "marrying-off" the widow of his relative? On the contrary, it seems that he would desire to marry her in order to try to keep the money in the family and attempt to consume the orphan's inheritance (his original motivation in 4127).
It was a Jewish custom for a widow to marry a male relative (usually the brother) of her late husband. Thus, traditionally the widow herself was considered a kind of "inheritance". This is what 4127 and 42-3 are putting an end to.
I totally agree that we should always fit our understanding to what The God says in the great reading rather than the other way around. We should also use the great reading as an actual guide in our lives and not as a theoretical book. So our understanding of it should help us be guided in real-life scenarios. I hope that you can appreciate why I still see that there are some logical problems with the "marry-off' interpretation.
Peace and best wishes,
Ayman
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For centuaries women were bound to the house because of verse 3333 which was taken out of context, or more precisely, because of an error in who the addressees are.
I think we are having the same problem here. If we read verses 423 and 424 as addressing the same group, we find a problem with (wal mu7Sanaat) being one of the prohibited to marry. That's why the interpreters suggested (married women) a meaning for this term to qualify with the prohibition; but then we find ourselves facing another problem illa ma malakat aymanukum, which will suggest that mamalakat aymanukum is a sub-category of mu7Sanat, and therefore there is a group of married women who could be married.
My idea is that the goup addressed in verse 423, i.e the general public, is different from the group addressed in 424, a speical category of people.
How about people who cannot/do not desire sex? Sex in marriage, albeit important, is not everything, nor is it marriage as described by Allah (sakeena) company, safety, security, friendship..etc. Thus, marriage without sex is a relation of (milku yameen) with each other, where at least one of the couple does not/wont have sex. Verse 425 tells us that this (ma malakat aymanukum) will have 50% of the punishment of (mu7Sanat those who can/desire to have sex), because he/she does not and will not get sex in this marriage, so the punishment is reduced.
Verse 424 thus reads as ("and to those who cant/wont have sex" it is prohibited to marry the mu7Sanat "potent" unless in a relation of milku yameen..).
As for verses 244/23, interpreting mu7Sanat as married or "chaste" has its problems it would mean that slandering the unmarried is not punishable; and since all women are chaste untill proven otherwise, this meaning is redundant. But if we put it as someone who is (impotent in the very general meaning), this person is naturally slanderproof, and can easily prove their innocence (like accusing someone who is alcohol-allergic with being drunk).
I would very much like to read your input in this, maybe we will finally understand what mu7San is and who milkul yameen are
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The Connection of 43 and 4127
Peace All
4 3 If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans marry women of your choice two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them) then only one or that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable to prevent you from doing injustice.
There has been a lot of confusion about verse 43 whether it is referring to orphans or their mothers or generally about women or 2 different sets of people.
I personally think an orphan is a person without both parents , not mature enough to look after him/her or his/her property/wealth ( if he has any )and in certain circumstances assigned to a Guardian until the orphan comes of age.
When we start the chapter 4 (Nisa/women) the Quraan advises us to keep our duty to Allah first, second it advises us to give respect to our mothers who should be the most important to us among women, third female orphans and female children. Thereafter (although not in a clear order of importance) the women we are to marry, our wives, and then also daughters and sisters (when it comes to share of inheritance) are mentioned. This reflects the importance Quraan places on the most vulnerable in the society. The Quraan going by the level of priority it gives to female orphans in the chapter concerning women, the first rule/advise with regard to marriage (since marriage is one of the important relationships with women) is on marrying female orphans.
Explanation to 43
Allah knew that there will be confusion for some in understanding verse 43, so He revealed the verse 4127 as an explanation of 43.
4127
Yusuf Ali They ask thy instruction concerning the women. Say Allah doth instruct you about them and (remember) what hath been rehearsed unto you in the Book concerning the orphans of women to whom ye give not the portions prescribed/ that which is ordained for them and yet whom ye desire to marry as also concerning the children who are weak and oppressed that ye stand firm for justice to orphans. There is not a good deed which ye do but Allah is well-acquainted therewith.
The verse 4127 starts by referring to people asking the prophet about women. For which he is instructed to say ?(REMEMBER) WHAT HATH BEEN REHEARSED UNTO YOU IN THE BOOK? seems to indicate a previously revealed verse which is ?CONCERNING THE ORPHANS OF WOMEN TO WHOM YOU GIVE NOT WHAT IS DECREED TO THEM YET WHOM YOU WISH TO MARRY?. If we look at the Quraan we can safely assume this is pointing to verse 43 and ?ALSO CONCERNING CHILDREN WHO ARE WEAK?.? (4127) is referring to 45 and ?YOU STAND FIRM FOR JUSTICE TO ORPHANS? is to 46 and all other verses which refer to rights of orphans.
In that case 43 is advising people not to marry orphans if they fear that they can not deal justly with the orphan?s property since it is easy for a person/guardian to mix or manipulate an orphan?s property by marrying her and thereby not giving her what is prescribed for her. In that case that person is advised to marry other women of his choice.
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Mystery of MohSanat and MuhSinin
Peace All
AhSanat
Mary is described as AhSanat in 2191 and 6612 to mean committed to the temple or Gods service. Mary?s mother committed/devoted her child to the temple in 335 (Muharrar ~ freed from all worldly affairs and specially dedicated to Allah's service)2191 Wal lati ahsanat farjaha_ fanafakna_ fiha_ mir ru_hina_ wa ja'alna_ha_ wab naha_ a_yatal lil'a_lamin
6612 Wa maryamab nata imra_nal latu ahsanat farjaha_ fanafahna_ fihi mir ru_hina_ wa sad daqat bikalima_ti rab iha_ wa kutubihi wa ka_nat minal qa_nitin
Mohsanat/Muhsanat means committed or devoted to something or someone. In the following verses it means committed through marriage. It?s the clever and meaningful use of the word which confused all of us for so long and there are no contradictions.
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Al yauma uhilla lakumut tayyiba_t(u), wa ta'a_mul lazina u_tul kita_ba hillul lakum, wa ta'a_mukum hillul lahum, wal muhsana_tu minal mu'mina_ti wal muhsana_tu minal lazina a_tul kita_ba min qablikum iza_a a_taitumuhunna uju_rahunna muhsinina gaira musa_fihina wa la_ muttakhizi akhda_n(in), wa may yakfur bil ima_ni fa qad habita 'amaluh(u_), wa huwa fil a _khirati minal kha_sirin(a).
This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. Lawful to you are believing women committed (to you) and women committed (to you) among the people of the book revealed before your time when ye give them their due dowers and desiring commitment not lewdness nor secret intrigues. If anyone rejects faith fruitless is his work and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
4 24
Wal muhsana_tu minan nisa_'i illa_ ma_ malakat aima_nukum, kita_balla_hi 'alaikum, wa uhilla lakum ma_ wara_'a za_likum an tabtagu_ bi amwa_likum muhisinan gaira musa_fihin(a), famastamta'tum bihi minhunna fa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna faridah(tan), wa la_ juna_ha 'alaikum fima_ tara_daitum bihi mim ba'dil faridah(ti), innalla_ha ka_na'aliman hakima_(n).Also (prohibited to you are) women committed (committed to other men/married to other men) except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring commitment not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.
In this verse minan nisa is used to convey no married woman is allowed either believing or from the people of the book.
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Wal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_ti sum ma lam yatu_ bi arba'ati suhada_ a faj lidu_hum sama_nina jaldataw wa la_ taqbalu_ lahum saha_datan abada_ wa ula_ ika humul fa_siqu_n
And those who launch a charge against a committed woman (any married believing woman or married woman from the people of the book) and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegation) flog them with eighty stripes and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors
24 23
In nal lazina yarmu_nal muhsana_til ga_fila_til mumina_ti luinu_ fid dun ya_ wal a_hirah wa lahum aza_bun azim
Those who slander believing committed woman and also indiscreet are cursed in this life and in the Hereafter for them is a grievous Penalty
4 25
Wa mal lam yastati' minkum taulan ay yankihal muhsana_til mu'mina_ti famimma_ malakat aima_nukum min fataya_tikumul mu'mina_t(i), walla_ a'lamu bi ima_nikum, ba'dukum mim ba'd(in), fankihu_hunna bi izni ahlihinna wa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna bil ma'ru_fi muhsana_tin gaira musa_fiha_tiw wa la_ muttakhiza_ti akhda_n(in), fa iza_ uhsinna fa in ataina bi fa_hisyatin fa 'alaihinna nisfu ma_ 'alal muhsana_ti minal 'aza_b(i), za_lika liman khasyiyal'anata minkum, wa anbiru_ khairul lakum, walla_hu gafu_rur rahim(un).If any of you have not the means wherewith to marry believing women committed (to you) they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess and Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another wed them with the leave of their owners and give them their dowers according to what is reasonable they be committed not lustful nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock if they fall into shame their punishment is half that for committed women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practice self-restraint and Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.
This is my understanding of the Quraan , your input will help me see clearly.
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Peace,
Samia, interresting approach, but every psychologist would say that a person who doesn't want sex, is or in the wrong relationship or has a psychological unbalance. So the idea of 'how many people are out there not wanting sex' are few, and the ones who do not want sex 90% of them fall under my above mentioned categories. So i don't really believe that is the right approach.
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Peace Arnold
You mentioned those who do not want to have sex, and I agree. What about those who can't have sex? That could be primary (congenital) or secondary to an ailment. It is an important category that cannot be ignored. If we say at least 25% of people fall within this defintion (and I wont be exagerating), then I expect the quraan to cater for them and propose a solution for them.
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Peace,
I believe still that mohsanat refers to self-protected ot protected by a guardian, Ayman already approached those verses in a satisfying way. As for malakat aymanukum, the translation says enough, the people you have responsibility/authority/guardianship over, so this can apply somebodies children below 18, wife, orphans, servants put under your protection and so on. But i'm always open to new ideas. But the no-sex people doesn't fit with a lot of verses.
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Peace All
To be fair by Ayman and more importantly to make sure that we are arriving at the truth we must put Aymans theory to the test. Let us divide Aymans theory in to 4.
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What can be directly taken from the Quran
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What can be inferred from the Quraan i.e. indirectly
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What is not in the Quraan. (Aymans input /assumptions into forming the theory).
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What are the contradictions?
Also, I have some questions
According to 425 Ma Malakat Aymanakum consists of believers as well as non believers
If Ma Malakat Aymanakum means ''protected by an oath of engagement / girls you got engaged to??, how is it possible for some one to get engaged to a non believer in the first place? 425 according to Ayman should be translated as ''believing among the girls you got engaged''Important
An orphan is an orphan and a young girl protected by parents is a young girl protected by parents. Even If we accept Aymans theory on the oath, only when the oath is pronounced these 2 categories become Ma Malakat Aymanakum to a man and not before. Example in the Quraan all are addressed as women and only when you marry them they are addressed as wives.How do you dissolve the oath of engagement? Why no rules. What are the limits of contact? How long the engagement 1 day to any no of years?
Can Aymans theory be applied to marriage with People of the Book as mentioned in 55. i.e. Should we be engaged to them before getting married if they are parent protected
Quote Ayman
"Why would fully mature widows need a guardian to "marry them off"? There is no indication that mature women (whether widows or not) even need their parent's permission"
In that case why does a ?fully mature widows? need a Guardian to look after her child/children?s property or money? Why is a guardian necessary when the mother
is living?( Most verses deal with orphan?s property which is being looked after by the guardian). And is the mother not fit enough to look after her children?s wealth.
And until when does the guardian have to keep the wealth. Is it till the widow gets married again or the orphan attends marriageable age.?Mother of the orphans?? There is no indication in the Quraan about the mother of the orphans. The Quraan identifies clearly and the Quraan is careful about whom it addresses. (Believing women, Women from the people of the book, married women).
(4127 clarifies 43 by explaining it is the orphan it is referring to)Is not the "mother of the orphans? a feel good theory invented by people who do not want to admit the Quraan allows polygamy?
True, for the definition of orphans some dictionaries can say both parents or maybe one parent. But a dictionary?s purpose is to have as many numbers of meanings to a word. The exact meaning plus other meanings, also the most remote meaning/s. That is how a dictionary survives. But can all those meanings be applied to the Quraan( and without contradiction).
The mother of the orphans. In that case, she is a widow with a child or children, what about her needs and rights -is not a woman without a husband with one or few
Children not in a bad situation as her children or maybe worse.In this circumstances does the widow give the child?s property, probably the orphans
portion of his fathers inheritance, for someone else to guard or she uses it to look after the child.To the mother is her own fatherless child an orphan.
The guardian does not have to be always richer than the orphan (46), it is a
matter of , the orphan not having anyone(including his mother) to take care of his property plus he is too young to take care of it himself.Why does the orphan need in writing from the guardian to set him free. (2433)
If you adopt someone you become the adopted father/mother and the child is adopted son/daughter. So why can not the adopted father and son not be in the same level (302.
And some situations the orphan can be from a better family and with a rich inheritance and richer than the guardian then will this situation contrary to1671 .
Some people leave all their wealth to their adopted children
According to you, the verse 44 is about giving charity to a widow (or orphans
Mother). But why should she share the charity given to her. Charity is given, only if she is poor .Have you seen some body giving a poor person charity and then sharing it with them.If you can marry only 2, 3, 4 widows, is it a condition the widow should have a child or children to be qualified. Are we allowed to marry widows 2 or 3 or 4 without children.
How did the orphans money end up with the guardian/or whoever, putting himself in that position and not releasing it to the widow who needs to take care of the orphan.
The orphans mentioned in 46 do they have their mothers living or they do not have both parents.
According to Ayman ?lifuru_jihim ha_fizu_n? in verses 23-5 and 70 -29 is talking about
kissing and holding hands. Please see what kind of prohibitions or deeds it is in the midst of by reading the verses preceding and after. Are we to rush to give interpretations to the Quraan.How do you conclude that 2235 is not talking about women in general whom we like to get married ("cherish them in your hearts"2235) but only the ones we got engaged.
When you get engaged, you have already offered to marry. Why is the verse is talking about "no blame on you if ye make an offer of betrothal or hold it in your hearts" 2235. What is there to hold in your heart even after getting engaged?
Why ?secret meeting only for a word honorable? 2235, if they can kiss and do "lifuru_jihim ha_fizu" (235, 7029) since they do not have to guard their "modesty" with engaged girls.
According to Ayman the Quraan groups the orphans and engaged girls together and calls them Ma Malakat Aymanakum . What are the similarities between the 2 groups other than assuming that an oath is involved, to become a guardian for an orphan and to become engaged? Both these oaths are not mentioned in the Quraan.
If I have attributed any views to Ayman which he does not share it is out mistake but I guess all questions are worth an answer.
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Peace all,
Since my last post above, after a lot of deliberation, discussion and research on this topic, I have arrived at a new understanding that polygyny is allowed by The God by virtue of it not being forbidden in the qur'aan. In 423 The God is acknowledging the presence of polygyny by forbidding polygyny with 2 sisters, but does not forbid polygyny with other women, hence permitting polygyny with women other than sisters.
Having said that I still have the understanding that 43 is not about polygyny but is about marrying off the mothers of orphans in groups. The "saduqatihinna" in 44 would be a gift/aid/charity given to the mothers of the orphans when they are married off, and there is no harm if they voluntarily give the gift back due to probably getting married to a rich man.
Even if 43 talks about polygyny, the mothers of the orphans are to be married in a group at the same time, with a maximum of 4 at the same time.
The limit of wives in polygyny would be 4 not because of 43, but because of definition of zina according to the qur'aan. Please see the following link for definition of zina
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5843.msg89825#msg89825
So if four people witnessed a MARRIED man and woman having intercourse, then the man and woman ARE a "zani" and "zaniyah", even though they are MARRIED.
Thus the limit in a polygynous relationship has to be 4 wives because if a man has 5 wives then it will become zina because then there will be 4 witnesses to the intercourse between the husband and the 5th wife.
I tend to agree with brother warner's understanding of "mohsanat" meaning committed women, which will include both married women (committed to someone else) and the one who a man is engaged to (committed to that man). In that case it will be forbidden for a man to marry a committed woman according to 424 unless she is committed to that man by oath of engagement. According to this definition, a widow will not be classified as "mohsanat" as she is not committed to anyone, therefore it will not be necessary to have oath of engagement when marrying the mothers of orphans per 43. Only those people will be punished who slander committed women per 244.
Brother Ayman, what do you think about this understanding of "mohsanat" being committed women ?
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I tend to agree with brother warner's understanding of "mohsanat" meaning committed women, which will include both married women (committed to someone else) and the one who a man is engaged to (committed to that man). In that case it will be forbidden for a man to marry a committed woman according to 424 unless she is committed to that man by oath of engagement. According to this definition, a widow will not be classified as "mohsanat" as she is not committed to anyone, therefore it will not be necessary to have oath of engagement when marrying the mothers of orphans per 43. Only those people will be punished who slander committed women per 244.
Take the Prophet's single daughters during his lifetime and his wives after his death. They were not committed, as you put it, to anyone in the form of engagement or marriage. Does that mean the people who slandered against them would go away with it?
I tend to believe that all believing women are mosanat, including the ones whom your oaths possess (ma malakat ayman ukum). So the Progressive Muslims translation of 244 seems to be wrong
"And those who accuse the independent women (mohsanat) and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers."
It can be corrected like this
"And those who accuse the believing women (mohsanat) and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers."
The difference between the independent mohsanat and the mohsanat whom your oaths posses is in the way the decisions concernig their committment are made. Independent mohsanat such as widows can make their own decisions whereas those whom your oaths possess have to ask you for permission.
424 is about the direct and indirect ways men can propose to believing women rather than which women they are not allowed to marry.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Peace brother Hasan,
I tend to believe that all believing women are mosanat, including the ones whom your oaths possess (ma malakat ayman ukum).
Believing women are called "muminat" in al-qur'aan. Please consider the following verse
425 Waman lam yastatiaa minkum tawlan an yankiha almuhsanati almuminati famin ma malakat aymanukum min fatayatikumu almuminati
Here the usage of the phrase "almuhsanati almuminati" indicates that all believing women are "muminat" and that "muhsanat" have to be a subset of "muminat". Similarly "fatayatikumu almuminati" indicates that "fatayat" is a subset of "muminat". Thus "muhsanat" cannot be ALL believing women because then the phrase "almuhsanati almuminati" would be redundant and not make any sense.
That is why, in my understanding, "muhsanat" possibly means committed women or women protected by commitment and "ma malakat aymanukum" would be a subset of "muhsanat", while "muhsanat" would be a subset of "muminat".
IMHO slandering a committed woman would be much more dangerous than slandering an uncommitted woman because of the resultant effects on marriage or engagement and thus slander of committed women is dealt with much more severely.
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Believing women are called "muminat" in al-qur'aan. Please consider the following verse
425 Waman lam yastatiaa minkum tawlan an yankiha almuhsanati almuminati famin ma malakat aymanukum min fatayatikumu almuminati
Here the usage of the phrase "almuhsanati almuminati" indicates that all believing women are "muminat" and that "muhsanat" have to be a subset of "muminat". Similarly "fatayatikumu almuminati" indicates that "fatayat" is a subset of "muminat". Thus "muhsanat" cannot be ALL believing women because then the phrase "almuhsanati almuminati" would be redundant and not make any sense.
No. It is clear that muhsanat here are presented as an alternative to the ones whom your oaths possess, who are dependent on you; therefore muhsanat are independent.
The verse reads like this
And as for those of you who are not in a position to marry (independent) muhsanat, let them marry from among those young (muhsanat) whom your oaths possess.
There is no redundancy at all.
That is why, in my understanding, "muhsanat" possibly means committed women or women protected by commitment and "ma malakat aymanukum" would be a subset of "muhsanat", while "muhsanat" would be a subset of "muminat".
Yes, "ma malakat ayman ukum" are a subset of muhsanat; that is, they also are muhsanat, which means protected. Islam protects all women by a certain means, includuing the ones whom your oaths posses.
In 424 and 25 muhsanat are independent, so they protect themselves; whereas "ma malakat ayman ukum" are dependent on you, so it is you who protect them.
However, muhsanat are not a subset but the very muminat themselves.
Believing women are called "muminat" in al-qur'aan (in 424, 25)
They are synonyms like the descriptive words in Al-Ahzab 35
Allazeena muminat (3335)
..............kaanitat truly devout women
..............saadikat women who are true to their word
..............saabirat women who are patient in adversity
..............haashi?at women who humble themselves
..............mutasaddikat women who give in charity
..............saaimat self-denying women
..............haafezati furuj ahunna women who guard their private partsKaanitat, saadikat, saabirat haashi?at, mutasaddikat, saaimat... are all muminat; and so are muhsanat as they protect their chastity by, for example, guarding their private parts.
IMHO slandering a committed woman would be much more dangerous than slandering an uncommitted woman because of the resultant effects on marriage or engagement and thus slander of committed women is dealt with much more severely.
Do you mean that slanderers against the Prophet?s single daughters would be dealt with less severely than slanderers against his wives? Will you please support this opinion with verses from the Quran.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
They are synonyms like the descriptive words in Al-Ahzab 35
Allazeena muminat (3335)
..............kaanitat truly devout women
..............saadikat women who are true to their word
..............saabirat women who are patient in adversity
..............haashi?at women who humble themselves
..............mutasaddikat women who give in charity
..............saaimat self-denying women
..............haafezati furuj ahunna women who guard their private partsKaanitat, saadikat, saabirat haashi?at, mutasaddikat, saaimat... are all muminat; and so are muhsanat as they protect their chastity by, for example, guarding their private parts.
Saaimat are women who fast or "observe sawn" commanded by God.
Peace. Myr. -
Peace brother Hasan,
I am a bit confused by your two posts.
This is what you wrote in your first post
I tend to believe that all believing women are mosanat, including the ones whom your oaths possess (ma malakat ayman ukum). So the Progressive Muslims translation of 244 seems to be wrong
"And those who accuse the independent women (mohsanat) and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers."
It can be corrected like this
"And those who accuse the believing women (mohsanat) and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers."
Here according to you "muhsanat" = ALL believing women and not independent women
In your second post here is what you wrote
No. It is clear that muhsanat here are presented as an alternative to the ones whom your oaths possess, who are dependent on you; therefore muhsanat are independent.
In 424 and 25 muhsanat are independent, so they protect themselves; whereas "ma malakat ayman ukum" are dependent on you, so it is you who protect them.
Here according to you "mohsanat" are only the independent ones and not ALL believing women.
Brother you are contradicting yourself.
Furthermore, you wrote in your second post
And as for those of you who are not in a position to marry (independent) muhsanat, let them marry from among those young (muhsanat) whom your oaths possess.
Here the second underlined word should read "fatayat" and not "muhsanat".
Coming back to your following quote
No. It is clear that muhsanat here are presented as an alternative to the ones whom your oaths possess, who are dependent on you; therefore muhsanat are independent.
"Muhsanat" in 425 are not presented as alternative to just "ma malakat aymanukum" but to "ma malakat aymanukum min fatayatikumu almuminati"
The "ma malakat aymanukum" discussed in 424 are a subset of "muhsanat", so the "ma malakat aymanukum" in 424 are the "muhsanat" "ma malakat aymanukum" and the "ma malakat aymanukum" in 425 are subset of "fatayat", so the "ma malakat aymanukum" in 425 are the "fatayat" "ma malakat aymanukum".
Thus "ma malakat aymanukum" can be from the "muhsanat" or the "fatayat".
After discussion with a learned member of the forum, I have realized that "almuhsanati almuminati" means believing muhsanat, and not muhsanat of/from the muminat. Thus I revise my understanding as follows
Considering the phrases "almuhsanati almuminati" and "fatayatikumu almuminati" in 425, it is clear that both muhsanat and fatayat are subsets of muminat. However by considering 55, it is clear that all muhsanat are not necessarily muminat, and there could be "muhsanat" who are from other than "muminat", for example muhsanat from the people of the book.
55 ......................and the "muhsanat" from the believing women, and the "muhsanat" from the people of the Scripture before you....................
"Fatayat" in 425 are obviously parent-protected or dependent on parents. The "ma malakat aymanukum" in 425, therefore, refers to those parent-protected women with whom one has oath of engagement. The "ma malakat aymanukum" in 424, however, refers to those "muhsanat" with whom one has oath of engagement.
Thus my revised understanding of "muhsanat" is "women self-protected by commitment". Thus "muhsanat" would include the women self-protected by commitment to marriage (married women) or women self-protected by commitment to engagement, and would exclude the widows and the independent women who are neither married nor engaged.
Let us consider 244 now
244 And those who accuse the "muhsanat" and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers.
Obviously the "fatayat" is not included in the "muhsanat" in this verse. So let me ask you a question
Is it ok then to slander "fatayat" or parent-protected/parent dependent women ?
Peace
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Saaimat are women who fast or "observe sawn" commanded by God.
Peace, Myr. I may agree with you.
The translation of saaimat as "self-denying women" belongs to Muhammad Asad, who provides an explanation as follows
The term saa?im, usually rendered as "fasting", has here its primary connotation of "one who abstains (from anything)" or "denies to himself (anything)" cf. 1926, where the noun sawm denotes "abstinence from speech". (The Message of THE QUR?AN)
I am a bit confused by your two posts.
Please excuse me for confusing you. However, I am very sure about my understanding of muhsanat and see that your view is now basically the same as mine. There is no need on my part to make a fuss.
Thank you and peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Salaam all
There have been many posts on this thread since I last visited it. I will briefly question some notions that drew my attention
First there is a notion of makeing subets mu7Sanaat mu'minaat, fatayatukuk almu'minaat, maa malakat aymanukum..etc. It is like saying English man man is a subset of English. I do not see any subsets here. The underlying condition could be "they have to be mu'mins, not just muslims).
Another thing is that all posts discuss (mu7Sanaat and maa malakat aymaanukum) as if it pertains to women only. Remember that men can also be (mu7Saneen & maa malakat aymanuhunna), so any attempt to explain these terms should take "male mu7Sans and maa malakat al-aymaan) into consideration.From Tanveer's
I have arrived at a new understanding that polygyny is allowed by The God by virtue of it not being forbidden in the qur'aan. In 423 The God is acknowledging the presence of polygyny by forbidding polygyny with 2 sisters, but does not forbid polygyny with other women, hence permitting polygyny with women other than sisters.
Polygamy is restricted as per verse 43. There is no contradiction with verse 423. It is simply that if the mother of orphans is your sister-in-law (your wife's sister) you cannot marry her. No more permission for polygamy other than what is already stated in 43.
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Peace sister Samia,
Thank you for sharing your understanding. The only problem that I see with your understanding at this point is as follows
No more permission for polygamy other than what is already stated in 43.
We have to be careful in attributing something to Allah that which He never said.
Where does it say in the Qur'aan that no more permission for polygamy other than what is already stated in 43 ?
The only way that could have been true is if Allah had said somewhere in the Qur'aan something similar to "it is forbidden for you to marry more than one other than what is being recited in the scripture" or "do not marry more than one other than what is already recited in the scripture".
To my knowledge, nowhere in al-qur'aan does Allah say that.
Peace
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I understand that there are verses in the Quran which prohibits polygamy.
For example 423 says that you are forbidden... to have two sisters at one and the same time -hurrimat alaikum... antajma'u baina'l uhtain-, which is polygamy.
Let me repeat for emphasis
You are allowed to have sisters as your wife one at a time because it is monogamy, bu you are forbidden to have sisters as your wives at one and the same time because it is polygamy.
And 2432 orders you to marry off the single from among you -Wa ankehu'l ayama minkum. It is definite that the moment you marry off a single person -ayyem- from among you, that person's state changes from single to married; therefore you can not marry him off again.
God orders you to marry off your single relatives only; He does not order you to marry off the ones who are already married.
That is definitely prohibition of polygamy.
Finally, verse 3352 forbids the Prophet from taking wife upon wife, which is in actuality prohibition of polygamy because without taking wife upon wife polygamy is impossible.
Now the question is is it permitted for the Muslims to take wife upon wife in spite of the fact that God prohibited it for the prophet by revealing 3352 and the prohet obeyed it from then on to the end of his life.
True Muslims have to think.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Peace brother Hasan, all,
I understand that there are verses in the Quran which prohibits polygamy.
For example 423 says that you are forbidden... to have two sisters at one and the same time -hurrimat alaikum... antajma'u baina'l uhtain-, which is polygamy.
Let me repeat for emphasis
You are allowed to have sisters as your wife one at a time because it is monogamy, bu you are forbidden to have sisters as your wives at one and the same time because it is polygamy.
There are only two verses that forbid certain types of polygamy in al-qur'aan. In 423 polygyny with 2 sisters is forbidden and in 424 it is forbidden to marry muhsanat which includes married women thus forbidding polyandry. There is no verse that forbids polygyny with non-sisters. In 423 it says " it is forbidden to have 2 sisters together" and not "it is forbidden to have 2 women together". Please do not attribute something to Allah what He never said in al-qur'aan.
And 2432 orders you to marry off the single from among you -Wa ankehu'l ayama minkum. It is definite that the moment you marry off a single person -ayyem- from among you, that person's state changes from single to married; therefore you can not marry him off again.
God orders you to marry off your single relatives only; He does not order you to marry off the ones who are already married.
That is definitely prohibition of polygamy.
Firstly, only those can be "married off" who are still dependent. How can someone "marry off" an independant or self-protected man ? The wording "marry off" implies marrying off DEPENDENT singles. So this does not apply to independent or self-protected men who may be married.
Secondly, if this advice applies to independent or self-protected married men in addition to the dependent single men, thereby not allowing independent or self-protected married men to have more than one wife, then it would contradict with 43 which is usually translated to allow polygyny with mothers of the orphans.
I would understand 2432 as not allowing dependent men to have polygyny, and this would not be applicable to independent/self-protected men who are single or married. Thus this verse does not prohibit polygyny for independent/self-protected married men.
Finally, verse 3352 forbids the Prophet from taking wife upon wife, which is in actuality prohibition of polygamy because without taking wife upon wife polygamy is impossible.
Now the question is is it permitted for the Muslims to take wife upon wife in spite of the fact that God prohibited it for the prophet by revealing 3352 and the prohet obeyed it from then on to the end of his life.
Brother Hasan, you are creating contradiction in al-qur'aan. 3352 is an order ONLY for the Prophet and not applicable to other believers otherwise it would contradict with the permission given to believers in general to exchange wives in 420
420 And if you wish to replace one wife instead of another, and you have given one of them a large amount, then do not take anything from it. Would you take it by falsehood while it is clearly a sin?
This permission was taken away ONLY for the Prophet by 3352.
Peace