A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23

arnoldyasin

Peace,

I believe still that mohsanat refers to self-protected ot protected by a guardian, Ayman already approached those verses in a satisfying way. As for malakat aymanukum, the translation says enough, the people you have responsibility/authority/guardianship over, so this can apply somebodies children below 18, wife, orphans, servants put under your protection and so on. But i'm always open to new ideas. But the no-sex people doesn't fit with a lot of verses.

warner

Peace All

To be fair by Ayman and more importantly to make sure that we are arriving at the truth we must put Aymans theory to the test. Let us divide Aymans theory in to 4.

What can be directly taken from the Quran
What can be inferred from the Quraan i.e. indirectly
What is not in the Quraan. (Aymans input /assumptions into forming the theory).
What are the contradictions?

Also, I have some questions

According to 425 Ma Malakat Aymanakum consists of believers as well as non believers
If Ma Malakat Aymanakum means ''protected by an oath of engagement / girls you got engaged to??, how is it possible for some one to get engaged to a non believer in the first place? 425 according to Ayman should be translated as ''believing among the girls you got engaged''

Important
An orphan is an orphan and a young girl protected by parents is a young girl protected by parents. Even If we accept Aymans theory on the oath, only when the oath is pronounced these 2 categories become Ma Malakat Aymanakum to a man and not before. Example in the Quraan all are addressed as women and only when you marry them they are addressed as wives.

How do you dissolve the oath of engagement? Why no rules. What are the limits of contact? How long the engagement 1 day to any no of years?

Can Aymans theory be applied to marriage with People of the Book as mentioned in 55. i.e. Should we be engaged to them before getting married if they are parent protected

Quote Ayman

"Why would fully mature widows need a guardian to "marry them off"? There is no indication that mature women (whether widows or not) even need their parent's permission"

In that case why does a ?fully mature widows? need a Guardian to look after her child/children?s property or money? Why is a guardian necessary when the mother
is living?( Most verses deal with orphan?s property which is being looked after by the guardian). And is the mother not fit enough to look after her children?s wealth.
And until when does the guardian have to keep the wealth. Is it till the widow gets married again or the orphan attends marriageable age.

?Mother of the orphans?? There is no indication in the Quraan about the mother of the orphans. The Quraan identifies clearly and the Quraan is careful about whom it addresses. (Believing women, Women from the people of the book, married women).
(4127 clarifies 43 by explaining it is the orphan it is referring to)

Is not the "mother of the orphans? a feel good theory invented by people who do not want to admit the Quraan allows polygamy?

True, for the definition of orphans some dictionaries can say both parents or maybe one parent. But a dictionary?s purpose is to have as many numbers of meanings to a word. The exact meaning plus other meanings, also the most remote meaning/s. That is how a dictionary survives. But can all those meanings be applied to the Quraan( and without contradiction).

The mother of the orphans. In that case, she is a widow with a child or children, what about her needs and rights -is not a woman without a husband with one or few
Children not in a bad situation as her children or maybe worse.

In this circumstances does the widow give the child?s property, probably the orphans
portion of his fathers inheritance, for someone else to guard or she uses it to look after the child.

To the mother is her own fatherless child an orphan.

The guardian does not have to be always richer than the orphan (46), it is a
matter of , the orphan not having anyone(including his mother) to take care of his property plus he is too young to take care of it himself.

Why does the orphan need in writing from the guardian to set him free. (2433)

If you adopt someone you become the adopted father/mother and the child is adopted son/daughter. So why can not the adopted father and son not be in the same level (302.

And some situations the orphan can be from a better family and with a rich inheritance and richer than the guardian then will this situation contrary to1671 .

Some people leave all their wealth to their adopted children

According to you, the verse 44 is about giving charity to a widow (or orphans
Mother). But why should she share the charity given to her. Charity is given, only if she is poor .Have you seen some body giving a poor person charity and then sharing it with them.

If you can marry only 2, 3, 4 widows, is it a condition the widow should have a child or children to be qualified. Are we allowed to marry widows 2 or 3 or 4 without children.

How did the orphans money end up with the guardian/or whoever, putting himself in that position and not releasing it to the widow who needs to take care of the orphan.

The orphans mentioned in 46 do they have their mothers living or they do not have both parents.

According to Ayman ?lifuru_jihim ha_fizu_n? in verses 23-5 and 70 -29 is talking about
kissing and holding hands. Please see what kind of prohibitions or deeds it is in the midst of by reading the verses preceding and after. Are we to rush to give interpretations to the Quraan.

How do you conclude that 2235 is not talking about women in general whom we like to get married ("cherish them in your hearts"2235) but only the ones we got engaged.

When you get engaged, you have already offered to marry. Why is the verse is talking about "no blame on you if ye make an offer of betrothal or hold it in your hearts" 2235. What is there to hold in your heart even after getting engaged?

Why ?secret meeting only for a word honorable? 2235, if they can kiss and do "lifuru_jihim ha_fizu" (235, 7029) since they do not have to guard their "modesty" with engaged girls.

According to Ayman the Quraan groups the orphans and engaged girls together and calls them Ma Malakat Aymanakum . What are the similarities between the 2 groups other than assuming that an oath is involved, to become a guardian for an orphan and to become engaged? Both these oaths are not mentioned in the Quraan.

If I have attributed any views to Ayman which he does not share it is out mistake but I guess all questions are worth an answer.

unknownuser

Peace all,

Since my last post above, after a lot of deliberation, discussion and research on this topic, I have arrived at a new understanding that polygyny is allowed by The God by virtue of it not being forbidden in the qur'aan. In 423 The God is acknowledging the presence of polygyny by forbidding polygyny with 2 sisters, but does not forbid polygyny with other women, hence permitting polygyny with women other than sisters.

Having said that I still have the understanding that 43 is not about polygyny but is about marrying off the mothers of orphans in groups. The "saduqatihinna" in 44 would be a gift/aid/charity given to the mothers of the orphans when they are married off, and there is no harm if they voluntarily give the gift back due to probably getting married to a rich man.

Even if 43 talks about polygyny, the mothers of the orphans are to be married in a group at the same time, with a maximum of 4 at the same time.

The limit of wives in polygyny would be 4 not because of 43, but because of definition of zina according to the qur'aan. Please see the following link for definition of zina

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5843.msg89825#msg89825

So if four people witnessed a MARRIED man and woman having intercourse, then the man and woman ARE a "zani" and "zaniyah", even though they are MARRIED.

Thus the limit in a polygynous relationship has to be 4 wives because if a man has 5 wives then it will become zina because then there will be 4 witnesses to the intercourse between the husband and the 5th wife.

I tend to agree with brother warner's understanding of "mohsanat" meaning committed women, which will include both married women (committed to someone else) and the one who a man is engaged to (committed to that man). In that case it will be forbidden for a man to marry a committed woman according to 424 unless she is committed to that man by oath of engagement. According to this definition, a widow will not be classified as "mohsanat" as she is not committed to anyone, therefore it will not be necessary to have oath of engagement when marrying the mothers of orphans per 43. Only those people will be punished who slander committed women per 244.

Brother Ayman, what do you think about this understanding of "mohsanat" being committed women ?

brook

I tend to agree with brother warner's understanding of "mohsanat" meaning committed women, which will include both married women (committed to someone else) and the one who a man is engaged to (committed to that man). In that case it will be forbidden for a man to marry a committed woman according to 424 unless she is committed to that man by oath of engagement. According to this definition, a widow will not be classified as "mohsanat" as she is not committed to anyone, therefore it will not be necessary to have oath of engagement when marrying the mothers of orphans per 43. Only those people will be punished who slander committed women per 244.

Take the Prophet's single daughters during his lifetime and his wives after his death. They were not committed, as you put it, to anyone in the form of engagement or marriage. Does that mean the people who slandered against them would go away with it?

I tend to believe that all believing women are mosanat, including the ones whom your oaths possess (ma malakat ayman ukum). So the Progressive Muslims translation of 244 seems to be wrong

"And those who accuse the independent women (mohsanat) and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers."

It can be corrected like this

"And those who accuse the believing women (mohsanat) and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers."

The difference between the independent mohsanat and the mohsanat whom your oaths posses is in the way the decisions concernig their committment are made. Independent mohsanat such as widows can make their own decisions whereas those whom your oaths possess have to ask you for permission.

424 is about the direct and indirect ways men can propose to believing women rather than which women they are not allowed to marry.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

unknownuser

Peace brother Hasan,

I tend to believe that all believing women are mosanat, including the ones whom your oaths possess (ma malakat ayman ukum).

Believing women are called "muminat" in al-qur'aan. Please consider the following verse

425 Waman lam yastatiaa minkum tawlan an yankiha almuhsanati almuminati famin ma malakat aymanukum min fatayatikumu almuminati

Here the usage of the phrase "almuhsanati almuminati" indicates that all believing women are "muminat" and that "muhsanat" have to be a subset of "muminat". Similarly "fatayatikumu almuminati" indicates that "fatayat" is a subset of "muminat". Thus "muhsanat" cannot be ALL believing women because then the phrase "almuhsanati almuminati" would be redundant and not make any sense.

That is why, in my understanding, "muhsanat" possibly means committed women or women protected by commitment and "ma malakat aymanukum" would be a subset of "muhsanat", while "muhsanat" would be a subset of "muminat".

IMHO slandering a committed woman would be much more dangerous than slandering an uncommitted woman because of the resultant effects on marriage or engagement and thus slander of committed women is dealt with much more severely.

brook

Believing women are called "muminat" in al-qur'aan. Please consider the following verse

425 Waman lam yastatiaa minkum tawlan an yankiha almuhsanati almuminati famin ma malakat aymanukum min fatayatikumu almuminati

Here the usage of the phrase "almuhsanati almuminati" indicates that all believing women are "muminat" and that "muhsanat" have to be a subset of "muminat". Similarly "fatayatikumu almuminati" indicates that "fatayat" is a subset of "muminat". Thus "muhsanat" cannot be ALL believing women because then the phrase "almuhsanati almuminati" would be redundant and not make any sense.

No. It is clear that muhsanat here are presented as an alternative to the ones whom your oaths possess, who are dependent on you; therefore muhsanat are independent.

The verse reads like this

And as for those of you who are not in a position to marry (independent) muhsanat, let them marry from among those young (muhsanat) whom your oaths possess.

There is no redundancy at all.

That is why, in my understanding, "muhsanat" possibly means committed women or women protected by commitment and "ma malakat aymanukum" would be a subset of "muhsanat", while "muhsanat" would be a subset of "muminat".

Yes, "ma malakat ayman ukum" are a subset of muhsanat; that is, they also are muhsanat, which means protected. Islam protects all women by a certain means, includuing the ones whom your oaths posses.

In 424 and 25 muhsanat are independent, so they protect themselves; whereas "ma malakat ayman ukum" are dependent on you, so it is you who protect them.

However, muhsanat are not a subset but the very muminat themselves.

Believing women are called "muminat" in al-qur'aan (in 424, 25)

They are synonyms like the descriptive words in Al-Ahzab 35

Allazeena muminat (3335)
..............kaanitat truly devout women
..............saadikat women who are true to their word
..............saabirat women who are patient in adversity
..............haashi?at women who humble themselves
..............mutasaddikat women who give in charity
..............saaimat self-denying women
..............haafezati furuj ahunna women who guard their private parts

Kaanitat, saadikat, saabirat haashi?at, mutasaddikat, saaimat... are all muminat; and so are muhsanat as they protect their chastity by, for example, guarding their private parts.

IMHO slandering a committed woman would be much more dangerous than slandering an uncommitted woman because of the resultant effects on marriage or engagement and thus slander of committed women is dealt with much more severely.

Do you mean that slanderers against the Prophet?s single daughters would be dealt with less severely than slanderers against his wives? Will you please support this opinion with verses from the Quran.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

unknownuser

They are synonyms like the descriptive words in Al-Ahzab 35

Allazeena muminat (3335)
..............kaanitat truly devout women
..............saadikat women who are true to their word
..............saabirat women who are patient in adversity
..............haashi?at women who humble themselves
..............mutasaddikat women who give in charity
..............saaimat self-denying women
..............haafezati furuj ahunna women who guard their private parts

Kaanitat, saadikat, saabirat haashi?at, mutasaddikat, saaimat... are all muminat; and so are muhsanat as they protect their chastity by, for example, guarding their private parts.

Saaimat are women who fast or "observe sawn" commanded by God.
Peace. Myr.

unknownuser

Peace brother Hasan,

I am a bit confused by your two posts.

This is what you wrote in your first post

I tend to believe that all believing women are mosanat, including the ones whom your oaths possess (ma malakat ayman ukum). So the Progressive Muslims translation of 244 seems to be wrong

"And those who accuse the independent women (mohsanat) and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers."

It can be corrected like this

"And those who accuse the believing women (mohsanat) and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers."

Here according to you "muhsanat" = ALL believing women and not independent women

In your second post here is what you wrote

No. It is clear that muhsanat here are presented as an alternative to the ones whom your oaths possess, who are dependent on you; therefore muhsanat are independent.

In 424 and 25 muhsanat are independent, so they protect themselves; whereas "ma malakat ayman ukum" are dependent on you, so it is you who protect them.

Here according to you "mohsanat" are only the independent ones and not ALL believing women.

Brother you are contradicting yourself.

Furthermore, you wrote in your second post

And as for those of you who are not in a position to marry (independent) muhsanat, let them marry from among those young (muhsanat) whom your oaths possess.

Here the second underlined word should read "fatayat" and not "muhsanat".

Coming back to your following quote

No. It is clear that muhsanat here are presented as an alternative to the ones whom your oaths possess, who are dependent on you; therefore muhsanat are independent.

"Muhsanat" in 425 are not presented as alternative to just "ma malakat aymanukum" but to "ma malakat aymanukum min fatayatikumu almuminati"

The "ma malakat aymanukum" discussed in 424 are a subset of "muhsanat", so the "ma malakat aymanukum" in 424 are the "muhsanat" "ma malakat aymanukum" and the "ma malakat aymanukum" in 425 are subset of "fatayat", so the "ma malakat aymanukum" in 425 are the "fatayat" "ma malakat aymanukum".

Thus "ma malakat aymanukum" can be from the "muhsanat" or the "fatayat".

After discussion with a learned member of the forum, I have realized that "almuhsanati almuminati" means believing muhsanat, and not muhsanat of/from the muminat. Thus I revise my understanding as follows

Considering the phrases "almuhsanati almuminati" and "fatayatikumu almuminati" in 425, it is clear that both muhsanat and fatayat are subsets of muminat. However by considering 55, it is clear that all muhsanat are not necessarily muminat, and there could be "muhsanat" who are from other than "muminat", for example muhsanat from the people of the book.

55 ......................and the "muhsanat" from the believing women, and the "muhsanat" from the people of the Scripture before you....................

"Fatayat" in 425 are obviously parent-protected or dependent on parents. The "ma malakat aymanukum" in 425, therefore, refers to those parent-protected women with whom one has oath of engagement. The "ma malakat aymanukum" in 424, however, refers to those "muhsanat" with whom one has oath of engagement.

Thus my revised understanding of "muhsanat" is "women self-protected by commitment". Thus "muhsanat" would include the women self-protected by commitment to marriage (married women) or women self-protected by commitment to engagement, and would exclude the widows and the independent women who are neither married nor engaged.

Let us consider 244 now

244 And those who accuse the "muhsanat" and they do not bring forth four witnesses, then you shall lash them eighty lashes and do not ever accept their testimony. Those indeed are the evildoers.

Obviously the "fatayat" is not included in the "muhsanat" in this verse. So let me ask you a question

Is it ok then to slander "fatayat" or parent-protected/parent dependent women ?

Peace

brook

Saaimat are women who fast or "observe sawn" commanded by God.

Peace, Myr. I may agree with you.

The translation of saaimat as "self-denying women" belongs to Muhammad Asad, who provides an explanation as follows

The term saa?im, usually rendered as "fasting", has here its primary connotation of "one who abstains (from anything)" or "denies to himself (anything)" cf. 1926, where the noun sawm denotes "abstinence from speech". (The Message of THE QUR?AN)

I am a bit confused by your two posts.

Please excuse me for confusing you. However, I am very sure about my understanding of muhsanat and see that your view is now basically the same as mine. There is no need on my part to make a fuss.

Thank you and peace,
Hasan Akcay

Samia

Salaam all

There have been many posts on this thread since I last visited it. I will briefly question some notions that drew my attention

First there is a notion of makeing subets mu7Sanaat mu'minaat, fatayatukuk almu'minaat, maa malakat aymanukum..etc. It is like saying English man man is a subset of English. I do not see any subsets here. The underlying condition could be "they have to be mu'mins, not just muslims).
Another thing is that all posts discuss (mu7Sanaat and maa malakat aymaanukum) as if it pertains to women only. Remember that men can also be (mu7Saneen & maa malakat aymanuhunna), so any attempt to explain these terms should take "male mu7Sans and maa malakat al-aymaan) into consideration.

From Tanveer's

I have arrived at a new understanding that polygyny is allowed by The God by virtue of it not being forbidden in the qur'aan. In 423 The God is acknowledging the presence of polygyny by forbidding polygyny with 2 sisters, but does not forbid polygyny with other women, hence permitting polygyny with women other than sisters.

Polygamy is restricted as per verse 43. There is no contradiction with verse 423. It is simply that if the mother of orphans is your sister-in-law (your wife's sister) you cannot marry her. No more permission for polygamy other than what is already stated in 43.

unknownuser

Peace sister Samia,

Thank you for sharing your understanding. The only problem that I see with your understanding at this point is as follows

No more permission for polygamy other than what is already stated in 43.

We have to be careful in attributing something to Allah that which He never said.

Where does it say in the Qur'aan that no more permission for polygamy other than what is already stated in 43 ?

The only way that could have been true is if Allah had said somewhere in the Qur'aan something similar to "it is forbidden for you to marry more than one other than what is being recited in the scripture" or "do not marry more than one other than what is already recited in the scripture".

To my knowledge, nowhere in al-qur'aan does Allah say that.

Peace

brook

I understand that there are verses in the Quran which prohibits polygamy.

For example 423 says that you are forbidden... to have two sisters at one and the same time -hurrimat alaikum... antajma'u baina'l uhtain-, which is polygamy.

Let me repeat for emphasis

You are allowed to have sisters as your wife one at a time because it is monogamy, bu you are forbidden to have sisters as your wives at one and the same time because it is polygamy.

And 2432 orders you to marry off the single from among you -Wa ankehu'l ayama minkum. It is definite that the moment you marry off a single person -ayyem- from among you, that person's state changes from single to married; therefore you can not marry him off again.

God orders you to marry off your single relatives only; He does not order you to marry off the ones who are already married.

That is definitely prohibition of polygamy.

Finally, verse 3352 forbids the Prophet from taking wife upon wife, which is in actuality prohibition of polygamy because without taking wife upon wife polygamy is impossible.

Now the question is is it permitted for the Muslims to take wife upon wife in spite of the fact that God prohibited it for the prophet by revealing 3352 and the prohet obeyed it from then on to the end of his life.

True Muslims have to think.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

unknownuser

Peace brother Hasan, all,

I understand that there are verses in the Quran which prohibits polygamy.

For example 423 says that you are forbidden... to have two sisters at one and the same time -hurrimat alaikum... antajma'u baina'l uhtain-, which is polygamy.

Let me repeat for emphasis

You are allowed to have sisters as your wife one at a time because it is monogamy, bu you are forbidden to have sisters as your wives at one and the same time because it is polygamy.

There are only two verses that forbid certain types of polygamy in al-qur'aan. In 423 polygyny with 2 sisters is forbidden and in 424 it is forbidden to marry muhsanat which includes married women thus forbidding polyandry. There is no verse that forbids polygyny with non-sisters. In 423 it says " it is forbidden to have 2 sisters together" and not "it is forbidden to have 2 women together". Please do not attribute something to Allah what He never said in al-qur'aan.

And 2432 orders you to marry off the single from among you -Wa ankehu'l ayama minkum. It is definite that the moment you marry off a single person -ayyem- from among you, that person's state changes from single to married; therefore you can not marry him off again.

God orders you to marry off your single relatives only; He does not order you to marry off the ones who are already married.

That is definitely prohibition of polygamy.

Firstly, only those can be "married off" who are still dependent. How can someone "marry off" an independant or self-protected man ? The wording "marry off" implies marrying off DEPENDENT singles. So this does not apply to independent or self-protected men who may be married.

Secondly, if this advice applies to independent or self-protected married men in addition to the dependent single men, thereby not allowing independent or self-protected married men to have more than one wife, then it would contradict with 43 which is usually translated to allow polygyny with mothers of the orphans.

I would understand 2432 as not allowing dependent men to have polygyny, and this would not be applicable to independent/self-protected men who are single or married. Thus this verse does not prohibit polygyny for independent/self-protected married men.

Finally, verse 3352 forbids the Prophet from taking wife upon wife, which is in actuality prohibition of polygamy because without taking wife upon wife polygamy is impossible.

Now the question is is it permitted for the Muslims to take wife upon wife in spite of the fact that God prohibited it for the prophet by revealing 3352 and the prohet obeyed it from then on to the end of his life.

Brother Hasan, you are creating contradiction in al-qur'aan. 3352 is an order ONLY for the Prophet and not applicable to other believers otherwise it would contradict with the permission given to believers in general to exchange wives in 420

420 And if you wish to replace one wife instead of another, and you have given one of them a large amount, then do not take anything from it. Would you take it by falsehood while it is clearly a sin?

This permission was taken away ONLY for the Prophet by 3352.

Peace

Samia

Salaam all

May I ask who of the men are forbidden for women to marry? (as per the qur'aan)

unknownuser

Peace sister Samia,

Women are forbidden to marry the following men according to al-qur'aan

Males who set up partners

2221 And do not marry the females who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if she attracts you. And do not marry the males who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if he attracts you............

Males who are disbelievers

6010 O you who believe, if the believing women come emigrating to you, then you shall test them. God is fully aware of their belief. Thus, if you establish that they are believers, then you shall not return them to the disbelievers. They are no longer lawful for them, nor are the disbelievers lawful for them. And return the dowries that were paid..........

Step-sons

422 And do not marry what your fathers had married from the women, except what has already been done. It is a lewdness, and an abhorrence, and a bad path.

Sons, father, brothers, brother's sons, sister's sons, father's brothers, mother's brothers, foster sons, brothers from suckling, daughter's husbands, step-fathers if they have consummated marriage with mother, husband's father, sister's husband while he is married to sister

423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers' sisters, and your mothers' sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

Peace

Samia

Salaam Tanveer

Why did you stop short of verse 424?

unknownuser

Peace Samia,

Just an oversight. 424 gives a conditional prohibition. You could have completed the list too, instead of asking.

Women self-protected by commitment (muhsanat), other than the ma malakat aymanukum, are forbidden to marry ALL MEN.

424 And the muhsanat from the women, except ma malakat aymanukum;

Elke

Peace tanveer

Women self-protected by commitment (muhsanat), other than the ma malakat aymanukum, are forbidden to marry ALL MEN.

What ? Would you elaborate please ? Or if i have to take up the whole thread again coz it's all been said already, just tell me so.

lk

Samia

Peace sister Samia,

Women are forbidden to marry the following men according to al-qur'aan

Males who set up partners

2221 And do not marry the females who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if she attracts you. And do not marry the males who set up partners until they believe. For a believing servant is better than one who sets up partners even if he attracts you............

Males who are disbelievers

6010 O you who believe, if the believing women come emigrating to you, then you shall test them. God is fully aware of their belief. Thus, if you establish that they are believers, then you shall not return them to the disbelievers. They are no longer lawful for them, nor are the disbelievers lawful for them. And return the dowries that were paid..........

Step-sons

422 And do not marry what your fathers had married from the women, except what has already been done. It is a lewdness, and an abhorrence, and a bad path.

Sons, father, brothers, brother's sons, sister's sons, father's brothers, mother's brothers, foster sons, brothers from suckling, daughter's husbands, step-fathers if they have consummated marriage with mother, husband's father, sister's husband while he is married to sister

423 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers' sisters, and your mothers' sisters, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters residing in your homes from your wives which you have already consummated the marriage with; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and the wives of your sons that are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

Peace

The above quote is not the same pattern as the one below

Women self-protected by commitment (muhsanat), other than the ma malakat aymanukum, are forbidden to marry ALL MEN.

According to the pattern in your first quote, this should be

Married men (muhsaneen) other than ma malakat aymanuhunna.

You see what I mean? This does not mean that I accept "muhsan" as meaning "married". Is it Ok to marry a married "milkul yameen aka ma malakat aymanuhum"?

unknownuser

Peace Elke,

What ? Would you elaborate please ? Or if i have to take up the whole thread again coz it's all been said already, just tell me so.

I have already elaborated in detail in my previous posts; please read them again.

I re-stated what was said in 424 in a different way from the women's perspective. 424 is addressing the men and telling them that "muhsanat" from the women, except ma malakat aymanukum are forbidden for them. I re-stated the same thing from a different persepective by saying that all men are forbidden to the "muhsanat" other than the ma malakat aymanukum from among the muhsanat.