A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23
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Sarah,
Its the verse "Oh wives of the Prophet"...it occurs more than once
Killing the women does not mean less women. We can use outside factors only if the message in the Quran can not be understood. But polygamy is clearly allowed in the Quran . So outside assumption even if it is correct can not over rule the clear verse.
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orphans and widows are terms used to describe paragraph spacing in word-processing.
If a paragraph runs onto two pages the lines on the bottom of the first page are referred to as orphans and the lines on the top of page two are referred to as widows.
Any way orphan mean a motherless or fatherless or parentless police
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Killing the women does not mean less women.
yeah
Say there are 52 boys born, and 48 girls. Of those 48 girls, say 5 are killed as infants. The kids then grow up and are now in their twenties. Do you not have more boys than girls?
This is very simple arithmetic. -
orphans and widows are terms used to describe paragraph spacing in word-processing.
If a paragraph runs onto two pages the lines on the bottom of the first page are referred to as orphans and the lines on the top of page two are referred to as widows.
offtopic
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We can use outside factors only if the message in the Quran can not be understood. But polygamy is clearly allowed in the Quran . So outside assumption even if it is correct can not over rule the clear verse.
nope, it isn't. If it was, it wouldn't be debatable, and you wouldn't have so many verses discouraging it, that can be taken as something that was common practice/ traditional at that time, without being Quranically justified, like the verses telling people to 'free the slaves.'
It doesn't mean that slavery is 'allowed but discouraged' in the Quran, but it's setting a precedent to bring about, over time, a situation where slavery is eradicated.
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There are other factors as men having a lower life expectancy than women due to various reasons such as war, travel, bad life style habits, natural causes etc...this might lead to more women than men in a society.
Again these factors can not over rule the Quran.I would say Polygamy is allowed with checks, it is not encouraged or discouraged, certainly not promoted or celebrated as it happend to be the case in these societies where the permission for polygamy was certainly misused.
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Peace San
and continued with ..."; so do not sway too greatly and leave her as one hanging in a void. "
Now is that called the equal (al-`adl, as in perfect balance) or is that an approach to get closer to the equal?
Peace San
But the problem I see is that the clause is qualified by...even if it is your ardent desire( were very careful),...
and continued with ..."; so do not sway too greatly and leave her as one hanging in a void. "
If the verse ended with " you will never be able to be equal between the ladies" then your argument is valid but it has a qulaifier and a continuation. One can take up the argument
Please elaborate on what qualifier you meant.
What part of "You can never be equal to the ladies even if it is your ardent desire" (i.e. were very careful as per your comment)
can possibly negates the statement
"You can never be equal to the ladies"?And what part of "so do not sway too greatly and leave her as one hanging in a void. "
can possibly negates the statement
"You can never be equal to the ladies"? -
What is your evidence to say that Orphan means fatherless and not parentless ?
Need something better than the distorted dictionary
OK. Great argument. We all need something better than the distorted dictionary. Here's one entry anyway.
Ya-Ta-Miim = orphan, fatherless, become isolated or lonely, solitary, weary, jaded, become widow, become without father before puberty/maturity.
yatim n.m. (pl. yatama) 283, 2177, 2215, 2220, 42, 43, 46, 48, 410, 436, 4127, 4127, 6152, 841, 1734, 1882, 597, 768, 8917, 9015, 936, 939, 1072
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 8, page 317Maybe someone else can come up with something better than the distorted dictionary, coming from the Quran itself? Please elaborate.
And while we are waiting for such evidence, what about you bring up the evidence that this entry of yatama is distorted? (ed)
Maybe you can start by researching all countries/nations where Arabic has been used officially/traditionally/historically and cross-check what yatama is used for?
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Clueless on the pretty youth
I honestly don't ???
One of the latter comment answers it
... as it happend to be the case in these societies where the permission for polygamy was certainly misused.
What i often witnessed in my country is that "the permission for polygamy" was certainly misused to marry a younger lady (in one case "girl" is more accurate) --without anything to do with "yatama"-- by men already married, with children.
That is why instead of stating that "POLYGAMY IS ALLOWED!", we better focus on "THERE ARE CONDITIONS!" ("checks", as you said) and spread the word to those who are still mis-promoting or mis-celebrating polygamy. And in my opinion, YATAMA is the key CONDITION.
And as you said yourself previously, "if you fear that you will not be just/equal, then one, or ma malakat aymanukum".
Notice the condition is not being not just/equal itself--which is clarified in 4129 (yes, you will NEVER be just/equal towards the ladies), but the condition begins with "you fear" (م. So of course we can interpret if one does not fear that he will not be just/equal, he might as well feel free to marry more than one. Still, pay attention to the first condition in the verse.Also please pay attention to the words qisT and `adl. The word 'adl is what is used in 43 and 4129 regarding the ladies/women, this shows the connection.
Peace.
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An Orphan has to be parentless (i.e. without both father and mother)since the issue of guardianship will not arise even if one parent was living.
Please explain how a mother with a newborn infant, for example, could guard, feed and nurture her baby, and work to get her little baby fed at the same time.
If you have witnessed how raising an infant to a toddler (and even still afterward) can take all the mother's attention, then i thought you would at least re-consider your comment above.
Come to poor countries and see for yourself (i.e., ayatin outside the Quran to compare ayatin inside the Quran with), how a widowed woman with a fatherless child could end up begging on the street.
Peace,
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There are other factors as men having a lower life expectancy than women due to various reasons such as war, travel, bad life style habits, natural causes etc...this might lead to more women than men in a society.
Have you even read my other thread? the primary cause of mortality in women would be maternal mortality, ill health due to malnutrition, etc. all which lead, overall to a lower life expectancy in women compared to men, in patriarchal societies like 7th century Arabia
Your reasons don't make sense, not even in the case of war, and I described that in the other thread
And might I remind you, that war is not mentioned anywhere in the context of that threadAgain these factors can not over rule the Quran.
Please don't claim that what you think is what the Quran says, you could very well be wrong.
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As I have stated in another thread, I do not think that in 4.3 is making poligamy lawful or unlawful, I think it is addressed to the whole comunity and distributively to those able to marry, encouraging them to marry for social harmony, solidarity and justice. And the same goes for so many other addresses and injunctions.
Regrding what was allowed to the Profet and not to others, it may wel be the number of wives. Regarding this, in two places in th Quran it says "wxcept what is already past", one of them is regrding th two sisters. I am an ignorant regarding when each aya was revealed, but on this count I would be interested to know, if somebody can help me, when was the aya about the wives of the Prophet, and not to take or exchange wives after that, revealed. Because may be that is just a way to say that he couldn't be married to more than... except what is past.
That might clarify the question a little more.Regarding the special situation of Muhammad, I think that it is rather logical. If he was a decisive figure in the country, somebody with some amount of power for whatever reason and highle regarding by the people, politically a marriage has always been a way of contracting alliances, everywhere. More powerful people had any number of wives, even among christians, only they were mistreses, but a token of alliance nontheless. A highly significant person could hardly substract himself to thoe alliances of any kind on the pretext that he woas monogmous, tht would have insulting right out for those offering their daughters or sisters as a token of friendship, and who were used to acept women on the same ground. For the sake of peace and welfare of the people it would have been wrong to reject that kind of offer. May be not all of the wives come that way, others like the daughters of companions may have been as an act of comradeship with the women or the friends. Marriage we see today almost exclusively as a reult of mostly romantic love, but it has not always been like that, and provided it was entered in full knowledge and it was honoured, there was nothing wrong with that. I guess by the time the aya putting a lid to the number of wives of the Prophet the burden for him had become already too much. I guess. I am speculating.
Salaam
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Salaam to all
Many messages were posted while I was not feeling well. But I just read Ayman's definition of "zena" and I say that THIS IS the meaning of zena. Thanks Ayman.
Moreover, the pattern of the words "zani" = fa3el, indicates a profession as in kateb (writer, clerk) tajer = (trader); taleb (seeker; enquirer)..We should also include sareq (stealer) who makes stealing their profession, not anyone who steals something once or twice. So, the limits of Allah in punishment is for those who make sex or stealing a profession (pornography, corupt people or corporation specialized in stealing peoples money, efforts..etc).
I hope I can catch-up soon on messages related directly to the original thread.
Thanks Ayman and Samia for the enlightening discussion on the definition of zina!
Salam all,
Are there websites that can tell us the pattern as well as what it indicates for given input word?
Wassalam
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I understand that understanding zaaniy and zaaniya as repeating offenders may take away some ferocity from the pretended idea that the purpose of the an noor ayas might be the punishmente of zina. In a previous post I have already stated and given reasons why in fact the purpose of the ayas IS NOT to punish zin but the prevent slander and gossip, particularly of women. An int he ayas good care is taken to make equal offenders males and females.
I do not agree thought hat they have to be repeating offenders, the form of the word is that of an active participle, the deed may be done once or may be done one thousand times, still the doer would be an active pariciple. we have that in Qur'an. Without much searching, we have two ayas concerning the Prophet
18.7 and 26.3 Where it is said
"But wouldst thou, perhaps, torment thyself to death with grief over them if they are not willing to believe in this message?
The words in bold are formulated in arabic with a single word which is the active participle, "baakhi' ". It is not being stated that the Prophet does that all the time or that he should do it more than once in order to be so reffered to.
Salaam
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Thanks Ayman and Samia for the enlightening discussion on the definition of zina!
Salam all,
Are there websites that can tell us the pattern as well as what it indicates for given input word?
Wassalam
Not quite but this resource groups words in Quran with same form (so one could study the usage and determine how it is used)
http//www.studyquran.org
then click word concordance
http//studyquran.org/resources/quran-concordance-pattern-wise.pdf -
Not quite but this resource groups words in Quran with same form (so one could study the usage and determine how it is used)
http//www.studyquran.org
then click word concordance
http//studyquran.org/resources/quran-concordance-pattern-wise.pdfThanks Wakas!
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Just to support Tanveer's point in 2006's discussion. There was a claim if there is a verse forbidding marrying 2 sister at the same time then polygamy should be ok, because if polygamy is forbidden then what is the logic of mentioning 2 sisters case. Good question. Until two cerses about alcohol; alcohol is evil, and don't practice salat while drunken. If alcohol is forbidden what is the point of mentioning don't salat with alcohol? I don't know. But it is there. Kust like 2 sisters.
