A refutation to Bro Yaseen - Polygamy is allowed in 4 23
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Peace bro Tanveer,
Thank you for your detailed post.
Those addressed in the first part of 2433 are a subset of those addressed in 2432. "Marry off" will make no sense in 2433, hence If it is "marry" in 2433 it has to be "marry" in 2432.
Okay, let's keep it marry and not marry off because that's just adding to the words anyhow.I think this verse is the key to the issue of polygamy. In this verse Allah is asking us to marry the single among us. This clearly makes polygamy impossible, and allows only monogamy. For example if a single woman marries a married man then the woman is not marrying a single but she is marrying a married man which would go against 2432.
I see it as working both ways really. As social advice. Especially as polygyny is not expressly forbidden and yet you have only one special case where it is? That is very strange, you must admit? If polygyny is forbidden why the verse do not marry two sisters at the same time? Where is the sense in that?The beauty of 2432 is that in a very eloquent way, it makes both polyandry and polygamy impossible, and makes only monogamy possible.
I do see the beauty of the verses but not in that sense. It does not forbid it anywhere YET gives only a single situation where we can't?The only exception to this general rule is that for Prophet Muhammad, who was allowed polygamy only as a special privilege given to him and not to all believers If Allah had forbidden polygamy, then there would have been no room for the exception for Prophet Muhammad.
This does not mean that polygyny as a whole is forbidden? It can mean that polygyny in a limited sense is permitted and only in special circumstances? And once again the same comes up that polygyny is NOT forbidden. Why not just say polygyny is forbidden and it's only a special privilege for the prophet?Hence when following the example of the Prophet, we should disregard the polygamy (based on 2432) and only focus on the 'category' of people he married as those were the examples shown.
Once again, I don't think based on all the verses that a)polygyny is forbidden and b)The prophet had to marry ALL the categories of women to prove a point or set an example.Rule #1 according to 2432 Allah is asking us to marry only the single among us
Bro, polygyny is NOT forbidden and secondly this is social advice coupled with the verse where there is only a special situation where polygyny is not allowed. It's like saying don't force your daughters to prostitution if they are unwilling. Why on God's green earth would you advise them to even if they were willing?Rule #2 according to 420 One wife can be replaced by another wife i.e. a divorce has to take place before one marries another wife
No, one wife can be replaced by another and divorce takes place if they don't want to stay together anymore.4129 And you will not be able to be fair regarding/between the women even if you make every effort; so do not sway too greatly and leave her as one hanging in a void. And if you reconcile and do right, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
Here you is plural, that is why plural women is used; "women" does not refer to "wives" of one person, but to "wives" of married men as a whole.
Let's say you will not be fair with women period as you are suggesting we read the verse as (wives of married men). Then it follows that God is saying a man cannot be fair with his wife even if he tried and thus should not leave her hanging in a void? This clearly does not read right?God is never forgetful. In the inheritance verses, there is no mention that if a man has two wives/spouses or more, they share a quarter or any other portion. The portion of the daughters if there are two or more (and no sons) is two-thirds (411), after legacies or debts. When there is no ascendants or descendants, the brothers and sisters share in a third if they are more than two, after legacies or debts. If there are no children, the spouse inherits the quarter of the husbands? inheritance, after legacies or debts (412). Verse 412 only makes concise perfect sense when there is no polygamy, otherwise if a man has 4 wives, it is not clear if each wife gets a quarter or a sixteenth or any other portion, after legacies or debts, unless we rely on other sources for inheritance rules.
Why did God mention portion of two or more daughters, and two or more brothers and sisters, but did not mention portion of two or more wives ??
All this is AFTER a will is carried out. I agree that two or more wives can be addressed in a will, but AFTER a will is carried out, other scenarios are discussed by God but TWO OR MORE WIVES SCENARIO IS NOT DISCUSSED. Why is that ?
Maybe because polygyny would be a rare situation and the man should have already written his will to reflect a situation that is beyond ordinary? There are many things not mentioned in the quran. What is mentioned is what God deemed important. You cannot assume that just because a certain situation is NOT mentioned it should have been there?I think "two's, three's, and four's" is an idiom for "by groups".
It does not stop at four, but at four's. It DOES NOT say "two, three, four" but says "two's, three's, and four's" meaning "group of two or two at a time, group of three or three at a time, group of four or four at a time". If it is "marry" instead of "marry off" in 43, does it make sense to marry four women in a group or four women at the same time ?
One must accept that nobody marries two three or four wives at the same time! But that?s exactly what it means if we take "ankuhu" as "marry" instead of "marry off".
So here it is marry off? In either case, that is what was discussed previously, that if a man wants to be polygynous he should marry a group at the same time. This would make for better equality among the wives. Just because nobody does it probably means they don't interpret it right and should not be taken as no one does it so it's not possible or wrong or forbidden.This translation is not forced to assume that orphans and women are the same entity. The advice for marrying off is for the women orphans only because husbands are the providers for the wives, and by marrying off the women orphans, they are guaranteed provision and protection by their husbands, thereby easing the hardship and burden from the guardian.
This does not address the point here =
Had the sign of 43 meant for them to be the same entity then there would have been nothing wrong with saying "And if you feared that you will not be equitable in the orphans, so marry off those who consented to you from the them ("minhun"..." But of course 43 doesn't say that.
Verse 4127 is again about marrying off the orphaned women and not marrying them. "yatama al-nisai" here is not "orphan's of the women" but means "orphaned women" or "women orphans".
There are plenty of verses that deal with marriage, marrying an orphan is no different from marrying any other woman.
Obviously what you give to the orphans is what is ordained/recorded for them through inheritance and not dowers (in verses 42-6 and 4127).
The vulnerable children are simply orphans (male and female) who have not reached maturity or a marriageable age yet in opposite to orphaned women (verses 43 and 4127).
In the verse above 4127, God tells us that we will find in the book the mention of the orphaned woman with regard marrying them off and with regard to their inheritance, this is only found in the initial verses of Chapter 4(43-4).
The addressed (audience) and their role in verse 4127 are consistent Carers responsible for the orphans and their financial affairs rather than carers and potential husbands at the same time (with "marry" and "dowers" interpretation).
Bro, you are just repeating points here, you have not addressed ayman's translation? Please show me where it errs as that would be most helpful. He has also labelled the genders thankfully for me, so it's easier.Rgds,
Nadya -
Again Polygamy is allowed
4 24
Yusuf Ali Also (prohibited are) women already married except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring chastity not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.
Transliteration Wal muhsana_tu minan nisa_'i illa_ ma_ malakat aima_nukum, kita_balla_hi 'alaikum, wa uhilla lakum ma_ wara_'a za_likum an tabtagu_ bi amwa_likum muhisinan gaira musa_fihin(a), famastamta'tum bihi minhunna fa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna faridah(tan), wa la_ juna_ha 'alaikum fima_ tara_daitum bihi mim ba'dil faridah(ti), innalla_ha ka_na'aliman hakima_(n).
The Quraan clearly says in above verse "Cannot marry already married women (Nisa_i)"
AND NOT already married men. Why prohibition for only married women , the verse could have easily prohibited for men also.Peace Tanveer,
You misunderstood when I tried to explain about 2 or 3 sisters.
Your argument on 3 sisters is very naive. How can you get married to 3 without getting married to 2. If you are getting married to the third, that means you are already married to 2 which is not allowed in 423. Most simple logic.
If polygamy is not allowed the restriction to marry 2 sisters at the same time is not necessary to be told specifically.
Sorry, did not mean to offend you.
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TanveerWhen did I say that the faulty logic is saying polygamy and polyandry is not prohibited. The faulty logic is deducing that polygamy and polyandry are allowed by Allah because they are not prohibited. Something may not be prohibited does not mean it is allowed. 2432 combined with 420 makes only monogamy possible, thus making polygamy/polyandry impossible/discouraged. Hence something may be made impossible and discouraged even though it is not prohibited.
Tanveer, my concern is whether polygamy is haraam or not. When I read al-quraan, the word 'halaal' is used opposite to haraam. So if polygamy is not haraam, it is halaal. Whether it's encouraged or discouraged, that's not the issue I'm concerned with at present.
Is polygamy haraam?
43 talks about "marrying" in groups of 3-4 meaning one man marrying 3-4 women at the same time (with the mistranslation of marrying). Hence one could marry 3 or more sisters at the same time and that would be ok per the faulty understanding of 423 (and 43). The faulty logic is obvious
Nice one )
Imagine a triple marriage event where you're going to marry sisters A, B, and C. A marriage like any other deal is solemnised through a contract with witnesses. So you sign to marry A. As soon as you're about to marry B, the law comes into place. As a believer, you have to follow it. How are you ever going to marry C?
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Peace All
If you look at the verses related to marriage and relationship with women you will notice a clear pattern in who initiates the marriage and who is being given in marriage.
- A Guardian/parent initiating marriage (or gives away in marriage)
Guardian in case of Orphan.
(We can see how strongly Quraan emphasizes about giving orphans in marriage and marrying orphans just like it emphasizes all relationship and treatment of orphans. First part of Sura Nisaa (Chapter 2) is about relationships with women and naturally marriage. The first verse deals with your mother and probably grand mothers and very close female relations and amazingly the Quraan sticking to the importance it places on the orphans, immediately moves to the subject of orphan women in verse 2. Beautiful.)Parent giving son or daughter in marriage
Elders/relatives giving the young in the family or in the society/neighborhood in marriage
Master in the case of the slave
Please try to read all verses dealing in the subject in the Quraan, mainly in Chapter 4 and 24.
2 A man initiating marriage (This should be older mature independent and maybe already married)
The verses are quite clear. Please try to read all verses dealing in the subject in Chapter 2, 4, and 24,33
3 A woman initiating marriage (This is an older mature independent woman)
The verse 2432 is dealing with this.
2432
And marry such of you as are solitary/single and the pious of your slaves and maid- servants. If they were poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.2432 deals with men and women who can make a decision on their own. If they chose they can marry even their slaves.
Men can get married to only single women. If women are allowed to get married to already married men, we wonder why, the word "single" in the verse dealing with women marrying whoever they want. Because it is not encouraged for a woman (when she is initiating marriage) to chose a man already married. But if a man already married chooses to marry her then there is no issue. From what I gather it's a way of discouraging single independent women from pursuing already married men.
But importantly, the only situation where an independent woman can chose a husband already married is allowed in 3350 with regard to the prophet. (3350 ...any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her this only for thee and not for the Believers...)
Although the prophet is already married a believing woman can offer to marry him and this is only for the prophet and not for other believers.These are my humble opinion and please add your thoughts.
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This is a comment on what Tanweer quoted from Aymen, concerning verses 43/127
First The term "yatama" is a masculine plural of "yateem". It could also be a plural for a mixture with at least one masculine. Feminine plural of "yateema" is "yateemaat".
Second An orphan, or a "yateem/yateema" is a child. An adult is not called yateem/yateema, otherwise, most women are "yateemaat".
Third The adjectival idafa (adjective in the form "X of Y" as in Yatamal-nisaa' is not valid in such context. The adjectival idafa describes a part of a whole, such as in ( rajulun qawiyul shakhsiya a man strong in personality). And the "whole" has to be mentioned. You can't just throw an adjectival idafa like that, without the "whole" being mentioned or known a priori.
Otherwise, we should understand that (nisaa'ul mu'mineen) means (almu'minaat)
A last general comment (and specially for Tanweer) can you please make your replies shorter? You can post as many replies as you want, but try to make a reply respond to fewer points as possible to make it short and precise.
Thanks
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Peace sister Nadya,
So here it is marry off?
"ankihoo" can mean "marry" or "marry off" depending on the context of the word. In 2432 the context is marry. What I am trying to determine is if it means "marry" or "marry off" in 43 and 4127
In either case, that is what was discussed previously, that if a man wants to be polygynous he should marry a group at the same time. This would make for better equality among the wives. Just because nobody does it probably means they don't interpret it right and should not be taken as no one does it so it's not possible or wrong or forbidden.
Alhamdulillah we are making some progress ! I agree that if it is "marry" in 43 then in the situation described in 43 one should marry a group at the same time. Overwhelming majority of the people mistranslate this part of the verse thereby giving it a false meaning. So according to al-qur'aan, the only way one can practice polygamy in a limited situation is if one marries a group ONLY (provided it is "marry" in that verse).
I see it as working both ways really. As social advice. Bro, polygyny is NOT forbidden and secondly this is social advice coupled with the verse where there is only a special situation where polygyny is not allowed. It's like saying don't force your daughters to prostitution if they are unwilling. Why on God's green earth would you advise them to even if they were willing?
If something is not forbidden in al-qur'aan, it does not automatically make it "halal". There could be a third category of things that Allah does not make "haram" but does not want us to do it. Those things cannot be labelled "halal". Example is alcohol and gambling. Another example "could be" polygyny, which is what I am trying to determine.
According to my understanding of a third category of things that Allah has not forbidden but does not want us to do it, polygyny falls into that category. The verse about alcohol and gambling is also social advice, but that does not make alcohol or gambling "halal".
Why not just say polygyny is forbidden and it's only a special privilege for the prophet?
In my understanding, when something is made "haram" or forbidden by Allah, it is forbidden for EVERYONE, and the exceptions to that forbidden thing if stated are also for EVERYONE. (Example, pork meat is forbidden for EVERYONE, and in a life threatening situation it is allowed for EVERYONE as an exception). So if Allah had said polygyny is forbidden then it has to be forbidden for EVERYONE, thus it cannot be that polygyny is forbidden but it is allowed as special privilege only to the Prophet.
The verse that you referred to about not forcing daughters into prostitution, some translators say that it is not prostitution that is being referred to there but something else; I have not done enough research in that yet.
If polygyny is forbidden why the verse do not marry two sisters at the same time? Where is the sense in that?
Only 2 sister situation was forbidden for polygyny and so even the Prophet was not allowed to marry two sisters at the same time. In my understanding, the reason other situations of polygyny were not forbidden is because if those other situations were forbidden then there would have been no room to give the Prophet special privileges of polygyny. Remember, throughout al-qur'aan the exceptions for a forbidden thing are for EVERYONE and not only for one person.
No, one wife can be replaced by another and divorce takes place if they don't want to stay together anymore.
You didn't get what I was trying to tell you. Lets start from scratch. A man X gets married to a woman Y, so Y will be the first wife. Now if he marries another woman Z, without divorcing Y, he will violate the rule in 420. So one cannot reach a polygamous situation without violating 420 first.
Why did Allah just not say "if you wish to divorce your wife do not take from her a thing" ? Why did He say "if you wish to exchange a spouse in place of a spouse........" ?
Let's say you will not be fair with women period as you are suggesting we read the verse as (wives of married men). Then it follows that God is saying a man cannot be fair with his wife even if he tried and thus should not leave her hanging in a void? This clearly does not read right?
I am not saying that the verse implies that men cannot be fair with women period. I am saying that the verse implies that men cannot be fair with their wives in a certain situation in marriage when the husband is so upset with his wife for some reason that he is thinking of divorcing her. It is impossible for a man to think straight in that situation and be fair (example husband catches his wife cheating on him and is now so upset that he is thinking of divorcing her). Hence Allah is saying that even in that situation, keep providing for her and protect her as much as you can and do not leave her "hanging". As I said, this verse is about the rights of a wife.
The verse does not read right if one has a preconceived notion or bias that men can be fair even when they are so upset with their wives that they are thinking of divorcing.
Maybe because polygyny would be a rare situation and the man should have already written his will to reflect a situation that is beyond ordinary? There are many things not mentioned in the quran. What is mentioned is what God deemed important. You cannot assume that just because a certain situation is NOT mentioned it should have been there?
It does not matter if it is a rare situation or not. The verses of inheritance give all other scenarios of "two or more" AFTER CARRYING OUT THE WILL except that of "two or more wives". All this is AFTER a will is carried out. I agree that two or more wives can be addressed in a will, but AFTER a will is carried out, other scenarios are discussed by God but TWO OR MORE WIVES SCENARIO IS NOT DISCUSSED. Why is that ?
Two or more wives maybe a rare situation BUT IT IS A VERY IMPORTANT ONE, unless you think that a wife is not as important as a daughter or sister. Why did Allah mention about the situation of two or more daughters, and two or more sisters, but not two or more wives AFTER CARRYING OUT THE WILL ??? Is a wife not as important as a daughter or sister ? Did Allah forget about the possibility of two or more wives ?
This does not address the point here =
Quote from ayman
Had the sign of 43 meant for them to be the same entity then there would have been nothing wrong with saying "And if you feared that you will not be equitable in the orphans, so marry off those who consented to you from the them ("minhun"..." But of course 43 doesn't say that.I did address that point. Brother Ayman said that if 43 means "marry off" then orphans and women have to be the same entity. I said that they don't have to be the same entity. The only change in my understanding is that by "women" in 43 Allah means the mothers of the orphans (thanks to sister Samia's explanation). Still it doesn't ask the guardian of the orphans to marry them but to marry off the mothers of the orphans in groups. The mothers of the orphans are also dependent women because of the death of their husbands, so a guardian can marry them off to other men in groups.
My understanding of 4127 is almost same as that of brother Ayman's except that in my understanding "tankihoohunna" means "marry them off" in 4127 not "marry them". According to my understanding 4127 translates to
- And they ask you for an opinion/clarification in the women, say " The God decrees/clarifies concerning
(1) them (F) and what is read/recited on you in the book concerning the orphans (F and M) of the women (F) who (F) you did not give them (F) what was written/dictated to them (F) and you desire that you marry them off (F), and
(2) the weakened from the children (F and M),
(3) and that you take care of the orphans (F and M) with the just/equitable,
and what you do from goodness indeed The God was/is with it knowledgeable."
ANOTHER IMPORTANT POINT
Let me bring another important point to your attention, which I think is the clincher in favor of "marry off" in 43.
The word used for DOWRY in Al-Quran, implying that you have to marry, is always "UJURAHUNNA" and not "SADUQATIHINNA" which is used in 44 meaning INHERITANCE and not dowry, therefore clearly meaning MARRY OFF and not marry in 43.
44 And give the women their INHERITANCE (saduqatihinna) willingly, and if they remit any of it to you of their own will, then you may take it with good feelings.
Waatoo alnnisaa SADUQATIHINNA nihlatan fa-in tibna lakum AAan shay-in minhu nafsan fakuloohu hanee-an maree-an
If Allah meant in 43 for us to marry the widows He would have used the word "UJURAHUNNA" in 44 meaning give them their dowry. However Allah uses the word "SADUQATIHINNA" for what we are supposed to give to the widows clearly meaning we are to MARRY THEM OFF and give them their INHERITANCE. Wherever Allah is talking about MARRY He uses the word "UJURAHUNNA" meaning dowry as in the following ayat
426 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the believing independent women, then from the still dependant believing young women. God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their DOWRY in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers.
..................... fainkihoohunna bi-ithni ahlihinna waatoohunna UJURAHUNNA bialmaAAroofi muhsanatin ghayra masafihatin wala muttakhithati akhdanin fa-itha ohsinna fa-in atayna bifahishatin faAAalayhinna nisfu ma AAala almuhsanati mina alAAathabi
57 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them; and the independent from the believing women, and the independent from the people of the Scripture before you, if you have given them their DOWRY, protected, chaste, and not seeking to take lovers.
..................... allatheena ootoo alkitaba min qablikum itha ataytumoohunna UJURAHUNNA muhsineena ghayra musafiheena wala muttakhithee akhdanin
3351 O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their DOWRY (UJURAHUNNA)
6011 And there is no sin upon you to marry them, if you have paid their DOWRY (UJURAHUNNA) to them
?Ujurahunna? meaning ?their dowers? is consistently and exclusively used in the Quran for what a man gives a woman as a marriage portion in a normal marriage. This textual consistency leave one in no doubt that ?saduqatihina? in verse 45 does not carry the meaning ?their dowers" but means "their inheritance". This is proved when we look at the context from 41 to 413, In this whole first part of chapter 4, Allah is talking about "inheritance".
Peace and regards,
Tanveer
- And they ask you for an opinion/clarification in the women, say " The God decrees/clarifies concerning
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Peace mquran,
Tanveer, my concern is whether polygamy is haraam or not. When I read al-quraan, the word 'halaal' is used opposite to haraam. So if polygamy is not haraam, it is halaal. Whether it's encouraged or discouraged, that's not the issue I'm concerned with at present.
Is polygamy haraam?
Allah does not make polygyny "haraam" in al-qur'aan.
If something is not forbidden in al-qur'aan, it does not automatically make it "halal". There could be a third category of things that Allah does not make "haram" but does not want us to do it. Those things cannot be labelled "halal". Example is alcohol and gambling. Another example "could be" polygyny, which is what I am trying to determine.
Do you think that polygyny is "halaal" according to al-qur'aan ?
According to my understanding of a third category of things that Allah has not forbidden but does not want us to do it, polygyny falls into that category. The verse about alcohol and gambling is also social advice, but that does not make alcohol or gambling "halal".
Imagine a triple marriage event where you're going to marry sisters A, B, and C. A marriage like any other deal is solemnised through a contract with witnesses. So you sign to marry A. As soon as you're about to marry B, the law comes into place. As a believer, you have to follow it. How are you ever going to marry C?
If according to you marrying 3 or more sisters at the same time in a group is still NOT AT THE SAME EXACT TIME thereby making the marriages linear rather than parallel just because they sign the marriage contract one after another then what if THEY ALL SIGN THE MARRIAGE CONTRACT AT THE SAME TIME ?
It is possible. One can have the 3 sisters A,B,C sign the marriage contract at the same exact time. What then ?
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Peace warner,
4 24
Yusuf Ali Also (prohibited are) women already married except those whom your right hands possess. Thus hath Allah ordained (prohibitions) against you except for these all others are lawful provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property desiring chastity not lust. Seeing that ye derive benefit from them give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if after a dower is prescribed ye agree mutually (to vary it) there is no blame on you and Allah is All-Knowing All-Wise.
Transliteration Wal muhsana_tu minan nisa_'i illa_ ma_ malakat aima_nukum, kita_balla_hi 'alaikum, wa uhilla lakum ma_ wara_'a za_likum an tabtagu_ bi amwa_likum muhisinan gaira musa_fihin(a), famastamta'tum bihi minhunna fa a_tu_hunna uju_rahunna faridah(tan), wa la_ juna_ha 'alaikum fima_ tara_daitum bihi mim ba'dil faridah(ti), innalla_ha ka_na'aliman hakima_(n).
The Quraan clearly says in above verse "Cannot marry already married women (Nisa_i)"
AND NOT already married men. Why prohibition for only married women, the verse could have easily prohibited for men also.Allah did not forbid marriage to married men because then there would have been no room for the polygyny allowed to the Prophet. In al-qur'aan wherever Allah prohibits something it is for EVERYONE, and the exceptions to a forbidden thing are also for EVERYONE. According to al-qur'aan Allah allowed polygyny ONLY to the Prophet, so He did not prohibit polygyny.
You misunderstood when I tried to explain about 2 or 3 sisters.
Your argument on 3 sisters is very naive. How can you get married to 3 without getting married to 2. If you are getting married to the third, that means you are already married to 2 which is not allowed in 423. Most simple logic.
If polygamy is not allowed the restriction to marry 2 sisters at the same time is not necessary to be told specifically.
Sorry, did not mean to offend you
You are using faulty logic bro. What if one marries 3 or more sisters in a group at the same exact time, with the 3 or more sisters signing the marriage contract in front of witnesses at the same exact time ? What then ?
Guardian in case of Orphan.
(We can see how strongly Quraan emphasizes about giving orphans in marriage and marrying orphans just like it emphasizes all relationship and treatment of orphans. First part of Sura Nisaa (Chapter 2) is about relationships with women and naturally marriage. The first verse deals with your mother and probably grand mothers and very close female relations and amazingly the Quraan sticking to the importance it places on the orphans, immediately moves to the subject of orphan women in verse 2. Beautiful.)43 does not talk about giving orphans in marriage or marrying orphans, but it talks about the mothers of those orphans. The "orphans" and the "women" in 43 are not the same entities and combining this with 4127 it is clear that "women" in 43 is referring to the mothers of the orphans. Please go through savage_carrot's post in which she quotes from brother Ayman for an explanantion of this. Also please read sister Samia's post regarding what "yatama al-nisa" means.
2432
And marry such of you as are solitary/single and the pious of your slaves and maid- servants. If they were poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.2432 deals with men and women who can make a decision on their own. If they chose they can marry even their slaves.
Men can get married to only single women. If women are allowed to get married to already married men, we wonder why, the word "single" in the verse dealing with women marrying whoever they want. Because it is not encouraged for a woman (when she is initiating marriage) to chose a man already married. But if a man already married chooses to marry her then there is no issue. From what I gather it's a way of discouraging single independent women from pursuing already married men.
First of all 2432 does not talk about slaves but servants. "Ibadikum" does not mean your slaves but your servants. Please do not mistranslate verses like that.
2432 addresses the believer men and women. The verse does not talk about who is "initiating" the marriage, that is your own addition. It just says marry the single among you. Marriage is bilateral, both independent paties have to agree to it. When a married man wants to marry a single woman, the single woman is marrying a married man and not "single among you", and that would go against 2432, doesn't matter who initiated it. So according to this verse Allah wants believeing men to marry only the single believing women and believing women to marry only single believing men, doesn't matter who initiates it.
But importantly, the only situation where an independent woman can chose a husband already married is allowed in 3350 with regard to the prophet. (3350 ...any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her this only for thee and not for the Believers...)
Although the prophet is already married a believing woman can offer to marry him and this is only for the prophet and not for other believers.The part of 3350 you are referring to mentions "muminaat" not "muhsinaat". You are mistranslating "muminaat" meaning "believer women" to "independent women". Thus a "dependent" believer woman who is not married (for example ma malakat aymanukum or a believer single woman who is still dependent on her parents or guardian) can also be one of the "muminaat". The polygamous possibilty described in 3350 is only a special privilege for the Prophet and no one else. Other than the Prophet, no other polygamous situation is allowed/encouraged/made possible by Allah in al-qur'aan.
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Polyandry is not allowed in the Quraan
Peace m quran
If a woman is married to a man to commit polyandry she has to marry another man while being married. As for the latter( second man) it is prohibited marrying a married woman according to the Quraan. So if the woman marries the second man the woman becomes automatic partner in the prohibited act. Since under this law in the Quraan polyandry becomes automatically impossible , Quraan does not have to specifically mention that.
Peace Tanveer
I am not going to answer to you since you do not seem to get the most
basic things. You build on your own ignorance. Marriage is not signing a contract together. -
Peace bro Tanveer,
If something is not forbidden in al-qur'aan, it does not automatically make it "halal". There could be a third category of things that Allah does not make "haram" but does not want us to do it. Those things cannot be labelled "halal". Example is alcohol and gambling. Another example "could be" polygyny, which is what I am trying to determine.
According to my understanding of a third category of things that Allah has not forbidden but does not want us to do it, polygyny falls into that category. The verse about alcohol and gambling is also social advice, but that does not make alcohol or gambling "halal".
Anything that is not forbidden is halal. It is then up to you to keep it in moderation. We must be very careful of labelling haram and halal unless expressly mentioned, infact we shouldn't even use those words unless they are expressly mentioned. We can use discouraged/encouraged and that will lead to a better understanding. Discouraging does not equal haram please, also something haram can become halal in times of necessity.You didn't get what I was trying to tell you. Lets start from scratch. A man X gets married to a woman Y, so Y will be the first wife. Now if he marries another woman Z, without divorcing Y, he will violate the rule in 420. So one cannot reach a polygamous situation without violating 420 first.
Why did Allah just not say "if you wish to divorce your wife do not take from her a thing" ? Why did He say "if you wish to exchange a spouse in place of a spouse........" ?
Because people can exchange spouses? One for the other whether they be 3 or 4 spouses? Your X-Y analogy is also not taking into consideration that it can be interpreted as social advice?I am not saying that the verse implies that men cannot be fair with women period. I am saying that the verse implies that men cannot be fair with their wives in a certain situation in marriage when the husband is so upset with his wife for some reason that he is thinking of divorcing her. It is impossible for a man to think straight in that situation and be fair (example husband catches his wife cheating on him and is now so upset that he is thinking of divorcing her). Hence Allah is saying that even in that situation, keep providing for her and protect her as much as you can and do not leave her "hanging". As I said, this verse is about the rights of a wife.
The verse does not read right if one has a preconceived notion or bias that men can be fair even when they are so upset with their wives that they are thinking of divorcing.
No, I think this is really stretching it here. If the husband is upset it has to be for a legtimate reason, God is not trying to soothe the man when he wants to divorce for the heck of it. Thus if there are legitimate reasons they are supposed to work it out between themselves, and the first part of the verse, you can never be fair with the women if you tried is revealing. If a man catches his wife cheating, and he wants to divorce her is that not fair even though he is upset? Does that seem right to you? But no, a man should reconcile with her and keep providing for her even though she is an adultress...how is that even remotely making sense? I can tell you, in that situation she ain't hanging in a void, she's living it up.It does not matter if it is a rare situation or not. The verses of inheritance give all other scenarios of "two or more" AFTER CARRYING OUT THE WILL except that of "two or more wives". All this is AFTER a will is carried out. I agree that two or more wives can be addressed in a will, but AFTER a will is carried out, other scenarios are discussed by God but TWO OR MORE WIVES SCENARIO IS NOT DISCUSSED. Why is that ?
Bro, I told you this is not a legitimate argument, conjecturing about things that should have been there according to one's understanding. If it's not there, it's not there. Look to the other verses for direct clues, that is legitimate.Brother Ayman said that if 43 means "marry off" then orphans and women have to be the same entity. I said that they don't have to be the same entity. The only change in my understanding is that by "women" in 43 Allah means the mothers of the orphans (thanks to sister Samia's explanation). Still it doesn't ask the guardian of the orphans to marry them but to marry off the mothers of the orphans in groups. The mothers of the orphans are also dependent women because of the death of their husbands, so a guardian can marry them off to other men in groups.
Had the sign of 43 meant for them to be the same entity then there would have been nothing wrong with saying "And if you feared that you will not be equitable in the orphans, so marry off those who consented to you from the them ("minhun"..." But of course 43 doesn't say that.
I think this is a strong indicator that they are not the same entity, in either case you think now that they are mother's of the orphans, and the same point rears it's head up...marry or marry off. Since it is not expressly forbidden and the strange case of only one situation where we can't marry two sisters at the same time, I think it well can be marry.Let me bring another important point to your attention, which I think is the clincher in favor of "marry off" in 43.
The word used for DOWRY in Al-Quran, implying that you have to marry, is always "UJURAHUNNA" and not "SADUQATIHINNA" which is used in 44 meaning INHERITANCE and not dowry, therefore clearly meaning MARRY OFF and not marry in 43.
Bro, I have discussed this quite a lot in the past years and have gone from one understanding to the next and then back again. I will think about this one and get back to you unless someone else does in the meanwhile. I will also suggest that you consider the fact that since it is not expressly forbidden, we can't make it haram. Also, the mysterious case of do not marry two sisters at the same time. It well might be discouraged but permissible in some situations? -
Allah does not make polygyny "haraam" in al-qur'aan.
Good. That's all I really wanted to know.
If something is not forbidden in al-qur'aan, it does not automatically make it "halal". There could be a third category of things that Allah does not make "haram" but does not want us to do it. Those things cannot be labelled "halal". Example is alcohol and gambling. Another example "could be" polygyny, which is what I am trying to determine.
Great. There's a small thing in these discussions though called 'evidence'. 'there could be a third category' very unfortunately doesn't constitute 'evidence'. Kindly produce evidence from al-quraan which you have 'determined' it. Please also look at verses like 7/157 to see the dynamics between the terms 'haram' and 'halal'.
Do you think that polygyny is "halaal" according to al-qur'aan ?According to my understanding of a third category of things that Allah has not forbidden but does not want us to do it, polygyny falls into that category. The verse about alcohol and gambling is also social advice, but that does not make alcohol or gambling "halal".
Sorry, the usage of the context makes something not haraam to be halaal. Prove your third category if you're truthful.
If according to you marrying 3 or more sisters at the same time in a group is still NOT AT THE SAME EXACT TIME thereby making the marriages linear rather than parallel just because they sign the marriage contract one after another then what if THEY ALL SIGN THE MARRIAGE CONTRACT AT THE SAME TIME ?It is possible. One can have the 3 sisters A,B,C sign the marriage contract at the same exact time. What then ?
They can, but according 2/282 , a contract isn't valid unless both parties and witness signs it thereby making it a single event. So unless you can create a scenario like the movie Multiplicity, that's not going to happen.
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WarnerIf a woman is married to a man to commit polyandry she has to marry another man while being married. As for the latter( second man) it is prohibited marrying a married woman according to the Quraan. So if the woman marries the second man the woman becomes automatic partner in the prohibited act. Since under this law in the Quraan polyandry becomes automatically impossible , Quraan does not have to specifically mention that.
I stand corrected. Excellent argumentation, warner. Do note though that is for believers, only.
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Peace mquran and Nadya
I am repeating one of my earlier posts. Since I guessed that you would have missed it. Please take a look and add your thoughts . I am seeing a completely different view of the priviledge allowed for only the prophet in 3350
Peace All
If you look at the verses related to marriage and relationship with women you will notice a clear pattern in who initiates the marriage and who is being given in marriage.
- A Guardian/parent initiating marriage (or gives away in marriage)
Guardian in case of Orphan.
(We can see how strongly Quraan emphasizes about giving orphans in marriage and marrying orphans just like it emphasizes all relationship and treatment of orphans. First part of Sura Nisaa (Chapter 2) is about relationships with women and naturally marriage. The first verse deals with your mother and probably grand mothers and very close female relations and amazingly the Quraan sticking to the importance it places on the orphans, immediately moves to the subject of orphan women in verse 2. Beautiful.)Parent giving son or daughter in marriage
Elders/relatives giving the young in the family or in the society/neighborhood in marriage
Master in the case of the slave
Please try to read all verses dealing in the subject in the Quraan, mainly in Chapter 4 and 24.
2 A man initiating marriage (This should be older mature independent and maybe already married)
The verses are quite clear. Please try to read all verses dealing in the subject in Chapter 2, 4, and 24,33
3 A woman initiating marriage (This is an older mature independent woman)
The verse 2432 is dealing with this.
2432
And marry such of you as are solitary/single and the pious of your slaves and maid- servants. If they were poor, Allah will enrich them of His bounty. Allah is of ample means, Aware.2432 deals with men and women who can make a decision on their own. If they chose they can marry even their slaves.
Men can get married to only single women. If women are allowed to get married to already married men, we wonder why, the word "single" in the verse dealing with women marrying whoever they want. Because it is not encouraged for a woman (when she is initiating marriage) to chose a man already married. But if a man already married chooses to marry her then there is no issue. From what I gather it's a way of discouraging single independent women from pursuing already married men.
But importantly, the only situation where an independent woman can chose a husband already married is allowed in 3350 with regard to the prophet. (3350 ...any believing woman who dedicates her soul to the Prophet if the Prophet wishes to wed her this only for thee and not for the Believers...)
Although the prophet is already married a believing woman can offer to marry him and this is only for the prophet and not for other believers.These are my humble opinion and please add your thoughts.
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Peace warner,
Thanks for reposting, I must've missed it. I wil research this further and post later when I have.
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Peace all
Warner, good point against polyandry.
However, let?s also not forget that 4/24 excludes ma malakat aymanukum from those muhSanat women who are forbidden to be married.
It says illa ma malakat aymanukum!I don?t want to get into interpreting this term here. There have been numerous idead on that posted and voiced on free minds, some on which I agree and some on which i don?t agree.
But in effect I would say that 4/24 shows that there are in practice indeed some muhSanat nisaa who could have multiple husbands when these muhSanat nisaa are part of ma malakat aymanukum!
I am willing to be corrected, though.
regards,
Leyla
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Salam Leyla and all
The problem is when we decided that Muhsanat means married women. What does marriage protect from? (muhsan means protected)
Secondly, in many verses, we find muhsanaat is mentioned where it could mean anything but a married woman (as in verse 25 of ch 4).
Thirdly, this term is often mentioned in opposition to ma malakat aymanukum. On the other hand, ma malakat aymanukum is always mentioned in an alternative to zawj (azwajukum AW "or" ma malakat aymanukum).
Back to this thread why are almuhsanat (in the context of those not to be married),mentioned in a verse exclusive to them? Verse 2432 already mentioned that only singles are to be married.
I believe the move from the verse 423, containing all the (mahrams) to a new verse (424) indicates a shifting between two different groups being addressed . Notice that from verse 25 onward, we are in regulations and laws concerning mainly(ma malakat aymanukum, as in opposition to muhsanat).
Maybe I can tell what muhsanat or ma malakat aymanukum is NOT,however, I need other opinions to say what these two terms stand for.
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Peace Leyla, Samia, Mquran, Warner, all,
However, let?s also not forget that 4/24 excludes ma malakat aymanukum from those muhSanat women who are forbidden to be married.
It says illa ma malakat aymanukum!I don?t want to get into interpreting this term here. There have been numerous idead on that posted and voiced on free minds, some on which I agree and some on which i don?t agree.
But in effect I would say that 4/24 shows that there are in practice indeed some muhSanat nisaa who could have multiple husbands when these muhSanat nisaa are part of ma malakat aymanukum!
I was going to write the same in reply to warners post but edited it out at the last minute.
I agree with you that IF "muhsinaat" means "married women" then the word "illa" or "except" before "ma malakat aymanukum" will mean that the "ma malakat aymanukum" bing mentioned are MARRIED. That will be allowing POLYANDRY in case of the "ma malakat aymanukum" mentioned.
The word "illa" or "except" before "ma malakat aymanukum" in 424 means that those "ma malakat aymanukum" are a subset of "muhsinaat" mentioned in the same verse. So if "muhsinaat" here is translated as married, then the "ma malakat aymanukum" mentioned in this verse are also married. THAT PERMITS POLYANDRY in a limited cases.
I tend to agree with Samia that "muhsinaat" here means "protected women" and not "married women". That will make their subset "ma malakat aymanukum" mentioned in this verse also protected.
What "protected women" means needs to be researched further.
Brother mquran and warner, IF "muhsinaat" in 424 means married then due to the exception "illa", POLYANDRY IS NOT CATEGORICALLY FORBIDDEN IN ALL CASES BUT ALLOWED IN SOME CASES.
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Peace mquran,
Sorry, the usage of the context makes something not haraam to be halaal.
So then do you think alcohol and gambling is "halaal" according to al-qur'aan ?
They can, but according 2/282 , a contract isn't valid unless both parties and witness signs it thereby making it a single event. So unless you can create a scenario like the movie Multiplicity, that's not going to happen.
The man getting married signs three contracts first with no signatures yet from the 3 sisters. Then the 3 sisters all sign their respective contracts at the same time. Then the 3 witnesses all sign the 3 respective contracts at the same time. No Multiplicity scenario needed. WHAT THEN ?
Can you also please educate brother warner that a signed contract by all parties involved in front of witness is required for marriage ? since he doesn't believe me when I tried to tell him that.
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Peace sister Nadya,
Thank you for the excellent discussion and raising interesting and excellent points.
I will also suggest that you consider the fact that since it is not expressly forbidden, we can't make it haram.
I agree that polygyny is not "haraam" according to al-qur'aan. All I am trying to say is that Allah does not encourage it in view of "marry the single among you" verse. Also I think that "ankihoo" is mistranslated as "marry" instead of "marry off" in 43 and 4127. In my understanding the translation "marry off" makes sense and is the "best" meaning in view of the context especially the "saduqatihinna" context.
Bro, I told you this is not a legitimate argument, conjecturing about things that should have been there according to one's understanding. If it's not there, it's not there. Look to the other verses for direct clues, that is legitimate.
If Allah allowed polygamy then it seems very strange that he did not mention the share of two or more wives in inheritance AFTER CARRYING OUT THE WILL. If, however, "ankihoo" in 43 is translated as "marry off" then it all fits.
Because people can exchange spouses? One for the other whether they be 3 or 4 spouses? Your X-Y analogy is also not taking into consideration that it can be interpreted as social advice?
Please note that one cannot arrive at a polygamous situation in which one exchanges one of the multiple spouses for another without violating the "marry the single among you" social advice first.
Also you have not addressed the following question
Why did Allah just not say "if you wish to divorce your wife do not take from her a thing" ? Why did He say "if you wish to exchange a spouse in place of a spouse........" ?
No, I think this is really stretching it here. If the husband is upset it has to be for a legtimate reason, God is not trying to soothe the man when he wants to divorce for the heck of it. Thus if there are legitimate reasons they are supposed to work it out between themselves, and the first part of the verse, you can never be fair with the women if you tried is revealing. If a man catches his wife cheating, and he wants to divorce her is that not fair even though he is upset? Does that seem right to you? But no, a man should reconcile with her and keep providing for her even though she is an adultress...how is that even remotely making sense? I can tell you, in that situation she ain't hanging in a void, she's living it up.
I did not mean "adultery" when I said "cheating". The wife could have been just kissing someone or maybe found holding hands or cuddling in a romantic way etc. It could also be any other reason too she might be mistreating/abusing the children for example. What I am trying to say is that I think Allah is trying to tell us that it becomes impossible for a husband to think straight in that situation and to be totally fair when he is so upset with his wife that he is thinking about divorce, and Allah is advising the husband to try to be as fair as he can even in that situation and still keep fulfilling his obligations towards the wife, and try to reconcile and remedy the situation.
Also, the mysterious case of do not marry two sisters at the same time. It well might be discouraged but permissible in some situations?
There would be a contradiction between 423 and 43 if the meaning "marry" is forced upon 43. Logically if 43 talks about "marrying" in groups then one will be able to marry 3 or more sisters in a group at the same time even though Allah is forbidding marrying 2 sisters at the same time.
Bro, I have discussed this quite a lot in the past years and have gone from one understanding to the next and then back again. I will think about this one and get back to you unless someone else does in the meanwhile.
The "saduqatihinna" evidence tips the scales in favor of "ankihoo" meaning "marry off" in 43. Then all the qur'aanic verses about marriage are in total harmony and there is no resulting contradiction anywhere, especially the contradiction between 423 and 43 regarding the sisters. Otherwise there is no getting around the "marry the single among you" and the mysterious absence of the mentioning of two or more wives scenario after carrying out will in inheritance verses, and mentioning "saduqatihinna" instead of "ujurihinna" in context of 43.
Peace and regards
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Peace All and Peace Samia
You mean 244 not 254?
Question 1
Does the Quraan use the words yateema and yateemat for female orphans.
Question 2
Is not a Orphan a person probably young without both parents ?
Question 3
Does Muhsanat have to mean married women? Can it be just good women.
Muhsinin is used as Good Doers/Right doers in the Quraan,5116
Taking that which their Lord giveth them; for lo! aforetime they were doers of good;
A_khizina ma_ a_ta_hum rab buhum in nahum ka_nu_ qabla za_lika muhsinin
16128
For Allah is with those who restrain themselves and those who do good.
Innalla_ha ma'al lazina-ttaqau wal lazina hum muhsinu_n(a).Why can not muhsinat be good women (women who are not proven of adultery /zina, lewdness/Fahisha or any other crime like theft and not belonging to the group ma malakat aymanakum).
Also I thought both words (muhsinin and muhsinat) come from the root H S N which is good~
Question 3
Does not the following verse suggest that the reason prophet got married many times is because he was attracted to their beauty , the same reason most men want to marry more than once.
3352
Yusuf Ali It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this nor to change them for (other) wives even though their beauty attract thee except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens) and Allah doth watch over all things.
Pickthall It is not allowed thee to take (other) women henceforth nor that thou shouldst change them for other wives even though their beauty pleased thee, save those whom thy right hand possesseth. And Allah is Watcher over all things.
Question 4
The "change them for other wives " in 3352 and "one wife in place of another" in 420 do these have same meaning. Please help me here since I am not good at Arabic.
Question 5
Doesn't the " thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries" in 3350 below suggest the prophet has already married few times by the time these verse was revealed ?
33 50 O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war, and the daughters of thine uncle on the father's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the father's side, and the daughters of thine uncle on the mother's side and the daughters of thine aunts on the mother's side who emigrated with thee, and a believing woman if she give herself unto the Prophet and the Prophet desire to ask her in marriage - a privilege for thee only, not for the (rest of) believers - We are Aware of that which We enjoined upon them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands possess - that thou mayst be free from blame, for Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.
Enough questions for the day.
Peace Tanveer , I hope did not offend.
Thank Allah for giving the opportunity to communicate with few who are seeking the truth.
Peace All.