a surah like it
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DanishDoc, let us cut the chase and tell me why you believe that the Quran is Allah?s Words?
Funny that you're asking him now when you've made assumptions before already.
By your statement above, would you say that the history mentioned in the Quran is also written by victors and hence suspicious? Please explain?
Al-quraan says that in it contains YOUR mentioning. Therefore, we're not looking at his-story but OUR story.
If all history is suspicious to you, then what evidence are you going to look at? Let us take the story of Noah mentioned in the Quran. Now tell me what evidence do you have to support its validity and why, knowing that a written book tells us to use our mind, eyes and ears and to verify information?
Good question but for a guy with such arrogance, one wonders how he doesn't know the answer to this. I guess it was because he was so busy mouthing off he didn't actually read al-quraan itself.
The stories in al-quraan are called 'ibratun lil ulil albaab' (archetypes for people of the core) and are said to be 'fil afaaq wa fil anfushim' (in our horizons and in our own selves). They are not meant for an Indiana Jones like adventure for you to go seek out some old boat somewhere.
Live the life of Nuh, and you will see al-haqq comes to life.
Why the hesitance? Ah, the EXTREME DENIAL!!! Besides, I can say the same thing about the ?challenged surahs? as being miraculous in other aspects, when read and understood properly. Did you notice the truth and wisdom in it or would you simply cherry pick the word ?dung? and sleep on it like the 'prophet of doom' did?
It is a matter of personal view, sadly. Your dung-sura doesn't tell us why it's the word of Allah. Can you tell us perhaps? Does your creator love dung a lot?
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Doc, let us cut the chase and tell me why you believe that the Quran is Allah?s Words?
You already told me why I believe the Qur'an is Allah's Words in this thread. Far be it for me to inform you of something you clearly already know about.
By your statement above, would you say that the history mentioned in the Quran is also written by victors and hence suspicious? Please explain?
If all history is suspicious to you, then what evidence are you going to look at? Let us take the story of Noah mentioned in the Quran. Now tell me what evidence do you have to support its validity and why, knowing that a written book tells us to use our mind, eyes and ears and to verify information?
I didn't grow up believing in the Qur'an. It was never imposed on me. I sought it out myself. After years of examination, I came to the conclusion that it was divine. I did this for a number of reasons (well, you already know the reasons apparently but I'll add on a few more anyway) 1) it comports with my intuition and sense of logic; the message makes sens to me. I realize, of course, this is subjective and experiential and I admit as such. It is still one of the reasons why I believe. 2) More objectively speaking, it is amazing how well it conforms with established science. For a book that's 1400 years old, there simply has to be a better explanation than "the author was just lucky." I know all the arguments against it, ranging from "oh you're just twisting the verses to fit the science" or "oh, all the science was known back then anyway." Empty substance-less rhetoric. 3) Statistically significant mathematical pattern in the Qur'an.
So, with those reasons in mind, I accepted it as divine. Yes, I was suspicious. But these reasons (to my mind) dispelled my suspicions. Since these reasons led me to the belief that it was divine, naturally I accept the bits of history contained within it. You do understand there is no contradiction in that statement, right?
Why the hesitance? Ah, the EXTREME DENIAL!!! Besides, I can say the same thing about the ?challenged surahs? as being miraculous in other aspects, when read and understood properly. Did you notice the truth and wisdom in it or would you simply cherry pick the word ?dung? and sleep on it like the 'prophet of doom' did?
D ok. Goodbye now.
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Q1 Doc, let us cut the chase and tell me why you believe that the Quran is Allah?s Words?
You already told me why I believe the Qur'an is Allah's Words in this thread. Far be it for me to inform you of something you clearly already know about.
First you advise me of assuming your statements and then you tell me that I clearly already know about. So, when you knew that what I clearly know about, then why did you say that you never told me. You are just playing around with yours as well as my words (fashioning posts and circling around them?remember), thus running out of words to defend yourself. Here's what you said
And again, I advise you to assume less I never told you why I believe in the Qur'an's divinity. Where did I use circular reasoning?
Where have I ever said I believe in the book cause God says because the book says so?
Neither did I ever say that YOU said it. Here?s what I said ?It boils down to "because one book says so because Allah says because this book says so" and you can't get pass through this?. That?s the BOTTOM LINE, for all who believe that Quran IS Allah?s Words.
Q2 By your statement above, would you say that the history mentioned in the Quran is also written by victors and hence suspicious? Please explain?
Q3 If all history is suspicious to you, then what evidence are you going to look at? Let us take the story of Noah mentioned in the Quran. Now tell me what evidence do you have to support its validity and why, knowing that a written book tells us to use our mind, eyes and ears and to verify information?
I didn't grow up believing in the Qur'an. It was never imposed on me. I sought it out myself. After years of examination, I came to the conclusion that it was divine. I did this for a number of reasons (well, you already know the reasons apparently but I'll add on a few more anyway) 1) it comports with my intuition and sense of logic; the message makes sens to me. I realize, of course, this is subjective and experiential and I admit as such. It is still one of the reasons why I believe. 2) More objectively speaking, it is amazing how well it conforms with established science. For a book that's 1400 years old, there simply has to be a better explanation than "the author was just lucky." I know all the arguments against it, ranging from "oh you're just twisting the verses to fit the science" or "oh, all the science was known back then anyway." Empty substance-less rhetoric. 3) Statistically significant mathematical pattern in the Qur'an.
So, with those reasons in mind, I accepted it as divine. Yes, I was suspicious. But these reasons (to my mind) dispelled my suspicions. Since these reasons led me to the belief that it was divine, naturally I accept the bits of history contained within it. You do understand there is no contradiction in that statement, right?
Whatever you said above was reflected to the very first question and totally ignored the other two (Q1,Q2 & Q3 inserted for clarity), as well as the following one (underlined)
Could not those people "back then" have done the same thing you accused us of? Could not someone in 9th century Spain (where, with or without the Qur'an, he probably lived in a culture where hand-chopping was common) have also "twisted meanings of the verses" to fit their perspective?
Danish wrote Hah, by your reasoning above, then all those scribes of "back then", who put the Quran together, become "suspicious". So how are you going to prove that all those scribes who put the Quran together are absolutely correct? -
I
give of my wisdom,
give of my knowledge,
give of my power.
Freely I give to the children of men.
If God give freely His wisdom, all of us would have same rank of knowledge and wisdom now, but in reality,this is not so.
Give that they, too, might have wisdom
to shine through the world from the veil of the night. ??? Night is when you do righteous deeds?..or meaning of night is darkness? P or night is bad?
Wisdom is power and power is wisdom,
Power is wisdom? Then why many kingdoms fell and does not last? Were the people who held high positions enforce just laws? Were citizens of the rulers happy and live in peace?
one with each other, perfecting the whole.Be thou not proud, O man, in thy wisdom.
Discourse with the ignorant as well as the wise.
If one comes to thee full of knowledge,
listen and heed, for wisdom is all.Keep thou not silent when evil is spoken for Truth
evil is qual to sunlight? It prospers communities like sunlight as substance to plants and other creatures?
like the sunlight shines above all.
He who over-steppeth the Law shall be punished,
for only through Law comes the freedom of men.
How can man be free when he is bound to Law?
Cause thou not fear for fear is a bondage,
a fetter that binds the darkness to men.Follow thine heart during thy lifetime.
Do thou more than is commanded of thee.When thou hast gained riches,
follow thou thine heart,
for all these are of no avail if
thine heart be weary.
Diminish thou not the time of
following thine heart.
It is abhorred of the soul.
Wow! Thats what criminals are doing now. The adultry are doing, those who committed suicide..ect. I thought earlier it says listen to wisdom and take heed, who's wisdom anyway? My heart?They that are guided go not astray,
but they that are lost cannot find a straight path.
If thou go among men, make for thyself,
Love, the beginning and end of the heart.If one cometh unto thee for council,
let him speak freely,
that the thing for which he hath
come to thee may be done.
If he hesitates to open his heart to thee,
it is because thou, the judge, doeth the wrong.
He hesistate, it is because i am wrong. I am wrong because he hesistate. what kind of criterion is this??Repeat thou not extravagant speech,
neither listen thou to it,
What if that speech is wisdom?
for it is the utterance of one
not in equilibrium.
Speak thou not of it,
so that he before thee may know wisdom.
Erm, how is that? if you dont speak, he would only aware of his knowledge. And if you dont listen, you wont know if it is wisdom that he is uttering. Contradicts with second paragraph of this 'sura'. "Discourse with the ignorant as well as the wise." You can't if you dont listen.
Silence is of great profit.
An abundance of speech profiteth nothing.
Eventhough it is 'wisdom' ?
Exalt not thine heart above the children of men,
lest it be brought lower than the dust.
Lower than the dust? What's the dust? I dont (or maybe i can't) see the compare and contrast between man's heart and the dustIf thou be great among men,
be honoured for knowledge and gentleness.
If thou seeketh to know the nature of a friend,
ask not his companion,
but pass a time alone with him.
Debate with him,
testing his heart by his words and his bearing.That which goeth into the store-house must come forth,
and the things that are thine must be shared with a friend.Knowledge is regarded by the fool as ignorance,
and the things that are profitable are to him hurtful.
He liveth in death. ???
It is therefore his food.The wise man lets his heart overflow
but keeps silent his mouth. I thought you said to share and give wisdom??
O man, list to the voice of wisdom;
list to the voice of light. erm, what is wisdom, what is voice of light? Is there another sura to explain it??482 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
111 A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things) ...
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Night is when you do righteous deeds?..or meaning of night is darkness?
Those who (in charity) spend of their goods by night and by day, in secret and in public, have their reward with their Lord on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.002274
Power is wisdom?
By God's will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and God gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not God Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief But God is full of bounty to all the worlds.002251
By God's will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and God gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not God Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief But God is full of bounty to all the worlds.002251
evil is qual to sunlight? It prospers communities like sunlight as substance to plants and other creatures?
Look at it again, the symbolism it uses says that you will be seen if you lie. Seen like the sun, thats how much youll be seen.
How can man be free when he is bound to Law?
This applies to the Quran aswell, man has free will but must obey the law, same terms even.
Wow! Thats what criminals are doing now. The adultry are doing, those who committed suicide..ect. I thought earlier it says listen to wisdom and take heed, who's wisdom anyway? My heart?
ehhh...read that part again. It actually says, do as you please if you have money, go right ahead, but your soul will hate you for it.
If one cometh unto thee for council,
let him speak freely,
that the thing for which he hath
come to thee may be done.
If he hesitates to open his heart to thee,
it is because thou, the judge, doeth the wrong.
He hesistate, it is because i am wrong. I am wrong because he hesistate. what kind of criterion is this??look at this again. If he hesitates it is because he is afraid obviously. The only reason men hesitate to do anything. If he is fearfull for you, and you are a judge, you are doing something wrong. He should be full of trust in you, and if he isnt, youre doing it wrong.
Repeat thou not extravagant speech,
neither listen thou to it,
What if that speech is wisdom?"And the example of the bad word is that of a bad tree chopped at the soil level; it has no roots to keep it firm." 1426
Extravagant speech can never be wisdom.
Erm, how is that? if you dont speak, he would only aware of his knowledge. And if you dont listen, you wont know if it is wisdom that he is uttering. Contradicts with second paragraph of this 'sura'. "Discourse with the ignorant as well as the wise." You can't if you dont listen.
no you just read it wrong. go back
An abundance of speech profiteth nothing.
Eventhough it is 'wisdom' ?go back and read the whole section again.
lest it be brought lower than the dust.
Lower than the dust? What's the dust? I dont (or maybe i can't) see the compare and contrast between man's heart and the dustGod disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say "What means God by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path), 002026
oh noes...lowest or highest, what could this mean. hmmm...i simply dont know, it could mean anything. C'mon.
The wise man lets his heart overflow
but keeps silent his mouth. I thought you said to share and give wisdom??Obviously. so now we can conclude that wisdom is beyond mere words and chattering.
O man, list to the voice of wisdom;
list to the voice of light. erm, what is wisdom, what is voice of light? Is there another sura to explain it??the same can be said of this. This light requires that you have a pre fixed notion on what this light is. The light of God, yeah, well, what is it? same kind of reasoning.
God is the Protector of those who have faith from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).002257
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Peace.
The part about extravagant speech.. after thinking about it, yes,i admit it's better to stop talking then making extravagant speech. I also agree that God's similitudes can be of lowest as the dust, although i still cant see what's with the dust and man's heart.. does it mean ..of no substance, not useful, or simple means no heart? And i dont get it, how do you share wisdom if you dont speak, unless the wisdom comes from God to the observer's mind? Doesn't it says in the quran God guides those he please and guide not whom He wants, and it is only our duty to pass the message, the one who gives is God alone?? *this is when you dont keep silent, bro. coz i cant see you D
And yes, i admit you are right that we can do charity at night and by day, secret or public..Give that they, too, might have wisdom to shine through the world from the veil of the night. I just got the impression that the veil of the night is lower than day..
The light of God, yeah, well, what is it? same kind of reasoning. yeah, i see it now. P
On freedom and free will.. yes, human have free will, but it is limited..we can act within some conditions..still not free from bearing the consequences of our action. Moreover, dont tell me we live not in God's nature laws?? what do this 'freedom' in the verse mean?
Regarding wisdom is power and power is wisdom.. God gave David power and wisdom. But does that mean with power comes wisdom? You forgot about pharaoh..and the people who 1191 They said "O Shu'aib! much of what thou sayest we do not understand! In fact among us we see that thou hast no strength! Were it not for thy family, we should certainly have stoned thee! for thou hast among us no great position!" ..and the leaders who lead their people to hell. It isnt consistent with Wisdom is power and power is wisdom, one with each other, perfecting the whole. Or maybe i understood this verse wrongly.. people can twist their words, throw in some quran verse and give different interpretations to a verse.. But clearly this man made verse has contradicted other true verses from God.
And even one clear inconsistency alone can show this sura has failed to answer God's challege.
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You broke far too many rules trying to produce "a surah like it", I suggest you try again P
sugar
As'salaam u'Alykum there,
Um, I agree with Sugar. Simply because we will not even come close to the majesty of the recital (al'quran). That said, here is my rendition of Book 1 of the Psalms of David, Chapter 4. I have added my thoughts along the way, just so that we're clear about the subject, syntax and semantics aside. And, I apologize in advance for the length of what I want to offer for consideration, given... we categorically will not be able to produce a 'surah' the likes of which are in the Quran.
One last comment, since Hadith peddlers are rampant, it is likely, impossible, not to come in contact with one tradition or the other. That's a simple fact. That said, pardon my use of two, one of which this site cherishes very much.
Pardon (the length) and enjoy!
Bismillah Chapter 4
Answer me when I call, Oh Allah of my own right (to call on you)!
you have given me room when I was in distress. Be gracious to me, and hear my prayer.Ya ayu'han nas (O mankind!) how long shall my honour suffer shame? How long will you love vain words, and seek after lies? Salah
But KNOW that Allah has set apart the righteous (salih - believers, "goodly", perhaps further, and I urge caution with using this word flippantly, "godly" Etc.) for the majesty of the most merciful (allah); ALLAh hears when I call to....
Be Angry, but DO NOT SIN; commune with your own hearts on your beds, and be silent (sabr - in Arabic expounds more clearly what David is saying, in my humble opinion). Salah (pray).
Offer right sacrifices, and put your trust in ALlah.
There are many who say, "Oh, that we might see some good!
Lift up the light of your demeanor, calm expression, and honourable majesty (countenance) upon us, ALLAH!"Allah, you have put more joy in my heart than they have when their grain and wine abound.
In peace I will both lie down (awake) and sleep; for you ALONE ALLAH, makest me dwell in safety.
Ameen (amen).
Commentary
Again, Glory to Allah, the creator of all things. Masha'allah for the eloquence and beauty of David and the Psalms which were revealed to him. This is almost exactly the same beauty, if not more of the Qur'an, for those who understand it. It is majestic to put this subtly. When there is plenty, David remembers his creator, all day and night. He says earlier in the Psalms, blessed is he, who contemplates on the "sharia" of Allah. The LAW of Allah. Just to be clear, there is a difference between man made and the original Creator's LAW. I offer you to consider, and myself as well, could it be the same?
English is not succinct relative to Arabic. Arabic, in other words, is more perspicuous, more lucid. Hence, "we" (used in singular form) Muslims (a large and growing community), follow the meaning of why The Merciful, refers to Allah's majesty with those words. 'We' put simply, is the singlar expression of Allah's reference to self. Languages such as Arabic, Hindi, Urdu and various others, even French (for instance the use of 'tu' and 'vous' for "you" more clearly express the majesty of Allah. Arabic is, by far the best, even to a reader who does not know Arabic well enough.
That said, Allah says quiet clearly in the holy recital (Al' Qur'an), which Muhammad (peace on him), uttered to his contemporaries (translated in English as), "And remember David and Solomon when they gave judgement in the matter of the field into which the sheep of certain people had strayed by night We witnessed their judgement. To Solomon We inspired the right understanding of the matter, to each, We GAVE JUDGEMENT AND KNOWLEDGE; it was OUR POWER that made the HILLS and the birds Celebrate OUR PRAISES, it was WE WHO DID ALL" (Chapter 21, verses 78-79).
Further, my edition of the "Yusuf Ali Translation", of what Allah says in the Qur'an; Chapter 2, sign (ayat) 285, goes like this " The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been revealed to him from his rabb (cherisher, sustainer, creator and lord etc.), as do men of faith. Each one (of them who believes in Allah, Allah's angels, Allah's books (The psalms, the proverbs etc.), and Allah's Messengers, SAY, " we make no distinction between one another of Allah's messengers" and they go on to say, "We hear, and we obey (perhaps, as Muslims), as we seek your forgiveness our rabb, as to you is our journey's end.""
This is important for a number of reasons. First David, Solomon and Muhammad were all people of Allah, and so are we. Put differently, they were mankind. You and I... are we not?
The prophet, Muhammad, on him be Allah's peace and blessings, said that life is a journey. Treat it as if you are a traveler on foot (a wayfarer), and take from it only what is necessary for the journey. And in addition, from another popular narration, "spread salaam", OR, SPREAD PEACE.
I leave you with this to consider.
Alykum'asalaam 'wa' Rahmatullah
On you be 'peace 'and' the mercy of AllahAbdul'ghani
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So the challenge is to produce a book like the quran without the help of truth.....? Pretty much a redundant and tautological challenge hey? And it also assumes the truth of the quran... (which the audience being challenged would not accept obviously,or why the challenge?)....At least the old interpretations made some sense,these new ones are very weird.....I think you may have to re-think this one lobby....
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Of course it's redundant. Many of the Quran's verses are. It's like the same thing over and over again sometimes explained in different words. You'd think God needs an editor, but there may be a purpose to that.
The point is, the truth is always from god. Made up stuff is not. If you deny the truth, you are taking up a challenge to bring another truth, another reality, but there's only one reality, so you can't do it.
There's a difference between acquiring knowledge through reason and believing blindly in false idols.