objectivity,Subjectivity and Reality......?
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Peace all. I have noticed some disagreements on the forum stem from people 'arguing' about subjective matters,and arguing over words/semantics/definitions which are subjective/not clarified/not universally agreed upon.....
I would just like some input from members on how they define (from quran or from any other method.) the following three terms,with an example for each term for further clarification...Thanks in advance...1)subjective=...?
2)objective=...?
3)reality=...? -
Peace phoenix. are you sure you are only 16...? You have the wisdom of a 40 year old... bravo I like that definition... Reality bites... yay
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I agree that
Reality = subjective + objective
That is a very good observation.
Objective reality= reality outiside of our opinions, veiws or abilities to percieve reality (the rock exists whether we see it or not, and the falling tree makes a sound whether we hear it or not.)
Subjective reality The conclusions that we make based on our emotions, instincts or even logic, can agree with objective reality or not. Subjective reality is like looking through a looking glass at the world. You can make perfectly right conclusions about what you see throught that looking class, but you can also be completely wrong. It is all about the ability of the tool that you are using, how you use that tool and also your knowledge of the range of that tool at any given time. The fact that subjective reality is just apart of (a subset of) objective reality is in the fact that the tower that you might be looking at through that glass is just as real (whether you see the tower or not) as the fact that you are looking and seeing through that looking glass.
Unfortunately, we will always see through our own looking glasses. When we are trying to be objective we are
trying to explain the aspects of reality that exist whether we are conscious of them or not, and we will always be using our looking glasses, our "third eyes" , our minds. Whether we are right or not depends on the statement that I have above in bold.To do that we have to tune our subjective selves to not be so dependent on emotions which make very simple equations for survival purposes (mostly). Our minds, our instinctual selves, often think in only good and bad. Life=food, Food=good, girl has food, so girl=good. This basic survival logic can keep us from seeing the reality and important specifics of things, which some people call unimportant 'semantics' when they don't want to realize the differences behind these specifics. We have to try to see our object of study without bias, just as it is.
In my opinion subjective opinions are that way because of an investment of some sort, we make conclusions because we don't want to look or feel ignorant, we want to feel secure, etc., etc., we believe in certain ideas and don't want to see them proven wrong or destroyed. They are all extensions of that instinctual animal self and his urge to feel like his is surviving and thriving.
Whereas objective opinions aim to explain reality as it is without regard to feeling secure or the destruction or construction of ideas. We all try to do this, but we, often times, are bound by feelings and values that we have attatched to words or ideas and this prevent us from fully being able to do this. All of us believe in good for instance here and value it. But some people have different equal signs for what equals good. The girl that has the food might have had an axe and tried to kill another person and so the other person thinks axe=hurt/death, axe=bad, girl has axe, so girl=bad. So when all three meet and the person that believes that the girl is bad runs from her or attacks her the person who thinks that the girl is good will defend her, even if these two might have higher common interests. This happens alot with words and ideas when people are talking, and often times the participants keep fighting and are not able to step back and understand that the girl is an entity that can act in good or bad ways and that the axe and apple serve this same purpose as well. By understanding this you define everything in the picture in order to be able to progress with out letting these subjective, emotional values get in the way.
This is a strong human (and animal) instinct. Think about it. You might get hit by someone and you fear them or avoid them everytime you see them again, because you think they are going to hit you again. And your body/mind wilil make you feel fear or even tremble to avoid the person or maybe even attack them. But in actuality, just because they hit you that time doesn't mean that they are going to hit you the next. But that is how you feel. And that is the animal part of man that man must over come through understanding his 3rd eye, his mind, his looking glass and using it right.
As objective as we may try to be we are always limited to our current bank of knowledge or our current state of insight when we make any conclusion. But the fact that we are trying to be objective is what counts, and in my opinion God rewards us for that. However, we have to stop investing so much feeling into our conclusions being final, or even contradicting ourselves by saying that we are trying to be objective and then not accepting the fact that we can be wrong. We have to make conclusions based on what we know at any given time but only God knows all at all times. With our constantly growing abilities we will always find ourselves at any point in time at some limited level when we make conclusions. We could be right, but we could also be dead wrong, and we only find that out as we continue to accept the logic behind reality and and thereby open ourselves up to continue to learn.
Don't get me wrong, 2+2 = 4 and I wouldn't accept anybody to doubt that but whose to say we didn't miss anything or that there may be more than one side to this coin. 2+2 = 1+3, 4+0 and 2+2 even equals 2+2. it can probably equal a myriad of other things, but with all that said it still = 4. That is the way we should veiw the world around us.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace progod.Thank you pro-god....That is a very enlightening account...Lessons to be learnt from it...I agree with nearly all of it...... bravo
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Peace pro-god. I think your post also highlights that 2+2=4 (or an objective statement.) also has different facets/angles to it....showing that sometimes knowledge is not as black and white as we think...
Peace all. ps;2+2=4,but also 2+2=2+2,and 3+1,and 4+0.... bravo -
Peace be upon you,
Objective is that which we can verify through testing
Subjective is that which you cant verify
Example, subjective statement -"its too hot", "its too cold"
objective statement - "it is 50 degrees"
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But Idol free even the subjective can be verified. It just might be too cold for the individual, meaning that he is feeling like the cold is harming him or shouldn't be, based on a standard that his body needs or even that his mind feels it needs. And that standard can be verified. That statement 'too' means that the coldness is being compared to a tempature standard.
As for it being 50 degrees you are right. It may be 50 degrees farenheit, but it could also be 15 degrees celcius, or another amount of degrees kelvin.
Despite all that there is a common level of the temperature, but we have to realize that even that is not a always a blanket statement and that the average temp. might be 50 fareinheit but behind the building, where the wind doesn't blow it it is 53 degrees. That is the nature of reality, the temperature is what it is, no matter what the effect it might have on our minds and bodies, but the temperature itself may also not be as clear cut when looked at specifically.
For all intents and purposes 50 degrees comes as close to truth as we can get, and we have to accept that, because we can't measure the temperature in every place, at one time and even if we could what would we say, "The temperature is 51,52,53,50.34,49.8 . . . " all in one breath. Now that would not be helpful, but understanding that the temperature will not always be exactly the same in every place gives us a very insightful perspective, and most of all keeps us from arguing or being confused when someone reports "It's 51 degrees" and then another person says "No! It's 49.8 degrees." It's not that its not clear its that we are enforcing a standard of clarity that is not realistic.
See what I'm saying?
Godbless,
Anwar -
I think what IdolFree meant is objective statements can be verified by independent parties. For example, "the average temperature for the month of April was 20c" is an objective statement. "I think it's too cold" can't be verified by two people because there's no mutually agreed upon precedent (in case there was, it would be an obj statement. Example too cold = 25c or below, therefore April "was too cold". The point behind subjective statements is they don't need to be verified. This is why subjectivism also deals with the abstract (things like love and honour) and objectivism deals with the empirical.
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Peace be upon you ProGod,
But Idol free even the subjective can be verified.
How so?
It just might be too cold for the individual, meaning that he is feeling like the cold is harming him or shouldn't be, based on a standard that his body needs or even that his mind feels it needs. And that standard can be verified. That statement 'too' means that the coldness is being compared to a tempature standard.
As Neo has already responded, verification is that which can be SEEN/MEASURED by all people, not just the one person. This same person can experience the very same temperature and be hot at another time.
As for it being 50 degrees you are right. It may be 50 degrees farenheit, but it could also be 15 degrees celcius, or another amount of degrees kelvin.
Yes, and none of that changes the fact that it is 50 degrees f.
Despite all that there is a common level of the temperature, but we have to realize that even that is not a always a blanket statement and that the average temp. might be 50 fareinheit but behind the building, where the wind doesn't blow it it is 53 degrees. That is the nature of reality, the temperature is what it is, no matter what the effect it might have on our minds and bodies, but the temperature itself may also not be as clear cut when looked at specifically.
Brother, whatever the temperature is at any given point, it can be objectively measured (how else could you get the number 53?). But subjectively, some people will be cold, others hot, and it is foolish for them to argue about it.
For all intents and purposes 50 degrees comes as close to truth as we can get, and we have to accept that, because we can't measure the temperature in every place, at one time and even if we could what would we say, "The temperature is 51,52,53,50.34,49.8 . . . " all in one breath. Now that would not be helpful, but understanding that the temperature will not always be exactly the same in every place gives us a very insightful perspective, and most of all keeps us from arguing or being confused when someone reports "It's 51 degrees" and then another person says "No! It's 49.8 degrees." It's not that its not clear its that we are enforcing a standard of clarity that is not realistic.
See what I'm saying?
Yes, you are saying that we can verify the objective and not the subjective, which is what I have already said. )
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to idol-free and neo,
It seems that you guys missed what im saying just because you have this spirit of
debate going on. Now what i was saying is that even that subjectivity can be measured. the fact that it is too cold for that person is a fact and the reasons why he feels that way can be measure if researched. that is why they have the wind-chill factor, it is a a general measurement for why you might feel like it is colder when hit by wind then when not. that subjective statement can even be measured. it has no bearing when we are just trying to measure general temperatures but it might have some bearing when we are trying to figure out why we feel colder when the temp is blowing or why 30 degrees is too cold for half of a population, maybe half of the poplulation has anemia, and that can be measured.anyway, i don?t like the way ya?ll especially neo had a quick response that didn?t even understand what i was trying to get at. but that is okay, thats just the nature of the beast.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Brother, whatever the temperature is at any given point, it can be objectively measured (how else could you get the number 53?). But subjectively, some people will be cold, others hot, and it is foolish for them to argue about it.
bro kyle, you?re right about this. and i never argued you on this. people are still gonna feel what they feel. and the fact that its subjective ?won?t stop the arguing, because we come to know through a combination effort between our senses and our minds. it would be like arguing with a schizonfrenic that what he sees isnt real. what he sees is real, and there is a measureable reason behind it, just like the fact that someone feels cold or heat, when the temperature is constant. but its better instead of arguing with a person about what he feels trying to say it is 53 degrees, and that is a moderate temp. to say that it is 53 degrees but you feel like you do because . . .
that is all i was saying. even the subjective is verifiable and measurable it just usually has different implications and is the piece of the puzzle that doesn?t seem to fit because even thought it looks like it goes in the middle it really goes all the way in the corner somewhere. you see what im saying
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace be upon you ProGod,
Do not be insulted by responses, we are here to debate towards truth, respectfully.
With that said, I am not following your logic. Only that which is measurable can be measured, and to be measurable it has to be OBJECTIVE, that is , an OBJECT. That which is subjective has no objects in it to measure. In regards to Neo's last e-mail, wind is an object and the effects of wind can be measured, so can thoughts which are also objects, and we can measure your brain wave activity and so on.
But the point that is being missed I think is that TRUTH is that which is measured the same by everyone, there is an objective standard. The ancients spoke of truth by saying "Today as yesterday, tommorrow as today". Truth does not change. And Facts are not the same as Truth, truth deals with relationships.
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Our ability to measure depends on the tools we have. In the past brain-waves could have been considered a subjective thing because it couldn't be viewed as an object but only as an intangible concept. This I believe is the same with all things. All things can be measured if you have the right tools, hate, love, wind, etc. Hate and love are just feelings based off of chemicals and chemical impressions. In my view of the world all things are material just as they are spiritual. Your hand is a spiritual and physical unit at the same time. Imagine it like this if you break your hand down to its smallest part it is just energy, intangible and maybe not even be measurable depending on the tools that we have. The closest analogy that I can think of is imagining an angel, a spiritual unit, able to organize itself in a way so that it can be become physical or intangible, just like the energy behind every atom and every electron. If I'm right in the Egyptian philosophy all things are vibrations. The lower the vibration means the more physical it is and the higher the vibration means the more spiritual(intangible) it is.
do you see what I'm getting at? The subjective is a part of the objective world as well. Just like the video game or the computer program looks like people and rooms, etc., but it is really just numbers and code, electricity and signals.
You see where I'm coming from. That video game is just as real as you, it just has to be put into proper context.Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace pro-god and all. I have had the view that you have posted for some time now....It explains why scientists cannot identify/locate the soul or conciousness,YET....And why so-called 'objective' evidence doesnt explain everything,eg ESP or near-death-experiences...
One thing though,where does 'incorrect thinking',or 'illusionary thinking' fit into this...?
I think idol-free is talking about 'specific' or 'different' definitions of objective and subjective?
Peace all. ps; this view also explains intuition as similiar to being in touch with 'a heightened sense of reality'....In other words,its not all about mountains of evidence to prove something is valid.....You can verify the subjective......just that its hard to convince others of your verifications...... I verify i love mint chocolate ice-cream,dont ask me for an external proof of this fact.... -
Peace be upon you,
Our ability to measure depends on the tools we have.
Absolutely, if we dont have a scale we can measure a pound of sand, but that does not make sand subjective.
In the past brain-waves could have been considered a subjective thing because it couldn't be viewed as an object but only as an intangible concept. This I believe is the same with all things. All things can be measured if you have the right tools, hate, love, wind, etc. Hate and love are just feelings based off of chemicals and chemical impressions.
That precisely the point, "hate" and "love" are subjective, chemical reactions and energy responses are objective and can be measuredm but whateve is measured, one person wil call it "love" and the other "hate", do you see the difference here? They will both have to agree on the chemical or energy calculation because that is objective, but that wont prevent them from continuing to argue about the subjective aspect which is the words "love" and "hate". Its just like the measurement of the thermometer, we can measure 50 degrees, but one will call that "hot" and the other "cold".
In my view of the world all things are material just as they are spiritual.
There is the subjective realm of no things, then there is the objective realm where energy/matter is put into forms. The objective realm is further divided into the physical and metaphysical. Metaphysical includes things like thoughts and imagination, physical is that which is observable. So material and spiritual things are still on teh objective side of things.
Your hand is a spiritual and physical unit at the same time.
Agreed, the physical is the densest part of spirit.
Imagine it like this if you break your hand down to its smallest part it is just energy, intangible and maybe not even be measurable depending on the tools that we have. The closest analogy that I can think of is imagining an angel, a spiritual unit, able to organize itself in a way so that it can be become physical or intangible, just like the energy behind every atom and every electron. If I'm right in the Egyptian philosophy all things are vibrations. The lower the vibration means the more physical it is and the higher the vibration means the more spiritual(intangible) it is.
All of the objective realm is spiitual, the faster the vibration the less physical.
do you see what I'm getting at? The subjective is a part of the objective world as well. Just like the video game or the computer program looks like people and rooms, etc., but it is really just numbers and code, electricity and signals.
You see where I'm coming from. That video game is just as real as you, it just has to be put into proper context.The subjective realm is the ORIGIN of the objective realm, yes i agree with that. But we cannot measure subjective because it is the realm of no objects, and yuo need objects to measure things. The God is subjective, which is why you cannot divide or multiply the God, there is no beginning or end. Only ONE.
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we can measure 50 degrees, but one will call that "hot" and the other "cold".
But to understand the truth of this is to understand that it is both hot and cold. Because both individuals has a
real, objective reason for feeling that way, and that reason is the relationship that their bodies or minds have with
the 50 degree temperature. You also should understand the 50 degrees is a conjured up concept from the human mind. Yes, the heat level is one thing in one place, and we call that 50 degrees by coming up with a consistent system that can represent what we feel as temperature changes. But there are objective reasons for why one person will call that cold and why another will call it hot, and both are right. I think that understanding that is understanding the higher level of truth, which can SEEM to contradict, because you might say how can it be hot and cold at the same time if they are opposites? Like you said hot and cold are ideas that are dependent on the relationship that one has between his body or mind and the actual temperature. But it is just as objective that the one person is feeling cold as the other is feeling hot, just as it is 50 degrees. The reality however for the person is more complex than just measuring a temperature, and I'm sure if we looked we could find out what is that objective limit that makes a person feel cold or hot. But then again if I'm in an area that is 130 degrees and the temp. drops to 80 degrees I may feel cold, and if enough people agree with me for that moment it is cold.I don't exactly know how to explain to you what I'm saying, but basically its not that the feeling of hot and cold is not verifiable, it is because it is a more complex truth built off of other truths, or a more complex relationship built off of other relationships, and therefore has to be put into proper context.
Enquirer I think you understood what I'm saying exactly. Things can be very real but not understood as objective because it takes too much to verify it, its reality is very complicated because like I said above it is built off of various levels of relationships with external, objective things. Maybe, Enquirer said it right. You are talking about internal and external truth and not so much about objective and subjective truth.
Godbless,
Anwar