Is following a book that one thinks is from God idolatry?
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Peace
Peace open-mind and mquran and all. To be sure i can see some differences between sunni methodology and quran only methodology.....However i also see a general pattern,.....veneration of hadith/prophet switches to veneration of quran/quranic interpretations........Rather than putting the quran high up on a shelf,some members put it high up in their 'minds' without conforming its full verification,and without making a full study of the world reality around them.....
I don't fully understand what you mean by this, please elaborate.
It also seems to me there are a lot of 'self-styled quranic scholars' who think they know the CORRECT quranic definitions and interpretations....When in reality they either admit,or are unaware of their subjectivity in beliefs and interpretations.......
First of all, the very definition of "interpretation" implies subjectivity, so logically, there is no "correct interpretation."
Second, the very purpose of this forum is to discuss different interpretations of the Qur'an. I don't understand where you're coming up with this stuff.
My SUBJECTIVE opinion,
As opposed to your objective opinion..? ???
is that there is SOMETIMES an inferiority complex,and the quran makes people feel good,and can make people feel better than others....It is like an emotional crutch that they can refer to in all debates and instances.....
Care to elaborate, please?
Just a pity that all the differing interpretations and arguments have rendered this text SUBJECTIVE.........
25 years? Ouch.
Firstly, I'd like to point out that us having different interpretations of the Qur'an does not make the Qur'an subjective. Rather, us having interpretations makes us subjective, obviously for the reason that we have different interpretations. I hope you can see this.
Secondly, do you not see how are your logic is fallacious? Are you saying a text HAS to be objective in order to be valid? Because everyone in the world doesn't agree on a single "interpretation," the Qur'an is automatically invalid?
You are always full of surprises with your "arguments," oh wise and older-than-me enquirer.
Now if folks could agree loosely on the underlying morals,
I'm certain that on major Qur'anic morals we agree. To understand how, you must first understand the construction of Qur'anic verses (this is where your 25 years kicks in ). Let's look at verse 37 for a little help.
Verse 37 states that the Qur'an contains two different types of verses "ayatun muhkamatun" or "firmly constructed/definite/unambiguous verses/signs" and verses that are "mutashabihatun" or "susceptible to various interpretations" (which in itself dismisses your aforementioned argument completely, by the way). Now, moving on to morals. Morals brought forth in the Qur'an are certainly a part of "ayatun muhkamatun." For example
You shall not commit adultery; it is a gross sin, and an evil behavior.
This verse is not susceptible to various interpretation. It tells us to not commit adultery, and there's no way around that; no other interpretation. This, obviously is a major moral of the Qur'an. And all other major Qur'anic morals are brought forth through "ayatun muhkamatun." Surely, we all agree on them.
If you mean something else by the above quote, please explain.
and then PRACTICE them mindfully and without dogma,they might actually be on to something.....
You do not know who practices them and who does not.
And why does dogma matter? If the morals are being practiced, why does it matter what the source was? Don't force your ideas unto others.
Some of the members are already wise enough to have already done this......
Again, how would you know this? If some have? If most have? Or if all have? You do not know. Sorry.
Maybe some need to let go of the dogma,
Maybe some need to let go of what others do. -\
(those of you that argue over words/concepts/dogmas rather than meanings/practicalities/morals.)
and contribute PRACTICALLY to peace in the world...Ok..
Peace.
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Peace open-mind and mquran and all. To be sure i can see some differences between sunni methodology and quran only methodology.....
Everybody on three...one, two, HALLELUJA ! It only 3 months plus the 25 years plus 5 years plus god knows how long.
However i also see a general pattern,.....veneration of hadith/prophet switches to veneration of quran/quranic interpretations........Rather than putting the quran high up on a shelf,some members put it high up in their 'minds' without conforming its full verification,and without making a full study of the world reality around them.....
Al-quraan is proven by the on-going events in the world. Humankind cannot escape its prophecies but it DOES NOT conform to the ideals of the world. You can either stick to it or not, that's your business.
It also seems to me there are a lot of 'self-styled quranic scholars' who think they know the CORRECT quranic definitions and interpretations....When in reality they either admit,or are unaware of their subjectivity in beliefs and interpretations.......
Well, I can't speak for others but I can say this about myself. My interpretation is the best I can produce using the current knowledge I have. It may certainly evolve - or for that matter devolve - but not by the current methods YOU employ which is essentially non-discussion.
My SUBJECTIVE opinion,is that there is SOMETIMES an inferiority complex,and the quran makes people feel good,and can make people feel better than others....It is like an emotional crutch that they can refer to in all debates and instances.....Just a pity that all the differing interpretations and arguments have rendered this text SUBJECTIVE.........
Subjectivity is made existent by the presence of a SUBJECT. Objectivity is the opposite, when only the OBJECT exists. That is why you never dare to answer my 'what is barbaric' inquiry. You cannot escape subjecitivity either.
Al-quraan for me helps me interpret my life. I don't see how its an emotional crutch. My own participation in my life is a requirement and no amount of reading and debate will save my butt on j-day. If you had really read al-quraan, you'd know this.
Now if folks could agree loosely on SOME the underlying morals,and then PRACTICE them mindfully and without dogma,they might actually be on to something.....Some of the members are already wise enough to have already done this......
Sigh...once again, its not a matter of agreement. I couldnt care less who agrees with me as long as I know that I am sincere in my study, that's what matters.
Maybe some need to let go of the dogma, (those of you that argue over words/concepts/dogmas rather than meanings/practicalities/morals.) and contribute PRACTICALLY to peace in the world...
I wonder sometimes what goes on in your mind. A 'dogma' is a belief one carries through adoption of a group. Al-quraan doesn't approve of this but you seem to think it does. When will the insults stop, i wonder?
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peace mcquran
they won't dude. Learn to ignore it
I just think it's pretty funny to say
'is following a book that one think is from God idolatry"
Yeah specially when the book denounces any form of idolatry. Makes a whole lot of sense!
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I just think it's pretty funny to say
'is following a book that one think is from God idolatry"
Yeah specially when the book denounces any form of idolatry. Makes a whole lot of sense!
Exactly, it is about time to have a laugh
cheers
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I am to look at my heart in order to know whether I idolize the Quran or not. If my psychological/emotional attachment with the Quran is similar in nature to that what should be the case for Allah, then I should rectify my attitude. My relation with the Quran should be judged in similar fashion as I relate myself with this beautiful and true universe which is the creation of the same Allah who spoke to man through Quran. The Quran is Allah?s speech and the universe is His creation while both are signs of Allah. One appeared as speech, the other as creation while speaking and creating are two acts of Allah or two attributes of Allah.
Allah created the universe for Man, likewise Allah spoke to Man for the welfare of Man; and Man is for Allah. Man is not for His creation, likewise Man is not for His speech. I think the proper place of universe and Quran is man?s intellect and the proper place for Allah is Man?s heart. We should clean our heart from everything other than the real unseen Allah. We should deal with the universe and the Quran with intellect. We can advance towards Allah with only submission, adoration, love and passion. We should deal with universe and the Quran with logic, understanding, analysis, but not with love and passion.
In fact, Allah is not obtainable with intellect, heart is made with that ability. On the other hand, the universe and the Quran can only be obtained by intellect. Intellect?s structure is such.
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I think I should address farther in order to avoid confusion regarding love for the believers, human beings, all living creatures, environment or the entire universe or the Quran or the Prophet etc.
A submitter to God loves God alone. The submitter feels a kind of compassion and affection and sympathy for the rest. He spreads his wings over them for their protection and welfare. He does it as the result of his love for Allah. He does not try to approach Allah through loving his neighbors, rather he approaches his neighbors through Allah.
What I am trying to express is that a submitter?s love for God alone overflows towards God?s creation as compassion. This compassion is not blind and is ruled by intellect. With the dictates of wisdom and reason, he deals and behaves with them in appropriate manner. He ?loves? his wife and as well as his friend?s wife but behaves differently as appropriate.
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Salaams all,
when we stone people to death, cut their limbs,kill people for changing their faith,marry women to the quran,allow shorthold agreement in marriege and all the rest because of the book - in such cases IS IT IDOLATRY??
There are people doing all these according to how they have understood it.
Idolatory plain and simple.
Salaams.
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Peace
Salaams all,
when we stone people to death, cut their limbs,kill people for changing their faith,marry women to the quran,allow shorthold agreement in marriege and all the rest because of the book - in such cases IS IT IDOLATRY??
There are people doing all these according to how they have understood it.
Idolatory plain and simple.
Salaams.
I think we can safely say that those things are hugely influenced by hadith.
And my original point was that following a book you think is from God is not idolatry.
- Idolatry is putting people/things beside God
- We believe the Qur'an is from God aka God's words.
- If we follow the Qur'an, we are 100% following God (because of our belief mentioned in premise 2)
- Therefore, we are not idolizing the Qur'an, since the Qur'an is from God.
Let's replace "Qur'an" with "God's words" as I stated before. So far, this is perfectly logical, because again, we believe it to be from God. Their (not naming names) claim is "You idolize God's words (Qur'an)." This is completely contradictory.
I hope people who say these things will realize that no matter how much we study and read and discuss the Qur'an, it will never be idolatry, as I pointed out. This is not my opinion. This is just mere objectivity.
Peace
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when we stone people to death, cut their limbs,kill people for changing their faith,marry women to the quran,allow shorthold agreement in marriege and all the rest because of the book
I believe you are confusing Quran with Hadith
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Hey Br's
don't you reckon they follow the hadith because they think they should according to their understandings of the quran?
almost the entire present muslims!
God Bless all.
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Peace Simple
I would say they mold the quran according to their understanding of hadith and not the other way around. They believe the quran is vague and not understandable, so we need an appendix to decipher it, i.e. the hadith. Whatever the hadith claims, they'll find some aya to distort beyond recognition to fit it.
So in my opinion, they're idolizing bukhari and co. and not quran in any way, shape, or form since none of those 'laws' you mentioned are derived from quran - but rather hadith.
Peace
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Peace simple
Hey Br's
don't you reckon they follow the hadith because they think they should according to their understandings of the quran?
almost the entire present muslims!
God Bless all.
Firstly, I'd like to point out that when extremists try to manipulate verses to fit their desired interpretations, that doesn't make the Qur'an wrong, it makes them wrong.
Secondly, there's a huge difference between what we are saying and what you are saying. Let's take stoning people for example. Saying "stoning people as a result of one's understanding of the Qur'an is bad" is different than saying "stoning people as a result of the hadith which are caused by one's understanding of the Qur'an." The direct cause of the stoning is the hadith, not the Qur'an. Sure, the Qur'an, in essence, plays some role. But it's not the direct cause. In situations like this, it has to be the direct cause, or else it holds no fault. We can't blame the Qur'an for something the hadith says (which sometimes goes against the Qur'an) to do.
Peace.
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Peace Simple
I would say they mold the quran according to their understanding of hadith and not the other way around. They believe the quran is vague and not understandable, so we need an appendix to decipher it, i.e. the hadith. Whatever the hadith claims, they'll find some aya to distort beyond recognition to fit it.
So in my opinion, they're idolizing bukhari and co. and not quran in any way, shape, or form since none of those 'laws' you mentioned are derived from quran - but rather hadith.
Peace
That's a very good point, and I completely agree.
Peace
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Salaams Br's,
well to be honest-which we try to be here , we cannot disregard what they say simply because we think so .
They say the quran is saying "do what allah says and what the prophet says" , and i believe that is their belief irrespective whether its faulty or not.And i think that is ,as you agree, idolatory isn't it as its leading to manmade laws in the hadith's and whatever?And that is being based on their understandings or what they are being taught , and they arn't just a handfull there are billions of them.
God Bless.
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Salaams Br's,
well to be honest-which we try to be here , we cannot disregard what they say simply because we think so .
They say the quran is saying "do what allah says and what the prophet says" , and i believe that is their belief irrespective whether its faulty or not.And i think that is ,as you agree, idolatory isn't it as its leading to manmade laws in the hadith's and whatever?And that is being based on their understandings or what they are being taught , and they arn't just a handfull there are billions of them.
God Bless.
Oh, I didn't completely understand what you were saying. Of course, I totally agree with you.
Peace
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And my original point was that following a book you think is from God is not idolatry.
- Idolatry is putting people/things beside God
- We believe the Qur'an is from God aka God's words.
- If we follow the Qur'an, we are 100% following God (because of our belief mentioned in premise 2)
- Therefore, we are not idolizing the Qur'an, since the Qur'an is from God.
peace OpenMind,
that is not logical at all.
Your following of the quran is coming from the belief that the quran is God's words.
Whether the quran is your idol or not depends on what your "belief" is based on. Whether it is blind belief or based on reason. -
Peace Phoenix,
Sorry for answering while you were addressing OpenMind but I'd like to ask you a question. You're implying that OpenMind is coming from blind faith because he/she believes that it is God's Words. Your alternative is to believe with 'reason'. What reason do you have to believe it is not God's Words? I think that is the crux of the matter. If you truly believe that the quran is not God's Words, then you would conclude that it is idolatry to follow the laws set forth in the quran. And if you don't believe the quran is the truth then how do you follow any of God's Laws?
Peace all
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And my original point was that following a book you think is from God is not idolatry.
- Idolatry is putting people/things beside God
- We believe the Qur'an is from God aka God's words.
- If we follow the Qur'an, we are 100% following God (because of our belief mentioned in premise 2)
- Therefore, we are not idolizing the Qur'an, since the Qur'an is from God.
peace OpenMind,
that is not logical at all.
It's 100% logical.
Your following of the quran is coming from the belief that the quran is God's words.
My following of the Qur'an is coming from the miraculous evidence, consistency, and great appeal to my logic within the Qur'an which leads me to the belief that is God's words.
Whether the quran is your idol or not depends on what your "belief" is based on. Whether it is blind belief or based on reason.
Following the Qur'an blindly is wrong, I completely agree. But I hope I made myself clear with my above statement. My belief in the Qur'an is greatly derived from reason. In fact, I sometimes feel guilty for not having enough "faith" in the Qur'an; that is how miraculous it is.
Peace
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peace
My following of the Qur'an is coming from the miraculous evidence, consistency, and great appeal to my logic within the Qur'an which leads me to the belief that is God's words.
If you had added that to it then it would be 100% logical.
It's blind faith, not faith, that i have a problem with. And don't have "faith" in the Quran, have "faith" in its message.
peace