Is it possible to be a muslim in a non-muslim country?
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Salaams Br.
Any democratic or free country .
Where people do least shirk or at least not practically.
Salaam.
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Peace
I would say it is possible to live anywhere where there is least opression. If I can't do what I deem fit to do (as long as I am not hurting my fellow man) then I must conform to whoever has authority over me. That would force me to fear others besides Allah and follow others. Then, I am at the whim of whoever happens to be in power at the time. And if they don't like 'maazlamz' then I'm even further opressed by a label placed on me. The key is to be free of opression. Conformity for the sake of conformity leads down a dangerous path.
Peace -
It is possible by one to submit to Allah while he is in the house of Pharaoh, but he shall not get the socio-political protection of Moses. On the other hand, it is possible to get the protection of Moses by the hypocrites who are not the submitters in the eyes of Allah.
Allah looks at hearts from within, man looks at behavior from without. It is because of the difference in Allah?s knowledge and human knowledge. It is the responsibility of an individual to submit to Allah from true sense of it. Others can only help him to know how to submit and can provide him a favorable environment for it. On the other hand, the Muslims are also responsible to call upon people to submit to Allah and to evolve their socio-cultural face. The Muslims have no other choice in discharging this group responsibility other than establishing a political system based on behavioristic point of view proclamation of faith and overt obedience to the political system.
So no one can prevent any one from submitting to Allah wherever he may live, and no one can guarantee success to anybody even if he lives in a true Muslim society as a ?Muslim?.
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Peace Prashant
I would have to disagree. If it were possible for the children of Israel to live under Pharoah's rule, there would not be the command from God to leave the country. This is not a commandment of Moses, but a commandment of God. In fact, we are commanded to leave a land if we fear opression because God's green earth is wide and expansive. While nobody can force you to follow God's deen, it is quite possible to be forced to not follow God's deen. When laws and consequences of breaking those laws reflect anti-deen behavior, this would be considered opression. There are countries in this world today that follow a twisted interpretation of the quran and thereby deny people the right to live as they choose. There are other countries, who in the name of secularism have denied others the right to practice deen as they see fit. An example would be the ban on hijab. While I personally do not believe the covering of one's hair is mandatory, others may choose to exercise their right to interpret the commandment of modesty to the best of their knowledge. Opression is worse than murder.
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Allah looks at hearts from within, man looks at behavior from without.
I agree with Prashant on this one. A muslim is a muslim wherever he/she is. Sure tumult and oppression is worse than murder, sure we are encouraged to migrate from a place of opression, but I disagree that this is a MUST. The problem comes in when a person/people claim/s that they were oppressed hence they became non-believers, or had trouble staying on the path, and such. The God tells us, even if we are forced to do something, as long as there is no disobedience or transgression on our part, there is no sin on us.Many messengers from before lived among the worst of disbelievers, yet they persevered to deliver God's message. God's direct command for them to leave usually followed with the annihilation of the rejectors.
One could live in the most peaceful place on earth (if there is such a thing), and still have unrest in their hearts and cause mischief. The opposite is also true.
Peace )
- Whoever rejects God after having believed; except for one who is forced while his heart is still content with belief; and has opened his chest to rejection, then they will have a wrath from God and they will have a great retribution.
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Peace Prashant, Peace Zenje,
Actually now that you put it that way I do agree with you and Prashant. Nobody can change what is inside, no matter how opressed you are. But the deen is a way of life, and it's not enough to just believe in things. As a Muslim we have a duty upon mankind to perform certain actions, for ourselves and for others. Deen is a package deal. If I am not allowed to act upon what I believe in, my deen is jeapordized. In that case, I would say we would be judged on why we never left in order to ensure that our deen remains complete. But yes now that I reread yours and Prashant's posts I would rephrase that opression cannot ever lead to kufr, but can cause a hindrance on my will to choose to lead my life the way I want (i.e. God's way). We were born free and anyone who takes that away from me shouldn't be enterained with my allegience.
Peace all -
One point for clarification.
The issue of migration from the land of tyranny and bondage to a land of justice and freedom is a complex one. Appropriate leadership and arrangements is one most important factor for determination. There is other determining factors and variables too.
For the case of Moses, all Jews in Egypt were to join Moses to migrate from Pharaoh?s land. But the case was not same for the wife of Pharaoh.
It was obligatory for Muslims to migrate to Medina during the time of the Prophet Muhammad when he was at Medina or was about to leave Mecca. But the Prophet too had to handover some Muslims to the enemies according to the treaty.
The redemption against mistakenly killing a Muslim belonging to the enemies and a Muslim belonging to a government under peace-treaty are not same.
At present, the most important thing is that we should think and make proper arrangements for our development as Muslims and our future generations as practicable and effective as possible.
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JMIs it possible to be a muslim in a non-muslim country?
I'd like to add to Prashant's insightful view here. Musa and his people were in the house of Firaun which is the non-muslim country. As long as they were struggling against it (10/87- with the establishment of their own systems against it).
S2S I would have to disagree. If it were possible for the children of Israel to live under Pharoah's rule, there would not be the command from God to leave the country. This is not a commandment of Moses, but a commandment of God. In fact, we are commanded to leave a land if we fear opression because God's green earth is wide and expansive.
If you read the narration in al-araaf, you will find that the Children of Israil inherited Egypt (7/137).
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Salaam All
According to verse 497, it is a MUST to migrate from oppression
"As for those whom the angels take in death, the angels say in what condition were you? They reply we were oppressed on the earth. The angels say was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein? Such people will find their abode in hell - what an evil destination"!
One should migrate from oppression and unfairness. This could happen in a country claiming to be Muslim and might not happen in a secular one. Just look at the condition of human rights in Muslim countries and in secular Europe (at the individual level at least). Allah knows that and He tells us in verse 494
" O you who believe! When you migrate in the cause of Allah, do not say to any one who grants you peace (you are not a believer); seeking the perishable goods of the worldly life whereas there are much more benefits and booties with Allah. Even as he is now (i.e non believer) so were you yourselves before untill Allah conferred on you His favours; therefore be cautious . Allah is ever well-aware of what you do".
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Many thanks to everyone for you replies.
It seems that you all agree that a muslim can live everywhere, but that if he is oppressed, he must emigrate and settle himself elsewhere.
This leads me to 2 set of questions
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What is exactly oppression? Is preventing girls from wearing hijab at school oppression?
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Is there no other option to emigration? Where to emigrate? Are some concessions possible? Is fighting the oppressor one possible option?
Peace
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A nearer to the expression in the Quraan is (those taken advantage of because they are weak/helpless); and this should result in a behaviour by the "oppressed" which is against the commandments of Allah for example false testemony, embazzlement; torturing or murdering others; restriction on the freedom of expression (imagine the case of Dr. Mansour and Dr. Abu Zeid in Egypt, pressurising people through economic hardship, just to mention a few examples). Behaviour resulting from giving in to these pressures will be challenged by the angels and will result in sending those people to hell no excuses of (I was just doing my job; or my boss would have killed me if I did not do it).
Would the Angels ask this person why she did not wear hijab? I think their question would be who told you to wear the hijab?
As for fighting the oppressor, I believe it depends on the circumstances and on the strength of each party; that's why Allah orders us to emigrate if we cannot change the situation to our benefit.
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According to verse 497, it is a MUST to migrate from oppression
"As for those whom the angels take in death, the angels say in what condition were you? They reply we were oppressed on the earth. The angels say was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein? Such people will find their abode in hell - what an evil destination"!
Respectfully, I disagree, mainly because of 498"Except for those who were oppressed from the men, women, and children who could not devise a plan nor could be guided to a way."
I'm curious, could someone give me an example of a country (other than Israel/Palestine situation), where muslims are opressed and then the "muslim" country they would go to.
Thanks. peace
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peace all,
brother mquran wrote
I'd like to add to Prashant's insightful view here. Musa and his people were in the house of Firaun which is the non-muslim country. As long as they were struggling against it (10/87- with the establishment of their own systems against it).
also this believer who hid his faith
And a believing man of Firon's people who hid his faith said What! will you slay a man because he says My Lord is Allah, and indeed he has brought to you clear arguments from your Lord? And if he be a liar, on him will be his lie, and if he be truthful, there will befall you some of that which he threatens you (with); surely Allah does not guide him who is extravagant, a liar 4028.peace peace
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Peace all,
'm curious, could someone give me an example of a country (other than Israel/Palestine situation), where muslims are opressed and then the "muslim" country they would go to.
I wouldn't go to a muslim country to get away from opression .. that's kinda laughable rotfl the thought of it - not your question lol
I wouldn't say migrating would be a must but it is strongly encouraged to work on it. If you had the means and the way out, I think at that point it would be a must. Of course if you can't God can't possibly hold that against you.
Peace -
When Moses demanded to let his people be freed, the serious problem rose. The Jews tortured Jesus. But Jesus never thought of taking, leaving his people, any asylum to the Roman Caesar.
(1) Migration to save life from a tyrannical Government and (2) migration as a part of a program to lead the movement by a Prophet to victory are different in nature. Migration of Moses and Muhammad had an aim of the second type. Migration of some Muslims to Ethiopia was of the first type. In the case of type (1) it is of temporary nature. The migrated one always look for returning to his land.
I do not consider that America and Europe are enemies of Sunnis and Shias only and they are friends of ?true worshipers of God?. Every age has Pharaohs. Every civilization has Pharaohs. Who are they in our time? Who are the greatest ones in our time? Who are the biggest tyrants for wealth and power on world basis.
Allah knows the best which individual actually migrates and fights for what.
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Peace prashant
When Moses demanded to let his people be freed, the serious problem rose. The Jews tortured Jesus.
You're talking about two separate time eras with two separate groups of people. Yes, they were all bani israel but those who followed Moses out of Egypt had long perished by the time Jesus came.
- Migration to save life from a tyrannical Government and (2) migration as a part of a program to lead the movement by a Prophet to victory are different in nature.
They are one and the same. The prophet and his people were granted victory over their oppressors because Pharoah transgressed beyond the boundaries set forth by God. He was arrogant and caused mischief in the land, namely oppressing a group of their citizens. Victory is for the oppressed, the victimized, the ones made weak by others' domination over them thru arrogance.
Migration of Moses and Muhammad had an aim of the second type.
Here are some ayat to prove that it was because of oppression that they were given victory and a way out of their torture.
And We made the children of Israel to pass through the sea, then Firon and his hosts followed them for oppression and tyranny; until when drowning overtook him, he said I believe that there is no god but He in Whom the children of Israel believe and I am of those who submit.
And when We delivered you from Firon's people, who subjected you to severe torment, killing your sons and sparing your women, and in this there was a great trial from your Lord.
But none believed in Musa except the offspring of his people, on account of the fear of Firon and their chiefs, lest he should persecute them; and most surely Firon was lofty in the land; and most surely he was of the extravagant.
14.6] And when Musa said to his people Call to mind Allah's favor to you when He delivered you from Firon's people, who subjected you to severe torment, and slew your sons and spared your women; and in this there was a great trial from your Lord.
Surely Firon exalted himself in the land and made its people into parties, weakening one party from among them; he slaughtered their sons and let their women live; surely he was one of the mischiefmakers.
And certainly We revealed to Musa, saying Travel by night with My servants, then make for them a dry path in the sea, not fearing to be overtaken, nor being afraid.
In the case of type (1) it is of temporary nature. The migrated one always look for returning to his land.
That's true, the children of israel wanted to turn back.
Recall that you said, "O Moses, we can no longer tolerate one kind of food. Call upon your Lord to produce for us such earthly crops as beans, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions." He said, "Do you wish to substitute that which is inferior for that which is good? Go down to Egypt, where you can find what you asked for." They have incurred condemnation, humiliation, and disgrace, and brought upon themselves wrath from GOD. This is because they rejected GOD's revelations, and killed the prophets unjustly. This is because they disobeyed and transgressed.
As we see here, the people wanted what they missed in Egypt, but that doesn't equate that this is God's Way. God's Way, as stated by Musa was to tread on and not be ungrateful for the escape that God gave them out of a land of oppression.
I do not consider that America and Europe are enemies of Sunnis and Shias only and they are friends of ?true worshipers of God?. Every age has Pharaohs.
I agree. They are not enemies of muslims. As for the U.S., the government doesn't seem to be doing too well on the issue of oppression these days.
Peace all