Can you PROVE that God's previous scriptures have been corrupted?
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peace
Saladin, does the quran NEED to tell you that the Bible is a collection of stuff that has nothing to do with God's message? if one reads it with an open mind, it is obvious to one that stuff has been added on to what the original book was.As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.Yes, i agree.
Bible .... just read few first pages and you'll see who added what.
No offence to the christians but we need to talk to them in a nice manner like we are told.As salamu alaykum.
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peace
Saladin, does the quran NEED to tell you that the Bible is a collection of stuff that has nothing to do with God's message? if one reads it with an open mind, it is obvious to one that stuff has been added on to what the original book was.As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.Yes, i agree.
Bible .... just read few first pages and you'll see who added what.and just read 568, it commands to uphold the Taurat and the Injeel revealed by Allah . how can one do it if they are corrupt ? thus Bible is not the Taurat/Injeel . Bible is a man-made book to begin with .
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it's logical man, I'm sure Allah will not appoint crooks to be His messengers and perfetc examples to humanity.
This is begging the question. This may be valid only if one first assumes that the Quran is from God and Muhammad was the Prophet. One may proceed in the reverse direction. If Muhammad is not a crook, if Muhammad possesses perfect and exemplary character, then only one may consider his claim of prophethood.
The question still remains Is it possible to find in history the facts of the ?perfect example to humanity??
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it's logical man, I'm sure Allah will not appoint crooks to be His messengers and perfetc examples to humanity.
This is begging the question. This may be valid only if one first assumes that the Quran is from God and Muhammad was the Prophet. One may proceed in the reverse direction. If Muhammad is not a crook, if Muhammad possesses perfect and exemplary character, then only one may consider his claim of prophethood.
The question still remains Is it possible to find in history the facts of the perfect example to humanity?
Mate, there is only one whop claimed to the be the Author of the Quran, who is Allah, now when you bring the others who you allege that are the authors then you will have an argument until then the Quran will stay the words of Allah because He is the only one to have claimed as such, for your argument to be successful, we need someone to challenge Allah and say that the Quran is someone's else work and they must bring or at least tell us who is that mystrious man or men
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Mate, there is only one whop claimed to the be the Author of the Quran, who is Allah, now when you bring the others who you allege that are the authors then you will have an argument until then the Quran will stay the words of Allah because He is the only one to have claimed as such, for your argument to be successful, we need someone to challenge Allah and say that the Quran is someone's else work and they must bring or at least tell us who is that mystrious man or men
exactly .
The question still remains Is it possible to find in history the facts of the perfect example to humanity?
we are not supposed to find it in history . we find it in the Koran .
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and just read 568, it commands to uphold the Taurat and the Injeel revealed by Allah . how can one do it if they are corrupt ? thus Bible is not the Taurat/Injeel . Bible is a man-made book to begin with .
Please let your interpretation be known to members here bro.
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Peace All
The argument presented by brother Saladin does not make sense ?sorry brother Saladin?
568 is not really telling Ahl Al Kitab to follow the Tourat and Ingil at the time of the prophet, because simply this will constitute a clear contradiction within the mission of the prophet, it is obvious that the message of the prophet for Ahl Al Kitab is to follow the Quran not the Tourat or the Bible, 568 is simply telling us that Allah said to Hhis prophet to tell Ahl Al Kitab that they will not be believers until they uphold the tourat, injil and Al Quran ?Wa Ma Onzil Ilaikum?, therefore the verses clearly means that what should be upheld is the uncorrupted versions of those three books, remember who is saying this to them?, IT IS MOHAMMAD and his message is the one that must be followed,
The Quran also told the Muslims to believe in the Tourat and Injil, would that means to believe in the corrupted versions?, of course not , however to find an uncorrupted version of the Tourat and Injil during the time of the prophet and up to this moment is impossible, but that does not mean that there is many uncorrupted passages in the current versions of these two scriptures
Remember that Allah told us that we will read the name Ahmad in the Tourat, this is indeed true with the current corrupt version of it
Salam
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Peace,
If you read the Scripture delivered by Mohammed, then you will notice that within its pages is a repeat of the laws that were revealed to the Jews and Nazarines and why it was done so (such as the Sabaath, not eating meat mixed with fat. etc..).
Therefore, I would conclude that the Torah and Injeel are those sections within the final Scripture that was revealed by God through Mohammed and not the corrupt bible/torah versions that are full of lies and blasphemeies about God and His messengers.
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and just read 568, it commands to uphold the Taurat and the Injeel revealed by Allah . how can one do it if they are corrupt ? thus Bible is not the Taurat/Injeel . Bible is a man-made book to begin with .
Please let your interpretation be known to members here bro.
my interpretation of taurat and injeel ? i havent figured it out completely yet . but they cant be the Bible . taurat and injeel should be found in the Koran . which parts of Koran exactly are they ? i m not sure .
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The argument presented by brother Saladin does not make sense ?sorry brother Saladin?
its ok
568 is not really telling Ahl Al Kitab to follow the Tourat and Ingil at the time of the prophet, because simply this will constitute a clear contradiction within the mission of the prophet, it is obvious that the message of the prophet for Ahl Al Kitab is to follow the Quran not the Tourat or the Bible, 568 is simply telling us that Allah said to Hhis prophet to tell Ahl Al Kitab that they will not be believers until they uphold the tourat, injil and Al Quran ?Wa Ma Onzil Ilaikum?, therefore the verses clearly means that what should be upheld is the uncorrupted versions of those three books, remember who is saying this to them?, IT IS MOHAMMAD and his message is the one that must be followed,
The Quran also told the Muslims to believe in the Tourat and Injil, would that means to believe in the corrupted versions?, of course not , however to find an uncorrupted version of the Tourat and Injil during the time of the prophet and up to this moment is impossible, but that does not mean that there is many uncorrupted passages in the current versions of these two scriptures
the problem is that Koran does not say that taurat and injeel have been corrupted . so your claim has no basis in the Koran.
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Salaam Layth,
Peace,
If you read the Scripture delivered by Mohammed, then you will notice that within its pages is a repeat of the laws that were revealed to the Jews and Nazarines and why it was done so (such as the Sabaath, not eating meat mixed with fat. etc..).
Therefore, I would conclude that the Torah and Injeel are those sections within the final Scripture that was revealed by God through Mohammed and not the corrupt bible/torah versions that are full of lies and blasphemeies about God and His messengers.
Do you mean jews and nazarines are commanded to uphold ONLY those sections in quran?
Such as 6146?
6146 And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.
The puzzle for me is when they already believe in quran, then why should they bother with their previous scriptures which are not representative of the words of Allah?
Does that also mean 532 is ONLY for Bani Israil and not for us?
532 For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
Using the same reasoning, is the law of QISAS (eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, etc) only for jews and not for us?
544 Verily, it is We who bestowed from on high the Torah, wherein there was guidance and light. On `its strength did the prophets, who had surrendered themselves unto God, deliver judgment unto those who followed the Jewish faith; and so did the men of God and the rabbis, inasmuch as some of God's writ had been entrusted to their care; and they bore witness to its truth. Therefore, hold not men in awe, but stand in awe of Me; and do not barter away My messages for a trifling gain for they who do not judge in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high are, indeed, deniers of the truth!
545 And We ordained for them in that A life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and a retribution for wounds; but he who shall forgo it out of charity will atone thereby for some of his past sins. And they who do not judge in accordance with what God has revealed - they, they are the evildoers!Please share your thoughts.
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my interpretation of taurat and injeel ? i havent figured it out completely yet . but they cant be the Bible . taurat and injeel should be found in the Koran . which parts of Koran exactly are they ? i m not sure .
Do you believe that Allah has sent previous scriptures or not?
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Do you believe that Allah has sent previous scriptures or not?
here is what i wrote on the first page of the thread
Allah challenges to come with a book from before the Koran
464 Say "Do ye see what you call from other than Allah? Show me what they have created from the earth, or for them is a share in the skies .Come to me with a book/kitab from before this, or any traces from knowledge if you are truthful .
so the "previous scriptures" just dont exist, to begin with .
and i dont remember reading in the Koran anything like "previous scriptures" .
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here is what i wrote on the first page of the thread
Allah challenges to come with a book from before the Koran
464 Say "Do ye see what you call from other than Allah? Show me what they have created from the earth, or for them is a share in the skies .Come to me with a book/kitab from before this, or any traces from knowledge if you are truthful .
so the "previous scriptures" just dont exist, to begin with .
and i dont remember reading in the Koran anything like "previous scriptures" .
Bro, are you serious about your understanding that previous scriptures NEVER existed?
Then which scriptures did Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc teach? Did they read exactly the SAME ARABIC quran as quran we read nowadays?
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here is what i wrote on the first page of the thread
Allah challenges to come with a book from before the Koran
464 Say "Do ye see what you call from other than Allah? Show me what they have created from the earth, or for them is a share in the skies .Come to me with a book/kitab from before this, or any traces from knowledge if you are truthful .
so the "previous scriptures" just dont exist, to begin with .
and i dont remember reading in the Koran anything like "previous scriptures" .
Bro, are you serious about your understanding that previous scriptures NEVER existed?
that is what the verse is saying .
the term "previous scriptures" is not in the Koran . even if u think that there were any scripture revealed by Allah before the Koran, it would cease to exist after the arrival of the Koran .(464)
Then which scriptures did Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc teach? Did they read exactly the SAME ARABIC quran as quran we read nowadays?
i cant bring a revealed book from before the Koran . (464)
Ibrahim , Musa , Eesa , all the prophets recieved the Book(al kitab) . some say it is the book of universal history, others say it is the Koran itself . i m still studying this topic of "al kitab" to say anything conclusive .
salam.
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Bro, are you serious about your understanding that previous scriptures NEVER existed?
that is what the verse is saying.
That is your understanding I would say.
How about 2285 bro?
2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers"; and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."
the term "previous scriptures" is not in the Koran . even if u think that there were any scripture revealed by Allah before the Koran, it would cease to exist after the arrival of the Koran .(464)
I am more interested in understanding and not the term. The term might not exist (I am not sure about this coz I haven't specifically researched this) but that doesn't imply that previous scriptures NEVER existed.
Regarding 464, I understand that as a rethorical question (something like a challenge) which means the previous scriptures cease to be AUTHORITATIVE. I hope you see the differences.
Then which scriptures did Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc teach? Did they read exactly the SAME ARABIC quran as quran we read nowadays?
i cant bring a revealed book from before the Koran . (464)
See my understanding above.
Ibrahim , Musa , Eesa , all the prophets recieved the Book(al kitab) . some say it is the book of universal history, others say it is the Koran itself . i m studying this topic of "al kitab" to say anything conclusive .
How about this?
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."
I really don't know who are "others" that you are talking. It is the first time in this forum I read a claim that all prophets read the SAME ARABIC SCRIPTURE as we read nowadays.
Wassalam,
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Peace,
Every prophet recieved a Kitab which his own people could understand. So Jesus wasn't mentioned in Moses's Kitab, Noah's Kitab didn't mention Abraham and so on. Also the metaphors used in those times were used and the language of course. That it was in the prose form as the Quran, i don't doubt. But it is nonsense to believe they recieved it in the Arabic language and to believe they recieved the same Quran. Every Kitab expresses the issues of those times. Like the Quran takes on the issue about the divinity of Jesus, in the same way did the earlier Kitab's talk about the issues relevant to those times. They all come from the same source, and what is called the mother-Kitab, that i agree, so in that form you can call them one Kitab, as they are all chapters of the mother-Kitab. And they all had certain things in common as humanrights, Oneness of God and so on.
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Bro, are you serious about your understanding that previous scriptures NEVER existed?
that is what the verse is saying.
That is your understanding I would say.
lets see.
How about 2285 bro?
2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord. And the believers, all who believe in God, and His angels, and His Scriptures, and His messengers "We do not differentiate between any of His messengers"; and they said "We hear and obey, forgive us O Lord, and to you is our destiny."
the "kutub/books/writings" in 2285 are inside the Koran . they are not seperate
981 Those who reject from Ahlal Kitab/people of the Book and those who associate will not disconnect until there comes to them the clarification.
982 A rasool/messenger from Allah, he recites purified pages.
983 In them(pages) are kutub/books/writings established .the term "previous scriptures" is not in the Koran . even if u think that there were any scripture revealed by Allah before the Koran, it would cease to exist after the arrival of the Koran .(464)
I am more interested in understanding and not the term.
why use the term then ?
Regarding 464, I understand that as a rethorical question (something like a challenge) which means the previous scriptures cease to be AUTHORITATIVE. I hope you see the differences.
now THAT is only your understanding . my understanding was just what the Koran is saying .
Ibrahim , Musa , Eesa , all the prophets recieved the Book(al kitab) . some say it is the book of universal history, others say it is the Koran itself . i m studying this topic of "al kitab" to say anything conclusive .
How about this?
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say "Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful."
what about it ?
I really don't know who are "others" that you are talking. It is the first time in this forum I read a claim that all prophets read the SAME ARABIC SCRIPTURE as we read nowadays.
here are the "others" www.iipc.tv
salam.
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Peace,
Every prophet recieved a Kitab which his own people could understand. So Jesus wasn't mentioned in Moses's Kitab, Noah's Kitab didn't mention Abraham and so on.
i disagree. the prophets received Al Kitab , and the prophets are also mentioned in Al Kitab .
for example
1916 And mention in the Book Marium, when she withdrew herself from her family to an eastern place.
1941 And mention in the Book Abraham; he was a truthful man, a prophet.
1951 And mention in the Book Moses; he was loyal, and he was a messenger, a prophet.
1954 And mention in the Book Ishmael; he was truthful to his promise, and he was a messenger, a prophet.
1956 And mention in the Book Idris; surely he was a man of truth, a prophet.
Also the metaphors used in those times were used and the language of course. That it was in the prose form as the Quran, i don't doubt. But it is nonsense to believe they recieved it in the Arabic language ...
Why is it non-sense to believe that other prophets received it in non-Arabic language?! Arabic is a language that gives explanation/detail
4144 And had We made it a foreign(non-Arabic) reading, they would have said "Why have not its verses been detailed?" ?
Allah always knew that people would ask this question. Not only since the past 1400 years .
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Peace,
For one, arabic isn't thousands of years old. Noah and Abraham didn't speak arabic. This can even by seen by their names, which have a non-arabic meaning and source. Plus you can take the term, the Book, in different ways. You can approach it like you(if i'm correct on the theory you present here), and say this can only refer that there is only one sort of Al-Kitab and that is the Quran, which means all messengers recieved the Quran and in Arabic. You can also take it, that it refers to the same source of Revelation. The idea that Noah has gotten the exact same Book as Muhammed has some problems. For one, look at the difference on how God talks to Muhammed, how Muhammed must deal with his people. He talks to him and about his problems in a futuristic terms and present moment terms. This we can also see with Noah, but we only get snapshots about Noah and 90% of his story is in past-time language. The same holds for Abraham, Jesus and the other prophets were their story is 90% in past-time language.
Also the idols like Allat, who were not present under those names during Noah's time. The things told to Muhammed about what is going to happen to him or what action he should take, are 80% in present-time language. So to understand what is meant with the term Al-Kitab, you have to use cross-reference of verses to understand what is meant here. Is Al-Kitab the book that has never changed, not even in language and always passed on to different prophets? Or does Al-Kitab mean to the message and the source?
When i use cross-reference of meaning, i see the last one. Plus history of the Arabic language showing that it isn't a thousands of years old language. In Palestine in the time of Jesus, almost none spoke Arabic. Why would God send a message in a language they couldn't understand, and so the verse 4141 couldn't be said by them.
Like 4141 clearly says FOREIGN reading. It doesn't say Arabic. It clearly states that no message is sent down in a foreign language that wouldn't be as clear to them as their own language would have been. It is detailed not because it is in Arabic specificaly, but because it is in their own language.
The problem also with the term Torah is that it is seen as one book. The Torah is a collection of Laws and stories. Torah means Laws, and Gospel/Injeel means Good News. When translated as such, they fit more in the context. The Christians has heard the Good News, and the Jews most uphold the Laws.
When you read verses as, 'where is their Book they follow?', it refers to that during the time of the revelation of the Quran, there wasn't any original Al-Kitab left that wasn't distorted. If i write a book, and later people change things in it, would it still be my book then? No, of course not. So that is the logical to say that there wasn't any Al-Kitab present anymore. They only have bits and pieces.
Also when we look at verses like
26196 It has been prophesied in the books of previous generations.
If the prophets before Muhammed recieved the same Al-Kitab, where are those prophecies then inside the Quran?
4612 Before this, the book of Moses provided guidance and mercy. This too is a scripture that confirms, in Arabic, to warn those who transgressed, and to give good news to the righteous.
It doesn't say it is the same Al-Kitab. It uses even language that refers to that it is different one, but having the same source and purpose.
And you will probably refer that it says Arabic, but this only refers to this scripture.6114 Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
If there weren't any scriptures anymore, at least partialy, how can they recognize the Quran? That it is why it also revealing that instead of saying 'those who HAVE the scripture' it says 'those who recieved it'. If i write a book, and it gets changed over time. Then do they still HAVE my book? No. But did they recieved it? They certainly did. And to recognize one of my new revealed books, they should have parts left of the message.
It is a real interresting approach Saladin(if i got your theory right, if i mistook you, please excuse me), but it has some loopholes in it. Arabic wasn't used in the time of Moses or Abraham, at least not in the form as we have it now in the Quran. language is an ever evolving thing. The Quran is in 6th century Arabic, not in 2th century Arabic, or 20th century Arabic, which has a lot of differences with it.
I do agree that the Al-Kitabs of the former prophets contained the same message for about 80-90%, but it talked about in their language and especially used examples they knew. People of history that were known in their time, which are unknown now.
So i believe, Al-Kitab refers to the message and the source, and not that it is the exact 100% same revelation given to all prophets. In the time of Moses, his revelation was THE Book, as there were none in that time that were direct revelation. Like Micheal Jackson was THE star in the 80's, and Elvis was THE star in the 60's.
Peace
