Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory
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Peace,
Al-khidr do what you feel is best. And don't forget to look up in the dictionary what emotions come with being passionate. And again in your last post to phoenix, you say people and me didn't like it that you 'brought it back to mother Africa'. For one, i don't care which country it is, it is about if it has any use in the discussion. I'm black myself my friend. See how you misuse this argument? You misuse racism, as an excuse to slander people. Make their comments less. Stop doing this. You have accused people for racism while it was never their idea to slander the idea that we have a long history of advanced civilations. Their purpose was only to show that it was not proof for the 5-times. I hope in time brother you will grow up.
It is true few have commented on the arabic, which is not good. I myself believe in 5. But then still, your way is not a humble way....
Peace upon all...
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Salaam Arnold
You have said this
"For one, in the earliest sources it is told they prayed 3, and only later on 5. See Ibn Ishaq and Tabari. And when and who did this, who changed it? The persians who wanted to take over the arabic empire as a revenge for the destruction of theirs. Most hadith rules comes form the persians, as well as the ritual prayer rules"
I am glad that I went into the history of ancient Africa and highlighted the Salaat observance of the Nubians, which was either 5 or 7 and not 3. The Nubians of antiquity documented this and it well known but they did not observe 3 Salaat and this historical data predates the so-called hadiyth. Arnold this is what Allah says about your hadiyth
Qur'aan 7750
Which hadiyth, other than this, do they believe?In a previous thread you have commented on that we need to resolve this in Al Qur'aan. The premise of my rebuttal to A. Muhammad was focused on Al Qur'aan ALONE. The arguments has been resolved there are 5 Salaat and not 3.
Salaam
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Peace,
Al-khidr, is was not meant as to prove 5 or 3, you misunderstood me. Stillearning said that the earliest sources on Muhammed says he prayed, which is not true, that is why i posted it. To show we cannot use history. Only the Quran. And he wanted to know who would have done the change, which i also answered, if there was any criminal, it were the persians.
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Salaam
Arnold are you really serious that Mohammed prayed 3 times and the terrible persians changed it to 5, without as much as a protest-I mean the whole muslim world just fell in line with them just like that. Obviously we have been reading differnet history books
regards -
Salaam brain1
You have said this
"I'm black myself my friend"
We all know that your color is not proof. There are many people who are Black but not mentally Black and I believe you know what I mean. Malcolm X not only had problems with White America attacking him but many of his own who were uncle toms attacked and oppose him. I had to point this out to dispell your rhetoric and trying to use your color as a badge of honor. There are many stool pigeons, uncle times out in the world. And brain1 no you did not dispell the relevency of using African research, history to illustrate that they were observing Salaat which is again a history that predates hadiyth and that history does not show 3. Also brain1 if you believe in the 3 Salaat?, why waste your time with your emotional state and worrying about my approach, my style and not get inside Al Qur'aan to refute my arguments. People cannot win debates on preying on emotions worrying about someone's style or approach, people win debates by presenting evidence/facts. When I debate my opponents I personally can care less about their style, approach or what type of language they use or how they attack myself etc., what I do is go in and rip up their arguments and strategically break them down but I will never cry. This is not within my character.
brain1 I will take your advise and keep on doing what I do and thanks.
Salaam
Peace,
Al-khidr do what you feel is best. And don't forget to look up in the dictionary what emotions come with being passionate. And again in your last post to phoenix, you say people and me didn't like it that you 'brought it back to mother Africa'. For one, i don't care which country it is, it is about if it has any use in the discussion. I'm black myself my friend. See how you misuse this argument? You misuse racism, as an excuse to slander people. Make their comments less. Stop doing this. You have accused people for racism while it was never their idea to slander the idea that we have a long history of advanced civilations. Their purpose was only to show that it was not proof for the 5-times. I hope in time brother you will grow up.
It is true few have commented on the arabic, which is not good. I myself believe in 5. But then still, your way is not a humble way....
Peace upon all...
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Salaam Arnold
Since you used some hadiyth to illustrate 3 Salaat, why would you not acknowledge the tons and tons or the 99% of hadiyth that says Muhammad observed 5 Salaat and there was never any 3?
Salaam
Peace,
Al-khidr, is was not meant as to prove 5 or 3, you misunderstood me. Stillearning said that the earliest sources on Muhammed says he prayed, which is not true, that is why i posted it. To show we cannot use history. Only the Quran. And he wanted to know who would have done the change, which i also answered, if there was any criminal, it were the persians.
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As Salaamu Alaykum Stillearning
All Muslims know that the hadiyth history speak of performing 5 Salaat. In a world based on free-will its possible to find one or two hadiyth that says 3 or any other number beside 5 but we Muslims know that 99 or 99.9% percent of all hadiyth says 5 Salaat and never 3.
My question is when are the proponents of the "3 Salaat Theory" are going to go deep down inside the Qur'aan to prove their theory?
Salaam
Salaam
Arnold are you really serious that Mohammed prayed 3 times and the terrible persians changed it to 5, without as much as a protest-I mean the whole muslim world just fell in line with them just like that. Obviously we have been reading differnet history books
regards -
Peace,
Stillearning, these are the same people who took in the hadith aboutt he stoning, about the shahada and so on. Your concept that the perians couldn't have done this is nonsense and naieve.
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Salaam
Stillearning, these are the same people who took in the hadith aboutt he stoning, about the shahada and so on. Your concept that the perians couldn't have done this is nonsense and naieve
.I hope this is not the level of of logic you apply to the rest of your deductions. Lets see how often is that an individual has to deal with stoning for adultery or witness shahda. So if it is introduced as an abberation in Islam hardly many in the world are going to notice apart from few very knowldgeable ones and they can easily be silenced or not given their voice. On the other hand Namaz which even the children in the islamic world are aware can sudenly be changed from 3 to 5. just sit down and think for few seconds and see who is being naieve.
I think problem in this site is people have become too clever by half and are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
regards -
Peace,
When you study the way the ancient schools of thought worked, you will see their power they had.
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Salaam brain1
You have said this
"It is true few have commented on the arabic, which is not good"
Even though I used Arabic brain1 in my research, this subject matter is so simple & and easy that we really do not need Arabic to resolve this issue. If we really needed any level of Arabic, it would only be an elementary level of Arabic, if that.
This subject matter is not a controversial issue among Muslims who follow Qur'aan alone throughout the world nor is it an issue with traditional Muslims, this is only an issue among the Progressive Muslims. Among the Progressive Muslims there are some who is promoting the "3 Salaat Theory" and there are some who observe 5 Salaat as prescribed by Allah in the Qur'aan.
Salaam
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Salaam Arnold
I dont know if you are unable or unwilling to understand the point I made.
I will try again Number of times the Namaz is read is so basic that even simple ones like me are in the know. There is hardly a Muslim today or in the past who will have been unaware of this. Where as the more obsecure rules such punishment for adultery-hardly any with even good basic understanding of Islam will be aware. Hence if such rules are changed, deleted etc very few will notice. Where as if you suddenly said to the Muslim world sorry guys you have all been praying wrongly it should be 5 really and not 3. Can you imagine the reaction of a an average muslim to this. You fail to fully grasp\the power of state either today or in the past. Even the most poweful cannot cross certain boundries without major consequences
regards -
Peace,
And you don't understand the power of the schools. Everyone also makes wudu different then the Quran wuduu. There are many optional prayers in sunnism. It is nor surprise 2 optional prayers were sneaked in times to make them obligatory. I study Theology and you will be surprised with what things people get away with. To hold to the notion that people would not have taken it is naieve. The original festival of Jesus's birth was in january, now it is on 25th december, because that is the birthday of mitra, the sungod. i can give thousands of examples of how things are sneaked in and accpeted over time. You only have to twist the theology little by little and people will accept it.
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Salaam Stillearning
The proponents of the "3 Salaat Theory" cannot go in the Qur'aan, so they will do anything to leave a crack in the door for 3 Salaat.
Your point here is well taken
I think problem in this site is people have become too clever by half and are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Salaam
Salaam
Stillearning, these are the same people who took in the hadith aboutt he stoning, about the shahada and so on. Your concept that the perians couldn't have done this is nonsense and naieve
.I hope this is not the level of of logic you apply to the rest of your deductions. Lets see how often is that an individual has to deal with stoning for adultery or witness shahda. So if it is introduced as an abberation in Islam hardly many in the world are going to notice apart from few very knowldgeable ones and they can easily be silenced or not given their voice. On the other hand Namaz which even the children in the islamic world are aware can sudenly be changed from 3 to 5. just sit down and think for few seconds and see who is being naieve.
I think problem in this site is people have become too clever by half and are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
regards -
Peace,
Throwing out the baby with the bathwater would apply more to people who don't believe in a ritual salaat at all....
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Salaam Arnold
Who was the one who sanctioned the "The original festival of Jesus's birth was in january"?
Salaam
Peace,
And you don't understand the power of the schools. Everyone also makes wudu different then the Quran wuduu. There are many optional prayers in sunnism. It is nor surprise 2 optional prayers were sneaked in times to make them obligatory. I study Theology and you will be surprised with what things people get away with. To hold to the notion that people would not have taken it is naieve. The original festival of Jesus's birth was in january, now it is on 25th december, because that is the birthday of mitra, the sungod. i can give thousands of examples of how things are sneaked in and accpeted over time. You only have to twist the theology little by little and people will accept it.
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As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully. jediThe prayers mentioned BY NAME in the Quran are three
1- Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer)2458
2- Salat Al-Esha (Night Prayer)2458
3- Al-Salat Al-Wusta (The Middle Prayer) 2238.
The following points all confirm that there are only three Salat authorised by God in the Quran
FIRST
God tells us that the Quran contains all the details (6114) and that nothing has been left out of the book (63.
If this is the case, and more important, IF WE BELIEVE GOD 100%, then we have to ask why are the names of the other two salat not mentioned in the Quran?
The reply to this can be one of the following
1- God forgot to mention the other two! (this option is obviously false, because God does NOT forget).
2- The Quran does not contain all the details (this is also false because God tells us in 6114 that it does).
3- God did not mention the names of the other 2 salat because they are not important . This is also a false option, if they were not important then they would not be compulsory, as a result to claim that there are 5 compulsory prayers becomes a false claim.
4- God did not mention the names of the other 2 prayers because God wants us to guess them !!! Once again this is false, the Quran is not a book of puzzles.
5- God does not mention the names of the other 2 salat because God wants us to uphold our inherited rituals as a second source of law besides the Quran! Once again this assumption is incorrect since it is in violation of 6114, 73 and 548. For all the details please go to Millat Ibraheem
6- God does not mention the names of the other 2 prayers, because THERE IS NO OTHER 2 PRAYERS according to the law of the Quran.
THE GENUINE BELIEVERS WILL NOT ACCEPT
ANY OPTION OTHER THAN NUMBER 6
SECOND
Let us read 11114 where the misunderstanding occurred
"You shall observe the Salat (Contact Prayers) at the ends of the day, and zulufann min al-layl."11114
There has been a number of interpretations of the words 'zulufann min al-layl' the ones that are most used are (part of the night) or (during the night) or (some part of the night).
However, none of these interpretations is accurate or in line with the Quranic use of the word 'zulufan' as will be shown shortly.................................
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Traditionally, this verse has been interpreted to mean (you shall observe the prayers at both ends of the day AND part of the night) ?.. as a result, the verse was interpreted to be speaking about two Salat at the end of the day PLUS an additional salat during the night, a total of 3 salat. Those with this interpretation give these 3 Salat the names of Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer, which is mentioned by name in the Quran), Salat Al-Maghrib (not mentioned by name in the Quran), plus Salat Al-Esha (Night prayer, which is mentioned in the Quran by name but with a different time range).
Others have interpreted this verse to be speaking about Salat Al-Fajr (mentioned in the Quarn) and Salat al-Asr (not mentioned in the Quran) plus salat Al-Maghrib (not mentioned in the Quran by name).
All these interpretations rely on names and times of Salat that not authorised in the Quran. The whole mis-understanding is due to the fact that they have failed to accept that this verse (11114) in actual fact speaks of TWO Salat and NOT three. This will be apparent once we establish the true meaning of key words in 11114.
The root of the word 'zulufann' is 'Zulfa'. This word is used in the Quran to mean near or adjacent
" ..... Those who set up idols beside Him say, "We idolize them only to bring us 'zulfa' (near/close) to God ...." 393
As a result, the phrase 'zulufann min al-layl' means the near/adjacent part of the night. The obvious question is near to what? Nothing can be described as 'near' in absolute terms, the word near can only have a meaning when we have a reference point to which this thing is near to. So now we have to read 11114 again and see what does God mean by near, near to what? The only other reference points given in 11114 are the two ends of the day (sunrise and sunset). Also note that the word which is used in 11114 is 'zulufann', this is a plural form of 'zulfa', thus the words 'zulufann min al-layl' speak of the parts of the night (plural) that are adjacent to the two ends of the day (sunrise and sunset).
The adjacent parts of the night (to sunrise and sunset) are the two 'parts' of the night, the part before sunrise, and the part after sunset (note that anytime before sunrise and after sunset is defined as night in Quranic terminology).
As a result it becomes apparent that God is giving us in 11114 the range of two salat. The range for the two salat are the parts of the night that are just before sunrise and immediately after sunset.
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Perhaps the word "wa" (which means AND) and which is placed before the phrase 'zulufann min al-layl' in 11114 contributed largely to the mis-interpretation of this verse. Many have understood the word 'and' to mean (and an additional Salat), however, the word 'and' simply links the two ends of the day with their adjacent parts of the night to give the time range of the two salat. This is not any different than the following example
If your doctor tells you You can only have your medicine at miday AND for the following few hours.
What does this mean? Does this mean that you must take the medicine at miday and then take it AGAIN for a few hours after that? or does it simply mean that the time you can take the medicine is anytime between miday and the few hours after that?
Similarly, if God tells us to observe the Salat at the ends of the day 'and' for the adjacent hours of the night, it is the same thing. The word 'and' in 11114 does not indicate an additional third prayer.
With reason, it can be proved that this is the ONLY logical explanation of this verse
1- A command to observe the salat at the two ends of the day (without the inclusion of the phrase 'zulufann min al-layl', does not provide us with any indication as to when exactly these two Salat are to be observed. This is because the ends of the day are mere points in time that are no longer than a minute each. Surely God does not expect all believers to observe the salat only during the few seconds that it takes the sun to rise or set? It is only with the addition of the words "zulufan min al-layl" in the same verse that the command indicates a time range when these two salat should be observed.
2- To get round this tricky situation some have claimed that we can observe the Salat around the two points and not only during the actual sunrise/sunset, but this is equally unacceptable. This interpretation gives rise to a new valid question Does this mean that we may observe the Salat anytime before or after sunrise/sunset? Is it only before sunrise/sunset? Is it only after sunrise/sunset? It is obvious that we would be left without any clues as to when exactly to observe these two Salat unless we accept the further clarification given by the phrase 'zulufann min al-layl'. This phrase confirms that it is the night side of the sunrise and sunset that the salat may be observed.
The two Salat at the ends of the day that are spoken of in 11114 are given specific names in the Quran. They are Salat Al-Fajr (Dawn Prayer) and Salat Al-Esha (Night Prayer). -
THIRD
Now we come to the third Salat mentioned in the Quran, which is Al-Salat Al-Wusta (223.The word Wusta is the adjective of the word Wasat which means middle, therefore the words Al-Salat Al-Wusta mean 'The Middle Prayer'. Moreover, the notion of a 'Middle' prayer indicates that the number of prayers is an odd number. Consequently, the Salat Al-Wusta is a prayer that lies half way between the two prayers at the two ends of the day. In astronomical terms this Salat is due exactly at the middle of the day, i.e. when the sun has travelled half its distance in the sky.
In 2238 we read the words 'hafezu ala al-salawaat', which mean (you shall persevere with your prayers). The word 'Salawaat' is plural and speaks of more than two prayers. If they were only two prayers the word used would have been 'Al-Salatayn' (the two prayers). Moreover, if God was speaking about the concept of prayer in general, and without referring to the number of individual salat, the words used would have been "hafezu ala al-salat" as we read in many other verse.
The Salat Al-Wusta can be observed from the moment the sun begins its descend from its highest point (duluk al shams) until the darkness of the night (ghasaq al-layl) starts, which is at sunset
"You shall observe the Salat (Contact Prayer) from when the sun declines from its highest point up till the 'ghasaq al-layl' (the darkness of the night)." 1778
P.S. The darkness of the night starts to set in at sunset. And that is when the Salat Al-Wusta ends.
FOURTH
God tells us that the time of each prayer is precisely appointed "kitaban mawqootan" 4103. The word "kitaban" which means BOOK refers to the Quran, or to 'that which is written'. The deliberate use of this word by God confirms to us that the precise appointed time for each of the prayers is given in the Quran. Once again this conforms to the fact that the Quran contains all the details.
Now let us assume that the total number of prayers every day is five, then where in the Quran do we find the appointed time for the claimed 'Salat Al-Asr' (afternoon prayer)? When does it start? Similarly, when does the fagr prayer start? When does the claimed 'Maghrib' (sunset) prayer end? (remember if we accept that there are 5 prayers in the Quran, then we cannot interpret the phrase 'zulufann min al-layl' to indicate a time span, but to indicate an additional salat).
It is a known fact that non of the advocates of the five prayers is able to give any Quranic reference for the time spans of all five prayers.