Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory

[Al_Khidr]

As Salaamu Alaykum FJ

You have quoted the following verse

Qur?aan 2436-37
36. (Allah?s guidance is found) in houses exalted by Allah, for His name is commemorated therein. Glorifying Him therein, day and night-
37. People who are not distracted by business or trade from commemorating Allah; they observe the Salaat, and give the Zakaat, and they are conscious of the day when the minds and the eyes will be horrified.

You have said this

?I think it is saying Glorify Him DURING the night not at any praticular part of the night. Why limit the glorification only at specified times when it should be done DAY and NIGHT?

I think there are some things that you may have misunderstood. Note FJ, you have said this, ?why limit the glorification only at specific times??

Note, not I but Allah has decreed that we observe the prescribed Salaat at specific times and the verse below is an indication of that

Qur?aan 4103
?the Salaat are decreed for the believers at specific times.

As you can see not I but Allah has decreed Salaat for specific times and those specific times that we are suppose to observe the prescribed Salaat are mapped out in the Holy Qur?aan. The proponents of the ?3 Salaat Theory? mysteriously diminished them to only 3, when Allah has authorized 5 in the Holy Qur?aan. If we believe that we are suppose to submit to Allah?s will and not ours then we should be observing the specific times to observe the 5 Salaat. Now FJ, this is important, it is perfectly fine to glorify Allah out side of the 5 prescribed Salaat and there are verses in the Holy Qur?aan that substantiate that. For example

Qur?aan 1779
During the night, you shall meditate for extra credit, that your Lord may raise you to an honorable rank.

Also check out these verses

Qur?aan 20130
Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and glorify and praise your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as well as at both ends of the day, that you may attain (spiritual) happiness.

Qur?aan 5039-40
39. Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and praise and glorify your Sustainer before sunrise, and before sunset.
40. And during the night you shall glorify Him, and after prostrating.

Qur?aan 2564
In the privacy of the night, they meditate on their Lord, prostrating and standing up.

Qur?aan 2277
O you who believe, bow, prostrate, worship your Sustainer, and work righteousness, that you may succeed.

Which side of the fence do you stand under observing the prescribed Salaat 5 or 3 times?

Salaam

As Salaamu Alaykum Alen

You never answered this question that I asked you

Look at this verse below

Qur?aan 5249
Also during the night glorify Him, and at dawn as the stars fade away.

My question is would you say this verse is referring to the Fajr (Dawn) Salaat?

Selam all,

Brother Al-khidr please do not take this as attack to your article coz im just expressing my thought nothing more nothing less, peace peace

I think it is saying Glorify Him DURING the night not at any praticular part of the night. Why limit the glorification only at specified times when it should be done DAY and NIGHT just like in the following aya
"In sanctuaries that God has allowed to be raised and His name mentioned in them. He is glorified therein day and night. Men who are not distracted by trade or sale from the remembrance of God and performing the Salat, and contributing towards betterment. They fear a Day when the hearts and sight will be overturned." (The Message 2436-37)

I think this aya tells us that He should be glorified day and night and it is refering to those people that are not distracted by trade and sale from the rememberance of God and performing the Salat and contributing toward betterment.

Selam all
FJ

[progod]

Okay, the judgement is in.

zulfaa= closeness or qurbatun(according to Muheetul-muheet) According to how its written and how it sounds it can also be zulfan, which means that it comes from zulfun
zulfun, can equal zalfun and in this case equal taqarrubun or taqaddumun=approaching, coming close.
Zulfatun, whose plural is zulaf, which is mentioned in the passages that says Atraafun and tarafay annhaar, = the station, position, portion or closeness of the night. It's plural is zulaf or zulafaat. It can also mean that part of the day that goes into night, and the part of the night that goes into the daylight.

According to Lane's Lexicon ZulfaH (and not zulfaa) is nearness with respect to rank, degree, station, as well as place or situation.
Quran, 6727 And when the will see it near/close at hand.' falamma ra'awhu zulfatan. 'Near or close at hand' here is zulfatan (not zulfaa), the singular of zulaf. It is used as an adverb here and means 'in proximity.' It is also a portion of the first part of night (whether small or large). Meaning the portion that is right after the twilight of dusk. It can also according to some sources just mean a part of the night itself.

If zulfaa is understood as the adverb form fo zulf then zulfaa is also the collective of zulfah.

So Zulaf min alaili can mean times of proximity to the night, parts of the night, the times of night that are before dawn and after dusk.

As for 'ishaa'. Eeshaa' does not mean night. That is lail. Eeshaa' means 'evening.' It doesn't mean night or sunset. Sunset is magrhib or al-ghuroob. Eeshaa' means 'getting dark' or 'dimming' and that is what 'evening' means in English too. It is the period of the day when things start to get darker, which lasts from late afternoon until when everything is completely dark(lail).

Now the Quran only mentions two prayers. Salaatul-fajr and Salaat-Eeshaa'. To correct a common mistake, fajr= dawn, but dawn DOES NOT equal sunrise. Dawn is the time when you can start to see the sky getting brighter until the sunrises. So Fajr is the lighting of day and Eeshaa' is the dimming of day.

Asalaatul-wustaa is not the name of prayer and I'll tell you why. Salaatul-fajr and Salaat-Eeshaa' are both idaafah constructions. That is to say that they are both possessive. One says 'Prayer OF the dawn' and the other says "Prayer of the Evening.' But 'Asalaatul-wustaa' is not "Prayer OF the middle.' It is 'the middle-most prayer' if you interpret 'wustaa' as middle. Awsat and its female wustaa can mean 'best' also, and that should be the preffered meaning. I'll tell you why.

If you say 'the middle-most prayer' what is being assumed is that you have heard about this prayer before, it has been mentioned before. But what what prayer(salaat) that resembles a middle-most prayer has been mentioned before 2238? None. If we assume that the Quran wants to make us look for it and uses what we might consider more poetic language, then is there any other prayer mentioned later in the Quran that can be considered a prayer during some middle-most time? Noon perhaps? No, not at all.

Dulook ashamsi in the dictionaries is clearly sunset. If we want to break up the word and look at just dulook, it is the noun of dalaka. Dalaka means to knead, to rub, to pass the hand over, to set or to go down. When it comes to the use of the word 'to decline from the zenith' lane lexicon sources it by saying
'Az (the source) says that, IN HIS OPINION, the words of the Quran (5780) 'aqim asalaata lidulookishamsi' mean, "peform your prayer from the declining sun at noon' so that the command expressed by these words with what follows them includes the five prayers'

This is his personal opinion. However, it does turn out that there is more rare meaning for dulook which can be equal to zawaalushamsi (which means the sun at noon, declining form the meridian. As well as sunset). The key that we have here is 'the sun at noon.' So noon is as the sun reaches the meridian, when it is in it and as it moves away from it, but is still high in the sky. So if we are supposed to pray during this part of noon how come there is no mention of it in 2458? Whereas both the dawn prayer and the evening prayer are mentioned.

"To those who would be faithful, let those children under your trust who have not yet reach puberty, ask permission from you during three certain times; during the dawn prayer, when you set your clothes aside at noon, and after the evening prayer. These are three time of privacy for you. And there is nothing wrong with them surrounding you and being in your pressence outside of these time. In this way God is putting forth his words to you. . ."

So if there is a noon prayer why isn't it mentioned here. It would have been just as easy to say 'and during the noon prayer' or 'around the noon prayer.' and this would have been clarified by the dulookashamsi in 5780. But there is no noon prayer mentioned here because there is no noon prayer. And although dulook-ashamsi, can mean late-noon it should not be understood that way here because if there were a noon-prayer it would have been mentioned here.

As for zulfah, all of its meanings can still fall in line with the latter part of &eeshaa' which is night-fall or evening. Nightfall is as it gets darker until it is night, that means late-afternoon until night. The times of night close to the edges of the day (dawn and dusk) fulfill all of the possible meanings of zulaf. Since it would be unjust to pick one meaning that excludes the other meanings, without good reason, we can include them all. The times of night close to dawn and dusk fulfill all the requirements of being parts of the night, times of proximity to the day, and the parts of night that lead into the day, and the parts of the night begin at the end of the day.

So there we have it. The 'wa' that most people like to translate as 'and parts of the night, in close proximity' can be 'including parts of night in close proximity,' making salaatul-fajr and salaatul-Eeshaa's times extend to cover sunrise, sunset, dawn, dusk and the parts of the night that tail them.

So there are 2 prayers. Not three or 5. But if you want to pray 3, 5 or 20. I don't think God will have a problem with that.

Godbless,
Anwar

[Al_Khidr]

Salaam Idolfree1

Below is your foolish statement

?It is your lack of study of this spiritual philosophy, but instead being more concerned with the color of the nation or the names of the Kings, etc., that is not allowing you to see the truth.?

Three things (1) I knew you were a fake when you declared you knew the scholars that I?ve been highlighting and weak Black men do not roll with men of that caliber (2) In the hood you know what we call Black men such as yourself (3) Idolfree1 why are you so hypocritical when you have made statements such as these

?Who says they had very little scientific knowledge? Thier artifacts prove opposite to that. It is only "White Supremecy" that wants to deny the credit of the Africans of Kemet(ancient Egypt). The SCIENCE of Kemet is still used today as well as the symbolisms. The "white supremist" movement wants us to think that anyone before Greece was ignorant and could not think scientifically. The truth is that the greeks learned from the people of Kemet.

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1131.0?

The one?s who have been playing the color game are your comrades, I?m just not an imp like someIdolfree1 who bows down to that and I am definitely not one who fakes like I?m into the Black knowledge but yet a turn coat inside?

You have said this

?If you are following 5 salaats and 19 codes, I dont expect you to understand what I am saying.?

Bore me with more of your OPINIONS/STATEMENTS/ASSUMPTIONS because you have not brought anything to the table besides that. The people can see that you and the rest of the proponents of the ?3 Salaat Thoery? are lacking when it comes to getting down inside Al Qur?aan to prove your position. Like I have told many proponents of the ?3 Salaat Theory? if you want to just present OPINIONS/STATEMENT without backing it up with evidence that?s fine, Alhamdulillah, just as long as you are away idolfree1 that is not proving your position, and OPINIONS/STATEMENTS are something different from FACT, but when you take that approach in a debate as default it serves as nothing but DEFEAT. You and the others have been misleading sincere Muslims with that falsehood, but like the Qur?aan says once truth comes falsehood perishes

Qur?aan 1781
And say ?Truth has (now) arrived, and falsehood perished for falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish,?

You went on shuffling and said

?Regarding Khamitic philosophy and what you call "mysticism", please explain the 7 scorpions of the Ausar/Auset story.?

First of all you are not addressing anything that no body knows; secondly you would love to jump off topic-this is nothing but a red harrying to fill the void of your incompetence of this subject matter 5 or 3 Salaat.

After hearing this

?The site you gave, is it trying to argue that the God has a name? Like humans who bneed names to diffrentiate one from the other? Nonsense!?

Now I can see why progod has problems getting you to comprehend what he is trying to enlighten you on in regards to the Arabic Langauge. This link you commented on
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/allah.htm
seem to disturb you again because of your promotion of a Greek Pagan term ?GOD?, that you constantly use over the original name of the Creator Allah.

You have said this

?God is indivisible and from where the Greeks got the word "Atom" (When they thought that was the smallest object)?

idolefree1 why don?t you talk about how the Greeks got the term ?GOD??

Idolfree1 you have said this

?You have errored by assuming that Kitaab means scripture and not "book".

Man, you must be kidding right? Kitaab in Arabic means ?book or scripture?, please progod break down this elementary Arabic word to your friend here, he needs it.

Again below is some of your mystic nonsense that means nothing nor has a direction in any practical sense nor relevant to the subject matter at hand

?It is a metaphor for Universal Law, not the 114 chapter book written by an enlightened being. There is no par of the 114 chapter book that is off limits.?

Below is again is some more of your mystic talk that takes you around in circles with no end or meaning but an empty void of nothingness

?I advocate 2 salaat, which by the way is not bowing on the ground to some object in the sky. Its a time to join consciousness with subconcious to program your behavior, which is what "religion" is all about.?

Salaat is prescribed and it is deeper then your mystical babble here and I must highlight your statement or opinion here does not prove that Qur?aan 11114 represents 2 Salaat. It is clear idolfree1 that you are not an independent thinker, you just follow what is given to you for BELIEF?

You have said this below

?The intelligent audiecne . By the way, is not swayed by your saying "intelligent audience" Only through verifyable answers.?

Notice that you said, ?Only through verifyable answers?, this is what the people has been waiting on you for to produce evidence inside the Qur?aan besides your statements saying that there is only 3 Salaat in Al Qur?aan. Below is my verifyable evidence

http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm

and

http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/grabbingforstraws.htm

and

http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/wakaszeehlatifdebate.htm

Where is yours besides your OPINIONS/STATEMENTS/ASSUMPTONS etc. etc.?

You have said this

?You should pick up the book Metu Neter by Ra Un Nefer Amen, the one who many of your so called scholars refer to in regards to Ancient Egyptian spirituality.?

Correction Cheikh Anta Diop came before Ra Un Nefer and as a matter of fact Ra Un Nefer uses Cheikh Anta Diop?s resources and Ashra Kwesi is much deeper then Ra Un Nefer when breaking down the Metu Neter.

http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/cheikhantadiop.htm

You have said this

?Brother , you are free to engage in the 19 theory. It does nothing for me in terms of guidance so I disregard the fitna.?

Why are you shuffling, this was your original statement that I responded to which indicates your limited one sided pseudo-research techniques

??I went to your site and saw the 19 theory, so I could not read anymore. Respectfully. June 27, 2006, 114850 AM?

And this was my original response to your shuffling

?Your research techniques does not surprise me and it shows in your responses that you provide in the plethora of threads that you comment on. Any knowledgeable person who truly research reads all information even if they do not believe in it or disagree with it. How can you grow if your approach is one sided or limited? Personally I believe my rebuttal to A. Muhamad entitled, ?Exposing The 3 Salaat Theory? disturbed your sectarian belief that you are fighting tooth and nails to cling on to. When a superior form a knowledge comes on the scene that shatters a belief that one holds on to, they become disturbed, they feel insecure, they feel threaten, they don?t like it, but that EMOTION does nothing but mentally enslave us. Idolfree1, let go free your mind. We are supposed to seek knowledge from where ever it falls and except TRUTH and reject FALSEHOOD. I would not have been able to write my research if I would have used your pseudo research techniques and read part of A. Muhammad?s article to ascertain the truth. I had to dissect his entire article and also dissected other information that is falsely promoting this unfounded and baseless ?3 Salaat Theory?. And the people can see the difference.?

People are asking why don?t idolfree1 produce evidence in Al Qur?aan to support their ?3 Salaat Theory? and I think the answer obvious, they don?t have the evidence and never did.

Salaam

[Al_Khidr]

Salaam progod

I would like to introduce you to two links that refutes your arguments to justify 3 Salaat in Al Qur'aan

http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/grabbingforstraws.htm

and below is a thread where Wakas debated Zee and hlatif on this subject matter and your points were also addressed in this thread..

http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/wakaszeehlatifdebate.htm

progod you cannot interpret LIDULUUKI ASH-SHAMSI to be the mark or start of time of sunset or after sunset because of the Arabic word ILaa which is AFTER the phrase LIDULUUKI ASH-SHAMSI. Both links will go into detail in regards to this. Also your claim that Isha does not mean night is clearly refuted in the first link I gave you. All Arabic dictionaries will define Isha as Night. We should not make obvious errors like this. Our whole goal is truth and things like that are so so so obvious and it becomes so obvious that you can tell when someone is twisting clear data to fit their position.

Also to add rub/rubbing is a very very poor translation of "duluk", which also have been addressed in the first link. Rub or rubbing sounds ridiculous, "to decline" is far superior.

I guess the proponents of the "3 Salaat Theory" must of brought you from the side lines as a desperate attempt to bring hope to a dieing belief...

Salaam

[progod]

Salaam progod

I would like to introduce you to two links that refutes your arguments to justify 3 Salaat in Al Qur'aan

I never justified 3. I justified 2.

http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/grabbingforstraws.htm

and below is a thread where Wakas debated Zee and hlatif on this subject matter and your points were also addressed in this thread..

http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/wakaszeehlatifdebate.htm

I'll check them out.

progod you cannot interpret LIDULUUKI ASH-SHAMSI to be the mark or start of time of sunset or after sunset because of the Arabic word ILaa which is before the phrase LIDULUUKI ASH-SHAMSI.

The verse is 1778 ( I got in wrong on my previous message) and there is no 'ilaa' before lidulookashamsi. If someone said that they are wrong. Because I'm looking right at it.

Also your claim that Isha does not mean night is clearly refuted in the first link I gave you. All Arabic dictionaries will define Isha as Night. We should not make obvious errors like this. Our whole goal is truth and things like that are so so so obvious and it becomes so obvious that you can tell when someone is twisting clear data to fit their position.

According the Lane's lexicon http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000341.pdf

Eeshaa means all of the following

Primary meaning The time of Nightfall the first or beginning of the darkness of night.

Webster has nightfall as the close of the day DUSK

The other means of Eeshaa are

1. The time when the sun has dissapeared
2. The time from sunset.
3. From the prayer of sunset to the darkness of nightfall (and meaning that wouldn't have applied to Pre-Islamic Arabs and their Arabic)
4. Synonymous with Asheey which is the time from the decline of the sun from the meridian(late-noon) to the rising of dawn. As well it means the late part of the evening, the evening or the afternoon, i.e. the last or latter part of the day. Or from the prayer of sunset until the darkness of night (non applicable to Pre-Islamic language)
5. The Arabs often interchange asheeyah with Ishaa. "I came to him asheeyal-amsi or asheeyatal-amsi' means that I came to him late in the evening or in the time between sunset and night fall yesterday' Asheey means late evening.

Evening in English according to webster means a the latter part and close of the day and early part of the night b chiefly Southern & Midland AFTERNOON c the period from sunset or the evening meal to bedtime

So even in English Evening and nightfall do not mean the night. Ishaa in its broadest meaning means from late noon, until dawn. And in its primary meanings means from the setting of the sun until early in the night.

Also to add rub/rubbing is a very very poor translation of "duluk", which also have been addressed in the first link. Rub or rubbing sounds ridiculous, "to decline" is far superior.

Brother, this is not a poor translation of dulook. It is the translation of dulook. Declining is not a translation of dulook and only applies to the one meaning of when the sun declines from the meridian. That is it. It doesn't not mean declining. That can't be the superior meaning because it is not a meaning. Whether rubbing sounds ridiculous or not it is a meaning. You can say dalaktu nu'aali to say I rubbed my sandals, or dalaktu ra'si to say I rubbed my head. Mos arabic words are multiple meanings words.

I guess the proponents of the "3 Salaat Theory" must of brought you from the side lines as a desperate attempt to bring hope to a dieing belief...

I don't believe in 3 salat. I believe in 2. I was proving 2 Salat in my arguments not 3. Again I don't believe in 3 Salat. But if you want to pray 2,3,4, 5, 6, 7, 8 -100 times a day. That is your prerogatiave. I don't think God will find anything wrong with that if you can keep up with all of his other teaachings.

Salaam

Salam to you too.

Godbless,
Anwar

[progod]

Khidr,

I read through your page. Even though I disagree with you and only believe there are two times of Salat, I saw that you think there is an Ilaa in 1778
The only preposition there is 'li' and it means 'for' and can be synomymous with &alaa, at. It denotes the time. Li For dulookashamsi the setting of the sun/declining sun, the after that is ilaa until the darkness of night ghasaqilaili.

Godbless,
Anwar

[Al_Khidr]

Salaam progod

What I meant to say if I didn't express it correctly was that LIDULUUKI ASH-SHAMSI comes before ILAA and that is why LIDULUUKI ASH-SHAMSI could not be the mark or start of time of sunset or after sunset, thus it has to be before.

You have mentioned that you said 2 Salaat. Let me ask you this, you believe like Idolfree1 and some of the others that Allah only authorized 3 Salaat in Al Qur'aan for us to observe correct?

Salaam

[Al_Khidr]

Salaam progod

Look carefully at the Arabic text ILAA is in Qur'aan 1778 and ILAA literally means "till"

The preposition ?Li? in the word ?LIDULUUKI? is simply referring to the one act of the sun when it starts moving (declining) from its highest point in the sky (which is at Noon ) towards the lowest point (which is at Night ). So the command from Allah is to observe the Salaat starting at the period of time when the sun declines from its highest point in the sky (Noon ) to its lowest point (Night ). This range covers the following periods of time to observe Salaat (Zuhr, Asr, Maghrib, Isha).

I have been debating the "3 Salaat Theory" in this thread and now I see that you do not believe Allah authorized 3 Salaat, instead you believe that Allah authorized 2 Salaat. Now I understand why stillearning said we now 3 and now 2 what next or something like that. So its true progod, that you believe that Allah only autorized 2 Salaat in Al Qur'aan for us to observe as Muslims? Now this right here blew my mind in further away then the "3 Salaat Theory". What is next, what is happening to the UMMAH here?

Yes, please do check out those links that I provided you.

[Al_Khidr]

Salaam progod

I have read Lane Lexicon definishing of Isha and it is clear as day light that Isha means night or nighfall and that is the strongest and consistent definition. Everybody knows that isha means night including Lane Lexican. Lane Lexican made it quite clear in regards to the Isha Salaat its Night, the sun is completely removed from sight.

Salaam

[Al_Khidr]

Salaam progod

you have said this about duluk

"You can say dalaktu nu'aali to say I rubbed my sandals, or dalaktu ra'si to say I rubbed my head. Mos arabic words are multiple meanings words."

You have to remember a wise translator picks the best meaning for the context of the verse and look what you have highlighted up above rubbing "sandals", "head", etc. the context of 1778 is the sun, so the best translation would be ?when the sun declines??, any body who possess an elementary knowledge of Arabic will agree that is better then rubbing. We are talking in context of the sun not some sandals or your head here, that is where you are failing to grasp the deep meaning of 1778 and present the strongest translation that brings the depth of the Arabic text out. You are limiting the Arabic text here with rub or rubbing. Below is the strongest translation of the Arabic text and especially having knowledge of or being aware that ?LIDULUUKI ASH-SHAMSI? comes BEFORE "ILAA (till)"

Qur?aan 1778
You shall observe the Salaat when the sun declines from its highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Qur?aan at dawn. (Reciting) the Qur?aan at dawn is witnessed.

Just about every translations uses the word "decline" here for "duluk", except for your new founded translation.

Salaam

[FJ]

Selam all,

Al-khidr you asked

Which side of the fence do you stand under observing the prescribed Salaat 5 or 3 times?

Brother to be honest I like your article but I have not yet decided which side to stand on when it comes to observing salaat. Brother with this question and the way you sometime behave I feel like you are trying to force your decision... I hope you are not counting how many of us accepted your explanation. You did what you did and I appreciate that. I have been reading everything I can and am trying to follow the best and that is because I do not speak Arabic and thus am dependend on your explanations. I have not yet decided because so far I believed that there were two salat per day and the reason I believed that was because of the three private times that God mentioned in 2458... and now you came in and explain that there are five!!! confused Be patient brother if yours is the truth im sure it will prevail above all other explanations. I hope God leads us to the truth of this matter and if one is searching for that than surely God will lead him/her to that. I believe that most of us here are trying to understand this and that no one is trying to, at least not intentionally, mislead the others. That is why we should leasten to all views and follow the best as per 3918 and we should all be ever mindful to verify everything that we hear as per 1736.

Now my question to you is why God did not say regarding five times but three times? How can you explain this? What are these two private Salaat times mentioned in 2458 so different from the other three salaat times? And why it says other then these three private times we can intermingle? Maybe im wrong but I do not see any salaat during this intermingling, do you?

God bless all of you here because I learned so much.
FJ

[phoenix1]

peace Al khidr,

glorification - to praise, honor

salat- to connect, link, bond...etc

What does God gain from us glorifying It? nothing. God needs nor wants nothing from us.

What do we gain from uttering a few words? nothing. If we did, then sunnis, christians, hindus and all those religious people wouldn't actually be hypocrites.

Salat, like everything else in the Quran, is meant for our benefit. We are supposed to learn something from it, improve ourselves through it. It's not a meaningless ritual God wants us to do.

To glorify God is to display divine qualities in us. It is to act in the best possible way and glorify/uphold God's laws and system.
I don't think there are any specific times given. Before sunrise, before sunset, at night - that's the whole day.
that's what glorification means, unless I am wrong.

[progod]

Dear Khidr,

As for Eeshaa I am going to repost what I posted and I am going to put in color what is important

Eeshaa means all of the following

Primary meaning The time of Nightfall the first or beginning of the darkness of night.

Webster has nightfall as the close of the day DUSK
I saw on your page how you said that this was a ridiculous interpretation that even elementary Arabic speakers know that this means night. Well, I dare to ask, what if those elementary Arabic speakers are wrong. What if in religious ciricles (as you pull most of your meanings out of a book done by traditional relgious scholars) translate it as night, but it really doesn't mean that? What if those religious books that you have mistranslate the words. Those books have a purpose to religiously guide Muslims where as we are referring to lexicons that doe not have a religious purpose but enlighten us on how the Cl. Arabic language was used. Eesha could mean night in modern Arabic but that is not what it means in Classical Arabic.

The other means of Eeshaa are

1. The time when the sun has dissapeared
2. The time from sunset.
3. From the prayer of sunset to the darkness of nightfall (a meaning that wouldn't have applied to Pre-Islamic Arabs and their Arabic)
4. Synonymous with Asheey which is the time from the decline of the sun from the meridian(late-noon) to the rising of dawn. As well it means the late part of the evening, the evening or the afternoon, i.e. the last or latter part of the day. Or from the prayer of sunset until the darkness of night (non applicable to Pre-Islamic language)
5. The Arabs often interchange asheeyah with Ishaa. "I came to him asheeyal-amsi or asheeyatal-amsi' means that I came to him late in the evening or in the time between sunset and night fall yesterday' Asheey means late evening.Evening in English according to webster means a the latter part and close of the day and early part of the night b chiefly Southern & Midland AFTERNOON c the period from sunset or the evening meal to bedtime

So even in English Evening and nightfall do not mean the night. Ishaa in its broadest meaning means from late noon, until dawn. And in its primary meanings means from the setting of the sun until early in the night.

progod you cannot interpret LIDULUUKI ASH-SHAMSI to be the mark or start of time of sunset or after sunset because of the Arabic word ILaa which is AFTER the phrase LIDULUUKI ASH-SHAMSI
.

Why can't I? Why and How does the ilaa exlude the meanig sunset? How does the 'ilaa' make it impossible for it to say 'from sunset until darkness' instead of 'from the late noon until darkness'? From 'sunest until darkness' fits the description of 'Eeshaa given to you above. Understading it as from late noon until darkenss makes the time period for prayer longer and doesn't coincide with any other passage in the Quran. This doesn't even coincide with an asr prayer, this makes equal, the asr prayer(afternoon), the maghrib(sunset) prayer and the Eeshaa' (evening or dusk) prayer.

I know you don't believe that Eeshaa means dusk, but refer to what is in color above. Eeshaa means 'nightfall' and nightfall, according to Webster = dusk, NOT night.

As far as dulook, Dulook does not mean declining on its own, the declining is specifically connected to the sun. You have no reason to prefer this meaning declining. Taking it as the late noon sun doesn't reconcile 2458. If there is a prayer in the late noon, why is not mentioned here? If we take it as the setting sun it atleast coincides with the concept of one of the two extremeties (tarafay) of the day-time which is sunset. If we take it as the rubbing sun, then it coincides with both extremeities of the day, the sunset and sunrise. You may think that the rubbing sun is ridiculous because the sun doesn't rub anything. But the sun actually doesn't decline or set either. So the rubbing sun is the preferred meaning, becuase it coincides with the two extremities of the daylight hours.

So there are 2 times of prayer.

You may not like that. You may think that the Ummah is falling apart. But first let me ask what Ummah (or community) you are speaking about. And secondly let me say that if it is the community of people who follow the Quran, I consider that we are being englightened by study if anything.

Godbless,
Anwar

I guess I should be expecting to be bashed on your website soon.

[Al_Khidr]

Salaam Phoenix1

Your statement

?What does God gain from us glorifying It? nothing. God needs nor wants nothing from us.?

You got it backwards we need it NOT Allah and this is why Salaat is the highest for of meditation/glorification/praise. Allah does not meditate/glorify/praise, but we definitely need it for our souls and its incumbent among the Peacemakers (Muslims) who submits their will in Peace to the will of Allah.

For one you sound like a kafir

?What do we gain from uttering a few words? nothing. If we did, then sunnis, christians, hindus and all those religious people wouldn't actually be hypocrites.?

Allah has decreed for the Muslms to observe Salaat in the Holy Qur?aan and when we recite Faatihah, etc. etc. while we (Muslims) observe Salaat we do not ridicule this act with your expression, ?What do we gain from uttering a few words? Nothing?. Now I can see why you take the position that you do.

You have said this

?To glorify God is to display divine qualities in us. It is to act in the best possible way and glorify/uphold God's laws and system.?

And also Phoenix1 ?meditation/glorification/praise? is definately inclusive of Salaat. It is very very deceptive for one to absolutely remove Salaat from being inclusive of that meditation/glorification/praise.

You have said this

?I don't think there are any specific times given.?

That is because you fall under this verse

Qur?aan 4724
Why do they not study the Qur?aan carefully? Are their minds blocked?

You contradict Allah in the Holy Qur?aan when you say that Allah has not specified any given times or periods to observe Salaat

Qur?aan 4103
?the Salaat are decreed for the believers at specific times.

Where have you been at Pheonix1? Do you read Al Qur?aan? Do you follow Al Qur?aan? Are you a Muslim or not?

Allah has clearly outlined for us the 5 prescribed Salaat that Muslims are suppose to observe but I guess you choose not to? I am a Muslim and I believe that I am supposed to submit my entire will in Peace to the will of Allah unconditionally. This is very important in the life of a Musim who possess taqwa, which means to fear Allah or tremble at the mention of Allah. Taqwa, is a highly pious attribute of One Who Is Of Peace (Muslim)?

You have ended with this

?unless I am wrong?

and yes you are wrong. It is obviously clear that you choose to ignore the periods of time that Allah laid down for us to observe Salaat in the Holy Qur?aan. This is what Allah has said about some people among us

Qur?aan 1746
And We placed shields around their hearts, to prevent them from understanding it (the Qur?aan), and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Sustainer, using the Qur?aan alone, they run away in aversion.

I will close with this verse

Qur?aan 2436-37
36. (Allah?s guidance is found) in houses exalted by Allah, for His name is commemorated therein. Glorifying Him therein, day and night-
37. 37. People who are not distracted by business or trade from commemorating Allah; they observe the Salaat, and give the Zakaat, and they are conscious of the day when the minds and the eyes will be horrified.

Look how these verses says, ?Glorifying? and ?they observe the Salaat?. Phoenix1, its all connected but those with perversity in the heart wants to totally remove Salaat from being inclusive of meditation/glorification/praise, for the obvious reasons.

I forgot to ask you, I have one question for you. Read this verse below

Qur?aan 5249
Also during the night glorify Him, and at dawn as the stars fade away.

Phoenix1, when you read this verse would you associate this verse with performing Salaat or not?

Salaam

peace Al khidr,

glorification - to praise, honor

salat- to connect, link, bond...etc

What does God gain from us glorifying It? nothing. God needs nor wants nothing from us.

What do we gain from uttering a few words? nothing. If we did, then sunnis, christians, hindus and all those religious people wouldn't actually be hypocrites.

Salat, like everything else in the Quran, is meant for our benefit. We are supposed to learn something from it, improve ourselves through it. It's not a meaningless ritual God wants us to do.

To glorify God is to display divine qualities in us. It is to act in the best possible way and glorify/uphold God's laws and system.
I don't think there are any specific times given. Before sunrise, before sunset, at night - that's the whole day.
that's what glorification means, unless I am wrong.

[phoenix1]

peace Al Khidr

everywhere, when the Quran uses the word "glorify" it always tells us to do all day. That's what I see when I read "before sunrise, before sunset, and at night"
The verse you gave me, 5249, you forgot to post 5248 with it because it says
we should glorify God when we wake up. Then it says also glorify God during the night and dawn.

The rest of the attacks on me in your post are based on your thinking that glorify means salat and salat actually involves recitation of words.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Al Khidr,

Salaam Idolfree1

Below is your foolish statement

?It is your lack of study of this spiritual philosophy, but instead being more concerned with the color of the nation or the names of the Kings, etc., that is not allowing you to see the truth.?

Yes, I said that , correct.

Three things (1) I knew you were a fake when you declared you knew the scholars that I?ve been highlighting and weak Black men do not roll with men of that caliber

Ohhhh, so you assumed that when I said I know who you are talking about that I mingle amongst them? That would be your mistake. Pay attention a little more angry man.

(2) In the hood you know what we call Black men such as yourself

Yeah, you call me by my name if you dont want to get punched in your mouth. Hopefully I would be able to transcend that and react properly however.

(3) Idolfree1 why are you so hypocritical when you have made statements such as these

?Who says they had very little scientific knowledge? Thier artifacts prove opposite to that. It is only "White Supremecy" that wants to deny the credit of the Africans of Kemet(ancient Egypt). The SCIENCE of Kemet is still used today as well as the symbolisms. The "white supremist" movement wants us to think that anyone before Greece was ignorant and could not think scientifically. The truth is that the greeks learned from the people of Kemet.

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1131.0?

And what have I said that goes against that?

The one?s who have been playing the color game are your comrades, I?m just not an imp like someIdolfree1 who bows down to that and I am definitely not one who fakes like I?m into the Black knowledge but yet a turn coat inside?

Please provide example.

You have said this

?If you are following 5 salaats and 19 codes, I dont expect you to understand what I am saying.?

Bore me with more of your OPINIONS/STATEMENTS/ASSUMPTIONS because you have not brought anything to the table besides that. The people can see that you and the rest of the proponents of the ?3 Salaat Thoery? are lacking when it comes to getting down inside Al Qur?aan to prove your position. Like I have told many proponents of the ?3 Salaat Theory? if you want to just present OPINIONS/STATEMENT without backing it up with evidence that?s fine, Alhamdulillah, just as long as you are away idolfree1 that is not proving your position, and OPINIONS/STATEMENTS are something different from FACT, but when you take that approach in a debate as default it serves as nothing but DEFEAT. You and the others have been misleading sincere Muslims with that falsehood, but like the Qur?aan says once truth comes falsehood perishes

My proofs are ALL OVER this forum. Just do a search and you can see where I have gone over the same things over and over again.

You went on shuffling and said

?Regarding Khamitic philosophy and what you call "mysticism", please explain the 7 scorpions of the Ausar/Auset story.?

First of all you are not addressing anything that no body knows; secondly you would love to jump off topic-this is nothing but a red harrying to fill the void of your incompetence of this subject matter 5 or 3 Salaat.

Thats the answer I expected.

After hearing this

?The site you gave, is it trying to argue that the God has a name? Like humans who bneed names to diffrentiate one from the other? Nonsense!?

Now I can see why progod has problems getting you to comprehend what he is trying to enlighten you on in regards to the Arabic Langauge. This link you commented on
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/allah.htm
seem to disturb you again because of your promotion of a Greek Pagan term ?GOD?, that you constantly use over the original name of the Creator Allah.

I actually prefer "neter", but the word understood here is "God", and we are to deliver the message in th elanguage of the reciever.

You have said this

?God is indivisible and from where the Greeks got the word "Atom" (When they thought that was the smallest object)?

idolefree1 why don?t you talk about how the Greeks got the term ?GOD??

For what?

Idolfree1 you have said this

?You have errored by assuming that Kitaab means scripture and not "book".

Man, you must be kidding right? Kitaab in Arabic means ?book or scripture?, please progod break down this elementary Arabic word to your friend here, he needs it.

You are reaching out for help? Why dont you break it down.

Again below is some of your mystic nonsense that means nothing nor has a direction in any practical sense nor relevant to the subject matter at hand

?It is a metaphor for Universal Law, not the 114 chapter book written by an enlightened being. There is no par of the 114 chapter book that is off limits.?

Ok

Below is again is some more of your mystic talk that takes you around in circles with no end or meaning but an empty void of nothingness

?I advocate 2 salaat, which by the way is not bowing on the ground to some object in the sky. Its a time to join consciousness with subconcious to program your behavior, which is what "religion" is all about.?

Salaat is prescribed and it is deeper then your mystical babble here and I must highlight your statement or opinion here does not prove that Qur?aan 11114 represents 2 Salaat. It is clear idolfree1 that you are not an independent thinker, you just follow what is given to you for BELIEF?

OK

You have said this below

?The intelligent audiecne . By the way, is not swayed by your saying "intelligent audience" Only through verifyable answers.?

Notice that you said, ?Only through verifyable answers?, this is what the people has been waiting on you for to produce evidence inside the Qur?aan besides your statements saying that there is only 3 Salaat in Al Qur?aan. Below is my verifyable evidence

http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm

and

http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/grabbingforstraws.htm

and

http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/wakaszeehlatifdebate.htm

Where is yours besides your OPINIONS/STATEMENTS/ASSUMPTONS etc. etc.?

Please use the search engine

You have said this

?You should pick up the book Metu Neter by Ra Un Nefer Amen, the one who many of your so called scholars refer to in regards to Ancient Egyptian spirituality.?

Correction Cheikh Anta Diop came before Ra Un Nefer and as a matter of fact Ra Un Nefer uses Cheikh Anta Diop?s resources and Ashra Kwesi is much deeper then Ra Un Nefer when breaking down the Metu Neter.

Yes, Cheikh Anta Diop certainly came before Ra Un Nefer Amen and uses his excellent research where applicable, as he does others in terms of reference. I wont sit here and debate with you about who is better.

People are asking why don?t idolfree1 produce evidence in Al Qur?aan to support their ?3 Salaat Theory? and I think the answer obvious, they don?t have the evidence and never did.

Why dont you shuffle on over to the search engine and educate yourself.

[Al_Khidr]

Salaam Idolfree1

You have said the following

?Yeah, you call me by my name if you dont want to get punched in your mouth. Hopefully I would be able to transcend that and react properly however.?

If I read it correctly, uncle tom, it sounds like you said you will punch me in the mouth. If this is the case that you are actually saying you will punch me in the mouth must be direct result of your cowardly Muslim nature. I guess idolfree you have to play tough guy before your Progressive Muslim audience. Its so easy to make such declarations on the internet (cyber space apart from one another) but in the real world idolfree we all know you?re the type with shaky knees who flees. You gave us a good laugh for today, keep up your Richard Pryor comic act, we find it amusing.

Salaam

Peace be upon you Al Khidr,

Salaam Idolfree1

Below is your foolish statement

?It is your lack of study of this spiritual philosophy, but instead being more concerned with the color of the nation or the names of the Kings, etc., that is not allowing you to see the truth.?

Yes, I said that , correct.

Three things (1) I knew you were a fake when you declared you knew the scholars that I?ve been highlighting and weak Black men do not roll with men of that caliber

Ohhhh, so you assumed that when I said I know who you are talking about that I mingle amongst them? That would be your mistake. Pay attention a little more angry man.

(2) In the hood you know what we call Black men such as yourself

Yeah, you call me by my name if you dont want to get punched in your mouth. Hopefully I would be able to transcend that and react properly however.

(3) Idolfree1 why are you so hypocritical when you have made statements such as these

?Who says they had very little scientific knowledge? Thier artifacts prove opposite to that. It is only "White Supremecy" that wants to deny the credit of the Africans of Kemet(ancient Egypt). The SCIENCE of Kemet is still used today as well as the symbolisms. The "white supremist" movement wants us to think that anyone before Greece was ignorant and could not think scientifically. The truth is that the greeks learned from the people of Kemet.

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1131.0?

And what have I said that goes against that?

The one?s who have been playing the color game are your comrades, I?m just not an imp like someIdolfree1 who bows down to that and I am definitely not one who fakes like I?m into the Black knowledge but yet a turn coat inside?

Please provide example.

You have said this

?If you are following 5 salaats and 19 codes, I dont expect you to understand what I am saying.?

Bore me with more of your OPINIONS/STATEMENTS/ASSUMPTIONS because you have not brought anything to the table besides that. The people can see that you and the rest of the proponents of the ?3 Salaat Thoery? are lacking when it comes to getting down inside Al Qur?aan to prove your position. Like I have told many proponents of the ?3 Salaat Theory? if you want to just present OPINIONS/STATEMENT without backing it up with evidence that?s fine, Alhamdulillah, just as long as you are away idolfree1 that is not proving your position, and OPINIONS/STATEMENTS are something different from FACT, but when you take that approach in a debate as default it serves as nothing but DEFEAT. You and the others have been misleading sincere Muslims with that falsehood, but like the Qur?aan says once truth comes falsehood perishes

My proofs are ALL OVER this forum. Just do a search and you can see where I have gone over the same things over and over again.

You went on shuffling and said

?Regarding Khamitic philosophy and what you call "mysticism", please explain the 7 scorpions of the Ausar/Auset story.?

First of all you are not addressing anything that no body knows; secondly you would love to jump off topic-this is nothing but a red harrying to fill the void of your incompetence of this subject matter 5 or 3 Salaat.

Thats the answer I expected.

After hearing this

?The site you gave, is it trying to argue that the God has a name? Like humans who bneed names to diffrentiate one from the other? Nonsense!?

Now I can see why progod has problems getting you to comprehend what he is trying to enlighten you on in regards to the Arabic Langauge. This link you commented on
http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/allah.htm
seem to disturb you again because of your promotion of a Greek Pagan term ?GOD?, that you constantly use over the original name of the Creator Allah.

I actually prefer "neter", but the word understood here is "God", and we are to deliver the message in th elanguage of the reciever.

You have said this

?God is indivisible and from where the Greeks got the word "Atom" (When they thought that was the smallest object)?

idolefree1 why don?t you talk about how the Greeks got the term ?GOD??

For what?

Idolfree1 you have said this

?You have errored by assuming that Kitaab means scripture and not "book".

Man, you must be kidding right? Kitaab in Arabic means ?book or scripture?, please progod break down this elementary Arabic word to your friend here, he needs it.

You are reaching out for help? Why dont you break it down.

Again below is some of your mystic nonsense that means nothing nor has a direction in any practical sense nor relevant to the subject matter at hand

?It is a metaphor for Universal Law, not the 114 chapter book written by an enlightened being. There is no par of the 114 chapter book that is off limits.?

Ok

Below is again is some more of your mystic talk that takes you around in circles with no end or meaning but an empty void of nothingness

?I advocate 2 salaat, which by the way is not bowing on the ground to some object in the sky. Its a time to join consciousness with subconcious to program your behavior, which is what "religion" is all about.?

Salaat is prescribed and it is deeper then your mystical babble here and I must highlight your statement or opinion here does not prove that Qur?aan 11114 represents 2 Salaat. It is clear idolfree1 that you are not an independent thinker, you just follow what is given to you for BELIEF?

OK

You have said this below

?The intelligent audiecne . By the way, is not swayed by your saying "intelligent audience" Only through verifyable answers.?

Notice that you said, ?Only through verifyable answers?, this is what the people has been waiting on you for to produce evidence inside the Qur?aan besides your statements saying that there is only 3 Salaat in Al Qur?aan. Below is my verifyable evidence

http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/3salaattheoryexposed.htm

and

http//www.freewebs.com/suprememathematics/grabbingforstraws.htm

and

http//www.freewebs.com/tawhiyd/wakaszeehlatifdebate.htm

Where is yours besides your OPINIONS/STATEMENTS/ASSUMPTONS etc. etc.?

Please use the search engine

You have said this

?You should pick up the book Metu Neter by Ra Un Nefer Amen, the one who many of your so called scholars refer to in regards to Ancient Egyptian spirituality.?

Correction Cheikh Anta Diop came before Ra Un Nefer and as a matter of fact Ra Un Nefer uses Cheikh Anta Diop?s resources and Ashra Kwesi is much deeper then Ra Un Nefer when breaking down the Metu Neter.

Yes, Cheikh Anta Diop certainly came before Ra Un Nefer Amen and uses his excellent research where applicable, as he does others in terms of reference. I wont sit here and debate with you about who is better.

People are asking why don?t idolfree1 produce evidence in Al Qur?aan to support their ?3 Salaat Theory? and I think the answer obvious, they don?t have the evidence and never did.

Why dont you shuffle on over to the search engine and educate yourself.

[phoenix1]

How low can you go Al khidr? seriously, stop posting.

If you read Idolfree's post correctly, he didn't say he would hit you. Or that he would hit anyone.

[unknownuser]

Peace be upon you Al Khidr,

Yeah, you call me by my name if you dont want to get punched in your mouth. Hopefully I would be able to transcend that and react properly however.

Ooop!! threatening language .... o

[FJ]

Peace

Brother Al-khidr how do you explain verse 2458 where the three times are mentioned? Why did not God say regarding 5 times but He mentioned only three times and two of them are private Salat times? What are these two private Salat times mentioned in this verse that are different from the other three times? And why it says other then these three private times we can intermingle? I do not see any Salat during this intermingling, do you?

Here is the verse
2458 O you who believe, let those who are your dependants and have not yet attained puberty request your permission regarding three times Before the Salat at dawn, and should you put off your attire from being outdoors, and after the Salat made at dusk. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

This is the second time I am asking you these questions because the first time I asked you did not answer them. Maybe you felt they are not so important and you ingnored them altogether, but they are important for me. So please take some time out of your busy day and answer them honestly.

Anyone can answer not only Al-khidr even though I addressed the questions to him because I would like to hear his opionion.

Selam
FJ

Selam all,

Al-khidr you asked
Quote
Which side of the fence do you stand under observing the prescribed Salaat 5 or 3 times?

Brother to be honest I like your article but I have not yet decided which side to stand on when it comes to observing salaat. Brother with this question and the way you sometime behave I feel like you are trying to force your decision... I hope you are not counting how many of us accepted your explanation. You did what you did and I appreciate that. I have been reading everything I can and am trying to follow the best and that is because I do not speak Arabic and thus am dependend on your explanations. I have not yet decided because so far I believed that there were two salat per day and the reason I believed that was because of the three private times that God mentioned in 2458... and now you came in and explain that there are five!!! confused Be patient brother if yours is the truth im sure it will prevail above all other explanations. I hope God leads us to the truth of this matter and if one is searching for that than surely God will lead him/her to that. I believe that most of us here are trying to understand this and that no one is trying to, at least not intentionally, mislead the others. That is why we should leasten to all views and follow the best as per 3918 and we should all be ever mindful to verify everything that we hear as per 1736.

Now my question to you is why God did not say regarding five times but three times? How can you explain this? What are these two private Salaat times mentioned in 2458 so different from the other three salaat times? And why it says other then these three private times we can intermingle? Maybe im wrong but I do not see any salaat during this intermingling, do you?

God bless all of you here because I learned so much.
FJ