How do you explain this with regard to an all-powerful god?
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Peace enquirer,
You stated
if you think suffering is just an illusion,then i will leave you too it bro...That understanding is of little consolation to starving children is it? I cant seriously entertain people who are just avoiding and be-littling the existence of suffering as an illusion,in a vain attempt to glorify a concept of god,or their own personal beliefs.....Seems irresponsible....
Whoah whoah whoah...
What's with the attitude?Here's what I said, and apparently the only thing you felt worthy of replying to
Suffering and mischief is an illusion. It's like virtual reality. You put on the glasses and you see all this crap, and you do what you can to make things better. But eventually, it will be "game over", and you take the glasses off, and you're back to peace.
Your mind is temporary, your soul is eternal. I'm sorry if this nutshell isn't compassionate enough for you, but if I took the time to explain every facet of this understanding, I'd spend the rest of my life typing to you.
But now, since you've taken the liberty of assuming I am belittling suffering and vainly attempting to glorify God, please entertain this
Where does all perception take place?
Is it somewhere "out there", or is it in the arena of your own mind?However you decide to answer, or not, know that my position is that all perception takes place in the mind, and the mind is a temporary vehicle for this world only. There is no "out there". Does this mean I feel no compassion towards humanity? Of course not.
But your question wasn't about whether or not suffering exists. Your question was why would God allow it to exist. And as everyone has explained, you can't have part-time free-will. It's all or nothing, by definition, or it's not "free". A lifetime is not even a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity. This illusion of life and how we deal with it will be a speck of a memory, if at all, upon the next phase of existence.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace enquirer,
Please don't rush blaming the god for the starving children. In fact, the god has put on this earth enough food for everyone and even more, would you deny it?
The problem arises when some "civilized" people, abusing the free-will provided by the god, decide to put "imaginary" boundries to "imaginary" countries preventing humans from moving freely in the lands, looking for food when needed. And the irony in this situation is that the animals can migrate freely but not humans.
Would you still blame the god?
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Peace someone,tay and all.
Someone;Im sorry but if god is all-powerful,and can ease suffering when he wants then i do blame him totally for playing games with humanity....Just saying 'free-will','free-will', is not enough for me.....My little children have free-will,but would i allow them to do something that would definately harm them if i had the power to stop them...? No sirey,i would stop my little children from harmful behaviour,and teach them why this behaviour is harmful....I hold my childrens hands when i cross the road as i know that they are not old enough to cross it properly themselves without harming themselves....In this way i show compassion,concern and love for my children.....Why is this god playing games with members of humanity who are mentally and spiritually immature by allowing them to kill each other,oppress each other etc,all as part of some great concept of free-will and a test....? >( > > I show more compassion than this god by actually teaching my kids how to cross a road,but also holding their hands before they have learnt how to cross safely.....God seems too busy with his image, his glory and his schizophrenic test,than to actually help out his people practically,when many of his people are blatantly not ready for the full use of free-will....Tay;ok,you are entitled to your view,and im happy you try to be compassionate,i just find your view impractical in the real world,and how do you show me that their is only mind perception and no 'out there'.....? What am i typing on if thats the case?.... muscle
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Peace elke. If you keep pondering these 'tough' questions the answers may come....He/she who dares wins.... yay
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Peace,
Funny that in starwars the same conversation takes place and which results in him becoming darth vader...Skywalker is asked if he would force people in doing the right thing, he says yes, then she answers with that he is just as worse as the tirants he hates...To know what love means, you have to see the opposite to appriate what love really means. It is time people will take the blame on them selfs....
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Peace arnold. So the way the world is currently,is the way god wants it?
I dont mean forcing or negating peoples free-will/choices,i mean counteracting or defusing harmful use of the free-will....similair to parental control for young children,and/or law enforcement for societies long term peace and stability... -
Peace enquirer,
Tay;ok,you are entitled to your view,and im happy you try to be compassionate
sun
i just find your view impractical in the real world
Of course it's impractical in the real world. My view is about understanding where the real world fits in the big picture, in regard to your line of questions. Is it fair to ask me something metaphysical and then tell me it's impractical?
how do you show me that their is only mind perception and no 'out there'.....?
I can't show you anything, because for all you know, I could be a figment of your imagination, part of one long dream. The question is, how do you show yourself that there is an "out there" while everything you perceive takes place within?
What am i typing on if thats the case?....
Something called a keyboard, that you see with your mind, that you feel with your mind, and that you believe, in your mind, that other people see it the same way, and are reading your words.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace tay. You must agonise over simple decisions like whether to have water or fruit juice for breakfast my friend.....
Anyway,if all is part of my minds perception then why do i require things from outside of it to satisfy me,eg food?
Are you talking about the ken wilbur type 'one mind' theory or some such thing as; 'there is only mind'/one mind?
I am not aware that asking why god does not intervene in suffering is necessarily a pure metaphysical question...? handshake -
Peace arnold. So the way the world is currently,is the way god wants it?
I dont mean forcing or negating peoples free-will/choices,i mean counteracting or defusing harmful use of the free-will....similair to parental control for young children,and/or law enforcement for societies long term peace and stability...No, God doesn't want it in this way, but He wants us to figure that out for ourselves. I believe in multiple lives, not like reincarnation, but in several universes. We are still in evolution, our minds and our bodies. What we see now is a turning point in our evolution. But unfornately, not everyone is evolving in the same pace. That is the problem, but in the same time, it what makes people evolve. This difference in evolution of the mind, is what makes people grow. There will be a moment in our excistence that we will be beyond causing pain to each other. Then we will be at a point of evolution, you don't have to ask this any more.
Where was God during the holocaust, and where is God while people are starving in Africa. This is a question you ask, but i wonder, where were the humans? Where were the people who believed in the Good? I believe every soul will move on. And the harm done to it in previous phases of evolution will not be questioned by the soul, as it was meant to be his phase. I know i am lucky, i haven't starved in my life, or have seen war. But i still had my little share of tears and pains, but when i look back, i thank God for every tear. Because they are my tears. They were not meant for anybody else, they were meant for me. Even those tears i see as a gift.
The humanrace already has the keys to paradise, but they don't want to open the door yet...
Peace
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Peace enquirer,
You must agonise over simple decisions like whether to have water or fruit juice for breakfast my friend.....
Actually I prefer coffee
if all is part of my minds perception then why do i require things from outside of it to satisfy me,eg food
Like I said, this is virtual reality, like a video game. While you're in the game, your "character" needs sustenance. The illusory body requires illusory food to maintain it's illusory vitality. Yet this entire sequence is still only experienced from within.
Are you talking about the ken wilbur type 'one mind' theory or some such thing as; 'there is only mind'/one mind?
Not that I know of. Have I not explained myself well for you to figure out what I'm talking about? Please ask more questions if you feel the need.
I am not aware that asking why god does not intervene in suffering is necessarily a pure metaphysical question...?
Any discussion regarding the unseen source of all creation is metaphysical, by definition.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace
I show more compassion than this god by actually teaching my kids how to cross a road,but also holding their hands before they have learnt how to cross safely.....
See, this is where your whole argument derives from. You keep forcing your own thoughts/beliefs/actions/ways of doing things unto God, when in fact you cannot. This idea of God states that He is omniscient, so obviously, He knows things that we humans do not. There are too many variables for us to know, but there will never be too many for Him. When you look at the world through your own human eyes, you see what's going on and you are compelled to ask "why is there so much corruption/starvation/etc. when an omnipotent God could fix all that?" This is perfectly fine. I've even asked myself this. But again, I realized that, in definition, God knows all, and we do not, so He also knows what's best. I hope you can come to think about it for a little while and realize this. Please, none of us are here to win the argument. Please, just have an open mind once.
I can explain the existence of this world without an 'intelligent' creator by cause and effect,evolution,and the notion that all that exists (forms of energy.) has always existed anyway (ie, is eternal.) and didnt need anything to create it....If someone says that there must be a cause for every effect,well what caused god? The concept of everthing being eternal and 'uncreated' is similiar and more logical than the concept of ONE god being eternal and 'uncreated'...
Before I even reply to this, let me let you know that brother Arnold responded to you and you have yet to respond to him. You kind of just subtly dodged it and went along with other posts, which is very, very disrespectful. Oh well, only the status quo.
Anyway, my first point is that I don't think you understand the amount of evidence (empirical evidence, by the way, not "life experiences." Sorry -[) there is for the big bang. Read up on it.
Secondly, the Kalam Cosmological argument has already disproven the idea of the universe being eternal. The first argument is based on the impossibility of an actual infinite. The author shows that an actual infinite cannot exist; an eternal universe is an actual infinite; therefore an eternal universe is impossible The second argument is based on the impossibility of the formation of an actual infinite by successive addition. A collection (in this case the universe) formed by successive addition cannot be actually infinite; An eternal universe is a collection formed by successive addition; Therefore, a universe cannot be infinite. He uses all this to prove that the universe has a cause of its existence. The Kalam Cosmological argument is ancient, and very ahead of its time. I suggest you read up on things and educate yourself before you ramble on about something that had already been disproven. Here's the link to start you off http//www.leaderu.com/truth/3truth11.html Although I know you will some how dodge this, accuse me of something or just not respond at all, much like you did to arnold. So sad, a man old enough to have children has less decency and respect on a forum (where we discuss things, and respond to every argument that someone makes when arguing with them) than a naive and idiotic (it's unethical to debate me, remember?) 14 year old like myself. So, so sad. Oh well.
Peace
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Peace all. One thing i note which is quite amusing,and at the same time sad...That is when people quote texts,ideas,theories and 'common assumptions' in order to justify their ideas and theories...
All this talk of the cosmological/ontological/scientific arguments for god are old hat,have been disproven by many scientists,and are even considered weak arguements by believers in god... I think many people just quote theories which agree with their own subjective 'version' of reality rather than actually evaluating reality on its won merits by observing the world...Im sure many would reject or choose not to closely study any good scientific theory which refuted their 'conditioned' beliefs about god...
If believing in this monotheistic concept of god was soo obvious and scientifically valid, then most of the worlds scientists would be monotheists...So why accept or quote the science/evidence of people whose conclusion is not to believe in god?
Many times i read or hear people using fancy science talk,rhethoric and eloquent discourses to justify their unsound theories and conditioned/automated beliefs about god...This to me is like listening to a virgin teenager giving advice on sexual relations and marriage because he has read a few books on sex....
Wisdom is learnt from making sense of experience,not from relating scientific jargon which has not been thought through properly,or has not been personally verified to a reasonable level... -
Peace
Hm, like I predicted. Just dodge the arguments.
Peace all. One thing i note which is quite amusing,and at the same time sad...That is when people quote texts,ideas,theories and 'common assumptions' in order to justify their ideas and theories...
Person A has belief X and person B has belief Y. They're debating each other. Person A is going to bring evidence from whereever that is reasonable to support belief X. Much like person A, person B will do the same for belief Y.
This is how discussions and debates work. I'm sorry this offends you..?
All this talk of the cosmological/ontological/scientific arguments for god are old hat,have been disproven by many scientists,
Oh really? Much like I showed how your argument has already been disproven, could you have the respect to do the same? Where have they been disproven by many scientists? Please show me.
and are even considered weak arguements by believers in god...
This means nothing. You're just assuming things now, like always. And by the way, it's spelled arguments, not arguements.
I think many people just quote theories which agree with their own subjective 'version' of reality
rather than actually evaluating reality on its won merits by observing the world..."Many people" when debating, use arguments that support their beliefs. Read my first response above. Again, I don't understand why this surprises you and offends you..?
Im sure many would reject or choose not to closely study any good scientific theory which refuted their 'conditioned' beliefs about god...
Can you show me where you came up with this? You're assuming things again. Many people here study different philosophies, theologies, religions, etc. Don't follow conjecture.
If believing in this monotheistic concept of god was soo obvious and scientifically valid, then most of the worlds scientists would be monotheists...So why accept or quote the science/evidence of people whose conclusion is not to believe in god?
D D D D D D D
Wow. Take a course in logic. Now.
Many times i read or hear people using fancy science talk,rhethoric and eloquent discourses to justify their unsound theories and conditioned/automated beliefs about god...
You're right. I know this because right now, I'm debating someone who does this.
This to me is like listening to a virgin teenager giving advice on sexual relations and marriage because he has read a few books on sex....
Good analogy.
Wisdom is learnt from making sense of experience,not from relating scientific jargon which has not been thought through properly,or has not been personally verified to a reasonable level...
So wisdom is what you say it is? And again, you assume that people haven't verified things for themselves
Whatever. Just like I said, don't respond to any of the arguments I brought forth, just attack them. -[ With your logic and sense of disrespect on this forum, it's hard to believe you're old enough to have two children. Ugh.
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Peace openmind. I tell you what young man,you keep talking about respect and rules of deabte etc....Can you honestly tell me that you are respectful? Also,you really think your criteria for 'debate' is one i agree with? You are like advising me on logic,god,life etc when you probably have never had a long term relationship,driven a car,been to university,reared children of your own etc...excuse me if i dont take your musings on applied metaphysics too seriously,or get engaged in long academic childish debates with you,and others who use a similar methodology as you...I would advise you to actually live a real full life,rather than just posting things you have read or heard from others without a deep/reality based understanding of what you are actually quoting...Its not just you who does this,but many members on this site...its an easy mistake to make...You seem an intellectually very clever guy from your posts....I think your intellectual prowess would be much better served by applying it to real life experiences rather than just quoting theories and fancy jargon,or trying to refute things you have very little real experience of...Books can only give you soo much...I think the measure of true applied intelligence is how much 'self insight' a person has....How much of what we say or believe relates to our conditioning,parents,brainwashing,media,peer pressure,cheerleading,our psychological needs,our weaknesses,our misunderstandings.....?if we know/analyse ourselves we can ascertain whether what we are saying is based on reality,partial reality or plain illusional thinking...
We need to distinguish belief/theory from reality.....even subjective opinions can be much truer than so-called objective opinions....many a time the so-called evidence presented in a debate is little more than the person trying to convince themselves of the truth of what they are saying....I feel some are brainwashing themselves by repeating the same old half truths,illusions and automated responses...
The mind is the potentially strongest organ in the body,but it only gets generally what it sows....Sow illogical thought and it will get conditioned into irrationality.....Sow reality and correct thinking/insight in it and it will be conditioned to rationality....
I know people like to play with words to make themselves feel better,or win debates,or justify their theories/behaviours....But ask yourself why do people get soo upset or go too such lengths to prove things that are almost unprovable...? Hint,maybe to convince themselves,or make them feel secure,or too evade the unpleasantness of certain realities or fears they have in life...
Trying to understand ourselves and others from life-experiences is where its at my friend,if a person is soo concerned with debating or winning deabtes i suggest they analyse their own behaviour and try to find if their motivation for winning is a good thing....Wish you well young man,keep it real... handshake
ps; i do respect your obvious intelligence and your questioning of traditional islam,but your journey (and mine.) has only just begun....Take it easy... bravo -
Peace,
Enquirer, i do would like to see all these scientists you claim to say different. You know i study and studied physics, and only 5% nowadays believe in an eternal universe. 95% know that the mathematics don't work for an eternal universe. So pseudo-science? Where? The reality you keep refering to is that the universe has a beginning and an end, and only a first mover can explain this. A survey done in 1995 shows that 80% of all western professors do believe in somesort of creation and higher power. That they don't stick to religious dogma doesn't say they cannot believe in a higher power and creation. I don't believe in dogma's either.....
You act like your view is the most populair and supported one in scientific fields, but i know for sure it is the opposite. Not because i want it to be the opposite, but because i've seen it myself in science books. So you can bring the science in, but i can say already that you will loose that debate. So keep it to the philosophical questions.
Those are the most interresting and challenging ones and are the best grounds for wisdom.
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Here is a excellent site where some scientists talk about God
http//meaningoflife.tv/IMHO, the only thing some of them are lacking is to know the true Islam..
Peace
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Peace all. One thing i note which is quite amusing,and at the same time sad...That is when people quote texts,ideas,theories and 'common assumptions' in order to justify their ideas and theories...
Human wisdom is limited so what else do you expect people to do?
I can see justification in following any religion or believing in any philosophy/theory. I've even seen the most absurd, barbaric, irrational doctrines 'justified' using pretty words and comparing it to something worse. And then ending it with "Allah knows best".
IMO believing in a theory about there being a perfectly good reason for all the crap in the world (even if it is untrue) is better then dwelling on the problem. Dwelling on the problem leads to a big fat nothing brickwall. I wish i still believed in RK's why are we here theory, he was such an eloquent guy and that theory stopped me from moaning about everything crap in my life. I know my stress levels have dramatically risen since i've stopped believing in it.
I disagree with people that believe that God is a part of us, the Quran even warns people that say 'we are the children of god' if something as (IMO) trivial as that is considered a gross sin i don't know how god would perceive people claiming that god is a part of us. Considering nobody can ever harm him he is very sensitive to interpretations of him, I reckon he would see that as an insult. God is the creator and we are the creation. Nor do i confine god to a physical spot. My idea of god is kinda hard to explain.
I remember as a kid i had a laser pen it was so bright that the light went through my arm!! The light was not confined to a physical spot, nor was it a part of me, it managed to light up the whole room. I perceive god in a similar way. sun
peace,
sugar -
Peace. This is going to be the last post I respond to line by line, because you haven't responded to my arguments; all you have done is attack.
Peace openmind. I tell you what young man,
First of all, don't start the "young man" thing, please. Thanks.
you keep talking about respect and rules of deabte etc....Can you honestly tell me that you are respectful?
When you are debating with someone on a forum and you dodge their arguments, that is disrespectful. And yes, I can say as far as this forum goes, I am respectful, since I actually respond to every single argument the person I am debating with brings forth.
Also,you really think your criteria for 'debate' is one i agree with?
What are you talking you about? Are you saying that it's not disrespectful when you're debating with someone and you don't respond to their arguments? Because that's all I said.
You are like advising me on logic,god,life etc
Show me where I have done these things. All I said was to take a course in logic, and I was trying to help you there. Never did I "advise" you on god or life. Sorry.
when you probably have never had a long term relationship,driven a car,been to university,reared children of your own etc...
Well like always, you're full of assumptions. It's okay if you're not as intelligent as the average person so you have to use things like "having long-term relationships" or "driving cars" to better yourself. What does that have to do with anything at all? Later in your post, you talk about people being insecure. Does this not seem insecure?
excuse me if i dont take your musings on applied metaphysics too seriously,or get engaged in long academic childish debates with you,and others who use a similar methodology as you...
Long academic childish debates? What? ?? I really don't understand you man. ??? What are you here for at this forum? Are you here to convince people of something or to actually debate?
I would advise you to actually live a real full life,rather than just posting things you have read or heard from others without a deep/reality based understanding of what you are actually quoting...
How many assumptions can you pull off in one post? You're amazing. You don't know how I think and what I believe and what I read. Sorry. I know that because I'm 14, that automatically means I can't think for myself, read for myself, or that I'm brainwashed. You understand that if I hadn't said I'm 14, your post would be 50% shorter?
Its not just you who does this,but many members on this site...its an easy mistake to make...
Have you ever thought that you might be doing this? Ever? You know nothing about people on this site. Stop assuming. It's really easy, actually. You just stop..assuming.
You seem an intellectually very clever guy from your posts....I think your intellectual prowess would be much better served by applying it to real life experiences
You don't make sense. I know you try to be fancy and happy and fun with "real-life experiences" mumbo jumbo. Again, you know nothing about my life and what I do or anything. Stop assuming.
rather than just quoting theories and fancy jargon,or trying to refute things you have very little real experience of...
Enquirer, listen. I know you're so much older than me so that automatically means you know more and are much more intelligent, but you need to understand the idea of debating. Seriously, listen. When you make a claim that has already been disproven by science and math, and I simply show you that; I'm not trying to win. I'm simply showing you. Why do you view this forum as "I HAVE TO WIN THE DEBATES, I NEED TO SHOW THEM THEY'RE ALL WRONG." If I made a claim that had already been disproven, I'd be happy for someone to show me that! There's nothing wrong with it! I want to know! You really need to stop looking through this lens of win-lose.
Also, don't tell me "trying to refute things you have little real experience of." Please, you know that it's already been disproven and I was simply showing you. Don't belittle me to make yourself feel better by saying "I have little experience of it."
Books can only give you soo much...
lol
I think the measure of true applied intelligence is how much 'self insight' a person has....How much of what we say or believe relates to our conditioning,parents,brainwashing,media,peer pressure,cheerleading,our psychological needs,our weaknesses,our misunderstandings.....?if we know/analyse ourselves we can ascertain whether what we are saying is based on reality,partial reality or plain illusional thinking...
Yep, enquirer's profound words, etc. etc. yada yada.
We need to distinguish belief/theory from reality.....even subjective opinions can be much truer than so-called objective opinions....
What does this even mean?
many a time the so-called evidence presented in a debate is little more than the person trying to convince themselves of the truth of what they are saying....I feel some are brainwashing themselves by repeating the same old half truths,illusions and automated responses...
Sure, why bring evidence for a claim when you can just say it's true, so it's automatically true! Right? This seems to be the way you operate.
The mind is the potentially strongest organ in the body,but it only gets generally what it sows....Sow illogical thought and it will get conditioned into irrationality.....Sow reality and correct thinking/insight in it and it will be conditioned to rationality....
I know people like to play with words to make themselves feel better,or win debates,or justify their theories/behaviours....But ask yourself why do people get soo upset or go too such lengths to prove things that are almost unprovable...? Hint,maybe to convince themselves,or make them feel secure,or too evade the unpleasantness of certain realities or fears they have in life...Sound familiar?
Trying to understand ourselves and others from life-experiences is where its at my friend,
You need some more substance to your posts, my friend.
if a person is soo concerned with debating or winning deabtes i suggest they analyse their own behaviour and try to find if their motivation for winning is a good thing....
It seems to be you that's "soo" concerned about winning debates. I simply showed you that what you claimed has already been disproven, then you went off and started attacking me. Trust me, I really really really really don't care about winning or making myself feel secure, nor do I care what you believe. I have no hidden agenda. But it seems you do. You're very hypocritical
Wish you well
You too..?
young man,
Read first response. )
keep it real... handshake
ps; i do respect your obvious intelligence and your questioning of traditional islam,but your journey (and mine.) has only just begun....Take it easy... bravo
Thanks. I do respect your happy-fun no-substance posts. "Our journey has only just begun." Very mysterious and profound. You should take these thousands of cliches and put them to good use.
Again, This is the last post I'll respond to, until you respond to my original claim (highly unlikely). I'm tired of going back and forth.
Until then, peace.