How do you explain this with regard to an all-powerful god?
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Peace,
Dear enq, what saddens me every time, is that you always use this. I found 'inconsistencies, but i'll not point them out', if you have time to read them, then you also have time to point them out for us. And of course there will be some small inconsistencies or mistakes as i'm human and my ideas are evolving every day. But does this have anything to do with our discussion? None which so ever. Like you pointed out, i know psychology, and i see a lot of psychology going on here. Sometimes i believe you just argue just for the sake of arguing. You don't see me pointing to 'inconsistencies' or whatever, i just answer the questions. See the difference?
I would like to see the 'questionable science' you are refering to. You cannot debate matters, you pick and choose what suits you. But you don't have the background to discuss them. You have read a book here and there, but to discuss science needs a bit more then that. So i'll leave that discussion for now, as it is an uneven debate. If you would study quantum field theory, you wouldn't say it was just an assumption. To believe energy is eternal is the most background theory to believe, who is hanging on to old views?. And i never told you matter was eternal in another post, and if so, it is a typo, but never ever did i believe matter was eternal, as the laws which energy follows must be before the energy itself.
Magi and Danish never proved anything yet. Danish showed his non-knowledge and his anger against everyone and everything, and none could answer how all of these facts ended up in one book.
Science was the thing that showed me there was a Designer, but it was my heart who accepted it. Without the second one, the first one doesn't matter. Everybody is on his own path and level, i respect that. Explore your path bro, i'll explore mine.....
Peace
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Peace enquirer, all,
I find aspects of arnolds,tays and idolfrees definitions of god plausible,but i do not see how us being a part of god equates with the disharmouny and suffering i see in the world....These fellows have not explained to me yet how we can be a part of god,yet still these parts seem to fight,disagree and clash with each other.....? Free-will is not an acceptable answer for me,so you could ask them if they have any more explanations...
Just to be clear, brother, I don't recall ever "defining" God. The best I can do is offer my opinion on what I believe is the nature of humanity's relationship with God. But even this opinion is constantly evolving, and may never be accurate, because so many apparent paradoxes manifest as we jump from the world of human logic and physical law to the world of metaphysics and the infinite.
Any objective observer knows that both exist, but from this vantage point (being stuck in the physical realm) the ability to comprehend is severely limited. The only way to really "know" anything about the metaphysical is to transcend the physical. Once you do this, you "know" without words, and this information of the infinite can't be brought back to the finite. It doesn't fit.
So we're stuck with nuts-and-bolts definitions and concepts. People who have transcended in one way or another can usually get the point across to each other because the experiences are similar and the worldy definitions trigger memories and understandings of the unworldly. But as long as one remains stuck in the physical vantage point, no amount of eloquence or articulation can express the infinite.
Please don't take offense to this, but I really find it ironic that you're telling others to think outside the box while you yourself remain barricaded.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Peace openmind,tay,arnold and shuaib.
openmind; i believe the universe is eternal in terms of its matter,however it may have been in different forms at different times...Big bang is plausible,but doesnt mean there arent other universes out there as well,which may have 'appeared' at different times...
You believe big bang because of evidence,or because it may agree with some possible interpretations of the quran?Tay and arnold; you really do not understand my posts brothers,i dont take offense at what you say....It would also be much better if you and other posters admitted that your posts are opinions rather than some indefeasible evidences (same applies to me to.) ,as i see many of you justify your 'beliefs with recourse to rhethoric,divine authority,agreable science,western greek logic/philosophy and mysticism,then when pushed admit the 'possibility' of your opinions being ,not of a 'divine' nature....If you guys know your opinions are only opinions,why do you get soo defensive when i counter your assumptions? Anyway,isnt it more thinking outside the box to look at things with as little preconception as possible, (ie assuming god exists,quran is divine,etc.)
rather than making the world fit our beliefs...? I notice that when i believed in quran and one god no-one on the forum accused me of question dodging,narrow thinking or such like...It seems you folks resort to these accusations to posters only when they disagree with your fundamental assumptions.....Not very consistent hey?
I would also say arnold,you seem to think you are the main authority on science,psychology and theology....? I refer you to the site faith-freedom.org,if you are real in your vast knowledge then go to that forum and debate god,science and quran with them,i have full confidence that you will be easily refuted and defeated.....Lets see if you are up to the challenge...???Shuaib; Search the site for my thread on objectivity and subjectivity,it shows that the soul may be explained in time by science,and that scientific views of it currently are slightly subjective,though very possible....
It seems to me that when we didnt understand certain principles of how the world worked (such as gravity,water cycle,genes etc,etc.) we just attributed it to god,rather than think,hey lets wait for our observations (eg science.) to try to find out how these things work via cause and effect.....Seems to me that god is getting smaller and smaller now science is explaining many of the the mysteries of life...Whatever is currently unexplained people claim is gods domain,and then science unravels the mystery and refutes the beliefs....This god of the gaps is quickly running out of gaps....
muscle handshake peace -
Peace openmind,tay,arnold and shuaib.
openmind; i believe the universe is eternal in terms of its matter,however it may have been in different forms at different times...Matter being eternal is not possible. Many people have tried to show you why but you ignore what they say and attack them, by saying "stop quoting scientists."
Big bang is plausible,but doesnt mean there arent other universes out there as well,which may have 'appeared' at different times...
Other universes out where? Whatever is in the universe is in the universe. Outside, there is nothing. And of course big bang is plausible, it is in fact probable.
You believe big bang because of evidence,or because it may agree with some possible interpretations of the quran?
It's funny that you try to get people cornered with this question. Just like arnold, I believed in the big bang as well as evolution before I even cared about the Qur'an.
Peace
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Peace enquirer,
Tay and arnold; you really do not understand my posts brothers,i dont take offense at what you say....
I didn't say you took(past) offense. I said please do not take(future) offense. But it seems you did anyway. Sometimes these things can't be helped, I guess.
It would also be much better if you and other posters admitted that your posts are opinions rather than some indefeasible evidences (same applies to me to.) ,
I did say it was only my opinion, which you clearly recognize later in your comments...
as i see many of you justify your 'beliefs with recourse to rhethoric,divine authority,agreable science,western greek logic/philosophy and mysticism,then when pushed admit the 'possibility' of your opinions being ,not of a 'divine' nature....
You're free to see things however you want, bro. I myself don't look for labels to classify dialogue under. My opinions will always be my opinions. However they seem to you is irrelevant. It would be nice, however, if you got off your high horse and stopped with all the lecturing and simply discussed the topics. Notice how not one single word of your reply contributes to this discourse.
If you guys know your opinions are only opinions,why do you get soo defensive when i counter your assumptions?
See, this is where you recognize that I did call my opinions as just that. Please keep this in mind as you later talk about consistency. But on to your comments, they are quite vague, brother. An opinion is subjective - agreed? Now if what you're offering to counter my opinion does not make sense to me, then I will defend what makes more sense. Is there anything wrong with that, or would you have me simply accept your arguments without pondering over their validity? And please provide me an example of my being "soo defensive".
Anyway,isnt it more thinking outside the box to look at things with as little preconception as possible, (ie assuming god exists,quran is divine,etc.)
rather than making the world fit our beliefs...?Sure, but that's not what I criticised. What I criticised was your obsession with the "practical". That's about as deep within the 'box' as one can get. Look through your posts and see how many times you've used that word or premise.
I notice that when i believed in quran and one god no-one on the forum accused me of question dodging,narrow thinking or such like...It seems you folks resort to these accusations to posters only when they disagree with your fundamental assumptions.....
Vague, again. Please provide examples so I can learn from my mistakes. Show me the accusations, else stand corrected. I have no problem with anyone's beliefs. My best friends consist of sunnis, christians, and atheists. If someone agrees with me, then there's nothing to debate. If someone disagrees, then we have the makings for a debate. And debate should always be productive, or else it's arguing. Simple, right? As for my lone accusation, it was in response to your accusing others. Like I said, and by definition, your posts fit the description more than those you've accused. And that's irony. I'm sorry if it bothers you.
Not very consistent hey?
Until you can provide something concrete, then I'd say this question is moot.
May peace be upon you,
Tay -
Peace tay and openmind. Im not wasting my time on argumentation,assumptions and misunderstandings....Agree to disagree.....
peace muscle handshake -
Peace
Peace tay and openmind. Im not wasting my time on argumentation,assumptions and misunderstandings....Agree to disagree.....
peace muscle handshakeVery nice dodge. "Wasting your time on argumentation" ???? ???
Also, you can't "agree to disagree" on something that's not possible. Matter cannot be eternal. Please, show me where in my last post and this one, I assumed something or misunderstood something. You can't. All you can do is dodge and attack people and the way the argue. You're never here to discuss things or to get a better understanding of different beliefs.
You know you aren't here to do that. You know. Stop thinking of this forum as something to win. No one cares who "wins" or loses," we just discuss topics to gain a better understanding of the Qur'an and other beliefs. -
Peace openmind. If you feel that way then why discuss with me?
Good day... -
enquirer,
a good scientist understands the limits and domain of science. as far as the human soul goes, how do you expect "science" to explain something that apparently is not subject to its laws? the soul is something ethereal yet concrete. anyway, in addition, science tells you what... but it can never tell you WHY.
Dont get so embroiled in self-addulation at musings regarding elementary physical laws taught to children. It is a sore way for sure, to lose sight of the question of WHY. Religion functions to provide answers to questions of a different level, and Islam functions in the deepest and most serene and clear way to explain the position of the universe and our roles in it.
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Easy but not to sound smart. Everone has a free will to do as they will what ever it may be. If God gave hints to our free will to have peace then it would not be a free will. FREE being the key word. Secondf God has a plan for this world and has since before he created it. We were ment to be Gods companions and friends. We were the ones who decided to go our own ways instead of the way he offered. God is now simpley destroying this world because of our sin and unbelief. It is know up to each human being to change our lives, start living for the Lord and then maybe God would spair us his wrath. Futhermore God has also said that he would give those that serve him the best reword of all. Eternal life with him. So know we are back to the free will. It is our free will to live as we please. And our will that will either save us or destroy us. If you have any questions feel free to contact me at [email protected] or 910-257-6911
Sincerly Larry/Abuja
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Peace all. In reading a book about the 'non-existence' of god,a person put forward the comment that seeing all the uneccessary horrendous suffering of innocents in the world,why did god not have the power to let humans exercise free-will which simultaneously leads to only peaceful and beneficial outcomes....?
Why cant god grant free-will to all people,but also ensure this free-will leads to peace only......?
The comment thus concluded the non-existence of god.
If our free-will is absolute or very important in determining what happens to create this suffering,then at what stage (if any.) does god intervene to stop horrendous large scale suffering of innocents?Hi eq.
I think its the nature of anything faving a free-will to be prone to error! Unless there is some form of intervention!
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Easy bmbmm,so does god/allah intervene at all?
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Peace all. In reading a book about the 'non-existence' of god,a person put forward the comment that seeing all the uneccessary horrendous suffering of innocents in the world,why did god not have the power to let humans exercise free-will which simultaneously leads to only peaceful and beneficial outcomes....?
Why cant god grant free-will to all people,but also ensure this free-will leads to peace only......?
The comment thus concluded the non-existence of god.
If our free-will is absolute or very important in determining what happens to create this suffering,then at what stage (if any.) does god intervene to stop horrendous large scale suffering of innocents?Peace.
The God gave us all freedom and to answer your question when will The God stop the war in Iraq, here's the answer the war has already stopped! In the future and it's up to us to stand fast, get together, unify, and fight the bad guys with guns and not just watch them kill the innocent on that CNN!!!!!
I wanted to go to Iraq but i'm just one person!
I can't stop the bad guys from killing the innocent!
Can we?
Can we all do that?
Can 1.000.000.000 people who want peace fight all the Taliban and terrorists and win, that, my friend, is the question here and now.Peace.