Translation of `Jinn`
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and how does not having invisible beings to blindly believe in make everything pointless?
........arrogance ......., who said i 'blindly believe' .......thats right anything YOU dont agree with is blind belief right? you are just as close-minded as the sunnis, you just live under a different label. Don't confuse your point of view with the truth...
if you could prove to me (without abusing the Quran i.e. taking it out of context to fit your point of view) that these beings don't exist, i'd be more than happy to believe
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peace Imran
actually, when people have no reason to believe in something except their interpretation of a book, that is blind belief.
How exactly do I prove that they DON'T exist. I've never seen them, never heard them, never felt them, not even a faint sign of them. And what beings are we talking about anyway?
angels? those things with wings that live in clouds? well, the quran never mentions them. Malaika=controllers
jinn? those things that eat animal dung and live in holes? well, the quran never mentions them either. Jinn=hiddenI say blind because I see no evidence. You bring evidence, and I'll admit that their is something to these invisible creatures. That's how it works.
I'm not confusing anything. You are the one bringing muslim and christian mythology into the quran.
It's not even a matter of agreeing or disagreeing for me, because you are just giving us your beliefs and opinions. If there is no evidence, I have no reason to even consider that argument (especially when it makes no sense).
And yes, I know. I am arrogant and I have no faith.
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Peace be upon you,
The God expects us to be able to prove God's system. Because an aspect of our being is HIDDEN, it does not mean it is unproveable. Our thoughts are hidden, but we all have thoughts that shape our behavior. And "religion" is about behavior shaping so certainly our thoughts are a big part of this system.
Blind faith in unproveable beings has no place in this. Thats not a test of faith but a test of guilibility.
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Good bro, then seeing Him is a metaphor only not literal
Cheers
I have seen god literaaly, he is New Phrophet sent by Him amongst us.
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I've never seen them, never heard them, never felt them, not even a faint sign of them
i will leave you two to amuse yourselves and boost your egos....i hope it makes you feel better to call me gullible.... whatever helps you sleep at night..... so have you seen God? What does he looks like? have you ever heard 'him'? 'felt' (physically as you applied) him?
Blind faith in unproveable beings has no place in this. Thats not a test of faith but a test of guilibility.
by that rationale the existence of God is a test of gullibility?
since you ask for evidence, show me PHYSICAL evidence of God also show me PHYSICAL evidence of your hidden side
p.s. i dont believe blindly in this book, there are more than enough ayahs in it to prove to me that it's divine....
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peace
no... thats not what i said, you are asking for PHYSICAL evidence of jinns, i asked you for PHYSICAL evidence of God as in has anyone seen God....
you are saying that you see no signs (ayahs) of God around you?
to answer your question, of course i do, i just think you are being hypocrital in 'we want physical evidence of the jinns ! and NO faith must be involved, faith is blind !'
yet to believe in God you MUST have faith because no-one has seen him or heard him, not anyone alive today anyway....
But let me get this straight you dont believe in Jinns because you haven't seen them or heard them, but you believe you have a hidden side that you have physically not seen?
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peace Imran,
It's not only that I havn't seen invisible beings (that's why they're invisible, no?), it's that I listen to all views and follow the best, and jinn being ghost like beings isn't the best understanding, IMO. That's all.
Faith is fine, but faith should be based on reason. God has given us the ability to think for a reason. It's not there to be ignored.
There is a hidden side to me. We can all experience our thoughts and emotions. -
peace waleed
it's that I listen to all views and follow the best
really? waleed come on you don't honestly believe that do you? Everything i have uttered you say regarding this is to ensure your understanding ...not 'listen to all the views'
About the jinn issue read chapter 72 are those your hidden sides? thats right those are different jinns right? oh right because you haven't seen such creatures so they must be?
About the angels
351 Praise be to God, Initiator of the heavens and the Earth; maker of the Angels as messengers with wings in two's, and three's, and four's. He increases in the creation as He wishes. God is able to do all things.
jinn being ghost like beings isn't the best understanding, IMO.
it isn't because thats what you've told yourself ALREADY.
Faith is fine, but faith should be based on reason.
my faith is based on absolute reason. I try to question everything, I like to follow Abraham's formula....
I am just saying that if you believe in the Quran as the word of God you cannot possibly explain the jinns as anything other than 'hidden beings' , well you can if you ignore some verses.... If you are saying that everything must be verified in the quran and you will only believe what you can verify more power to you, i have received more than enough evidence in this world as well as my life to be assured that the Quran in its entirety is the word of God, but to each his own. And I don't live in a black and white world.
And you are picking and choosing because you say that the creation of jinns are allegorical but creation of man isn't? they are mentioned beside each other a lot, so why is one metaphoric and the other not? Why aren't you applying the same formula all the time? Which do you pick as metaphors and which verses are literal? whats the formula?
Bottomline to find the truth you must use the exact same formula 100% of the time, otherwise you will find what you want to find
Anyways, initially my comment about faith in angels/jinns was intended for those who believe them to be beings not metaphors, like i said 'each his own' but unlike you i wont call anyone a 'blind believer' I will let God be the judge of that....
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peace Imran,
Im not trying to insult you.
What I was trying to say what that if the Quran tells us about something that we cant see, hear, feel, experience, I would think it would give us some evidence, or a more precise description. None of that.About me accepting your views, you have to bring me more than just quranic verses. If there are actual beings wandering around in our world, then they should leave some evidence. I just want to see that.
If there is no evidence but your interpretation of the quran, then that is what I call "not the best understanding."
If you have experienced something that makes you sure, then thats fine by me. Im sorry for being so closed minded.I guess we can just agree to disagree until either side can bring a more convincing argument.
peace
p.s. do share that formula -
peace waleed
What I was trying to say what that if the Quran tells us about something that we cant see, hear, feel, experience, I would think it would give us some evidence, or a more precise description. None of that
do you see, hear or feel God? You applied the physical logic to Jinns, apply the physical logic to God as well. This is what i am talking about.. 'the formula' is to be consistent in your views. If the creation of jinns is metaphoric, so must be the creation of man, so must be God. You can't pick randomly what is to be a metaphor, be consistent in your methods is what i am saying. I just see no consistency. For example, if i am to take the jinns as metaphoric for the hidden side of man, chapter 72 makes no sense. And i see the thought 'well they are different jinns, not necessarily the ones created from fire' Do you take abraham to be a different abraham in different verses? lot to be a different lot in certain verses? Noah to be a different noah in certain verses?
About me accepting your views, you have to bring me more than just quranic verses. If there are actual beings wandering around in our world, then they should leave some evidence. I just want to see that.
If there is no evidence but your interpretation of the quran, then that is what I call "not the best understanding."
If you have experienced something that makes you sure, then thats fine by me. Im sorry for being so closed minded.see its not about you accepting my views, there are many views of people here that i dont buy into, but i dont think anything negative of it. I accept it because we are all different. I know you are not arrogant from what i can tell, i can clearly see that in your reply but you come off as arrogant with the whole black and white attitude. Like how dare I not take such and such as a metaphor. It's similar to how sunnis get mad when you dont accept everything in their hadith automatically. You have to learn to accept others for who they are, their experiences are not the same as yours. I really took this metaphoric view seriously, I went myself and studied every single verse in where the jinns are mentioned. And this is the understanding i came to. I like to take my time deciding, and i tried to do that. I still didn't see the metaphoric view.
Anyways, let's agree to disagree. I meant no ill-will, I believe you didn't either. I do apologize if i was harsh to anyone.
peace
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peace
I explained to you, we do see physical signs of God. The existence of God even makes sense logically.
Unless we have some sign of these beings, I can't accept the idea of their existence.I've been a bit frustrated lately because it seems people can't understand where I'm coming from or what I'm getting at, and that might've been reflected in my posts. I apologize. angel
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peace waleed
Unless we have some sign of these beings
i'd tell you s2s's story is a sign
I've been a bit frustrated lately because it seems people can't understand where I'm coming from or what I'm getting at, and that might've been reflected in my posts. I apologize
its alright, it happens man peace double-check before you post, I edit almost every one of my posts because my initial thoughts come out wrong, or sound wrong
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I went myself and studied every single verse in where the jinns are mentioned. And this is the understanding i came to. I like to take my time deciding, and i tried to do that. I still didn't see the metaphoric view.
Peace Imran K.
If you are interested by another point of view, feel free to read this thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.0Peace
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peace jm
thank you for the link, give me some time to study it fairly and i'll get back to you. I have glanced at your debate with Ahmed.
But I cant judge something i dont know thoroughly.
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Peace,
Whatever happened to my article? Jinns are not one thing, it is a description of an attribute just like the term 'walking being'. To make it a title as 'human' is ignorant. It cannot be one thing, just like 'walking being' doesn't denote one thing but everything that walks. The same is with the term 'jinn' which literaly means 'something not seen/rarely seen'. Can that description mean one thing only? Hell no. That is why the people who try to make 'jinn' a title for one thing only always gets trapped as the title cannot fit every verse where 'jinn' is used. When will people wake up!
The invisible beings idea doesn't fit because God talks only about messengers who are human, why would He send a book that is meant for humans AND jinns if there is no story in there that is related to them? Where are their prophets and books mentioned? And that jinns are only emotions or fantasies also doesn't fit, because in many verses it are beings which are called jinns, live beings. So there is no side to choose. Jinn is NOT a title, it doesn't mean one species.
Please people wake up.....
Here is my article again, it is not perfect yet, but it is a lot better then this bickering about which thing jinn exactly is. Wake up people...i'm going to bed....
Peace
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Peace folks!
Whatever happened to my article?
It went for a walk while you were sleeping.
Jinns are not one thing, it is a description of an attribute just like the term 'walking being'. To make it a title as 'human' is ignorant. It cannot be one thing, just like 'walking being' doesn't denote one thing but everything that walks. The same is with the term 'jinn' which literaly means 'something not seen/rarely seen'. Can that description mean one thing only? Hell no.
Whynot the that means so.
That is why the people who try to make 'jinn' a title for one thing only always gets trapped as the title cannot fit every verse where 'jinn' is used. When will people wake up?
Why do you want to impose your opinion.
Here is my article again, it is not perfect yet, but it is a lot better then this bickering about which thing jinn exactly is. Wake up people...i'm going to bed....
I find your article bickering... Do you tell yourself you are better than others? rotfl yay rotfl
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Peace be upon you Arnold,
I finally read your article. You did a good job and I agree with most of it. Jinn means "hidden/concelaed from sight", thats for sure. But I have different understandings of some of the other concepts that you tied in to this.
One thing I wanted to point is was
All these are true attributes of our ego, desires and strong emotions, the destructive side of man, as doubt, animosity, greed, hate and anger. That leads us astray. These are concealed attributes of our consciousness, and hard to control.
The underlined portion leads us to the understanding that the "jinn" are part of the SUBCONCIOUS, the hidden/energetic part of man, which you correctly likened to a garden.
Regarding "ins" and "jinn", This only means visable and hidden. When we reasd that there are "shayteen" from the VISABLE and HIDDEN, it means that our thoughts/images (hidden) and ACTIONS (visable) both display opposition to the God.
Musa's stick was found moving/shaking like that which is hidden. That which is hidden in the subconcious are ENERGIES (made of smokeless fire) and energy moves in a WAVE, just like a snake. This is a very old metaphor which was used as far back as Khamit(Egypt), which is why they had snakes on thier foreheads.
I disagree with jinn ever meaning some tribe or army, as they are both visable. All instance point to the hidden faculties of the subconsious, the energy part of being that is hidden.
Lastly, the understanding of JANNA (the hidden garden) and the trees being "deeds" or "ideas" is good.
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Peace,
Thank you kyle for your feedback. As for jinns also refering to strangers, tribes, leaders, highly intelligent people and so on, is because their origin is jinn for you. Jinn also refers to something beyond the horizon, as it refers to legends being beyond the horizon of time.
Strangers were also called jinn, as their origin is jinn/not seen. People like einstein would have been called jinn, as their potential is also beyond the horizon for most of us. Jinn has more nuances then just meaning concealed or not seen. Like if you would visit my country, you would still be an american, although you're not on american soil. Same holds for strangers being called jinn, as their country is jinn, beyond the horizon/not seen. It cannot be just emotions or fantasies, as multiple times, jinn is used for intelligent beings like sura 72.Peace bro