Translation of `Jinn`
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Ahmed,
I have replied to your questions in the following thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.15Peace
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Peace Layth,
Did we not read in the Scripture that humans are created from clay/mud while Jinn were created before from flames of fire?
This simple fact leaves no room for these discussions that we & the jinn can be one in the same.
I disagree. If jinn can be understood as "hidden", and in this context, the hidden part of man, ie, the soul, then surely the soul could have existed before the clay/mud/physical form. In the "Jinn a new insight " thread, Oben explains this much better.
Jinn are perhaps able to take on human form which explains how humans would worship them or set them-up as partners...It would also explain the issue of us not seeing them (i.e. there true form) while they can see us.
With all due respect, you could just as easily say that the jinn are a race of aliens, who received alien messengers, who believe in one God, etc, and who actually visited mankind in generations past, leading mankind to worship them as partners to God.
hmmm...that actually seems plausible -\
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
With all due respect, you could just as easily say that the jinn are a race of aliens, who received alien messengers, who believe in one God, etc, and who actually visited mankind in generations past, leading mankind to worship them as partners to God.
hmmm...that actually seems plausible
It is ineed plausible...The sightings of ufo`s and the stories of aliens may very well be the Jinn. The only difference is that people believe they are from outerspace, while the Scripture tells us they are residents of this planet.
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peace tay
If jinn can be understood as "hidden", and in this context, the hidden part of man, ie, the soul, then surely the soul could have existed before the clay/mud/physical form.
With all due respect ), There is a lot of extra-ordinary interpretations to get that result. I.E. Never does jinn mean 'hidden side of man'. Or 'the soul'. Believe me I have pondered this argument but a lot of verses to me would make no sense (Why are projectiles necessary against humans AND souls etc). Moreover, Why wouldn't God just tell us clearly that these jinns are our hidden sides or our souls. Is God shy? Is he afraid? The purpose of allegories is to help us understand. Not to cause mass confusion IMHO.
With all due respect, you could just as easily say that the jinn are a race of aliens, who received alien messengers, who believe in one God, etc, and who actually visited mankind in generations past, leading mankind to worship them as partners to God.
I know it's unrealistic to our human minds, but anything we are not aware(or cant imagine) of is implausible. But we haven't even explored this whole universe, none of us know that for sure.
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Peace Imran,
There is a lot of extra-ordinary interpretations to get that result. I.E. Never does jinn mean 'hidden side of man'. Or 'the soul'. Believe me I have pondered this argument
Brother, there is a lot of extra-ordinary interpretations to get any result - invisible beings, aliens, mythical creatures, etc. I have pondered all the arguments, and what I've come to is one definition cannot fit all the contexts. So, here, I'm not saying that it means "hidden side of man". I'm saying it could mean "hidden", and we must look at the context to understand what "hidden" entity/energy is being described.
a lot of verses to me would make no sense (Why are projectiles necessary against humans AND souls etc).
Precisely, which is why one definition does not fit all the contexts.
Moreover, Why wouldn't God just tell us clearly that these jinns are our hidden sides or our souls. Is God shy? Is he afraid?
In the same tone, why would God tell us that these creatures are made of fire, when we can see fire, but we can't see the creatures? Why would He tell us that men worshipped them, when we have no evidence of these creatures? No names, no bones. Is God a trickster?
The purpose of allegories is to help us understand. Not to cause mass confusion IMHO.
Tell me, how does believing in an invisible creature help you understand? Unfortunately, purpose and outcome are 2 different things. Here we are, confused. Perhaps confusion was the purpose.
I know it's unrealistic to our human minds, but anything we are not aware(or cant imagine) of is implausible. But we haven't even explored this whole universe, none of us know that for sure.
Like I said, it's plausible, not implausible.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace,
Layth as well as several others have focussed the argument of 'jinn' not being humans to 1526-27.
The problem is that they are assuming that 'jinn' is a separate "race" or being. Noone has established this assumption nor is any evidence presented. This is somewhat like the falsehood that traditionalists believe - that "angels" are made of light. This is pure conjecture.
Layth argues that because the two things are not made of the same thing that they represent different beings. This is a very simplistic view. Your skull and bones are made of hydroxy-apatite or what in the prophet's language would have been "rock" and yet you are also made of water. Does this mean that we are not the one being?
But let's leave these analogies and examine our common reference point for evidence. I believe the following verse puts to rest any doubt and in one stroke demolishes all the past belief that there are mythical beings that traditionalist imaginations have created.
2130 Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?
Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
If you believe that "jinn" are living things then 2130 means they must be made of water. This is a bald fact. An inescapable reality.
Therefore a "jinn" is not a separate type of mythical being. It is merely an aspect of us.
Compare to...
2957 Every "nafs" will taste death, then to us you will be ultimately returned.
Kullu nafsin tha-iqatu almawti thumma ilayna turjaAAoona
Going with the false logic of the mythical jinn believers then this verse would prove that there is yet another type of 'being' called a "nafs".
The truth as we know in that case is that a "nafs" is within us. So is the "jinn".
Regards.
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I need ed a laugh
Thanks brother truth
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I need ed a laugh
Thanks brother truth
4911 O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor let some women laugh at others It may be that the (latter are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.
Peace.
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peace tay
So, here, I'm not saying that it means "hidden side of man". I'm saying it could mean "hidden", and we must look at the context to understand what "hidden" entity/energy is being described.
Understood.
Precisely, which is why one definition does not fit all the contexts.
I agree. Tell me which definitions you would use, if you don't mind.
Why would He tell us that men worshipped them, when we have no evidence of these creatures? No names, no bones. Is God a trickster?
So just because we have no 'evidence' means they don't exist? And no... not to me.
Tell me, how does believing in an invisible creature help you understand?
I didnt mean this, I meant generally. At any rate, you are right it doesn't matter.
Unfortunately, purpose and outcome are 2 different things. Here we are, confused. Perhaps confusion was the purpose.
Yes they are.... Why would confusion be the purpose though?
And are you going by Truth's view of jinns? And/Or what is your view of jinns?
Peace.
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peace
To those who are propoenents of the jinns is our soul/part of our soul
Are we born perfect? And this jinn leads us to the wrong path?
Why will we and the jinns be punished?
Who are the companions mentioned in 4125? They are ONLY assigned to rejecters.
Explain to this how is this possible when reading 4629.
Explain to me chapter 114 with this view?
Explain to me Solomon's story in 3412-14
Thanks
God bless
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Why will we and the jinns be punished?
224 If you cannot do this - and you can never do this - then beware of the Hellfire, whose fuel is people and rocks; it awaits the disbelievers.
Fa-in lam tafAAaloo walan tafAAaloo faittaqoo alnnara allatee waqooduha alnnasu waalhijaratu oAAiddat lilkafireenaAre rocks "punished" also?
Is a rock a type of being also?
The assumptions and preconceived ideas that people have are preventing their minds from understanding these simple things.
Who are the companions mentioned in 4125? They are ONLY assigned to rejecters.
Explain to this how is this possible when reading 4629.
The companions are clarified in 4336-37. It is clear from this that these are not some mythical beings but rather human companions who exhort to evil.
4336 Anyone who disregards the message of the Most Gracious, we appoint a devil to be his constant companion.
Waman yaAAshu AAan thikri alrrahmani nuqayyid lahu shaytanan fahuwa lahu qareenun4337 Such companions will divert them from the path, yet make them believe that they are guided.
Wa-innahum layasuddoonahum AAani alssabeeli wayahsaboona annahum muhtadoonaThe other instances are also explainable under the not one meaning for all instances understanding. The "jinn" of the Solomon story and chapter 72 etc. who listened to the prophet and the reading are obviously tribes that went under the name of "jinn".
Regards.
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peace truth
Are rocks "punished" also?
Is a rock a type of being also?
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The descriptions of hell are ALLEGORICAL. (I am referring to hell not WHO is going to hell.)
The companions are clarified in 4336-37. It is clear from this that these are not some mythical beings but rather human companions who exhort to evil.
Okay the rejecters have human companions who exhort to evil. Another words believers/submitters don't have any human companions who try to exhort them to do evil?
The assumptions and preconceived ideas that people have are preventing their minds from understanding these simple things
No need to be arrogant. You assume that I have preconceived ideas. When I don't. I am into consuming all the information and decide what's best.
Peace be with you
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Peace Imran,
Tell me which definitions you would use, if you don't mind.
I don't mind, but I don't have a solid answer. Jinn and salat are 2 concepts that I cannot commit on until it makes perfect sense to me. So, for the sake of progress, I'm chipping away at what these concepts are not.
So just because we have no 'evidence' means they don't exist? And no... not to me.
That wasn't my intention. If you recall, I started my thoughts with, "In the same tone,...". What I was doing was following your logic. You said, "Why wouldn't God just tell us clearly that these jinns are our hidden sides or our souls. Is God shy? Is he afraid?" And I followed with, "Why would He tell us that men worshipped them, when we have no evidence of these creatures? No names, no bones. Is God a trickster?"
What I'm demonstrating, brother, is that it is not within our capacity to get into the "why" of God's chosen words. It is only in our capacity to try to find the guidance that results from those words. I hope you understand. I don't think God is a trickster. And I'm sure you don't think God is shy or afraid. But we can spend days on end throwing these comments back and forth with no progress, because that path does not lead anywhere.
Why would confusion be the purpose though?
It's just a thought. Perhaps the term "jinn" itself is a trial for the believers and non-believers. Only God knows.
And are you going by Truth's view of jinns? And/Or what is your view of jinns?
As always, Oben's thoughts are well-conceived, well-supported, and logical. I think we're on the same page, but maybe different paragraphs. As I said, for me, this is an evolving understanding and I have no position to stand behind besides the likelihood that "jinn" means different things in different contexts. Sometimes the best way to figure out what something is, is by making note of what it is not.
My understanding thus far is that jinn are not creatures of any sort.
Peace,
Tay -
I need ed a laugh
Thanks brother truth
4911 O ye who believe! Let not some men among you laugh at others It may be that the (latter) are better than the (former) Nor let some women laugh at others It may be that the (latter are better than the (former) Nor defame nor be sarcastic to each other, nor call each other by (offensive) nicknames Ill-seeming is a name connoting wickedness, (to be used of one) after he has believed And those who do not desist are (indeed) doing wrong.
Peace.
LOL bro
thanks for the laugh again but nice try bro, ii was laughing at what you said not at you
LOL
you made my day
Cheers
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Peace Ahmed,
It seems you've found a loophole in God's guidance. Perhaps the words exist without the person who spoke them? If I laughed at someone with a disability, could I say I'm not laughing at the person, but at the disability?
Peace,
TayLOL bro
the verse is clear man, but it is up to you if you want to call ikt a loophole,
Bro you too had a nice try, But it does not make sense indeed because the disability is part of the person
if you laugh at the disability then you will be laughing at that person hence 4911 will apply to you but if you laugh at what I say because what I say is just load of rubbish and does not make any sense to a child then 4911 does not apply to you
Cheers
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Peace Ahmed,
I understand. The words are not a part of the person, so you can laugh at the words as long as they are "rubbish according to Ahmed". Do you laugh at your children when they speak incorrectly? How about when they draw you a picture for a special occasion - do you laugh at the drawings? Drawings are not a part of the person, right? How about when someone cooks you a meal that you don't like, do you laugh at the meal?
I'll remember this the next time someone comes to me seeking heartfelt advice. I'll laugh at them, and tell them not worry, it's the words I'm laughing at, not them.
A loophole indeed.
Peace,
Tay -
2130 Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?
Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
If you believe that "jinn" are living things then 2130 means they must be made of water. This is a bald fact. An inescapable reality.
Very good point !
Therefore a "jinn" is not a separate type of mythical being. It is merely an aspect of us.
Compare to...
2957 Every "nafs" will taste death, then to us you will be ultimately returned.
Kullu nafsin tha-iqatu almawti thumma ilayna turjaAAoona
Going with the false logic of the mythical jinn believers then this verse would prove that there is yet another type of 'being' called a "nafs".
The truth as we know in that case is that a "nafs" is within us. So is the "jinn".
Regards.
IMHO, the word jinn is used to describe a fiery (arrogant, proud...) mindset.
Iblis symbolically personalises this mindset.
And the word jinn is also used to refer to a class of human beings known to be proud/arrogant in a chiefdom system the chiefs/nobles.
Cf http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=4435.0Peace
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace bro
I understand. The words are not a part of the person,
Good so why you suggested that laughing will be at the person not at the words that is not part of him?
Bro this is a professional job called Stand up Comedian, so why feel insulted?
I don?t know, does the people laugh at the stand up comedian or they laugh at what he/she says?, well if they laugh does the stand up comedian feels insulted?, I?d say no, because they were not laughing at him rather at what he said
so you can laugh at the words as long as they are "rubbish according to Ahmed".
Load of rubbish is an Australian term, however regardless of that when you face others with the truth the sequence may be as follow
- they feel hurt (the truth hurts as you know)
- then they can?t handle that truth
- they start arguing further and waste more time on loads of rubbish
Do you laugh at your children when they speak incorrectly?
Of course but my children are mature and don?t feel insulted
How about when they draw you a picture for a special occasion - do you laugh at the drawings?
If it is laughable I have to laugh, I?m not a hypocrite nor double faced, if my children work is s*** I will tell them that and if it is laughable I have to laugh and possibly they will laugh with me
Drawings are not a part of the person, right?
That?s right, and it can be really funny or stupid drawing, you know they are kids
How about when someone cooks you a meal that you don't like, do you laugh at the meal?
That is not funny to laugh but I will clearly tell them that the food is s***, in fact my son Nany is from Thailand, and their food really stinks man and I will always tell her that no way I will eat that s***, LOL, I think they use something called fish oil which I reckon the s*** smells better
I'll remember this the next time someone comes to me seeking heartfelt advice. I'll laugh at them, and tell them not worry, it's the words I'm laughing at, not them.
Cool, I?m glad I taught you somethin
A loophole indeed.
Peace,
TayFine, I?m professional in finding loopholes
Cheers
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2130 Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?
Awa lam yara allatheena kafaroo anna alssamawati waal-arda kanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalna mina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afala yu/minoona
If you believe that "jinn" are living things then 2130 means they must be made of water. This is a bald fact. An inescapable reality.
Very good point !
Peace bro
why it is good I wonder?
under that flawed point then the Quran has a contradiction because the Quran said humans were created from soil, now the above says everything alive is created from water
please resolve the contradiction Oben has hatched with his flawed point
Salam
