IS-LAM, HIS-LAM and MIS-LAM
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Peace Danish
You will have to defend your primary points in post #1 or this thread will be done with. The rules must be adhered to. Thanks.
Joe
Peace Joe,
No worries whatsoever. If you notice that my first post is defined and self explanatory and none has come forward to question or discuss them out. This thread has nothing to do with quranic divinity but rather translation and transliterate exercises by variants of Islam for which it was intended, hence the question of transfer from general section by Nadia. The replies puffed out by other members are nothing but personal attacks and diversionary, disappointedly infiltrated. It seems that the member 'truth's' aorta got struck by lightning and flushed part of his heart out. Why haven't they been warned or their unprecended posts removed as per forum rule? What happened to the manners and respect talked about with such prejudice or is it becoming a political norm of finger-pointing and favoritism when the onus of defending gets unbearable and shifted to bar one out. Dam if you do, dam if you don't is the justice and rule of this forum by certain 'elite'.
I shall answer to shuaib's post soon.
edit and by the way, isn't this section (Quranic divinity) created for its purpose, so what's the fuss about.
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This thread has nothing to do with quranic divinity but rather translation and transliterate exercises by variants of Islam for which it was intended, hence the question of transfer from general section by Nadia.
Ah I see, so the quotes below have nothing to do with divinity of the quran...
QURAN ? a mixture of folklore, poetry, events/circumstances, tales of pre-Islamic history, Muhammad?s written and oral narrative ideologies, inscriptions, etc., all collected and compiled together in a mumbo jumbo fashion (repetitions, incomplete sentences, inconsistencies, contradictions, ?irregular narrative compilation?, merciful vs merciless and widom vs ignorant sentences, hell vs heaven, the do as I say or else, recall this and that, remember this and that, he/she said this and that, and so forth) by several men and later given a ?touch of essence? (chaptering, numbering, dialectal, grammatical and titling) in its current form, rejuvinating to become the BEST HADITH. Such is the GOD of Islam, Hislam amd Mislam.
Seeing from the Quranic (as understood above), the Allah (concept of GOD) and as well as from an historical/ancient point of view (origination of Islam), any major translation of specific words becomes superfluous and absurd, and hence the difficulty and confusion arising from understanding the true nature of Quran in which it speaks.
The true nature of quran being? Is the 'true nature' /'divinity' being questioned or statements made about it? I'm amazed that one could think the first post has nothing to do with the divinity of the quran.
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This thread has nothing to do with quranic divinity but rather translation and transliterate exercises by variants of Islam for which it was intended, hence the question of transfer from general section by Nadia.
Ah I see, so the quotes below have nothing to do with divinity of the quran...
QURAN ? a mixture of folklore, poetry, events/circumstances, tales of pre-Islamic history, Muhammad?s written and oral narrative ideologies, inscriptions, etc., all collected and compiled together in a mumbo jumbo fashion (repetitions, incomplete sentences, inconsistencies, contradictions, ?irregular narrative compilation?, merciful vs merciless and widom vs ignorant sentences, hell vs heaven, the do as I say or else, recall this and that, remember this and that, he/she said this and that, and so forth) by several men and later given a ?touch of essence? (chaptering, numbering, dialectal, grammatical and titling) in its current form, rejuvinating to become the BEST HADITH. Such is the GOD of Islam, Hislam amd Mislam.
Seeing from the Quranic (as understood above), the Allah (concept of GOD) and as well as from an historical/ancient point of view (origination of Islam), any major translation of specific words becomes superfluous and absurd, and hence the difficulty and confusion arising from understanding the true nature of Quran in which it speaks.
The true nature of quran being? Is the 'true nature' /'divinity' being questioned or statements made about it? I'm amazed that one could think the first post has nothing to do with the divinity of the quran.
The quotes specifies what's contained within the Quran, thus the misunderstanding of interpretations, as is the fact throughtout the Muslim world. And why have ignored the rest of my post?
I've got to leave now and shall be back later.
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The quotes specifies what's contained within the Quran, thus the misunderstanding of interpretations, as is the fact throughtout the Muslim world. And why have ignored the rest of my post?
The quote specifies the nature of the quran/what is contained in it according to you and makes statements about it thus bringing into question it's divinity. I don't need to address the 'rest' of your post.
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Peace Danish,
IS-LAM ? the pagan dogmatic idolworshipping religion orignially bought about by Muhammad in its own historic ancient time via man-made deities.
OK. Except we don't know who Muhammad (or if that really was his name) was and the only thing we have from him is the Quran. So judge his message based on that.
HIS-LAM ? the pagan dogmatic idolworshipping religon conveniently bought about by the bifurcated Sunni/Shia long after the death of Muhammad (a self made deity).
conveniently? and how was Muhammad a self made deity? please explain.
MIS-LAM ? the newly innovated dogmatic idolworshipping system currently bought about by the confusionists of Islam via missing-in-action and transformation of original words of a deity named ?Allah?.
Please explain who these Mislamic people are and why their system is dogmatic and idolworshipping.
And explain what you mean by "missing in action" and "transformation."QURAN ? a mixture of folklore, poetry, events/circumstances, tales of pre-Islamic history, Muhammad?s written and oral narrative ideologies, inscriptions, etc., all collected and compiled together in a mumbo jumbo fashion (repetitions, incomplete sentences, inconsistencies, contradictions, ?irregular narrative compilation?, merciful vs merciless and widom vs ignorant sentences, hell vs heaven, the do as I say or else, recall this and that, remember this and that, he/she said this and that, and so forth) by several men and later given a ?touch of essence? (chaptering, numbering, dialectal, grammatical and titling) in its current form, rejuvinating to become the BEST HADITH. Such is the GOD of Islam, Hislam and Mislam.
OK. But maybe there is some guidance to be found in this book? Many here, including myself, have found guidance in it. Even the ones who doubt that it's really that great of a book.
You don't have any evidence of how it was compiled. And it shouldn't matter. Judge the book by it's content, not by it's history.
As for the content, maybe all that folklore, poetry, events, tales of pre Islamic history, Muhammad's ideologies, and inscriptions are there for a reason.
and If you wouldn't mind, provide us with an example of inconsistencies.Seeing from the Quranic (as understood above), the Allah (concept of GOD) and as well as from an historical/ancient point of view (origination of Islam), any major translation of specific words becomes superfluous and absurd, and hence the difficulty and confusion arising from understanding the true nature of Quran in which it speaks.
can I have an example, please?
Also, I wouldn't trust Islamic history so much. And I wouldn't judge people's beliefs by what happened in the past. I like the present.
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Danish, your remarks quite frankly are a good example of bigotry. There is a fine line between disagreement and discrimination, and it would appear to me that you have crossed that line.
I would request the moderators to, at the very least, view this as a strike 1 for Danish. His comments are bordering along the lines of our other recently banned member apple pie, who finally attempted to "prove" that Muslims worship the devil. Saying Islam is an "idol-worshipping religion" is in my mind, going along that same path. It's a completely ridiculous and very insulting statement. I don't know if you follow a religion or not, but a basic teaching in any religion and any etiquette is control of the tongue.
Ignoring that outburst, to answer the original question of why it could be that Allah would allow his previous revelations to be corrupted, I'll let whoever is interested research it further but I will paraphrase a basic explanation.
Mankind was obviously not born into a sophisticated society. It started at a very primative stage, as far as we can tell they followed simple rules and had very simple lives, e.g. hunter gatherers. Eventually as the science of agriculture became more widespread and villages began to be formed with stable families and tribes, society became more sophisticated. Eventually these small villages would go on to form cities and nations and then eventually these nations would meet and clash with each other. Each of these steps in society had their own unique challenges and circumstances, and each nation had its messenger sent from Allah with guidance/scripture. These guidances helped to move mankind in the proper direction for the development of society and mankind at large. Think of it as a sculptor who chips away at the marble, slowly shaping it with each strike.
So for a great period of time, these guidances were basically circumstancial and temporary, not meant to be permanent. They were for a specific society for a specific time, and the reason it was done this way was to slowly guide mankind towards the point where society reached enough sophistication and understanding to receive the full and final message. Once that stage was achieved, that message was to be preserved for all people for all time. That message (i.e. Quran) also encompassed many previous teachings but also has teachings beyond the previous ones.
The above should provide a basic framework to understand the real idea behind abrogation. I'll leave it to whoever is interested to research the matter further.
this has nothing to do with my being any better than you, rather it is a demand that you observe some basic respect. It is not personal bickering to ask you to treat Islam and Muslims with a basic level of respect that ANYONE deserves.
You would have more of a leg to stand on if your comment wasn't so outrageously ridiculous and inflammatory.
As far as my "brethren" who are concerned about damning/blaming other Muslims, if I see that happen I would speak out against that as well... don't take Muslim on Muslim bashing as a free-pass for you to bash Islam as a whole. There is a fine line between disagreement and bigotry/discrimination, and you have crossed that line.
I will try to respond to both your posts above simultaneously which profusely oozes tears and blood from badly damaged heart and scrotum, the cure for which remains unfounded.
Understanding the platform in which its? built for ?Critical Examination of Islam? and its sections ?Quranic Divinity? (For those who question/doubt the authenticity, authorship and relevance of the Scripture) and ?What is the nature of God?? (For those who question/doubt the nature/existence of a Creator.), and taking into consideration the abundance of mundane venomous posts throughout other sections of this forum by the so-called "believers" themselves, imperviously defeats both yours and ?truth?s? cunning, bickering and hate-mongering intentions to begin with. It is nothing more than sheer BURSTS OF RANTS AND GRUNTS, DEVIATED AND FLIP-FLOPPED from grounds up.
Having stated above, the bigotry, discriminatory and inflammatory nature of my first post as proposed becomes moot and a myth, deeply embedded in delusional Islam, Hislam and Mislam. Statement such as, ?His comments are bordering along the lines of our other recently banned member apple pie, who finally attempted to "prove" that Muslims worship the devil? and ?I predict that he'll just continue on this venomous course until his game is played out. There's no use in paddling a sinking ship and it's going down quickly. Take these posts as his last ditch attempt to disrupt the forum as much as possible. We've witnessed it many times before, and I applaud (no pun intended) the karma system for weeding him out?, is a solid proof of one such myth prophesied and the "etiquette is control of the tongue? being shot at from within to proclaim the ?sympathetic? aspects of Islam in order to bring about ?apostasy?, ?chopping of hands? and ?slaughtering necks?. The condemning style and nature of Muslims towards other believers is another major problem emanating from its core tenents. For example, evil-doers, quran-bashers, disbelievers, shaytaan, jinn devils, kafir, etc. The funny part is that many just love to punch violent verses not only towards all other faiths but amongst each other as well, hence condemning and getting condemned with fatwah driven strategies all for Allah's sake. A pragmatic and crystal clear example set by a violent and treacherous evolutionary Islam viewed by World?s Eyes even today. Ofcourse, both the ?sympathetic? and ?violent? verses of quran, is only a fraction of its compiled version in which it speaks.
The crux of the matter lies in the concept of GOD (a mythical one at best), the Allah (locked up at kaba), Muhammad (a revered idol) and the Quran (a revered book), forthright and correctly titled to its respective tenets as Is-lam, His-lam and Mis-lam, which none of the proponet variants of Muslims can deny or ague about, but can only shift course through EXTREME DINIAL. All come from the same sinking boat.
Coming down to the next level of discussion, I am not interested in your flamboyant analysis of mankind?s societal upbringing and advancement via information technology and human morality evolving from primitive stages which an elementary student understands today. Nonetheless, if that is the criteria of concern, then certainly the quran falls short of reason by its very primitive, orthodox and dogmatic laws to a certain degree for which mankind have insofar excelled.
With such a bold and vast leap from historic standpoint by virtue of science, medicine, economy and population growth, and as well as from its dogmatic pagan beliefs, the quranic laws must exercise this inclining change with time and dispose off its weights and measures accordingly. Take the examples of inheritance laws, waiting period for women after divorce (men not mentioned), the merciless Ramadan, punishment for thievery, adultery, abortion, wealth, gambling, alcoholism, ritual prayers, marriage laws, etc., etc., etc., all stemming out from pagan dogmatic and historical sciences. A slightest change, amendment or transformation emanating from any of these ancient laws and other exegetic and analytic reverberations/repercussions, would certainly defeat what is proclaimed, warranted and venerated as Allah?s Absolute Words, thereby a total meltdown and disobedience displayed towards their very revered deities respectively. Just because Allah says so, just because Muhammad said so and just because the Quran says so; is all what is left by the miscreants of Islam, Hislam and Mislam to rely upon with extreme confusion, chaos, prejudice, arrogance and hatred. The God of our creations is a conceptual and mystical concept and is certainly not confined and locked up to become resident of man-made books (such as quran) and lock boxes (such as kaba).
Do a few newly formed Quran Aloners seriously think that they can fool the rest of the world by redefining the historic/ancient words of their alleged ?Allah? to reform and fine-tune a ?religionist Islam?, as and when they please and then take HIS name in vain. Thousands have already taken that step with no effects. Just look at the abundance of various translations and interpretations that roam the earth and perhaps thousands more to come, just to make Islam more and more confused and chaotic. Like it or not, Islam was, is and will remain a pagan idolworshipping religion. One can try their level best, given all the intelligence and wisdom to interpret, the Quran will always remain an ardent ancient man-made book only to be read, understood and reflected upon, just like any other book, nothing else.
SMELL, TOUCH, LISTEN, TASTE, SEE AND PERCEIVE THE REAL COLORFUL ROSE PLANT, NOT THE FAKE PAPER ONES.
I shall now take a deep breath with a sigh of relief and take a long walk out of this forum and into the reality/nature (untroubled kingdom of reason) and aura that surrounds me via which my Way of Life and Path spells out and dictates, as always in its truest essence. Thank you all for your time however generous or cynical and enjoyed conversing with a few. May the ?Lord? guide us all.
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well that was certainly interesting. i take it you agree that every person should be treated with a basic level of respect. And since you are so against "condemning" one another, I take it that you will further refrain from calling Islam a pagan idol worshipping religion and using terms like bleeding scrotum, since most Muslims would consider that a condemnation or slander. And since you are obviously so very much against condemning one another, that will work out just splendidly with the rest of us.
as far as your obvious disdain for the exoteric facets of Islam, I can't say I blame you for that. Muslims have taken the ritual aspect of Islam and forgotten its function and purpose...its only natural for people to eventually stop and ask what the function of those rituals are, and if they serve no functional purpose then to rid ourselves of them. One reaction has been to completely "esoterize" Islam to rid ourselves of this exoteric baggage, which on free-minds is often done through creative linguistic interpretations. You apparently see through this, and rightly so.
I'm sorry that you have no venue for further intelligent study of the matter and would rather just toss out the baby with the bathwater. But best of luck to you.
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Peace Bro Danish
I think your last post was quite interesting. Unfortunately, it falls on deaf ears. Anyone who is an active member of free-minds.org already understands how fatwas, cutting off hands for theft, the strict rigid rules set forth in 'sharia' for inheritance, and stoning -just to name a few of your grievences- is completely baseless in real Islam. Therefore, to throw it in our faces and call it Islam defeats your purpose. We already agree with you. Only we don't believe that this type of "islam" you mentioned should even be called Islam. True Islam is a deen (system/way of life) of peace and harmony with regulations to protect our rights as well as the rights of others. It is a deen for the underdog, the oppressed, the over-burdened and weak. It is a deen for those who stand for what is just and fair, not what is outlandish and barbaric as many sunnis and shias have misconstrued "islam" to be in their heavily-laden hadith based sharia. You make great observations. You just threw it at the wrong people. If you have grievences against quran-only, God-only free-thinkers, I would advise you to first analyse what their stance on issues are to begin with, so that the argument remains relevant.
On another note, it saddens me to see that you have concluded that there is no Supreme Power. I pray you one day find your way back home ... Amen. You seem like a thinker and I'm sure one day you will see the evidence that will prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is a Creator (God-Willing).
Peace All