the last part of 17:78

Samia

Salam all

Ahmed Bahgat wrote

Hello All

The word Quran does not mean reading, this is nonsense, the Arabic word for reading is Qiraa

Quran is the name of Allah last scripture

But it seems that you forgot that you wrote this, then you wrote

, ?Quranahu?, i.e. ?Reciting IT?, i.e. ?Reciting the Quran?,

First, verbs do not necessarily have one verbal noun (qiraa'a is a noun and a verbal noun). The verb "qara'a" has THREE verbal nouns qiraa'a, qar' and qur'aan. Although I am against translating names, hence against translating The Qur'aan, yet this does not mean that the Qur'aan does not mean "the reading" or "the collection" (because qur'aan is a verbal noun of another verb qarana to bring together). Allah would not call His book The Qur'aan for nothing, but in order that whenever we just mention its name, we remember that it's a command that we should read it and contemplate. No wonder that the first revealed verse is "Iqra'".

However, if non-native speakers want to translate its meaning, what is the harm? Don't they translate the attributes of Allah (The Merciful, Allah is Greater...etc). We native speakers were blessed by the needless to translate words; at least we should not frown upon those who want to understand, and thus are far better than us.

And BTW, Shahrour is not an advocate of translating the name of The Qur'aan either. He only explained the meaning, but nowhere in his four books and many articles did he use the name (The Reading) instead of the Qur'aan.

unknownuser

Salam all

Ahmed Bahgat wrote

Hello All

The word Quran does not mean reading, this is nonsense, the Arabic word for reading is Qiraa

Quran is the name of Allah last scripture

But it seems that you forgot that you wrote this, then you wrote

, Quranahu, i.e. Reciting IT, i.e. Reciting the Quran

Hi all

I don?t really get your point, the word Quranahu is another word that referring to the Quran,, i.e. Reciting the Quran, not Reciting the Reading, the second does not make sense

May I ask which reading exactly you are talking about?

And how you suggest that I forgot what I said, if what I said that the word Quran in that verse is not referring to the Quran, it is referring to Reciting the Quran, there are a damir that is referring the Quran, now I don?t get it, have you ever heard that there words with the same exact letters? And why you want to use the meaning of the first word to refer to the damir ?h? ?Al Quran? which is considered a second word btw, you know words in Arabic also consist of one letters

First, verbs do not necessarily have one verbal noun (qiraa'a is a noun and a verbal noun). The verb "qara'a" has THREE verbal nouns qiraa'a, qar' and qur'aan. Although I am against translating names, hence against translating The Qur'aan,

yet this does not mean that the Qur'aan does not mean "the reading"

this is really irrelevant, the word Quran never used in Arabic to refer to the reading, there are another word called Qiraa, but if Allah used it he only used as an action that is done to an entity named Quran, the arabs on the other hand never used Quran to refer ro the word reading, NEVER EVER HEARD OF IT

or "the collection" (because qur'aan is a verbal noun of another verb qarana to bring together). Allah would not call His book The Qur'aan for nothing,

oh yeh we need to know that a book is for read, good point you have

but in order that whenever we just mention its name, we remember that it's a command that we should read it and contemplate. No wonder that the first revealed verse is "Iqra'".

I?m sorry there is also an order to hear it well, would that mean Quran means The hearing?

Do you that verse that orders us just to listen well to it?, and sorry sister, how about those who can?t read Arabic?, not to menti0on those who can?t read at all

The main objective of the Quran is to follow it, not to bloody read it, we know millions who read it and understand nothing in it nor they follow it

However, if non-native speakers want to translate its meaning, what is the harm?

The harm is nothing but deception, that?s all, because Quran to mean reading in Arabic just does not exit, it is a name 100% and when we call it we call it Quran not reading

Don't they translate the attributes of Allah (The Merciful, Allah is Greater...etc).

Not sure if the attributes even translated right, well it is called attributes and possibly it needs translating for non Arabic speakers, however native Arabic speaker don?t even translate the attributes

Now I?m puzzled, if Al Quran is the name of a book in front of their eyes why the hell they need to translate that?

So when I say Quran, everyone knows that it is that book named Quran, not the action called reading, see how flawed it is?

We native speakers were blessed by the needless to translate words; at least we should not frown upon those who want to understand, and thus are far better than us.

Excuse me sister, I?m responding to those who insist on misleading others without any solid knowledge in Arabic, now my duty is to expose those, they donlt want to learn, they only follow their ego

Now please when you say better than us, can you please exclude me from your group?, thanks

And BTW, Shahrour is not an advocate of translating the name of The Qur'aan either.

Good to know that is why I said I may be wrong of you read my comment well

He only explained the meaning,

Names cannot translated, this is bloody common sense, I guess he is trying to be smart but the problem is this

Reading is not associated only with the Quran, rather Hearing as well
Reading is vague and does explicitly refer to the Quran
A book is simply known to a child that it is for reading

Therefore for him to waste his time on that nonsense, is really laughable to be honest, now he should also tell us what Injil, Tourah and zaboor means?

I guess they are names to identify some books, donlt you agree?

but nowhere in his four books and many articles did he use the name (The Reading) instead of the Qur'aan.

Good to know, I thought he does like many who do it hear, thinking they look smart

Samia

Hi all

I don?t really get your point, the word Quranahu is another word that referring to the Quran,, i.e. Reciting the Quran, not Reciting the Reading, the second does not make sense

I don't get your point. Do you mean that "qur'aan" meaning "recite" is only used by Allah, and is not part of the Arabic language? I mean, we should not say that in Arabic "qur'aan" means to recite/read?

I?m sorry there is also an order to hear it well, would that mean Quran means The hearing?

Do you that verse that orders us just to listen well to it?, and sorry sister, how about those who can?t read Arabic?, not to menti0on those who can?t read at all

The main objective of the Quran is to follow it, not to bloody read it, we know millions who read it and understand nothing in it nor they follow it

How can we be ordered to hear? Hear what if no one is already reading it?
7204 "So, when the Qur'aan is recited, listen to it and be silent that you may receive mercy". Listening is dependent on reciting. We are ordered to listen if and when the Qur'aan is recited. We are ordered to read/recite it without any condition.

Those millions you mention do not read the Qur'aan, because they do not have time to, after having read volumes and volumes of heritage books, or if they read at all. And also, how can you follow it if you do not read it? First step read it youy may, or may not follow it. Do not read it and you will definitely not follow it.

Excuse me sister, I?m responding to those who insist on misleading others without any solid knowledge in Arabic, now my duty is to expose those, they donlt want to learn, they only follow their ego

Now please when you say better than us, can you please exclude me from your group?, thanks

Frankly I do not know whom you mean. I do not stereotype people; and those who have no "solid" knowledge of Arabic are the most in need of explaining to them patiently, without being outrageous. If they disturb you, do not respond to them (say good things or say nothing).And yes, they are better than US, whether they sought Islam and chose it (we were born Muslims), or whether they are trying to learn Arabic. Put yourself in their shoes, would you have gone that far? I do not think I would have.

And please keep your nerves cool. No need for the anger that makes you write inappropriate words that do not look like you. We are all trying to understand. No one says that they are the only source of truth.

unknownuser

Hi all

I don?t really get your point, the word Quranahu is another word that referring to the Quran,, i.e. Reciting the Quran, not Reciting the Reading, the second does not make sense

I don't get your point. Do you mean that "qur'aan" meaning "recite" is only used by Allah, and is not part of the Arabic language? I mean, we should not say that in Arabic "qur'aan" means to recite/read?

Good morning

Good that you made sense out of the many typos I had

Exactly, the word Quran never ever taught at Arabic schools to mean Qiraa, how come and they have another word for it?

I?m not saying that there is never two words to mean the same thing what I mean that If it was common before the Quran then I will agree with you, however the word is unique and was chosen by Allah himself, no wonder the Arabs don?t know it and no wonder they still never teach the kids that it means reading, bearing in mind that this is always the case with names, some parents even invent new names ?never known before? for their children

What they teach the kids in arab schools is this, The Quran is the name of the last message from Allah and they should read it as any other book that is only for read really, I don?t think people consider books as a source to make Qaratis

Also in arab schools, Reading is an important subject, and you will never see them calling that subject ?Quran? rather ?Qiraa?

I?m sorry there is also an order to hear it well, would that mean Quran means The hearing?

Do you that verse that orders us just to listen well to it?, and sorry sister, how about those who can?t read Arabic?, not to menti0on those who can?t read at all

The main objective of the Quran is to follow it, not to bloody read it, we know millions who read it and understand nothing in it nor they follow it

How can we be ordered to hear? Hear what if no one is already reading it?

I agree, but what I?m saying is Reading the Quran can?t be for everyone, those who can read Arabic well are the most qualified to read it then they can explain it to the others, what reading will do to you if you don?t understand what you read?

7204 "So, when the Qur'aan is recited, listen to it and be silent that you may receive mercy". Listening is dependent on reciting.

good then reading is not explicitly related to the Quran as a requirement to those who follow it, because others can listen to it and follow it without reading it especially if they don?t know how to read

We are ordered to listen if and when the Qur'aan is recited. We are ordered to read/recite it without any condition.

Of course there is a condition, simply that you understand what you read (Yatadabbar), this is not a comic book

Those millions you mention do not read the Qur'aan, because they do not have time to,

How do you know that?

after having read volumes and volumes of heritage books, or if they read at all. And also,

again, how do you that?

how can you follow it if you do not read it?

by listening to it then seeking knowledge for the meaning from those who have knowledge

First step read it youy may, or may not follow it. Do not read it and you will definitely not follow it.

Again how about those who can?t read, will they miss out and head to hell?

Excuse me sister, I?m responding to those who insist on misleading others without any solid knowledge in Arabic, now my duty is to expose those, they donlt want to learn, they only follow their ego

Now please when you say better than us, can you please exclude me from your group?, thanks

Frankly I do not know whom you mean.

Good, let?s keep it at that then

I do not stereotype people;

Neither do I, my comment was general and not direct to specific persons by name regarding those who manipulate the Arabic meanings

and those who have no "solid" knowledge of Arabic are the most in need of explaining to them patiently,

good, but only if they drop their ego, but see how you answered yourself?, those who don?t know Arabic, how they can read Arabic please?

without being outrageous.

who is outrages, do you mean me?

If they disturb you,

Sorry sister, no one on this web site caused any disturbance to me yet

do not respond to them

well, I?m responding to the public really, or should I say my comments are more to the public, the public must also read the other side of the story and they can make up their mind

(say good things or say nothing).

well, I guess it is up to me to say what I want, however I always say what suits the circumstances when I discuss religions

Please sister, can you save the these lessons, I?m 41 years old father of two, thank you as I don?t need it, but I will pass your advices to mu kids

And yes, they are better than US,

And again, who is us? Are you talking on behalf of all arab Muslims?

If yes, then please take me out of your non sensible statement.

whether they sought Islam and chose it (we wer/e born Muslims),

excuse me, Islam is not by birth

or whether they are trying to learn Arabic.

good if they try, I encourage them to do it however, if you learn new language at old age there will be no way to master its secrets and they will still need the help of a fluent Arabic speaker as I always do with my English

Put yourself in their shoes,

If I do, then I will drop my ego first and seek knowledge from those who have it

would you have gone that far?

I don?t know because I have not been there

I do not think I would have.

Good, thank Allah then that you were born Muslim because it seems if that was not the case you would have gone astray

And please keep your nerves cool.

It is always cool, how do you that it isn?t?

No need for the anger that makes you write inappropriate words that do not look like you.

Sorry sister, what is the inappropriate words exactly that I used?

We are all trying to understand. No one says that they are the only source of truth.

well, others try to manipulate as well, and the na?ve will be lost between these two groups

Salam

warner

Peace be upon you

So we learn from our Arabic learned brothers and sisters that there is no meaning for the word Quran and it is just the name given by God to the last message but may be coincidence, the word is quite similar to the words for ?read? or ?reading? or ?recitation?.

Also , does the Quraan refer to it as the book anywhere ?

Brother Ahmed ,

You keep asking the meaning for injil and zaboor . Although there are no meanings for these words in Arabic, maybe there are meanings for these in the languages they were revealed. Did you check in Hebrew and Aramaic.

ayman

Peace Warner, all,

You keep asking the meaning for injil and zaboor . Although there are no meanings for these words in Arabic, maybe there are meanings for these in the languages they were revealed. Did you check in Hebrew and Aramaic.

The word Injil is generally considered to be borrowed by Arabic from the Greek word , and it literally means "good news". In the great reading, we are told for example that Jesus gave the good news of the future messenger Ahmed (616).

The word "torah" is borrowed by Arabic from Hebrew. While it is wrongly translated into "law", in reality the common noun "torah" in Hebrew literally means "teachings" or "learning".

The word "zabur" is borrowed by Arabic from Sabaic, a South Arabian dialect. This word, as a common noun, means "a written document on soft material". As a proper name, it denotes a kind of South Arabian script called Zabour script, which is a variant of the Musnad script. But while the Musnad script is a monumental script that is used mostly for engraving on solid surfaces such as rock, the Zabour script was used for writing on soft materials.

I don't think that it is a coincidence that the great reading uses a South Arabian word to describe the book of David. I think that most likely David and Solomon were near the kingdom of Saba'a in the region of South Arabia or nearby across the straights of Eden in Ethiopia (the Ethiopic language is in fact one of the South Semitic languages like Sabaic) as opposed to Northern Arabia/Palestine. Interestingly, we are told in the great reading that the Hoopoe came from somewhere not far (2722) and that David and Solomon were in a mountainous region that is rich in iron ore (3410). All this fits with the region of Ethiopia and not Palestine.

At any rate, unfortunately, the above common nouns have lost their meanings and became meaningless labels (i.e., proper names). This is what sectarians have also done to the word "quran". They turned it into a meaningless proper name so that they hide its true meaning. So now even the majority of native Arabic speakers don't know its meaning.

So we learn from our Arabic learned brothers and sisters that there is no meaning for the word Quran and it is just the name given by God to the last message but may be coincidence, the word is quite similar to the words for ?read? or ?reading? or ?recitation?.

Quite the contrary, all the learned brothers and sisters know that the word "quran" has a meaning and it is not just some meaningless proper name.

Sister Samia already kindly pointed out that the word "quran" is a normal part of the Arabic language. It was not an invented proper name that the Arabs never heard before. The intensified form "quraan" (weight fa3lan) is very common in Arabic and there are hundreds (if not thousands) of examples of this form. For example, "sultan" (intense authority), "furqan" (intense separation), etc. This is how an Arab hearing 1778 for the first time 14 centuries ago would have understood it.

Sister Myr already thoughtfully pointed out the fact that the word "quaran" is used in 7517 and 7518 with the addition of the possessive "haa marbouta" ("quraanuh&quot to mean "its reading". This is a clear indisputable fact because "when we have read it follow its Quran" is meaningless nonsense while "when we have read it follow its reading" makes perfect sense.

This fact is evident in that the word "quran" is used in the great reading itself to describe readings other than the one given to us by The God. For example, 1331 is describing a hypothetical reading that is certainly not the one we have. Similarly, 1788 and 1015 use the term "quran" to describe false man-made readings that are certainly not the one we have. Also, 4144 uses the term to describe a hypothetical reading in a foreign language, which is certainly not the one we have.

Also, there are many passages that point to "this reading" ("hatha al-quran&quot to specify it. Such pointing devices would not have been used had the word "quran" been a proper name. For example, see 1037, 123, 179, 1789, 5677, 1741, 619, 1854, 2530, 2776, 3058, 3431, 3927, 4126, 4331, 5921.

There are also many passages that use the word "quran" in the common form, i.e. "a quran". This is further confirms the indisputable fact that "quran" is a common noun. For example, 151, 17106, 3669, 721, 8521, 122, 20113, 3928, 411-3, 4144, 427, 433.

For example, notice how PICKTHAL translates 151

PICKTHAL Alif. Lam. Ra. These are verses of the Scripture and a plain Reading.

He did this because he knows the indisputable fact that "a Quran" is pure nonsense. It is like saying "a Ayman". Such constructs are not used with proper names.

Notice also how all translators translated 1778

017.078
YUSUFALI Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.
PICKTHAL Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.
SHAKIR Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night and the morning recitation; surely the morning recitation is witnessed.

They all translated "quran" as "reading/recitation" except Pickthal. However, Pickthal had to add (the recital of) in parenthesis because he and all translators know for certain the indisputable fact that "the morning's Quran" is pure nonsense. It is just like saying "the morning's Ayman" (or any proper name) it is meaningless gibberish.

Of course the above indisputable facts are not taught in Arabic language lessons at schools in Arab countries. The majority of Arabic language curriculum in Arab countries focuses on mechanical memorization of spoon fed information and discourages critical thinking. So if a native Arabic speaker defies common sense and the above indisputable facts because they are "native Arabic speakers" or "were top Arabic students" then this proves nothing except ignorant arrogance and of course the desperate need for reform in the educational system of Arab countries.

Peace,

Ayman

adley

Salaam Ayman,

I would just like to thank you for the last post, especially on "zabur". D
Keep up the excellent work bro.

=adley=

ayman

Peace brother Adley,

I would just like to thank you for the last post, especially on "zabur".
Keep up the excellent work bro.

You are too kind brother. I don't deserve any credit except for mistakes. If all the brothers and sisters here didn't contribute to the thread and if Ahmed Bahgat didn't ask the question and Warner didn't focus on this important question then I wouldn't have tried to answer. So they deserve more credit. Ultimately, all thanks is due to The God because He guides to the truth.

Peace,

Ayman

warner

Brother Ayman

Peace be upon you

Thank you for the excellent eye opener.

Do you think ?The Recitation? seems a better word than ?Reading? to describe the Quraan since recitation has more emphasis on reciting/reading from memory but also can be from a written document or a book but reading denotes more towards reading a written document than from memeory.

unknownuser

peace

is/are reading/recitation the same thing?

Reading To utter /render aloud; To examine and grasp the meaning of

Recitation To repeat / utter aloud. Key prefix re. The re in reading is not a prefix, its a whole word.

I am just saying that if the arabic says 'reading' translate it that way, if it means 'reciting' translate it that way, but i dont think they are the same

unknownuser

Peace be upon you

Peace bro

So we learn from our Arabic learned brothers and sisters that there is no meaning for the word Quran and it is just the name given by God to the last message

As far as the Arabic language is concerned, the word Quran is NEVER EVER used to represent ?Reading?, we use another word and it is also ?Lugha Arabia Fusha?, this word is ?Qiraa?, it does not look nor sound like Quran

Therefore from Al Quran we can clearly see that it is a title given to this book and surely the word confused the Arabs because it didn?t exist before to represent reading

but may be coincidence, the word is quite similar to the words for ?read? or ?reading? or ?recitation?.

as I stated the word Quran incline reading but never ever means reading

Also , does the Quraan refer to it as the book anywhere ?

Yeh the two words together, ?Quran and Book?

These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes (things) clear;

(1)

See, it is referring to the Quran as a book, I may add that the last part is translated wrong by Y A, because ?Kitab Mubin? does not mean ?a book that makes things clear?, this is 100% wrong, it means ?an obvious book?

Brother Ahmed ,

You keep asking the meaning for injil and zaboor .

Becsuae it is a very important questions and ironically many can?t see the click,

If all three books are sent by Allah, then all three books MUST BE READ , therefore why one book means reading and the other two don?t mean reading?

Unless someone will come and say ?Injil?= ?Torah?=?Zaboor?=?Quran?= Reading

Do you get my point bro?

Well, it does not make sense that one of the messages of Allah is for reading and the others are not, it is just ridiculous especially all messages came on the form of a book, and a child knows very well that a book is for a read.

Although there are no meanings for these words in Arabic,

Possibly they mean ?Reaing?, I really don?t know that is why I?m asking those why they don?t seek the meaning of these other books names?

maybe there are meanings for these in the languages they were revealed. Did you check in Hebrew and Aramaic.

No I didn?t because I speak non of these languages, so I can be fooled easily, however if anyone found the meanings, I?m crossing my fingers that they also mean reading and if this is the case I will concede that Quran means reading

however if they don?t mean reading then I rest my case for good

Cheers

unknownuser

The word Injil is generally considered to be borrowed by Arabic from the Greek word , and it literally means "good news". In the great reading, we are told for example that Jesus gave the good news of the future messenger Ahmed (616).

The word "torah" is borrowed by Arabic from Hebrew. While it is wrongly translated into "law", in reality the common noun "torah" in Hebrew literally means "teachings" or "learning".

The word "zabur" is borrowed by Arabic from Sabaic, a South Arabian dialect. This word, as a common noun, means "a written document on soft material". As a proper name, it denotes a kind of South Arabian script called Zabour script, which is a variant of the Musnad script. But while the Musnad script is a monumental script that is used mostly for engraving on solid surfaces such as rock, the Zabour script was used for writing on soft materials.

Salam Ayman

so the three words "Injil, Torah, and Zaboor" don't mean reading,

how this can make sense bro, aren't they also books sent to us by Allah for reading?

or the people of the past didn't need to reed these books from Allah?

Cheerts

warner

Peace be upon you

I was wondering whether there is a difference between the earlier revelations ( Zabur, Torah and Injil ) and the Quraan, with relation to Quraan being a book. Followers of messages other than the Quraan are referred to as ?people of the book?.

I believe according to the below verses there is a marked difference between the meaning of words Zabur, Torah , Injil and Quraan . Also according to these verses all the revelations do not have to be related to reading or reciting as the Quraan.

Zabur/Psalms - David

21 105

Yusuf Ali Before this We wrote in the Psalms after the Message (given to Moses) My servants the righteous shall inherit the earth."

Wa laqad katabna_ fiz zabu_ri mim ba'diz zikri an nal arda yaritsuha_ iba_diyas sa_lihu_n

Torah - Moses

7 145

Yusuf Ali And We ordained laws for him in the tablets in all matters both commanding and explaining all things (and said) "take and hold these with firmness and enjoin thy people to hold fast by the best in the precepts soon shall I show you the homes of the wicked (how they lie desolate)."

Wa katabna_ lahu_ fil alwa_hi min kulli syai'im mau'izataw wa tafsilal likulli syai'(in), fa khuzha_ bi quwwatiw wa'mur qaumaka ya'khuzu_ bi ahsaniha_, sa urikum da_ral fa_siqin(a).

7 154

Yusuf Ali When the anger of Moses was appeased he took up the tablets in the writing thereon was guidance and mercy for such as fear their Lord.

Wa lamma_ sakata 'am mu_sal gadabu akhazal alwa_h(a), wa fi nuskhatiha_ hudaw wa rahmatul lillazina hum lirabbihim yarhabu_n(a).

Injil/Gospel - Jesus

3 48

Yusuf Ali "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom the Law and the Gospel.

Wa yu'allimuhul kita_ba wal hikmata wat taura_ta wal injil(a).

Do above verses show that zabur , torah and injil were revealed in different ways than the Quraan ? ( The Quraan commands in 961 ? Read in the name of thy lord? )

Also in some translations Kitab is translated as law of decrees or law.
Even in 348 above kitab is mentioned separately other than hikmah/wisdom, torah and the gospel. So what does Kitab mean in the above verse?

Suhuf and kitab

87 18

Yusuf Ali And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelations)
Ina ha_za_ lafis suhufil u_la_

87 ; 19

Yusuf Ali The Books of Abraham and Moses.
Suhufi ibra_hima wa mu_sa_

Is Suhuf another word for book or is there a different meaning to kitab ?

warner

Peace be upon you

I raised a question earlier between reading and recitation.

Also, does the Quraan have to be a book?

Although the form of being a physical book is important for preserving the message the unique feature about the Quraan is, it can be memorized . There are 4 year olds and 100 year olds who will recite the whole Quraan word to word from memory. There are millions who memorized the Quraan in such way from the time it was revealed to date. It must be one of the ways how the last message is preserved by God . Most non Muslims do not know this feature and they will be indeed surprised to see thousands of 4 year olds reciting the whole Quraan word to word by memory. I believe other religious books do not have a feature of memorizing. Do you think that there is a connection between memorizing reciting and the name ?Quraan? given to the last message?

I believe the Quraan does not have to be described as a book like the earlier revelations. Most of us read the Quraan on-line and that is not in the form of a physical book. Also in Tape, MP3 format, CD or any other storage, physical , electronic or in virtual or human memory the Quraan can exist in the same way it was reveled.

What ever the form it may exist we are instructed to read it and may be this feature makes it different from other revelations by its use and its preservation. And this I belive can be the reason zabur=Injil=Torah does not not have to mean read or "the Recitation"

unknownuser

Peace be upon you

I raised a question earlier between reading and recitation.

Also, does the Quraan have to be a book?

Although the form of being a physical book is important for preserving the message the unique feature about the Quraan is, it can be memorized . There are 4 year olds and 100 year olds who will recite the whole Quraan word to word from memory. There are millions who memorized the Quraan in such way from the time it was revealed to date. It must be one of the ways how the last message is preserved by God . Most non Muslims do not know this feature and they will be indeed surprised to see thousands of 4 year olds reciting the whole Quraan word to word by memory. I believe other religious books do not have a feature of memorizing. Do you think that there is a connection between memorizing reciting and the name Quraan given to the last message?

I believe the Quraan does not have to be described as a book like the earlier revelations. Most of us read the Quraan on-line and that is not in the form of a physical book. Also in Tape, MP3 format, CD or any other storage, physical , electronic or in virtual or human memory the Quraan can exist in the same way it was reveled.

What ever the form it may exist we are instructed to read it and may be this feature makes it different from other revelations by its use and its preservation. And this I belive can be the reason zabur=Injil=Torah does not not have to mean read or "the Recitation"

well

a book does not have to be a physical book, it can be a few papers with things written on it, these few papers can also be viewed on anything like a monitor, i.e. it still a book, i.e. things written on papers, it does not matter how you read these papers even if you read it in your dreams, it still a book "Maktoob"

cheers

ayman

Peace Warner, Imran, all,

Do you think ?The Recitation? seems a better word than ?Reading? to describe the Quraan since recitation has more emphasis on reciting/reading from memory but also can be from a written document or a book but reading denotes more towards reading a written document than from memeory.

I think that "reading" is a more correct translation. In chapter 96 we hear the command "iqraa" (read) followed by saying that the Lord taught with the pen.

Interestingly, Sunnis and Shias believe that the prophet was illiterate when chapter 96 was descended. There is a Hadith that describes this event as the prophet being asked to "iqraa" three times and every time he responds that he can't "iqraa". Now this Abbassid era fabricated Hadith is of course completely irrelevant to what really happened but interestingly it inadvertently gives us insights into how the Arabs understood the word "iqraa" during the Abbassid era when the Hadith was produced. Illiterate people can easily recite from memory so the point of the Hadith is not that the prophet didn't know how to speak from memory. The point is that he supposedly didn't know how to read a written text. This linguistic nugget of information is about the only useful data one can glean from the Hadith.

By the way, Chapter 96 is directed to all of us.

I hope that this answered your question.

Peace,

Ayman

warner

Peace

I guess I missed something in my earlier post.

In 21105, 7145 and 7154 wa katabna/ we wrote and also the written tablets indicate physical books or written documents were given to David and Moses. 348 Indicates Jesus was taught by God the book , wisdom, torah and injil.

Whereas the Quraan was "read" to the prophet by the Angel ( although I am not sure whether the Quraan says this or just inspired) but Muhammad was not given a written book or tablet different from the revelation of zabur torah .

Samia

Salaam all

We know that Arabic is founded on a "root system", meaning that many words would be derived from this root according to a specific pattern to indicate if the new word is a verb, name of a place , verbal noun, noun..etc. The root is usually a noun.

The original root/word for kataba is "kutba", a device used by bedouins to lock the nostrils of a she-camel so it won't sniff on new borne camels other than hers; so the original meaning is to link things together, hence the word kitaba, which links letters to each other. Kitaab is written words that bring about meanings linked to one subject. Maktab is the noun of place that joins worker on one assignment (office as in post office; information office, health office...etc) or a place where you write/join letters together (desk). Maktoub is the passive participle (written). Kateeba in an army is a unit of soldiers designated for a specific armoury (batallion; regiment..)

In his book "The Book and the Qur'aan", Dr. Shahrour states that The Book as used in the Qur'aan is not a synonym for "The Qur'aan". It designates verses that are linked to the same subject Law. Previous prophets were given "kitaabs", but definitely not the Qur'aan, in which they also had Devine Law.

Notice to whom the Qur'aan was addressed and to whom The Book was addressed from these two verses

22 "That Book, no doubt, has in it guidance to the pious/righteous
2185 ....when the Qur'aan was revealed as guidance for mankind

Some Arab tribes read the word Quraan without hamza, referring it to the root (gaf re nuun) meaning to join together, understanding that The Book vesres and the Qur'aan verses are combined in one sahiifa. Sahiifa means book as we generally understand, and as the Qur'aan used it.

And God is the Most Knowledgeable.

ayman

Salam Ahmed,

so the three words "Injil, Torah, and Zaboor" don't mean reading,
how this can make sense bro, aren't they also books sent to us by Allah for reading?

All the meanings are related and they are all books. There are many passages in the great reading that describe its message as good news ("bushra&quot exactly like the meaning of "injil" (for example 297).

Similarly, the great reading contains "teachings" or "learning" just like the meaning of "torah". Notice that in 544 we are told that the "torah" (teachings) have light and guidance. The descriptions of "light" and "guidance" are similarly used to describe the great reading.

Now the description of "zabour" is very interesting because in ancient Arabia there were different scripts used for monumental inscriptions on rock than for writing on soft material such as parchment. Monumental inscriptions were used for commemorative writings that people don't read on day to day basis. On the other hand, the soft writing materials were used for everyday affairs such as business contracts, letters, and literature. In Chapter 96, we are told to read what The God taught by the "pen". We are also told that had the sea been "ink" and the trees "pens", then they would have been exhausted before The God's words. All this is indicating that similar to the "zabour", the great reading was also written on soft material that people use in every day affairs and is highly accessible for reading. It was not written as a monumental inscription for mere religious display.

or the people of the past didn't need to reed these books from Allah?

As you see above, all the meanings of "injil, torah, and zaboor" are related to the great reading and have similar properties as the great reading. We shouldn't repeat the mistakes of the people in the past who lost those meanings by transforming them into meaningless proper names.

For example, by transforming "injeel" into a meaningless proper name Christians have transformed Jesus from a "bearer of good news" (i.e., a messenger) into a son of god.

Now sectarians are doing the same thing with the great reading. By transforming it into a meaningless proper name they have made an idol out of it. They claim that it is "uncreated". They take it as a protector and hang it on their walls to ward evil while The God is the only protector.

We should trust in The God and in that He doesn't use words haphazardly. He chose to describe this book using the intensified noun form of qra' for a meaningful reason. It isn't just a meaningless label.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Samia,

We know that Arabic is founded on a "root system", meaning that many words would be derived from this root according to a specific pattern to indicate if the new word is a verb, name of a place , verbal noun, noun..etc. The root is usually a noun.

The original root/word for kataba is "kutba", a device used by bedouins to lock the nostrils of a she-camel so it won't sniff on new borne camels other than hers; so the original meaning is to link things together, hence the word kitaba, which links letters to each other. Kitaab is written words that bring about meanings linked to one subject. Maktab is the noun of place that joins worker on one assignment (office as in post office; information office, health office...etc) or a place where you write/join letters together (desk). Maktoub is the passive participle (written). Kateeba in an army is a unit of soldiers designated for a specific armoury (batallion; regiment..)

The word kitab, 'book, letter', is actually of Aramaic origin. It is mentioned in Lihyanite inscriptions (W. Caskel, Lihyan und Lihyanisch) and this root is also attested in the name of the North Arabian deity Alkutbay/Hanaktab. Alkutbay was the Arabian scribe deity, like Nabu in Mesopotamia.

I think that the meaning of "joining" letters to make words and so on is certainly original and valid. However, given that Aramaic and Lihyanite are older than Arabic, I doubt that the Arab bedouin meaning is the "original meaning". You have to be careful not to fall into the trap of late Abbasid era linguists who romanticized bedouin live and attributed anything about Arabic to them. Those same linguists believed that Classical Arabic existed since the beginning of time and that ancient people such as Abraham and Ishmael spoke Classical Arabic.

In his book "The Book and the Qur'aan", Dr. Shahrour states that The Book as used in the Qur'aan is not a synonym for "The Qur'aan". It designates verses that are linked to the same subject Law. Previous prophets were given "kitaabs", but definitely not the Qur'aan, in which they also had Devine Law.
Notice to whom the Qur'aan was addressed and to whom The Book was addressed from these two verses
22 "That Book, no doubt, has in it guidance to the pious/righteous
2185 ....when the Qur'aan was revealed as guidance for mankind

The forethoughtful (&#1606 is a sub-category of people. Certainly, we know from empirical observation that not all people get any guidance from all or any part of the great reading. 22 further clarifies 2185.

I think that Shahroor is straining to find meaning because he takes "quran" to be a meaningless proper name. Had he used a dictionary and looked up the word and saw that it is the intensified noun "reading" (or more accurately "intense reading&quot then everything would have been cleat to him. Of course, the relationship between "book" and "reading" is crystal clear and indisputable to anyone who has read a book.

Some Arab tribes read the word Quraan without hamza, referring it to the root (gaf re nuun) meaning to join together, understanding that The Book vesres and the Qur'aan verses are combined in one sahiifa.

This is the first time that I hear this but I wouldn't be surprised if it is mentioned by some Classical Arabic dictionary. As a result of the classical linguists' unrealistic view of the bedouins, dictionaries have many such bizarre etymologies.

For example, some classical linguists suggest that the word "quru'a" (menses) in 2228 is the plural of "quran". Of course, the plural "quru'a" in 2228 is most likely to be unrelated to Q-R-'A but is more likely to be related to the root Q-R-W

Here is what another Lexicon said

(&#1615

The word "qrw" signifies a "7awdh"/sink/basin/bowl where liquid is gathered. Interestingly, "7awdh" also means pelvis. The pelvis creates the basin of the lower abdominal cavity. The closely related word "7aydh" is used to mean menses. Hence, "quru'a"/menses in 2228 is likely to be the plural of "qrw" and of course its root Q-R-W is a different root than Q-R-'A.

Sahiifa means book as we generally understand, and as the Qur'aan used it.

Yes, the word "sahifa" is attested several times in South Arabian inscriptions, in Sabaic, several times in Qatabanian and mostly frequently in Minaean inscriptions. The word "sahifa" derives from the South Semitic root shf, which means "to write, write down, inscribe". So a "sahifa" is something "written down", i.e. a document.

And God is the Most Knowledgeable.

Indeed, The God is the most knowledgeable. This is why we should trust in Him and in that He doesn't use words haphazardly. Shahroor should trust in that The God uses the word "quran"/reading for a reason and that it is not a meaningless label. He should take the meaning at face value (reading) and not make it a meaningless label that divides the book haphazardly.

Peace,

Ayman