The Plot - Adam story revisited
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Peace Saima, Myr
It wont take long if you read the creation plot, I hope you will understand better than this.
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Salaam Samia,
First who says that Adam is a name? Who gave him this name? Allah did not say that He created a person and called him "Adam".
197 "O Zakariyya! We give you the glad tidings of a son whose name is Yahia. We have given this name to none before".
345 "..Allah gives you the glad tidings of a word whose name will be al- Maseeh Isa ibn Mariam".
So, Allah tells us when He gives someone a name.
How do you understand verse 1958 then?
1958 THESE WERE some of the prophets upon whom God bestowed His blessings - of the seed of Adam and of those whom We caused to be borne with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel and among those whom We had guided and elected; whenever the messages of the Most Gracious were conveyed unto them, they would fall down , prostrating themselves and weeping.
Secondly
711" And surely we created you and then gave you shape, then We said to the angels "Prostrate to Adam..."
Adam is but us!
Please read the verse 1958 above. IMHO, "Adam is but us" is not in agreement with 1958.
Wassalam,
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Salaam Ahmed
Salam Sister Samia
I hope that you do not take this personal,
There is no reason for me to do as such and I believe there should be no reason for you to think as such
as I noticed that many of my comments are on your postings. The good thing is I do enjoy your postings.
Thank you sister and I hope you comment more
The bad thing is I do not comment on what I agree with.
The important point sister is not agreeing or not, all you will see me asking for is, does it make sense or not?, so I hope you comment and tell me if it akes sense or not you don?t have to agree with it btw.
First who says that Adam is a name?
Allah, and if you look in the verse above you will see his name mentioned just before Nuh, but in many other verses the word Adam can?t mean anything else other than a person name
Who gave him this name?
According to the Quran, it has to be Allah
Allah did not say that He created a person and called him "Adam".
I believe He did just that, He created a person then introduced him to the angels under the name Adam, therefore it has to be Allah who called him Adam
197 "O Zakariyya! We give you the glad tidings of a son whose name is Yahia. We have given this name to none before".
345 "..Allah gives you the glad tidings of a word whose name will be al- Maseeh Isa ibn Mariam".
So, Allah tells us when He gives someone a name.
Well if you look again, you will see that message was for humans regarding a new born baby who was about to come, in the case of Adam there was no message to any humans because non existed at the time, in addition to that you can?t compare the two incidents because the first was somewhere else other than earth while the second was on earth
However, Allah does not need to tell us that He named that person ?Adam? in the manner as He did with Yahya, because in reality He already did
For example
I name my child whatever name, when someone ask me what it my child name, I say this
Deen
I don?t say it, ?I named him Deen?, unless the question was specific and required that answer, in the case of Allah, He was not asked that question and in both cases Yahya and Adam, the information was volunteerly said by Him, so in effect the way He introduced Adam to the Angels means that He named him Adam, do you get my point?, I think it is a bit confusing
Secondly
711" And surely we created you and then gave you shape, then We said to the angels "Prostrate to Adam..."
Adam is but us!
It can?t be because us is ?Bani Adam?, i.e. the ones who came from Adam including his mate, now you missed 711 because it uses something in the Balagha called iltifat, i.e. the subject in hand totally changed into another subject, the word Thumma, does not always mean a future event to come after another event, in fact the Quran used it in different ways many times, one of the ways is the next event is actually before the first event and this mean Iltifat i.e. totally changing direction into another story that may or may not be related, in here the first event is directed to us regarding ?Khalqnakum thumma Sawrankum?, in fact you should notice that Sawrankum is before Khawnakum ?logically speaking? because Al Khalaq is the completion of what you create, not just shaping it, but it was not stated ?Sawrankum thumma Khalqnakum , therefore the second event may not be related or the two events may not be in order even if the word ?Thumma? is between, the use of Thumma to mean ?MOREOVER? was evident in the verse of the 6 days of creation, therefore 711 should be translated as follow
711" And surely we created you moreover gave you shape, moreover We said to the angels "Prostrate to Adam..."
Now before you pick on a very tough verse ?grammatically speaking?, why not apply your logic on this simple verse
Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, moreover said to him, Be, and he was.
(59)
-> How come Jesus is US?, also the word Thumma is there to ponder about, how Allah created Jesus ?THUMMA? said to him ?Be and he was??, Allah somewhere else told us that anything He wants to happen will happen by the word ?BE?, including creation for sure, see how the word THUMMA can mean ?Moreover?
And relate to them the story of the two sons of Adam with truth when they both offered an offering, but it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. He said I I will most certainly slay you. (The other) said Allah only accepts from those who guard (against evil).
(27)
-> Can you please tell me who are the two sons of US mentioned above?
Thirdly Which verse says that "Eve" was created from "Adam"?
41 but the verse didn?t say her name was Eve, it only said ?his wife? or ?his partner? or ?his mate?
Forthly If "Adam" was in "Paradise", how could Iblis seduce him with infinite wealth and immortality?
Not sure how you want me to find answer for that question?, well, Allah clearly told us that Iblis is very clever in seduction, can?t you accept Allah witnessing regarding Iblis and his progeny?
How did "Adam" know about poverty,
Not sure if he knew about poverty, how did you know that sister?
need and death if he was in "Paradise"?
well, Allah never told Adam that he is not going to die in there, so not sure what is your question reagarding death?
"Janna" is used in the Qur'aan for big garden, forest. As for "ahbiTuu", it was also said to the Israelites to "AhbiTuu Egypt", to descend from a better place "on Earth" to a lesser one "on Earth".
so?
Are you saying that the Jannah Adam and his mate were in is not the real paradise promised on the JD?
Fine, it is a valid conjecture, also the jannah that they were in is a high place on earth, is also a valid conjecture but for me, I really careless where it was
And lastly, the Qur'aan tells us that "Adam" was the one who was seduced by Iblis, and was the one who repented, then why was "Eve" punished with him?
Men!!I thinks sister Myr answered this question well
Now for the punishment, as I said it was not a punishment because Adam was destined to earth before he was created , it was a plot to teach Adam ?the first prophet? and to expose Iblis, a very important and vital lesson, so it may appeared to Adam and his mate that they were punished but I?m sure they quickly realized that they were destined to earth from the first place indeed as 230 told us, now going there with that lesson is far better than going there with nothing, this is for the benefit of all humanity and Adam was the one that got the blame while the fact of the matter Adam is one of the a beloved humans to Allah as Allah told us and he is the only human that Allah created using His own hands
Take care Sister
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Salaam all
My understanding from the Quran based on verses 720 to 722 is that Ibliss seduced both of them, that is, Adam and his "mate" (zawjattuhu). Verse 720 mentions "fa wass'wassa LAHUMA" (so he(Ibliss)whispered to BOTH of them)
You are right. But verse 20120/121 says " And the shaitaan whispered to him, saying O Adam! Shall I lead you to the try of Eternity and a kingdom that will never waste away? *Then they both ate from it.."
In fact the verses discussing the Creation mix between the singular and the dual, which would either look like inconsistency if we think of Adam as a specific person, or they look quite logical and of a very high linguistic style if we look at Adam in the singular as "humankind" and the plural as "both genders" (as a reminder that the masculine in "Adam" is a generic one not a real one).
1958 THESE WERE some of the prophets upon whom God bestowed His blessings - of the seed of Adam and of those whom We caused to be borne with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel and among those whom We had guided and elected; whenever the messages of the Most Gracious were conveyed unto them, they would fall down , prostrating themselves and weeping.
How do you understand verse 1958 then?
That's interesting! Since ALL should be the seed of Adam, according to the general understanding, I would say here that there were more than one Adam seeds of Adam 1, seeds of those who were in Noah Arc (Adam 2) and descendants of Abraham (from Adam 3)!!And maybe more.
When I said (Adam is but us) I meant "us humans" not a chronological us "now".
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Salaam Samia,
That's interesting! Since ALL should be the seed of Adam, according to the general understanding, I would say here that there were more than one Adam seeds of Adam 1, seeds of those who were in Noah Arc (Adam 2) and descendants of Abraham (from Adam 3)!!And maybe more.
When I said (Adam is but us) I meant "us humans" not a chronological us "now".
But in the very same verse Noah and Abraham are real names, so why should Adam be understood differently?
1770 NOW, INDEED, We have conferred dignity on the children of Adam, and borne them over land and sea, and provided for them sustenance out of the good things of life, and favoured them far above most of Our creation
512 AND, INDEED, God accepted a solemn pledge from the children of Israel when We caused twelve of their leaders to be sent . And God said "Behold, I shall be with you! If you are constant in prayer, and spend in charity, and believe in My apostles and aid them, and offer up unto God a goodly loan, I will surely efface your bad deeds and bring you into gardens through which running waters flow. But he from among you who, after this, denies the truth, will indeed have strayed from the right path!"
Israel is a real name, isn't it? Why should Adam be "unreal" name? Or do you also believe that Israel is not a real name?
Wassalam,
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Salam Ahmed
However, Allah does not need to tell us that He named that person ?Adam? in the manner as He did with Yahya, because in reality He already did
It is not whether Allah needs or not; He needed not tell us that He named Yahia or Isa, but He did so that we undersatnd when He names a human He would tell us and we should not just presume..
because it uses something in the Balagha called iltifat, i.e. the subject in hand totally changed into another subject
There is iltifat here, which confirms my explanation Iltifat is repeating a word you mentioned in the beginning of the verse (or the sentence), and has nothing to do with "totally changing a subject" as you mention. In this verse you....Adam (same word/meaning). Thumma is not necessarily a tool for iltifat.
And how did the subject here totally changed into another subject?
regarding ?Khalqnakum thumma Sawrankum?, in fact you should notice that Sawrankum is before Khawnakum ?logically speaking? because Al Khalaq is the completion of what you create, not just shaping it
Allah created (khalaqa) the "bashar neanderthal", then He refind this creature "sawwaa" (in a way to prepare him for the next stage), then He blew into him through Gabriel and so we have the insaan Adam us.All this is done her on Earth in a span of maybe million years. Thumma for Allah is timelss, but still indicates succession.
Thumma to mean ?MOREOVER? was evident in the verse of the 6 days of creation, therefore 711 should be translated as follow
Thumma meaning moreover is usually followed by "anna" and comes in the beginning of a sentence. If this does not apply to the verse of the 6 days, then you should try to understand it in another way. If it does, there is no logic saying that it should apply to this one as well.
Now before you pick on a very tough verse ?grammatically speaking?, why not apply your logic on this simple verse
What is "grammatically speakin"? Picking on a verse or a tough verse?
Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, moreover said to him, Be, and he was.
(59)
-> How come Jesus is US
And how come Jesus is Adam? The verse does not say he is, it says like.
also the word Thumma is there to ponder about, how Allah created Jesus ?THUMMA? said to him ?Be and he was??, Allah somewhere else told us that anything He wants to happen will happen by the word ?BE?, including creation for sure, see how the word THUMMA can mean ?Moreover?
I will start at the end What is the meaning of "I created you from dust; moreover, I gave the ordr for your creation"?
This verse is comparing Jesus with Adam. It is telling that they were both of the same origin (dust; i.e. Jesus has no devine origin); they both were naturally conceived from two parents (otherwise there is no grounds for comparison). Be and you are is used for all creation. But there is one "be and you are" which is exclusive to both Jesus and Adam (which could also mean that Jesus is not different from us ). This (be and it is) is the order of the language being blown into the neanderthal to be insaan and into Jesus to speak while being delivered. Be a speaking bashar; be a speaking newborn.
And relate to them the story of the two sons of Adam with truth when they both offered an offering, but it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. He said I I will most certainly slay you. (The other) said Allah only accepts from those who guard (against evil).
(27)
-> Can you please tell me who are the two sons of US mentioned above?
They are two humans; descendants of Adam. Ibn in Arabic does not mean son; in the Qur''an it is usually used for descendants, adopted children..etc. Walad is son.
Forthly If "Adam" was in "Paradise", how could Iblis seduce him with infinite wealth and immortality?
Not sure how you want me to find answer for that question?, well, Allah clearly told us that Iblis is very clever in seduction, can?t you accept Allah witnessing regarding Iblis and his progeny?
My question was not how Iblis seduced him, but about the nature of seduction. If Adam was in Pradise, why would he be seduced with things that are already there in Paradise? You seduce people with things that are difficult for them to get.
Quote from Samia
How did "Adam" know about poverty,Not sure if he knew about poverty, how did you know that sister?
Quote from Samia
need and death if he was in "Paradise"?well, Allah never told Adam that he is not going to die in there, so not sure what is your question reagarding death?
I hope now you got my point. You did not understand these questions because you misunderstood my previous question about the nature of seduction.
and thanks
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Salam Ahmed
Salam sister Samia
It is not whether Allah needs or not; He needed not tell us that He named Yahia or Isa, but He did so that we undersatnd when He names a human He would tell us and we should not just presume..
But He did named him Adam,
- He first told them He will create bashar on earth
- Then He introduced that bashar to them as Adam
- Then Told them to prostrate to Adam
Can you please explain how Allah introduced him as Adam to the Angels?
There is iltifat here, which confirms my explanation Iltifat is repeating a word you mentioned in the beginning of the verse (or the sentence), and has nothing to do with "totally changing a subject" as you mention. In this verse you....Adam (same word/meaning). Thumma is not necessarily a tool for iltifat.
I?m not saying Thumma is a tool for Iltifat, what I;m saying is what came after Thumma is the Iltifat i.e another subject, the Quran used this style numerous times, I can show you many examples if you wish
And I never heard that iltifat is repeating a word, where did you get this from sister?
And how did the subject here totally changed into another subject?
The subject before Thumma was about all of us, then the subject after Thumma was only about Adam
Allah created (khalaqa) the "bashar neanderthal",
then He refind this creature "sawwaa"Khalaq Bashara, means the Bashra has been already made, priot to that when it was like mud, Allah sawaha to make it look like a human then the soul was blown into it and we have a bashar that is just been created
(in a way to prepare him for the next stage),
sorry, you mean death or what?
then He blew into him through Gabriel
not sure about that really, did Allah said that he blew into him through Gabril?
And who is him?
Is it Adam as a dead body without a soul?
If yes then Allah has SAWA the dead body before it became a bashar, see
and so we have the insaan
yeh, it is called bashar as well
Adam
I Agree
us.
again sister, well, who is Bani US then?
All this is done her on Earth in a span of maybe million years.
Did Allah say that or you?
Thumma for Allah is timelss, but still indicates succession.
Hmmm, timeless and succession !!, I don?t get it sister
Thumma meaning moreover is usually followed by "anna" and comes in the beginning of a sentence.
Not really, because your understanding will create a contradiction regarding the 6 days creation
If this does not apply to the verse of the 6 days, then you should try to understand it in another way.
Not just these verses, it will only create a contradiction but I?m open to listen to your understanding that will clear that contradiction, however there are many other verses that surely Thumma means ?MOREOVER?
If it does, there is no logic saying that it should apply to this one as well.
I Agree but that also works for you, because if it can be understood in two meanings then there is nothing that says your meaning should apply
What is "grammatically speakin"? Picking on a verse or a tough verse?
Using the word Thamma to only means succession, however you totally ignoring that it can also mean moreover, and btw I can show in the quran that ?Thumma Anna? will mean ?Then?, so you can?t really say that MOREOVER is only represented by ?Thumma Anna?, because ?Thumma Anna? can also mean ?Then?
And how come Jesus is Adam? The verse does not say he is, it says like.
Fine, I meant Jesus is Like Adam
Now how come Jesus is like US?
He actually is not like us because not all humans are prophets, but Adam and Jesus were prophets, don?t you agree?
I will start at the end What is the meaning of "I created you from dust; moreover, I gave the ordr for your creation"?
Sorry, what are you trying to do?, I got lost here, can you refer me to Arabic words instead if you know Arabic?
This verse is comparing Jesus with Adam. It is telling that they were both of the same origin (dust; i.e. Jesus has no devine origin); they both were naturally conceived from two parents (otherwise there is no grounds for comparison).
Sister samia, Jesus was conceived from a woman only, Adam was from non, Adam mate from man only and US ?Bani Adam? from man and a woman
Can you please prove from the Quran that Isa came from a man and a woman?
Can you also prove from the Quran that Adam mate came from a and a woman?
Be and you are is used for all creation.
Wrong, it is used for any thing ?Shai?
But there is one "be and you are" which is exclusive to both Jesus and Adam (which could also mean that Jesus is not different from us ).
How it it was exclusive to both if Allah said ?Shai?, i.e. any thing He want to be He will use the word BE
This (be and it is) is the order of the language being blown into the neanderthal to be insaan and into Jesus to speak while being delivered. Be a speaking bashar; be a speaking newborn.
Sorry, I could not make any sense of the above
They are two humans; descendants of Adam.
Two humans descendents from all of us?
That surely does not make any sense
Ibn in Arabic does not mean son; in the Qur''an it is usually used for descendants, adopted children..etc. Walad is son.
Sister please don?t give me this non sense, I was going to show many Quran verse that clearly show how wrong you are but I?m not going to waste my time really because you sound like one of those who are locked on some sort of manipulating the Arabic words, but let me give you a small hint
Isa Ibn Mariam
Do you know what the above means sister?
Oh yeh, Isa the decendent of Mariam
My question was not how Iblis seduced him, but about the nature of seduction. If Adam was in Pradise, why would he be seduced with things that are already there in Paradise? You seduce people with things that are difficult for them to get.
Again another non sensible comment that id really used by date dear sister, I used to hear that about 20 years ago, I swear with Allah,
Well, at least Allah never told Adam that he will not die there, now Iblis used that to seduce him, i.e. he used eternity to seduce him
Now you agreed that the paradise they were there is not the one on the JD, therefore why you assume that life there was eternal while Allah never told us that about the place Adam was in?
need and death if he was in "Paradise"?
eternity was never offered to Adam on that place, this is false by you, therefore he must have known about death
I hope now you got my point.
Yeh I do, you are an evolutionist, good luck with that
You did not understand these questions because you misunderstood my previous question about the nature of seduction.
Sorry, but don?t worry about it any more sister
and thanks
no worries
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Salaam Ahmed
I believe that this
Jesus was conceived from a woman only, Adam was from non
and this
you are an evolutionist, good luck with that
show that we disagree on the priniciple; so let's agree to disagree on the details, too.
Salaam
Salam Ssister samia
sure sister, let's disagree on the creation
we are still brother and sister, right?
Cheers
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Peace all,
Sister Samia, very good points!
Ahmed, Satan was or became a jinn. in both case , He is not only the deceiver but also VERY hidden from our sense of recognition! It creeps and whispers within us! The character chosen in your film is very easy to detect! See if you can improve!
Whether Adam was a person or an allegory IS IRRELEVANT!
We as childeren of Adam !! undergo the same mental process as Adam in our life!
Satan deceives us in attaining the assurance of eternity for our false SELF and its lowly desires. (The ego.)
peace,
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Salaam Andy
But in the very same verse Noah and Abraham are real names, so why should Adam be understood differently?
He shouldn't be understood differently if he was named by his parents as were Noah and Abraham; which will still make him NOT the first man on Earth.
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Al Quran never tells first man, firsn buffalo, first planet, first donut