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  4. Is it a fictitious story?

Is it a fictitious story?

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    prashant_kumar
    wrote on last edited by
    #15

    Thanks Alen and nabster and others.

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      unknownuser
      wrote on last edited by
      #16

      Peace

      Besides miracles are not usually part of the Natural Laws, Allah uses them to demonstrate that having made the Laws Himself, He is not bound by them as we are, so even studying them might be pointless.

      Excellent point! This reminds me of the Christian dogma which states that, God's Law that He decreed upon Himself was to punish His creation if they sinned, but He also has a Law upon Himself to be Merciful to His creation. In order to not break His first law, He came down in human form to be the human sacrifice and die for His creation's sins. Now if that wasn't confusing... -\

      Anyway, very intuitive point you made

      Peace All

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        wildguest1956
        wrote on last edited by
        #17

        With the clarity and vivacity in the language with which the incidents are narrated (there are many other instances in the Quran), it is very hard for me to take any allegorical interpretation of ?turning a stick into a serpent? or ?dividing of the sea followed by striking with the staff?. I find myself in an ?uneasy? situation in front of the people of general scientific attitude.

        At the end of the ?story? God said, ?In that is a sign, but most of them are not believers.?

        What is the sign here in the story?

        Peace prashant_kumar,

        Do you really think Moses was a magician ?

        Peace

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          unknownuser
          wrote on last edited by
          #18

          Hello JM

          may I ask this question as a firm believer that the staff was turned into a snake and the sea was splitted with the will of Allah

          of course he was not a magician, He was a messenger that Allah supported Him great deal, this support came on the form of miracles, exactly as it happned with many other prophets

          so for you if to believe that by turning the staff into a snake is nothing but magic and can't happen according to the will of Allah "EXACTLY AS HE TOLD US", then Jesus for you must be a magician as well, right?

          Cheers

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            wildguest1956
            wrote on last edited by
            #19

            Peace Ahmed,

            I have 2 questions for you

            1. Why did God not help Muhammad by some magical trick, like pulling a rabbit out of an empty hat, or something like that ?

            2. How do you explain the following verse

            He said ?No, you cast down.? So their ropes and staffs appeared from their magic as if they were moving. And Moses held some fear in himself. We said ?Do not fear, you will best them.? ?And cast down what is in your right hand it will consume what they have made. They have only made the work of a magician, and the magician will not succeed no matter what he does.?

            • How did the magicians of Pharaoh manage to make their ropes and staffs appear like they were moving ?
            • How did Moses do in to have what their have made have consumed ?

            Peace

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              unknownuser
              wrote on last edited by
              #20

              peace

              Altso, turning a snake into a stick and reverse the effect, is kindergarden magic for absolute beginners in the craft. A magician who doesnt know the snake to stick trick is no magician at all. So why does Moses chose to try and impress with a trick that all the magicians of pharao knew by heart?

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                Samia
                wrote on last edited by
                #21

                Salaam all

                Moses turned his stick into a snake; but that was not the end of the story. What puzzled the magicians was that the stick of Moses swallowed all their stuff. The magicians were the first to acknowledge that what Moses just did was not magic, and they immediately believed in his God.

                As to why Moses reverted to a trick they are masters of, it is, I think, the system of Allah to send His messengers with a mircle in the "language" understood by the people they are sent to, and to show them whatever they hold best, what God Has is far better.

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                  lovelymoslems
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #22

                  It is not fictious but mutasyabih terms,

                  Snake = something poisonus, men's idiologies are to be snakes.
                  Magician = men who cheats other, the politicians, leader of parties are magicians.

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                    unknownuser
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #23

                    It is not fictious but mutasyabih terms,

                    Snake = something poisonus, men's idiologies are to be snakes.
                    Magician = men who cheats other, the politicians, leader of parties are magicians.

                    peace...very interresting, i must admit. Altso mens idologies have a tendency to "eat up" eachother. So Moses, symbolically showed that his ideology was stronger than theirs? add doctors to the magicians category.

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                      unknownuser
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #24

                      Peace Ahmed,

                      I have 2 questions for you

                      Peace JM

                      Sure bro but I hope your questions make sense

                      1. Why did God not help Muhammad by some magical trick, like pulling a rabbit out of an empty hat, or something like that ?

                      Well bro, how do you want me to respond on Allah?s behalf?, do you think He told me that personally or what?, let me tell you bro, Allah is the one who will respond to your question not me, I only follow what He says

                      And they say Why is not a sign sent to him from his Lord? Say The unseen is only for Allah; therefore wait-- surely I too, with you am of those who wait.

                      (20)

                      -> See bro the same question YOU ASKED ?And they say Why is not a sign sent to him from his Lord??, now Allah is telling you this ? The unseen is only for Allah; therefore wait-- surely I too, with you am of those who wait.?

                      And again

                      And they say Why has not a sign been sent down to him from his Lord? Say Surely Allah is able to send down a sign, but most of them do not know.

                      (37)

                      -> Same question YOU ASKED bro ? And they say Why has not a sign been sent down to him from his Lord??, Allah is telling you bro ?Surely Allah is able to send down a sign, but most of them do not know.?

                      And again but now we have a twist bro and I hope you pay attention

                      And those who disbelieve say Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.

                      (7)

                      -> What can I say?, well here is the same question YOU ASKED again ? Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord??, now the problem bro that Allah has classified those who say that and sure this include yourself because you said the same exact thing and all of you are classified as ? And those who disbelieve say?, therefore you have been classified as a disbeliever by Allah, because you are questioning the same EXACT question the disbelievers keep asking, now Allah is telling those disbelievers ? You (Mohammad) are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.?

                      The classification of disbelief to those who raise that question is confirmed in the following verse

                      And those who disbelieve say Why is not a sign sent down upon him by his Lord? Say Surely Allah makes him who will go astray, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).

                      (27)

                      -> See, the same classification? And those who disbelieve say?, and what they say?, the same question YOU ASKED exactly ? Why is not a sign sent down upon him by his Lord??, and Allah is telling those disbelievers ? Say Surely Allah makes him who will go astray, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).?, it seems to me that Allah made them go astray. I hope Allah guides you bro when you turn to Him.

                      And finally for that question, is it really true that Allah didn?t send down a sign to Mohammad?, well, Allah is telling us that He did

                      50- And they say Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord? Say The signs are only with Allah, and I am only a plain warner.

                      51- Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe.

                      52- Say Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you; He knows what is in the heavens and the earth. And (as for) those who believe in the falsehood and disbelieve in Allah, these it is that are the losers.

                      (50)
                      (51)
                      (52)

                      -> The same exact question YOU ASKED ? Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord??, then Allah is responding to you ? The signs are only with Allah, and I (Mohammad) am only a plain warner?, then we read in 2951 ? Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them??, i.e. The Quran was enough of a sign for those who believe, ? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe.?, this actually confirms the status of disbelief for those who ask the question you asked ? Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord??

                      -> Therefore bro I have only one thing to tell you regarding this subject and what will be better than what Allah said in 2952 ? Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you;?, I submitted to Him and I trust every word He says even if it makes no sense to me, my sense is in no way can be compared to my Creator sense, I don?t know His sense but I?m, sure He knows mine? He knows what is in the heavens and the earth. And (as for)?, on the other hand those been classified as disbelievers ? And (as for) those who believe in the falsehood and disbelieve in Allah, these it is that are the losers.?

                      I will respond to your second question later today inshaallah

                      Salam

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                        unknownuser
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #25
                        1. How do you explain the following verse

                        He said ?No, you cast down.? So their ropes and staffs appeared from their magic as if they were moving. And Moses held some fear in himself. We said ?Do not fear, you will best them.? ?And cast down what is in your right hand it will consume what they have made. They have only made the work of a magician, and the magician will not succeed no matter what he does.?

                        Peace bro

                        Let me bring the Arabic verses to support my reply, I will include 2066-73,

                        66 He said Nay! cast down. then lo! their cords and their rods-- it was imaged to him on account of their magic as if they were running.

                        67 So Musa conceived in his mind a fear.

                        68 We said Fear not, surely you shall be the uppermost,

                        69 And cast down what is in your right hand; it shall devour what they have wrought; they have wrought only the plan of a magician, and the magician shall not be successful wheresoever he may come from.

                        70 So the magicians were thrown down to prostration they said, "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses".

                        71 (Pharaoh) said "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this must be your leader, who has taught you magic! be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees so shall ye know for certain, which of us can give the more severe and the more lasting punishment!"

                        72 They said "Never shall we regard thee as more than the Clear Signs that have come to us, or than Him Who created us! so decree whatever thou desirest to decree for thou canst only decree (touching) the life of this world.

                        73 Surely we believe in our Lord that He may forgive us our sins and the magic to which you compelled us; and Allah is better and more abiding.

                        (66)
                        (67)
                        (6
                        (69)
                        (70)
                        (71)
                        (72)
                        (73)

                        • How did the magicians of Pharaoh manage to make their ropes and staffs appear like they were moving ?

                        See, starting to ask some silly questions that I thought you should know the answers already even without reading the Quran, in life there is something called magic, this magic called as such because it is an illusion, i.e. it is not real, i.e. they use tricks, well, a few years back David Coperfield visited Australia and I went to see his show live on stage, it is amazing how he prohibits any use of any cameras whatsoever, and I tried to use my binocular to track him and sure managed to discover a few of his tricks however for many other tough ones I could not figure out how he did it, later on he had a TV interview and he said that exactly, ?What we do is 100% illusion, i.e. NOT REAL, and we use tricks that all my staff know and if any gets fired and expose our tricks we kill him/her?, the bottom line magic is a sort of schooling that you need intense and very tiring knowledge to gain it over years and years of hard work, that is why a good magician makes very good money like David and you can?t deny that he is one of the best if not the best of?m all .

                        The Quran actually confirmed to us this fact David Coperfield mentioned in front of my eyes about magicians, this fact was mentioned clearly in the verses you posted so let?s walk through it and see if what Moses did was magic or not

                        -> Verse 66, the fact David mentioned is clearly said in this verse ?He said Nay! cast down. then lo! their cords and their rods-- it was imaged to him on account of their magic as if they were running. , SEE, ? ?, ? it was imaged to him on account of their magic as if they were running?, I.E, it was never REAL, it was a clear cut ILLUSION like the ones David Coperfiield and many other magicians learnt to do.

                        -> Verse 67, and because Moses was not a magiacian at all, it was natural to be scared, especially he was not watching it for fun rather a massive challenge to him ?So Musa conceived in his mind a fear.?

                        -> Verse 68, Allah knew the fear in Moses mind so He is supporting Him mentally ?We said Fear not, surely you shall be the uppermost,

                        -> Verse 69, and now here is the sign sent down to Moses ?|?And cast down what is in your right hand; it shall devour what they have wrought;, now there is no way a magician can do this, because it is not magic, this is real stuff that will be done by the One who is able to do anything but what they have done was only magic, an illusion ?they have wrought only the plan of a magician,? and the verse ended with a statement condemning anyone who try to learn magic ? and the magician shall not be successful wheresoever he may come from. , I?m not sure if this verse can be used to totally prohibit magic in the case of fun and a professional way to earn a living not to influence others to disobey God? But this is not important in our discussion

                        -> Verse 70, ?and because the magicians knew what they saw was not in their books that they spent years to learn, they realized it was not an illusion rather a sign from Allah, ?So the magicians were thrown down to prostration they said, ?We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses?

                        -> Verse 71, we see Pharaoh accusing them that Moses was the master magician who taught them the secrets of magic, this clearly proves that magic is nothing but a knowledge and experience in how to create an illusion, because the magicians WHO HAVE THIS KNOWLEDGE, realized on the spot that this is not an illusion while Pharaoh who have no knowledge of any magic still saw what Moses did as magic, ?(Pharaoh) said Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this must be your leader, who has taught you magic!, then Pharaoh went mad ? be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees so shall ye know for certain, which of us can give the more severe and the more lasting punishment!"

                        -> Verse 72, did the magicians feared Pharaoh and his horrifying threats to crucify them? ?They said Never shall we regard thee as more than the Clear Signs that have come to us, or than Him Who created us! so decree whatever thou desirest to decree for thou canst only decree (touching) the life of this world. ?, clearly they realized that what they saw was not an illusion rather a sign from the God Who is able to do whatever anything we can or we can?t think of, like turning the whole heaven and earth into a flea

                        -> Verse 73, in here the magicians confirm their submission to Allah and at the same time telling us that they have been compelled to learn magic, see it is a job, ? Surely we believe in our Lord that He may forgive us our sins and the magic to which you compelled us; and Allah is better and more abiding.

                        Now clearly from the above that it was not magic nor Moses was a magician rather a sign from Allah, and the verses I posted make great sense indeed because they confirm to me what David Coperfield said in front of my eyes that magic is nothing but an illusion and never real and sure the magicians who have knowledge of magic realized on the spot that what Moses did was not magic and they even realized that Moses on his own can?t do that and they submitted to Allah not to Moses as they were submitting before to Pharaoh

                        • How did Moses do in to have what their have made have consumed ?

                        Peace

                        This is another silly question bro, because Moses did nothing it was Allah who did that so for Allah who was described 35 times in the Quran as being able to do anything, I guess turning a staff into a real snake that eats other ropes is very easy indeed, I reckon creating the heaven and earth is far harder, or how about the black hole that swallow anything near buy as the staff of Moses swallowed other magicians staffs?, do you reckon making a that black hole is harder than making that staff?

                        Well as I said Allah is the one who did the action exactly as He told us, as well He also told us that all the signs Jesus did was done by His permissions, well Allah is able to do anything, this is what He said about Himself 35 times in the Quran, the book you claim to have believed in it, the book you claim to have understood it and following it, well I see you far way of that path

                        1. ? ", ?Wa Kana Allah Ala Kul Shai Qadir?

                        2. ? ?, ?Ina Allah Ala Kul Shai Qadir?

                        3. ? ?, ?Wa Allah Ala Kul Shai Qadir?

                        4. ? ?, ?Wa Inahu Ala Kul Shai Qadir?

                        5. ? ?, ?Wa Hoa Ala Kul Shai Qadir?

                        6. ? ?, ?Inaka Ala Kul Shai Qadir?

                        7. ? ?, ?Fa Hoa Ala Kul Shai Qadir?

                        35 times bro you see the above sentences repeated that Allah is able to do anything, why you can?t accept His witness?, isn?t Allah enough of a wittness to you?

                        It seems to me that you truly don?t know what Allah is and what He is doing with us and His other creatures that He told us about, this is a huge conflict that you have and I?m sure it is not going to be easy if not impossible for you to resolve without Allah will

                        Salam

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                          unknownuser
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #26

                          those of you against miracles, explain to me these verses

                          We supported Moses with nine profound miracles - ask the Children of Israel. When he went to them, Pharaoh said to him, "I think that you, Moses, are bewitched."

                          He said, "You know full well that no one can manifest these except, obviously, the Lord of the heavens and the earth. I think that you, Pharaoh, are doomed."

                          Recall that Moses sought water for his people. We said, "Strike the rock with your staff." Whereupon, twelve springs gushed out therefrom. The members of each tribe knew their own water. Eat and drink from GOD's provisions, and do not roam the earth corruptingly.

                          Don't confuse the law of this planet with the law of the Almighty

                          The Initiator of the heavens and the earth to have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.

                          Are you challenging God's omnipotence by limiting him to the laws of YOUR planet?

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                            prashant_kumar
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #27

                            Peace JM.

                            I don?t think that Moses was a Magician. Jesus healed the lepers, yet he was not a doctor. Muhammad composed poetry, yet he was not a poet.

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                              Samia
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #28

                              Salaam all

                              I don?t think that Moses was a Magician. Jesus healed the lepers, yet he was not a doctor. Muhammad composed poetry, yet he was not a poet.

                              Who gave them those "miracles" and why? (I mean three of them)

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                                wildguest1956
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #29

                                Peace Ahmed,

                                First, let me say you that, even though I strongly disagree with your interpretations, I greatly respect your energy and generousness.

                                My first question was

                                1. Why did God not help Muhammad by some magical trick, like pulling a rabbit out of an empty hat, or something like that ?

                                I am sorry, but you have not really responded to it.

                                According to you, God has helped Moses through miracles. However, God has refused to do the same to Muhammad.
                                My question is why did God change his way ?

                                My response to this question is that God has not changed his way, and that, the verses where you see He helps Moses through miracles have to be understood metaphorically.

                                What is yours?

                                As a side note, the people who are said to be disbelievers in the verses who are quoted are not simply asking a question ; they are demanding miracles, because they cannot believe in God without miracles. And this is because they cannot believe in God without miracles that they are said to be disbelievers.


                                Now, let?s go back to the story with Moses, Pharaoh and his magicians.
                                There are 2 episodes to this story

                                1. Moses talks to Pharaoh
                                2. Moses talks to the magicians Pharaoh has gathered

                                Let?s see how the first episode is narrated in 2 different places in the Quran

                                He said ?So who is the lord of you both O Moses??
                                He said ?Our Lord is the One who gave everything its creation, then guided.?
                                He said ?What then has happened to the previous generations??
                                He said ?It?s knowledge is with my Lord, in a record. My Lord does not err or forget.?
                                The One who made for you the Earth habitable and He made ways for you in it, and He brought down water from the sky, so We brought out with it pairs of vegetation of all types.
                                Eat and raise your livestock, in that are signs for those of thought.
                                From it We created you and in it We return you, and from it We bring you out another time.
                                And We showed him Our signs, all of them, but he denied and refused.
                                He said ?Have you come to us to take us out of our land with your magic O Moses??

                                Then after them We sent Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his leaders. But they did wrong in them, so see how is the end of the corrupters.
                                And Moses said ?O Pharaoh, I am a messenger from the Lord of the worlds.?
                                ?It is not proper for me to say about God except the truth; I have come to you with proof from your Lord. So send with me the Children of Israel.?
                                He said ?If you have come with a sign then bring it, if you are of the truthful??
                                He threw down his staff and it manifested into a serpent.
                                And he drew out his hand, and it became pure white for the onlookers.
                                The commanders from among the people of Pharaoh said ?This is a knowledgeable magician!?
                                ?He wishes to drive you out of your land; what is your command??

                                In the first account (), Moses explains to Pharaoh all the signs of the universes. He shows the signs of God exactly in the same way as in the Quran.
                                And, in the second account (), Moses turns his staff into a serpent, and show his hand white.

                                My understanding is that the second account is a metaphor of the first one. It means that the discourse of Moses was so convincing that it was as if he has turned a staff into a serpent.

                                If you want to check the dictionary, you will see that a white hand (yad baida) can mean an argument very clear, a demonstrating, a demonstrated argument, an allegation, or an evidence.


                                Moreover, the magicians were not what we call today magicians. They were rather rhetoricians. The notion of magic has evolved.

                                "Magic is the process of inducing belief and creating community, with reference to the dynamics of a rhetorical situation."
                                "Magic is a social act whose medium is persuasive discourse."
                                "Magic is a term through which we can address the ways in which words make real things happen."
                                "Magic designates a broad range of symbolic actions that are really magical, exerting strong effects on society..."
                                "The recognition that discourse is made of shifting sands, or energies, enfranchises rhetoric as invention, and encourages the generation of multiple solutions, perspectives, formulations, in behavior variously associated with imagination and creativity."
                                http//kairosnews.org/rhetoric-requires-magic

                                An interesting link about the evolution of the concept

                                For Emig, magic means the inexplicable and spontaneous materialization of a finished product; this is the familiar rabbit-out-of-a-hat definition. If we consider an alternate definition, grounded in anthropological and sociological conceptions of magic, we allow for a significant reversal of what magical and non-magical mean, a reversal that preserves the spirit but not the terminology of Emig's distinction. Daniel Lawrence O'Keefe synthesizes the major modern social theories of magic in Stolen Lightning in order to propose that magic is the "audacious individual use of existing powerful symbols" in which "there is always a curious tension between the traditional and the surreptitious, and hence between syllogism, implications from accepted truth, and an enthymeme that bends consensus to private ends". Such tensions define a social context in which magic "works because people agree it works". Stopping short of concluding that magic is rhetoric, O'Keefe defines magic with rhetorical terms, and he concludes that a complex of social/rhetorical contingencies account for its effects. Magic is not the instant and arhetorical product of an otherworldly incantation; it is the process of inducing belief and creating community with reference to the dynamics of a rhetorical situation. Magic is a social act whose medium is persuasive discourse, and so it must entail the complexities of social interaction, invention, communication, and composition. Thus, magic becomes a term through which we can address, as John Briggs points out, "the rhetor's power over audiences and subject matters, the power of audiences and subject matters over the rhetor, the power of particular kinds of discourses".
                                http//jac.gsu.edu/jac/12.2/Articles/7.htm

                                An example of that in ancient Greece and ancient China
                                (In ancient Greece, magic is a deceptive speech)

                                Magic can be seen as a category of rhetoric insofar as it is used to persuade someone or move them to action.

                                The magician in ancient Greece, served as a power and communications expert, crisis manager, miracle healer and inflicter of damages, and all-purpose therapist and agent of worried, troubled, and troublesome souls". The same could be said for rhetors. Covino states that in the Western tradition, the magician and the rhetor are similar figures, and often the same figure...".

                                William Covino notes that in 415 BCE, the sophist Gorgias had warned that speech can bewitch the soul with a kind of evil persuasion , voicing the ancient worry that words could be vehicles for diabolical forces".

                                In the Sophist, Plato concluded that the sophist is a magician who merely imitates reality. He therefore can be counted among the conjurers". Covino, citing Jacqueline de Romilly?s Magic and Rhetoric in Ancient Greece, notes that Plato?s Socrates often charged his opponents with bad magic, while also weaving his own spells". Although Plato disliked the sophists, the relationship between sophistry and magic became inextricably bound together.

                                Unlike the ancient Greek conception of magic as a deceptive speech act, the ancient Chinese magical practices were originally focused on the written word
                                http//www.cwru.edu/affil/sce/old/ricemayton500.html

                                And, lastly, a study of magic in ancient Egypt

                                To realize these goals, the Egyptians placed their trust in the power of speech, or the ability to create by uttering the proper words (creative utterance or ?hu?) insightfully conceived beforehand in the mind (?ab? or heart).

                                The magician is a scholar and a priest. He knows how to read and write hieroglyphs, knows the ancient books and their powerful formul?. He is a magician because he knows. Hence, his official function is symbolized by a papyrus scroll, determinative of writing, abstraction and esoterical knowledge. He is able to travel in the realm of the dead protected by Horus (cf. Coffin Texts, spell 572). In this magic the mouth is essential, for it is with it that the Great Word is spoken. If it were closed, nothing could be said and no magic could ensue. The magician knows his name and knows what exists in his heart and so he is able to utter whatever he likes. However, the way the Great Word is pronounced, its intonation, rhythm and psalmody are also very important. To repeat a formula four times made it powerful in all quaters of creation. Magic is a powerful tool to realize spiritual material ends.
                                http//www.maat.sofiatopia.org/heka.htm

                                The concept of magic (sihr) of the Quran has nothing to do with the modern concept of rabbit out of the hat. In the Quran, and particularly in the story of Moses, sihr is clearly deceptive speech, as explained above.

                                And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, those who rejected said of the truth that came to them ?This is evidently magic!?

                                No rabbit out of the hat in this verse only speech.

                                Peace

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                                  Alen
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #30

                                  Salaam.

                                  First of all, nothing in the Qur'an is fictitious, okay. So, let's just leave it at that. That subject is closed.

                                  Second, people demanded miracles from Moses but from Muhammad they demanded that Allah s.w.t. punishes them already, they wanted Allah Most High to destroy them and Allah Most Powerful is forgiving them over and over again.

                                  Third, Qur'an itself is a miracle.
                                  Of course, Allah Most High knows best.

                                  Salaam.

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                                    prashant_kumar
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #31

                                    According to you, God has helped Moses through miracles. However, God has refused to do the same to Muhammad.
                                    My question is why did God change his way?

                                    Because mankind was changed. At the time of Muhammad, mankind was at the transition from teen age to youth. It may also be said that God did not require to show such miracles. We see that Muhammad made a huge success just within 23 years without such miracles. At the beginning, he longed for such things, because people generally did not listen to him. But God asked Muhammad to wait and see. And Muhammad, as well as others, saw what happened.

                                    The descriptions of the events of Moses and Jesus were there in some early (Meccan) chapters of the Quran. It is very hard for me to believe that Muhammad himself made mistakes in understanding the meaning of those verses. Otherwise, why should Muhammad, being a Prophet, long for such miracles? He should have rather said that no prophet before had such miracles. Allah could simply affirm it, and He, in the Quran, could simply deny such events in the case of Moses and Jesus etc. Rather we see that the Quran is talking in the same fashion of the Jewish ?legend?.

                                    As a side note, the people who are said to be disbelievers in the verses who are quoted are not simply asking a question; they are demanding miracles, because they cannot believe in God without miracles. And this is because they cannot believe in God without miracles that they are said to be disbelievers.

                                    ?And I inspired the disciples that you shall believe in Me and My messenger; they said ?We believe, and bear witness that we have surrendered.??
                                    And the disciples said ?O Jesus son of Mary, can your Lord send down for us a feast from heaven?? He said ?Be aware of God if you are believers.?
                                    They said ?We want to eat from it and so our hearts become relieved, and so we know that you are truthful, and so that we can become a witness over it.?
                                    Jesus son of Mary, said ?Our Lord and god, send down to us a feast from heaven, that it becomes a joy to us from the first to the last, and a sign from You, and provide for us, you are the best provider.?
                                    God said ?I will send it down to you, but whoever rejects after this from amongst you, I will punish him a punishment like no one else from the worlds will be punished!?
                                    (5111-115)

                                    Those who believed in and submitted to God from among the disciples of Jesus also asked for miracles.

                                    If demanding for miracle is an absolute sign of disbelievers, how come that a Prophet like Muhammad longed for a miracle?

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                                      prashant_kumar
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #32

                                      And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, those who rejected said of the truth that came to them ?This is evidently magic!?
                                      No rabbit out of the hat in this verse only speech.

                                      Third, Qur'an itself is a miracle.

                                      I think so, Alen. Had it been only a speech, they would not accuse Muhammad to be a magician.

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                                        unknownuser
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #33

                                        What stopped us from sending the miracles is that the previous generations have rejected them. For example, we showed Thamoud the camel, a profound (miracle), but they transgressed against it. We sent the miracles only to instill reverence.

                                        1759 And what stopped Us from sending the signs except that the previous people disbelieved in them. And We sent to Thamud the camel with foresight, but they did her wrong. And We do not send the signs except to make them fearful.

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                                          unknownuser
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #34

                                          peace

                                          interesting point which reminds me of something...

                                          Otherwise, why should Muhammad, being a Prophet, long for such miracles?

                                          When the miracles/ayahs are being narrated to Muhammad, is he thinking 'hmm these miracles must be allegories'

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