Is it a fictitious story?
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It is not fictious but mutasyabih terms,
Snake = something poisonus, men's idiologies are to be snakes.
Magician = men who cheats other, the politicians, leader of parties are magicians. -
It is not fictious but mutasyabih terms,
Snake = something poisonus, men's idiologies are to be snakes.
Magician = men who cheats other, the politicians, leader of parties are magicians.peace...very interresting, i must admit. Altso mens idologies have a tendency to "eat up" eachother. So Moses, symbolically showed that his ideology was stronger than theirs? add doctors to the magicians category.
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Peace Ahmed,
I have 2 questions for you
Peace JM
Sure bro but I hope your questions make sense
- Why did God not help Muhammad by some magical trick, like pulling a rabbit out of an empty hat, or something like that ?
Well bro, how do you want me to respond on Allah?s behalf?, do you think He told me that personally or what?, let me tell you bro, Allah is the one who will respond to your question not me, I only follow what He says
And they say Why is not a sign sent to him from his Lord? Say The unseen is only for Allah; therefore wait-- surely I too, with you am of those who wait.
(20)
-> See bro the same question YOU ASKED ?And they say Why is not a sign sent to him from his Lord??, now Allah is telling you this ? The unseen is only for Allah; therefore wait-- surely I too, with you am of those who wait.?
And again
And they say Why has not a sign been sent down to him from his Lord? Say Surely Allah is able to send down a sign, but most of them do not know.
(37)
-> Same question YOU ASKED bro ? And they say Why has not a sign been sent down to him from his Lord??, Allah is telling you bro ?Surely Allah is able to send down a sign, but most of them do not know.?
And again but now we have a twist bro and I hope you pay attention
And those who disbelieve say Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord? You are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.
(7)
-> What can I say?, well here is the same question YOU ASKED again ? Why has not a sign been sent down upon him from his Lord??, now the problem bro that Allah has classified those who say that and sure this include yourself because you said the same exact thing and all of you are classified as ? And those who disbelieve say?, therefore you have been classified as a disbeliever by Allah, because you are questioning the same EXACT question the disbelievers keep asking, now Allah is telling those disbelievers ? You (Mohammad) are only a warner and (there is) a guide for every people.?
The classification of disbelief to those who raise that question is confirmed in the following verse
And those who disbelieve say Why is not a sign sent down upon him by his Lord? Say Surely Allah makes him who will go astray, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).
(27)
-> See, the same classification? And those who disbelieve say?, and what they say?, the same question YOU ASKED exactly ? Why is not a sign sent down upon him by his Lord??, and Allah is telling those disbelievers ? Say Surely Allah makes him who will go astray, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him).?, it seems to me that Allah made them go astray. I hope Allah guides you bro when you turn to Him.
And finally for that question, is it really true that Allah didn?t send down a sign to Mohammad?, well, Allah is telling us that He did
50- And they say Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord? Say The signs are only with Allah, and I am only a plain warner.
51- Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe.
52- Say Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you; He knows what is in the heavens and the earth. And (as for) those who believe in the falsehood and disbelieve in Allah, these it is that are the losers.
(50)
(51)
(52)-> The same exact question YOU ASKED ? Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord??, then Allah is responding to you ? The signs are only with Allah, and I (Mohammad) am only a plain warner?, then we read in 2951 ? Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book which is recited to them??, i.e. The Quran was enough of a sign for those who believe, ? Most surely there is mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe.?, this actually confirms the status of disbelief for those who ask the question you asked ? Why are not signs sent down upon him from his Lord??
-> Therefore bro I have only one thing to tell you regarding this subject and what will be better than what Allah said in 2952 ? Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you;?, I submitted to Him and I trust every word He says even if it makes no sense to me, my sense is in no way can be compared to my Creator sense, I don?t know His sense but I?m, sure He knows mine? He knows what is in the heavens and the earth. And (as for)?, on the other hand those been classified as disbelievers ? And (as for) those who believe in the falsehood and disbelieve in Allah, these it is that are the losers.?
I will respond to your second question later today inshaallah
Salam
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- How do you explain the following verse
He said ?No, you cast down.? So their ropes and staffs appeared from their magic as if they were moving. And Moses held some fear in himself. We said ?Do not fear, you will best them.? ?And cast down what is in your right hand it will consume what they have made. They have only made the work of a magician, and the magician will not succeed no matter what he does.?
Peace bro
Let me bring the Arabic verses to support my reply, I will include 2066-73,
66 He said Nay! cast down. then lo! their cords and their rods-- it was imaged to him on account of their magic as if they were running.
67 So Musa conceived in his mind a fear.
68 We said Fear not, surely you shall be the uppermost,
69 And cast down what is in your right hand; it shall devour what they have wrought; they have wrought only the plan of a magician, and the magician shall not be successful wheresoever he may come from.
70 So the magicians were thrown down to prostration they said, "We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses".
71 (Pharaoh) said "Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this must be your leader, who has taught you magic! be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees so shall ye know for certain, which of us can give the more severe and the more lasting punishment!"
72 They said "Never shall we regard thee as more than the Clear Signs that have come to us, or than Him Who created us! so decree whatever thou desirest to decree for thou canst only decree (touching) the life of this world.
73 Surely we believe in our Lord that He may forgive us our sins and the magic to which you compelled us; and Allah is better and more abiding.
(66)
(67)
(6
(69)
(70)
(71)
(72)
(73)- How did the magicians of Pharaoh manage to make their ropes and staffs appear like they were moving ?
See, starting to ask some silly questions that I thought you should know the answers already even without reading the Quran, in life there is something called magic, this magic called as such because it is an illusion, i.e. it is not real, i.e. they use tricks, well, a few years back David Coperfield visited Australia and I went to see his show live on stage, it is amazing how he prohibits any use of any cameras whatsoever, and I tried to use my binocular to track him and sure managed to discover a few of his tricks however for many other tough ones I could not figure out how he did it, later on he had a TV interview and he said that exactly, ?What we do is 100% illusion, i.e. NOT REAL, and we use tricks that all my staff know and if any gets fired and expose our tricks we kill him/her?, the bottom line magic is a sort of schooling that you need intense and very tiring knowledge to gain it over years and years of hard work, that is why a good magician makes very good money like David and you can?t deny that he is one of the best if not the best of?m all .
The Quran actually confirmed to us this fact David Coperfield mentioned in front of my eyes about magicians, this fact was mentioned clearly in the verses you posted so let?s walk through it and see if what Moses did was magic or not
-> Verse 66, the fact David mentioned is clearly said in this verse ?He said Nay! cast down. then lo! their cords and their rods-- it was imaged to him on account of their magic as if they were running. , SEE, ? ?, ? it was imaged to him on account of their magic as if they were running?, I.E, it was never REAL, it was a clear cut ILLUSION like the ones David Coperfiield and many other magicians learnt to do.
-> Verse 67, and because Moses was not a magiacian at all, it was natural to be scared, especially he was not watching it for fun rather a massive challenge to him ?So Musa conceived in his mind a fear.?
-> Verse 68, Allah knew the fear in Moses mind so He is supporting Him mentally ?We said Fear not, surely you shall be the uppermost,
-> Verse 69, and now here is the sign sent down to Moses ?|?And cast down what is in your right hand; it shall devour what they have wrought;, now there is no way a magician can do this, because it is not magic, this is real stuff that will be done by the One who is able to do anything but what they have done was only magic, an illusion ?they have wrought only the plan of a magician,? and the verse ended with a statement condemning anyone who try to learn magic ? and the magician shall not be successful wheresoever he may come from. , I?m not sure if this verse can be used to totally prohibit magic in the case of fun and a professional way to earn a living not to influence others to disobey God? But this is not important in our discussion
-> Verse 70, ?and because the magicians knew what they saw was not in their books that they spent years to learn, they realized it was not an illusion rather a sign from Allah, ?So the magicians were thrown down to prostration they said, ?We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses?
-> Verse 71, we see Pharaoh accusing them that Moses was the master magician who taught them the secrets of magic, this clearly proves that magic is nothing but a knowledge and experience in how to create an illusion, because the magicians WHO HAVE THIS KNOWLEDGE, realized on the spot that this is not an illusion while Pharaoh who have no knowledge of any magic still saw what Moses did as magic, ?(Pharaoh) said Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this must be your leader, who has taught you magic!, then Pharaoh went mad ? be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees so shall ye know for certain, which of us can give the more severe and the more lasting punishment!"
-> Verse 72, did the magicians feared Pharaoh and his horrifying threats to crucify them? ?They said Never shall we regard thee as more than the Clear Signs that have come to us, or than Him Who created us! so decree whatever thou desirest to decree for thou canst only decree (touching) the life of this world. ?, clearly they realized that what they saw was not an illusion rather a sign from the God Who is able to do whatever anything we can or we can?t think of, like turning the whole heaven and earth into a flea
-> Verse 73, in here the magicians confirm their submission to Allah and at the same time telling us that they have been compelled to learn magic, see it is a job, ? Surely we believe in our Lord that He may forgive us our sins and the magic to which you compelled us; and Allah is better and more abiding.
Now clearly from the above that it was not magic nor Moses was a magician rather a sign from Allah, and the verses I posted make great sense indeed because they confirm to me what David Coperfield said in front of my eyes that magic is nothing but an illusion and never real and sure the magicians who have knowledge of magic realized on the spot that what Moses did was not magic and they even realized that Moses on his own can?t do that and they submitted to Allah not to Moses as they were submitting before to Pharaoh
- How did Moses do in to have what their have made have consumed ?
Peace
This is another silly question bro, because Moses did nothing it was Allah who did that so for Allah who was described 35 times in the Quran as being able to do anything, I guess turning a staff into a real snake that eats other ropes is very easy indeed, I reckon creating the heaven and earth is far harder, or how about the black hole that swallow anything near buy as the staff of Moses swallowed other magicians staffs?, do you reckon making a that black hole is harder than making that staff?
Well as I said Allah is the one who did the action exactly as He told us, as well He also told us that all the signs Jesus did was done by His permissions, well Allah is able to do anything, this is what He said about Himself 35 times in the Quran, the book you claim to have believed in it, the book you claim to have understood it and following it, well I see you far way of that path
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? ", ?Wa Kana Allah Ala Kul Shai Qadir?
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? ?, ?Ina Allah Ala Kul Shai Qadir?
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? ?, ?Wa Allah Ala Kul Shai Qadir?
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? ?, ?Wa Inahu Ala Kul Shai Qadir?
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? ?, ?Wa Hoa Ala Kul Shai Qadir?
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? ?, ?Inaka Ala Kul Shai Qadir?
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? ?, ?Fa Hoa Ala Kul Shai Qadir?
35 times bro you see the above sentences repeated that Allah is able to do anything, why you can?t accept His witness?, isn?t Allah enough of a wittness to you?
It seems to me that you truly don?t know what Allah is and what He is doing with us and His other creatures that He told us about, this is a huge conflict that you have and I?m sure it is not going to be easy if not impossible for you to resolve without Allah will
Salam
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those of you against miracles, explain to me these verses
We supported Moses with nine profound miracles - ask the Children of Israel. When he went to them, Pharaoh said to him, "I think that you, Moses, are bewitched."
He said, "You know full well that no one can manifest these except, obviously, the Lord of the heavens and the earth. I think that you, Pharaoh, are doomed."
Recall that Moses sought water for his people. We said, "Strike the rock with your staff." Whereupon, twelve springs gushed out therefrom. The members of each tribe knew their own water. Eat and drink from GOD's provisions, and do not roam the earth corruptingly.
Don't confuse the law of this planet with the law of the Almighty
The Initiator of the heavens and the earth to have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.
Are you challenging God's omnipotence by limiting him to the laws of YOUR planet?
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Peace JM.
I don?t think that Moses was a Magician. Jesus healed the lepers, yet he was not a doctor. Muhammad composed poetry, yet he was not a poet.
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Peace Ahmed,
First, let me say you that, even though I strongly disagree with your interpretations, I greatly respect your energy and generousness.
My first question was
- Why did God not help Muhammad by some magical trick, like pulling a rabbit out of an empty hat, or something like that ?
I am sorry, but you have not really responded to it.
According to you, God has helped Moses through miracles. However, God has refused to do the same to Muhammad.
My question is why did God change his way ?My response to this question is that God has not changed his way, and that, the verses where you see He helps Moses through miracles have to be understood metaphorically.
What is yours?
As a side note, the people who are said to be disbelievers in the verses who are quoted are not simply asking a question ; they are demanding miracles, because they cannot believe in God without miracles. And this is because they cannot believe in God without miracles that they are said to be disbelievers.
Now, let?s go back to the story with Moses, Pharaoh and his magicians.
There are 2 episodes to this story- Moses talks to Pharaoh
- Moses talks to the magicians Pharaoh has gathered
Let?s see how the first episode is narrated in 2 different places in the Quran
He said ?So who is the lord of you both O Moses??
He said ?Our Lord is the One who gave everything its creation, then guided.?
He said ?What then has happened to the previous generations??
He said ?It?s knowledge is with my Lord, in a record. My Lord does not err or forget.?
The One who made for you the Earth habitable and He made ways for you in it, and He brought down water from the sky, so We brought out with it pairs of vegetation of all types.
Eat and raise your livestock, in that are signs for those of thought.
From it We created you and in it We return you, and from it We bring you out another time.
And We showed him Our signs, all of them, but he denied and refused.
He said ?Have you come to us to take us out of our land with your magic O Moses??Then after them We sent Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his leaders. But they did wrong in them, so see how is the end of the corrupters.
And Moses said ?O Pharaoh, I am a messenger from the Lord of the worlds.?
?It is not proper for me to say about God except the truth; I have come to you with proof from your Lord. So send with me the Children of Israel.?
He said ?If you have come with a sign then bring it, if you are of the truthful??
He threw down his staff and it manifested into a serpent.
And he drew out his hand, and it became pure white for the onlookers.
The commanders from among the people of Pharaoh said ?This is a knowledgeable magician!?
?He wishes to drive you out of your land; what is your command??In the first account (), Moses explains to Pharaoh all the signs of the universes. He shows the signs of God exactly in the same way as in the Quran.
And, in the second account (), Moses turns his staff into a serpent, and show his hand white.My understanding is that the second account is a metaphor of the first one. It means that the discourse of Moses was so convincing that it was as if he has turned a staff into a serpent.
If you want to check the dictionary, you will see that a white hand (yad baida) can mean an argument very clear, a demonstrating, a demonstrated argument, an allegation, or an evidence.
Moreover, the magicians were not what we call today magicians. They were rather rhetoricians. The notion of magic has evolved.
"Magic is the process of inducing belief and creating community, with reference to the dynamics of a rhetorical situation."
"Magic is a social act whose medium is persuasive discourse."
"Magic is a term through which we can address the ways in which words make real things happen."
"Magic designates a broad range of symbolic actions that are really magical, exerting strong effects on society..."
"The recognition that discourse is made of shifting sands, or energies, enfranchises rhetoric as invention, and encourages the generation of multiple solutions, perspectives, formulations, in behavior variously associated with imagination and creativity."
http//kairosnews.org/rhetoric-requires-magicAn interesting link about the evolution of the concept
For Emig, magic means the inexplicable and spontaneous materialization of a finished product; this is the familiar rabbit-out-of-a-hat definition. If we consider an alternate definition, grounded in anthropological and sociological conceptions of magic, we allow for a significant reversal of what magical and non-magical mean, a reversal that preserves the spirit but not the terminology of Emig's distinction. Daniel Lawrence O'Keefe synthesizes the major modern social theories of magic in Stolen Lightning in order to propose that magic is the "audacious individual use of existing powerful symbols" in which "there is always a curious tension between the traditional and the surreptitious, and hence between syllogism, implications from accepted truth, and an enthymeme that bends consensus to private ends". Such tensions define a social context in which magic "works because people agree it works". Stopping short of concluding that magic is rhetoric, O'Keefe defines magic with rhetorical terms, and he concludes that a complex of social/rhetorical contingencies account for its effects. Magic is not the instant and arhetorical product of an otherworldly incantation; it is the process of inducing belief and creating community with reference to the dynamics of a rhetorical situation. Magic is a social act whose medium is persuasive discourse, and so it must entail the complexities of social interaction, invention, communication, and composition. Thus, magic becomes a term through which we can address, as John Briggs points out, "the rhetor's power over audiences and subject matters, the power of audiences and subject matters over the rhetor, the power of particular kinds of discourses".
http//jac.gsu.edu/jac/12.2/Articles/7.htmAn example of that in ancient Greece and ancient China
(In ancient Greece, magic is a deceptive speech)Magic can be seen as a category of rhetoric insofar as it is used to persuade someone or move them to action.
The magician in ancient Greece, served as a power and communications expert, crisis manager, miracle healer and inflicter of damages, and all-purpose therapist and agent of worried, troubled, and troublesome souls". The same could be said for rhetors. Covino states that in the Western tradition, the magician and the rhetor are similar figures, and often the same figure...".
William Covino notes that in 415 BCE, the sophist Gorgias had warned that speech can bewitch the soul with a kind of evil persuasion , voicing the ancient worry that words could be vehicles for diabolical forces".
In the Sophist, Plato concluded that the sophist is a magician who merely imitates reality. He therefore can be counted among the conjurers". Covino, citing Jacqueline de Romilly?s Magic and Rhetoric in Ancient Greece, notes that Plato?s Socrates often charged his opponents with bad magic, while also weaving his own spells". Although Plato disliked the sophists, the relationship between sophistry and magic became inextricably bound together.
Unlike the ancient Greek conception of magic as a deceptive speech act, the ancient Chinese magical practices were originally focused on the written word
http//www.cwru.edu/affil/sce/old/ricemayton500.htmlAnd, lastly, a study of magic in ancient Egypt
To realize these goals, the Egyptians placed their trust in the power of speech, or the ability to create by uttering the proper words (creative utterance or ?hu?) insightfully conceived beforehand in the mind (?ab? or heart).
The magician is a scholar and a priest. He knows how to read and write hieroglyphs, knows the ancient books and their powerful formul?. He is a magician because he knows. Hence, his official function is symbolized by a papyrus scroll, determinative of writing, abstraction and esoterical knowledge. He is able to travel in the realm of the dead protected by Horus (cf. Coffin Texts, spell 572). In this magic the mouth is essential, for it is with it that the Great Word is spoken. If it were closed, nothing could be said and no magic could ensue. The magician knows his name and knows what exists in his heart and so he is able to utter whatever he likes. However, the way the Great Word is pronounced, its intonation, rhythm and psalmody are also very important. To repeat a formula four times made it powerful in all quaters of creation. Magic is a powerful tool to realize spiritual material ends.
http//www.maat.sofiatopia.org/heka.htmThe concept of magic (sihr) of the Quran has nothing to do with the modern concept of rabbit out of the hat. In the Quran, and particularly in the story of Moses, sihr is clearly deceptive speech, as explained above.
And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, those who rejected said of the truth that came to them ?This is evidently magic!?
No rabbit out of the hat in this verse only speech.
Peace
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Salaam.
First of all, nothing in the Qur'an is fictitious, okay. So, let's just leave it at that. That subject is closed.
Second, people demanded miracles from Moses but from Muhammad they demanded that Allah s.w.t. punishes them already, they wanted Allah Most High to destroy them and Allah Most Powerful is forgiving them over and over again.
Third, Qur'an itself is a miracle.
Of course, Allah Most High knows best.Salaam.
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According to you, God has helped Moses through miracles. However, God has refused to do the same to Muhammad.
My question is why did God change his way?Because mankind was changed. At the time of Muhammad, mankind was at the transition from teen age to youth. It may also be said that God did not require to show such miracles. We see that Muhammad made a huge success just within 23 years without such miracles. At the beginning, he longed for such things, because people generally did not listen to him. But God asked Muhammad to wait and see. And Muhammad, as well as others, saw what happened.
The descriptions of the events of Moses and Jesus were there in some early (Meccan) chapters of the Quran. It is very hard for me to believe that Muhammad himself made mistakes in understanding the meaning of those verses. Otherwise, why should Muhammad, being a Prophet, long for such miracles? He should have rather said that no prophet before had such miracles. Allah could simply affirm it, and He, in the Quran, could simply deny such events in the case of Moses and Jesus etc. Rather we see that the Quran is talking in the same fashion of the Jewish ?legend?.
As a side note, the people who are said to be disbelievers in the verses who are quoted are not simply asking a question; they are demanding miracles, because they cannot believe in God without miracles. And this is because they cannot believe in God without miracles that they are said to be disbelievers.
?And I inspired the disciples that you shall believe in Me and My messenger; they said ?We believe, and bear witness that we have surrendered.??
And the disciples said ?O Jesus son of Mary, can your Lord send down for us a feast from heaven?? He said ?Be aware of God if you are believers.?
They said ?We want to eat from it and so our hearts become relieved, and so we know that you are truthful, and so that we can become a witness over it.?
Jesus son of Mary, said ?Our Lord and god, send down to us a feast from heaven, that it becomes a joy to us from the first to the last, and a sign from You, and provide for us, you are the best provider.?
God said ?I will send it down to you, but whoever rejects after this from amongst you, I will punish him a punishment like no one else from the worlds will be punished!?
(5111-115)Those who believed in and submitted to God from among the disciples of Jesus also asked for miracles.
If demanding for miracle is an absolute sign of disbelievers, how come that a Prophet like Muhammad longed for a miracle?
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And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, those who rejected said of the truth that came to them ?This is evidently magic!?
No rabbit out of the hat in this verse only speech.Third, Qur'an itself is a miracle.
I think so, Alen. Had it been only a speech, they would not accuse Muhammad to be a magician.
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What stopped us from sending the miracles is that the previous generations have rejected them. For example, we showed Thamoud the camel, a profound (miracle), but they transgressed against it. We sent the miracles only to instill reverence.
1759 And what stopped Us from sending the signs except that the previous people disbelieved in them. And We sent to Thamud the camel with foresight, but they did her wrong. And We do not send the signs except to make them fearful.
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peace
interesting point which reminds me of something...
Otherwise, why should Muhammad, being a Prophet, long for such miracles?
When the miracles/ayahs are being narrated to Muhammad, is he thinking 'hmm these miracles must be allegories'
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Peace Ahmed,
Peace mate
First, let me say you that, even though I strongly disagree with your interpretations, I greatly respect your energy and generousness.
Thanks bro, while I don?t agree with you as well, I like you as a person
My first question was
- Why did God not help Muhammad by some magical trick, like pulling a rabbit out of an empty hat, or something like that ?
I am sorry, but you have not really responded to it.
As I told you bro, you can?t ask me a question about God and seek answer according to my opinion, what I did with you is show you how Allah answered those who asked the same question you asked
So if Allah didn?t answer your question I will have no answer because I don?t speak on Allah?s behalf, nor I take any human claiming to do as such while His words are in front of me in a book called Quran
According to you, God has helped Moses through miracles. However, God has refused to do the same to Muhammad.
God refused to do a sort of magical miracle with Mohammad however He clearly told us that He sent him another sort of miracle, it is called Quran, now please answer Allah question to you
Allah is asking you bro
?Isn?t the Quran enough of a sign to you??
My question is why did God change his way ?
Again I don?t talk on His behalf bro, if that is what He wants to do then it is sweet with me
My response to this question is that God has not changed his way,
How do you know that?
and that, the verses where you see He helps Moses through miracles have to be understood metaphorically.
Allah never said the verses are metaphor, the walkthrough clearly proves that it was real
What is yours?
Mine of what?
As a side note, the people who are said to be disbelievers in the verses who are quoted are not simply asking a question ; they are demanding miracles, because they cannot believe in God without miracles. And this is because they cannot believe in God without miracles that they are said to be disbelievers.
Excuse me bro, are you talking on that people behalf now?, well, Allah told us many times that those disbelievers asked ?Why Allah didn?t send down a miracle to Mohammad??, the same exact question you asked, sorry bro I?m no fool
Now, let?s go back to the story with Moses, Pharaoh and his magicians.
There are 2 episodes to this story- Moses talks to Pharaoh
- Moses talks to the magicians Pharaoh has gathered
Let?s see how the first episode is narrated in 2 different places in the Quran
He said ?So who is the lord of you both O Moses??
He said ?Our Lord is the One who gave everything its creation, then guided.?
He said ?What then has happened to the previous generations??
He said ?It?s knowledge is with my Lord, in a record. My Lord does not err or forget.?
The One who made for you the Earth habitable and He made ways for you in it, and He brought down water from the sky, so We brought out with it pairs of vegetation of all types.
Eat and raise your livestock, in that are signs for those of thought.
From it We created you and in it We return you, and from it We bring you out another time.
And We showed him Our signs, all of them, but he denied and refused.
He said ?Have you come to us to take us out of our land with your magic O Moses??Then after them We sent Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his leaders. But they did wrong in them, so see how is the end of the corrupters.
And Moses said ?O Pharaoh, I am a messenger from the Lord of the worlds.?
?It is not proper for me to say about God except the truth; I have come to you with proof from your Lord. So send with me the Children of Israel.?
He said ?If you have come with a sign then bring it, if you are of the truthful??
He threw down his staff and it manifested into a serpent.
And he drew out his hand, and it became pure white for the onlookers.
The commanders from among the people of Pharaoh said ?This is a knowledgeable magician!?
?He wishes to drive you out of your land; what is your command??In the first account (), Moses explains to Pharaoh all the signs of the universes. He shows the signs of God exactly in the same way as in the Quran.
So?
Please bro, I need something that makes sense
And, in the second account (), Moses turns his staff into a serpent, and show his hand white.
Again, So?
Well bro the two accounts happened on the same day on the same meeting why you want to isolate the two?
My understanding is that the second account is a metaphor of the first one. It means that the discourse of Moses was so convincing that it was as if he has turned a staff into a serpent.
WT..?, Ok bro if that is what you feel comfortable with, please be my guest to believe it, but if you ask me to believe it, I won?t
If you want to check the dictionary, you will see that a white hand (yad baida) can mean an argument very clear, a demonstrating, a demonstrated argument, an allegation, or an evidence.
Now I needed this laugh bro, thanks, I never heard of such in Arabic
Moreover, the magicians were not what we call today magicians. They were rather rhetoricians. The notion of magic has evolved.
So Allah call them magicians and you don?t want to believe that?
Bro can you count all the things Allah said and you refuse to accept it and following your man made god instead?
Salam
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According to you, God has helped Moses through miracles. However, God has refused to do the same to Muhammad.
My question is why did God change his way?Because mankind was changed. At the time of Muhammad, mankind was at the transition from teen age to youth.
Maybe, but this is only your opinion. Do you have a proof ?
If demanding for miracle is an absolute sign of disbelievers, how come that a Prophet like Muhammad longed for a miracle?
Could you quote the verses who said that Muhammad longed for a miracle ?
I have not managed to find them.And, last question you say the Quran is a miracle.
Could you explain what you mean ?Here is a definition of the word miracle
An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God
http//www.thefreedictionary.com/miracleCould you explain why the Quran should be held as a miracle ?
Please remember the English word miracle is no more that the translation of the Arabic word ayat, whose core meaning is sign.
Peace
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My first question was
- Why did God not help Muhammad by some magical trick, like pulling a rabbit out of an empty hat, or something like that ?
I am sorry, but you have not really responded to it.
As I told you bro, you can?t ask me a question about God and seek answer according to my opinion, what I did with you is show you how Allah answered those who asked the same question you asked
So if Allah didn?t answer your question I will have no answer because I don?t speak on Allah?s behalf, nor I take any human claiming to do as such while His words are in front of me in a book called Quran
As a side note, the people who are said to be disbelievers in the verses who are quoted are not simply asking a question ; they are demanding miracles, because they cannot believe in God without miracles. And this is because they cannot believe in God without miracles that they are said to be disbelievers.
Excuse me bro, are you talking on that people behalf now?, well, Allah told us many times that those disbelievers asked ?Why Allah didn?t send down a miracle to Mohammad??, the same exact question you asked, sorry bro I?m no fool
I am sorry, Ahmed, but you are playing with words.
The disbelievers are not simply asking a question, they are requesting a miracle, claiming that, if they see such a miracle, they will believe.
But this is not my stance. I do not need miracles to believe.According to you, God has helped Moses through miracles. However, God has refused to do the same to Muhammad.
God refused to do a sort of magical miracle with Mohammad however He clearly told us that He sent him another sort of miracle, it is called Quran, now please answer Allah question to you
Why do you think the Quran is a miracle?
(See the details of my question in my post to prashant_kumar above)Allah is asking you bro
?Isn?t the Quran enough of a sign to you??
There are plenty of signs of God, in the nature, in the fate of past nations, etc , and the Quran details them.
My question is why did God change his way ?
Again I don?t talk on His behalf bro, if that is what He wants to do then it is sweet with me
The difference between you and me is that you stick to the letter of the text, whereas I try to ponder over it.
Maybe I sometimes do mistakes while pondering on the Quran, but, for me, this is an obligation, and, in some way, mistakes are inevitable in the path to truth.My response to this question is that God has not changed his way,
How do you know that?
Because of verses like this
This is the way of those whom We sent before you of Our messengers. And you will not find any change in Our way.
Moreover, the magicians were not what we call today magicians. They were rather rhetoricians. The notion of magic has evolved.
So Allah call them magicians and you don?t want to believe that?
Salam
As I have tried to explain you with many quotes, in ancient times, the magicians were not people who pulled a rabbit out of a hat ; they were rhetoricians or sophists. The word sihr means deceitful speech, not magic.
Peace
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I am sorry, Ahmed, but you are playing with words.
The disbelievers are not simply asking a question, they are requesting a miracle, claiming that, if they see such a miracle, they will believe.
But this is not my stance. I do not need miracles to believe.Dear brother, I don?t play with words, I think there are many who do this here but me, I understand your stance, now let me ask you, are you asking the question on those disbelievers behalf?
The disbelievers never said in these verses that I posted that they will believe if they see a miracle, they only wondered why Allah didn?t send a miracle to him
While the fact of the matter He did sent one and it is called Quran
Why do you think the Quran is a miracle?
Becuase it is not made by humans
For example, you as a human is a miracle and any thing that Allah created is a miracle because it was created from absolutely noting
It is a miracle in its guidance, its accuracy, its vocabularies, its style, uts rhythms, its wisdom, its fairness, its integrity and its divinity; I can keep adding to this list for long time, I have never seen a book as such hence it has to be a miracle
(See the details of my question in my post to prashant_kumar above)
I did, thanks
There are plenty of signs of God, in the nature, in the fate of past nations, etc , and the Quran details them.
Exactly, anything from God is a sign including the Quran, hence the Quran is a sign sent down to Mohammad
The difference between you and me is that you stick to the letter of the text, whereas I try to ponder over it.
Exactly, this does not mean that I?m dumb bum though, I know my IQ very well, in fact what I?m doing is the smartest way to deal with the Quran, because I don?t play with fire otherwise it will touch me and I really don?t want this to happen, therefore for me to have an argument on my JD I found that I will stick to Allah words as literal as possible unless He says otherwise or His words clearly and logically indicates that it is a metaphor, like 2439-40 for example, on my JD I will have an argument with our 100% Fair God, but you don?t because He simply can tell you "I didn?t mean that, my words were clear", and clear means literal for me.
My stance is very logical indeed because why you conclude one metaphor for a verse?, if you apply your own metaphors then anyone can apply theirs, but if you apply the literal meaning then we have only one meaning, see
Maybe I sometimes do mistakes while pondering on the Quran, but, for me, this is an obligation, and, in some way, mistakes are inevitable in the path to truth.
Me too, but to insist on mistakes is unquranic, for example sister Samia exposed my ignorance regarding the word Bushra, while I know that she has strange attitude towards me I quickly conceded my mistake, there is nothing wrong here rather I see the act more noble than to show arrogance after compelling Quran evidences were provided, she only managed to do that when she spoke literal Quran, therefore our understanding (me and her) must be the same. It is the difficulty of the concession act that make most here arrogant but I can assure you that I?m not one of those because I don?t fear the people, I only fear Allah and I can?t insist on a mistake motivated by arrogance while knowing that Allah does not like the arrogant and the matter in hand is His words from the first place.
Because of verses like this
This is the way of those whom We sent before you of Our messengers. And you will not find any change in Our way.
Brother why you want to take this verse as a global thing on Allah?, this verse is only talking about sending messengers to humanity and what normally happens to them from the people they were sent to, sunnah Allah that will not change was specifically regarding the affairs of our guidance via messengers, not regarding all His other laws like turning a staff into a snake
Bro this is a very weak argument indeed,
As I have tried to explain you with many quotes, in ancient times, the magicians were not people who pulled a rabbit out of a hat ;
Fine, but you are talking about other sort of magicians then
Bro we are talking about the magicians mentioned in the Quran ?not in your fantasy world of ancient days?, sorry, the magicians of the Quran were l;ike those magicians who pull rabbits out of the hat because what they did is making their staffs turns into moving objects,
Bro, I told you, I?m no fool
Now can I ask you, who is playing with the words exactly?
they were rhetoricians or sophists. The word sihr means deceitful speech, not magic.
Peace
LOL mate
Please bro don?t play with Allah words, if you play with Allah words you indeed are playing with fire
Thanks bro
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Peace JM
they were rhetoricians or sophists. The word sihr means deceitful speech, not magic.
Let?s apply the above by you to the following verses
14- This is the fire which you used to give the lie to.
15- Is it magic then or do you not see?
(14)
(15)-> The verses is talking about the moment the hell dwellers will see Hell for the first time , Allah is mocking them and telling them ? This is the fire which you used to give the lie to.? , then He added ? Is it magic then or do you not see??
-> Now let?s use your logic instead of the clear cut obvious logic, if magic = deceitful speech then 5215 should be read ? Is it deceitful speech then or do you not see??, hmmmmm, mate it does not make sense, how the hell, the hell is described as deceitful speech?, hmmmm, I guess it sounds more logical to be described as an illusion (magic)?, well let?s fine tune it bro
see is used with eyes
hear is used with ears
ok 5215 should be as follow then
15- Is it deceitful speech then or do you not hear?
(manipulated by JM and further manipulated by Ahmed Bahgat)Now bro, I guess you are taking me with you to the hell fire, sorry I mean the deceitful speech
Salam bro
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I am sorry, Ahmed, but you are playing with words.
The disbelievers are not simply asking a question, they are requesting a miracle, claiming that, if they see such a miracle, they will believe.
But this is not my stance. I do not need miracles to believe.Dear brother, I don?t play with words, I think there are many who do this here but me, I understand your stance, now let me ask you, are you asking the question on those disbelievers behalf?
The disbelievers never said in these verses that I posted that they will believe if they see a miracle, they only wondered why Allah didn?t send a miracle to him
And they swore by God using their strongest oaths; that if a sign came to them they would believe in it.
While the fact of the matter He did sent one and it is called Quran
Why do you think the Quran is a miracle?
Becuase it is not made by humans
For example, you as a human is a miracle and any thing that Allah created is a miracle because it was created from absolutely noting
It is a miracle in its guidance, its accuracy, its vocabularies, its style, uts rhythms, its wisdom, its fairness, its integrity and its divinity; I can keep adding to this list for long time, I have never seen a book as such hence it has to be a miracle
OK.
But where is the supernatural event here ?
Is it a supernatural event that I have been created from nothing ?(See the details of my question in my post to prashant_kumar above)
I did, thanks
There are plenty of signs of God, in the nature, in the fate of past nations, etc , and the Quran details them.
Exactly, anything from God is a sign including the Quran, hence the Quran is a sign sent down to Mohammad
OK.
The difference between you and me is that you stick to the letter of the text, whereas I try to ponder over it.
Exactly, this does not mean that I?m dumb bum though, I know my IQ very well, in fact what I?m doing is the smartest way to deal with the Quran, because I don?t play with fire otherwise it will touch me and I really don?t want this to happen, therefore for me to have an argument on my JD I found that I will stick to Allah words as literal as possible unless He says otherwise or His words clearly and logically indicates that it is a metaphor, like 2439-40 for example, on my JD I will have an argument with our 100% Fair God, but you don?t because He simply can tell you "I didn?t mean that, my words were clear", and clear means literal for me.
My stance is very logical indeed because why you conclude one metaphor for a verse?, if you apply your own metaphors then anyone can apply theirs, but if you apply the literal meaning then we have only one meaning, see
Sticking to literal meanings like you do give rise to contradictions, or at least inconsistencies.
Hence the need to get the big picture, and then, read the message with it in mind.Maybe I sometimes do mistakes while pondering on the Quran, but, for me, this is an obligation, and, in some way, mistakes are inevitable in the path to truth.
Me too, but to insist on mistakes is unquranic, for example sister Samia exposed my ignorance regarding the word Bushra, while I know that she has strange attitude towards me I quickly conceded my mistake, there is nothing wrong here rather I see the act more noble than to show arrogance after compelling Quran evidences were provided, she only managed to do that when she spoke literal Quran, therefore our understanding (me and her) must be the same. It is the difficulty of the concession act that make most here arrogant but I can assure you that I?m not one of those because I don?t fear the people, I only fear Allah and I can?t insist on a mistake motivated by arrogance while knowing that Allah does not like the arrogant and the matter in hand is His words from the first place.
Sorry to say you that, but you are arrogant when you believe that the way you understand the Quran is the only possible one, and that anyone who does not understand it like you is a disbeliever.
However, it is true that, when you make a mistake, you acknowledge it.Because of verses like this
This is the way of those whom We sent before you of Our messengers. And you will not find any change in Our way.
Brother why you want to take this verse as a global thing on Allah?, this verse is only talking about sending messengers to humanity and what normally happens to them from the people they were sent to, sunnah Allah that will not change was specifically regarding the affairs of our guidance via messengers, not regarding all His other laws like turning a staff into a snake
Bro this is a very weak argument indeed,
Yes, I think that this verse is a global thing on Allah.
And, as you say, it entails that Allah does not change anything regarding the affair of guidance via messengers, and especially, he does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).You will not find any change in God?s way, and you will not find any bypass to God?s way.
As I have tried to explain you with many quotes, in ancient times, the magicians were not people who pulled a rabbit out of a hat ;
Fine, but you are talking about other sort of magicians then
Yes
Bro we are talking about the magicians mentioned in the Quran ?not in your fantasy world of ancient days?,
The real fantasy is to believe that, in the ancient days the people though like us today.
sorry, the magicians of the Quran were l;ike those magicians who pull rabbits out of the hat because what they did is making their staffs turns into moving objects,
This is circular argument.
Peace JM
they were rhetoricians or sophists. The word sihr means deceitful speech, not magic.
-> The verses is talking about the moment the hell dwellers will see Hell for the first time , Allah is mocking them and telling them ? This is the fire which you used to give the lie to.? , then He added ? Is it magic then or do you not see??
-> Now let?s use your logic instead of the clear cut obvious logic, if magic = deceitful speech then 5215 should be read ? Is it deceitful speech then or do you not see??, hmmmmm, mate it does not make sense, how the hell, the hell is described as deceitful speech?, hmmmm, I guess it sounds more logical to be described as an illusion (magic)?, well let?s fine tune it bro
And when Our clear revelations were recited to them, they said ?This is but a man who wants to turn you away from what your parents were worshiping.? And they also said ?This is nothing but a fabricated lie.? And those who disbelieved say of the truth when it has come to them ?This is nothing but evident magic!?
He is the One who created the heavens and Earth in six days, and His throne was upon the water, and to test who from amongst you works the best. And when you Say ?You will be resurrected after death.? those who rejected will Say ?This is but clear magic!?
In these verses, it is clear that sihr does not mean magic, but rather deceitful speech.
The Quran states that the disbelievers will go to hell, and the disbelievers answer that the Quran is deceitful speech.
So, the day the disbelievers are sent to hell, God shows them that it is what they have considered to be lies and deceitful speech is real ().Peace
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And they swore by God using their strongest oaths; that if a sign came to them they would believe in it.
Peace bro
Mate it says ?Belive in it?, NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH,
All they said that they will believe in the miracle
OK.
But where is the supernatural event here ?
Is it a supernatural event that I have been created from nothing ?For humans of course it is for Allah of course it is not
Sticking to literal meanings like you do give rise to contradictions, or at least inconsistencies.
Prove it to me
ONE POINT AT A TIME PLEASE, NO MASSES
Hence the need to get the big picture, and then, read the message with it in mind.
You can achieve the exact same with the literal understanding
Sorry to say you that, but you are arrogant when you believe that the way you understand the Quran is the only possible one, and that anyone who does not understand it like you is a disbeliever.
Well I always accommodate for any verse that can accept more than one meaning, in fact I know of many that can be more than one meaning as long as the additional meanings don?t create contradictions in the Quran
It is your fantasy warld meanings hat are causing zillions of contradictions in the Quran, haven?t you read the last one about 5215?
However, it is true that, when you make a mistake, you acknowledge it.
Exactly and I hope everyone does the same, I do this always in my day to day life but Ii can assure you that my mistakes are very little
Yes, I think that this verse is a global thing on Allah.
And, as you say, it entails that Allah does not change anything regarding the affair of guidance via messengers, and especially, he does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).You will not find any change in God?s way, and you will not find any bypass to God?s way.
Fine, however if I take it that way
Then why you think that changing a staff into a snake is not God?s way?
Well God?s way according to Him, not to you or us
Well Allah told us 35 times that He is able to do anything
Would you consider the act done as ?Anything??, I,E, ?changing anything to anything?, bear in mind the act is done by Allah not by Moses
Fine, but you are talking about other sort of magicians then
Yes
Then what is your point?
The real fantasy is to believe that, in the ancient days the people though like us today.
I don?t really know what you mean by that we are not comparing every thing between us and them bro, we only looking at the magic issue, please don?t confuse the subject
Now as far as I know magic since been inventetd is the same really, just illusions, you see many magicians now days bro, right
I?m not saying they used to wear the same cloths as the old ones, LOL, bro they do the same tricks
So where I?m fantasised exactly?
This is circular argument.
Bro, I hate that really, can you please elaborate and prove your above 4 words?
And when Our clear revelations were recited to them, they said ?This is but a man who wants to turn you away from what your parents were worshiping.? And they also said ?This is nothing but a fabricated lie.? And those who disbelieved say of the truth when it has come to them ?This is nothing but evident magic!?
He is the One who created the heavens and Earth in six days, and His throne was upon the water, and to test who from amongst you works the best. And when you Say ?You will be resurrected after death.? those who rejected will Say ?This is but clear magic!?
In these verses, it is clear that sihr does not mean magic, but rather deceitful speech.
Well, I know where you got confused bro,
What they meant above that, what Mohammad was saying were illusions because they accused him of being illusional, here it is bro
We know best why it is they listen, when they listen to thee; and when they meet in private conference, behold, the wicked say Ye follow none other than a man bewitched!
(47)
Or (why is not) treasure thrown down unto him, or why hath he not a paradise from whence to eat? And the evil-doers say Ye are but following a man bewitched.
(
-> See, they thought Mohammad was bewitched ?Mashura?, hence they accused him the the Quran is ?Sihr?, just an illusion as is not from God
The Quran states that the disbelievers will go to hell, and the disbelievers answer that the Quran is deceitful speech.
Sorry that was total BS, because the description was referring to THE HELL ?Tobsiron?, not to the Quran
I?m no fool bro whatever you try hard to twist
So, the day the disbelievers are sent to hell, God shows them that it is what they have considered to be lies and deceitful speech is real ().
Haha, bro, the verse is clearly saying the Allah is telling them ABOUT HELL, is it Sihr or that they don?t SEE, the Quran has noting to do with this verse
What you said is total rubbish and sorry makes no sense to a child, so please don?t waste my time with non sense, I want logical arguments otherwise discussing issues with you won?t be any fun really
Take care