Is it a fictitious story?

unknownuser

What stopped us from sending the miracles is that the previous generations have rejected them. For example, we showed Thamoud the camel, a profound (miracle), but they transgressed against it. We sent the miracles only to instill reverence.

1759 And what stopped Us from sending the signs except that the previous people disbelieved in them. And We sent to Thamud the camel with foresight, but they did her wrong. And We do not send the signs except to make them fearful.

unknownuser

peace

interesting point which reminds me of something...

Otherwise, why should Muhammad, being a Prophet, long for such miracles?

When the miracles/ayahs are being narrated to Muhammad, is he thinking 'hmm these miracles must be allegories'

unknownuser

Peace Ahmed,

Peace mate

First, let me say you that, even though I strongly disagree with your interpretations, I greatly respect your energy and generousness.

Thanks bro, while I don?t agree with you as well, I like you as a person

My first question was

Why did God not help Muhammad by some magical trick, like pulling a rabbit out of an empty hat, or something like that ?

I am sorry, but you have not really responded to it.

As I told you bro, you can?t ask me a question about God and seek answer according to my opinion, what I did with you is show you how Allah answered those who asked the same question you asked

So if Allah didn?t answer your question I will have no answer because I don?t speak on Allah?s behalf, nor I take any human claiming to do as such while His words are in front of me in a book called Quran

According to you, God has helped Moses through miracles. However, God has refused to do the same to Muhammad.

God refused to do a sort of magical miracle with Mohammad however He clearly told us that He sent him another sort of miracle, it is called Quran, now please answer Allah question to you

Allah is asking you bro

?Isn?t the Quran enough of a sign to you??

My question is why did God change his way ?

Again I don?t talk on His behalf bro, if that is what He wants to do then it is sweet with me

My response to this question is that God has not changed his way,

How do you know that?

and that, the verses where you see He helps Moses through miracles have to be understood metaphorically.

Allah never said the verses are metaphor, the walkthrough clearly proves that it was real

What is yours?

Mine of what?

As a side note, the people who are said to be disbelievers in the verses who are quoted are not simply asking a question ; they are demanding miracles, because they cannot believe in God without miracles. And this is because they cannot believe in God without miracles that they are said to be disbelievers.

Excuse me bro, are you talking on that people behalf now?, well, Allah told us many times that those disbelievers asked ?Why Allah didn?t send down a miracle to Mohammad??, the same exact question you asked, sorry bro I?m no fool

Now, let?s go back to the story with Moses, Pharaoh and his magicians.
There are 2 episodes to this story

Moses talks to Pharaoh
Moses talks to the magicians Pharaoh has gathered

Let?s see how the first episode is narrated in 2 different places in the Quran

He said ?So who is the lord of you both O Moses??
He said ?Our Lord is the One who gave everything its creation, then guided.?
He said ?What then has happened to the previous generations??
He said ?It?s knowledge is with my Lord, in a record. My Lord does not err or forget.?
The One who made for you the Earth habitable and He made ways for you in it, and He brought down water from the sky, so We brought out with it pairs of vegetation of all types.
Eat and raise your livestock, in that are signs for those of thought.
From it We created you and in it We return you, and from it We bring you out another time.
And We showed him Our signs, all of them, but he denied and refused.
He said ?Have you come to us to take us out of our land with your magic O Moses??

Then after them We sent Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his leaders. But they did wrong in them, so see how is the end of the corrupters.
And Moses said ?O Pharaoh, I am a messenger from the Lord of the worlds.?
?It is not proper for me to say about God except the truth; I have come to you with proof from your Lord. So send with me the Children of Israel.?
He said ?If you have come with a sign then bring it, if you are of the truthful??
He threw down his staff and it manifested into a serpent.
And he drew out his hand, and it became pure white for the onlookers.
The commanders from among the people of Pharaoh said ?This is a knowledgeable magician!?
?He wishes to drive you out of your land; what is your command??

In the first account (), Moses explains to Pharaoh all the signs of the universes. He shows the signs of God exactly in the same way as in the Quran.

So?

Please bro, I need something that makes sense

And, in the second account (), Moses turns his staff into a serpent, and show his hand white.

Again, So?

Well bro the two accounts happened on the same day on the same meeting why you want to isolate the two?

My understanding is that the second account is a metaphor of the first one. It means that the discourse of Moses was so convincing that it was as if he has turned a staff into a serpent.

WT..?, Ok bro if that is what you feel comfortable with, please be my guest to believe it, but if you ask me to believe it, I won?t

If you want to check the dictionary, you will see that a white hand (yad baida) can mean an argument very clear, a demonstrating, a demonstrated argument, an allegation, or an evidence.

Now I needed this laugh bro, thanks, I never heard of such in Arabic

Moreover, the magicians were not what we call today magicians. They were rather rhetoricians. The notion of magic has evolved.

So Allah call them magicians and you don?t want to believe that?

Bro can you count all the things Allah said and you refuse to accept it and following your man made god instead?

Salam

wildguest1956

According to you, God has helped Moses through miracles. However, God has refused to do the same to Muhammad.
My question is why did God change his way?

Because mankind was changed. At the time of Muhammad, mankind was at the transition from teen age to youth.

Maybe, but this is only your opinion. Do you have a proof ?

If demanding for miracle is an absolute sign of disbelievers, how come that a Prophet like Muhammad longed for a miracle?

Could you quote the verses who said that Muhammad longed for a miracle ?
I have not managed to find them.

And, last question you say the Quran is a miracle.
Could you explain what you mean ?

Here is a definition of the word miracle

An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God
http//www.thefreedictionary.com/miracle

Could you explain why the Quran should be held as a miracle ?

Please remember the English word miracle is no more that the translation of the Arabic word ayat, whose core meaning is sign.

Peace

wildguest1956

My first question was

Why did God not help Muhammad by some magical trick, like pulling a rabbit out of an empty hat, or something like that ?

I am sorry, but you have not really responded to it.

As I told you bro, you can?t ask me a question about God and seek answer according to my opinion, what I did with you is show you how Allah answered those who asked the same question you asked

So if Allah didn?t answer your question I will have no answer because I don?t speak on Allah?s behalf, nor I take any human claiming to do as such while His words are in front of me in a book called Quran

As a side note, the people who are said to be disbelievers in the verses who are quoted are not simply asking a question ; they are demanding miracles, because they cannot believe in God without miracles. And this is because they cannot believe in God without miracles that they are said to be disbelievers.

Excuse me bro, are you talking on that people behalf now?, well, Allah told us many times that those disbelievers asked ?Why Allah didn?t send down a miracle to Mohammad??, the same exact question you asked, sorry bro I?m no fool

I am sorry, Ahmed, but you are playing with words.
The disbelievers are not simply asking a question, they are requesting a miracle, claiming that, if they see such a miracle, they will believe.
But this is not my stance. I do not need miracles to believe.

According to you, God has helped Moses through miracles. However, God has refused to do the same to Muhammad.

God refused to do a sort of magical miracle with Mohammad however He clearly told us that He sent him another sort of miracle, it is called Quran, now please answer Allah question to you

Why do you think the Quran is a miracle?
(See the details of my question in my post to prashant_kumar above)

Allah is asking you bro

?Isn?t the Quran enough of a sign to you??

There are plenty of signs of God, in the nature, in the fate of past nations, etc , and the Quran details them.

My question is why did God change his way ?

Again I don?t talk on His behalf bro, if that is what He wants to do then it is sweet with me

The difference between you and me is that you stick to the letter of the text, whereas I try to ponder over it.
Maybe I sometimes do mistakes while pondering on the Quran, but, for me, this is an obligation, and, in some way, mistakes are inevitable in the path to truth.

My response to this question is that God has not changed his way,

How do you know that?

Because of verses like this

This is the way of those whom We sent before you of Our messengers. And you will not find any change in Our way.

Moreover, the magicians were not what we call today magicians. They were rather rhetoricians. The notion of magic has evolved.

So Allah call them magicians and you don?t want to believe that?

Salam

As I have tried to explain you with many quotes, in ancient times, the magicians were not people who pulled a rabbit out of a hat ; they were rhetoricians or sophists. The word sihr means deceitful speech, not magic.

Peace

unknownuser

I am sorry, Ahmed, but you are playing with words.

The disbelievers are not simply asking a question, they are requesting a miracle, claiming that, if they see such a miracle, they will believe.
But this is not my stance. I do not need miracles to believe.

Dear brother, I don?t play with words, I think there are many who do this here but me, I understand your stance, now let me ask you, are you asking the question on those disbelievers behalf?

The disbelievers never said in these verses that I posted that they will believe if they see a miracle, they only wondered why Allah didn?t send a miracle to him

While the fact of the matter He did sent one and it is called Quran

Why do you think the Quran is a miracle?

Becuase it is not made by humans

For example, you as a human is a miracle and any thing that Allah created is a miracle because it was created from absolutely noting

It is a miracle in its guidance, its accuracy, its vocabularies, its style, uts rhythms, its wisdom, its fairness, its integrity and its divinity; I can keep adding to this list for long time, I have never seen a book as such hence it has to be a miracle

(See the details of my question in my post to prashant_kumar above)

I did, thanks

There are plenty of signs of God, in the nature, in the fate of past nations, etc , and the Quran details them.

Exactly, anything from God is a sign including the Quran, hence the Quran is a sign sent down to Mohammad

The difference between you and me is that you stick to the letter of the text, whereas I try to ponder over it.

Exactly, this does not mean that I?m dumb bum though, I know my IQ very well, in fact what I?m doing is the smartest way to deal with the Quran, because I don?t play with fire otherwise it will touch me and I really don?t want this to happen, therefore for me to have an argument on my JD I found that I will stick to Allah words as literal as possible unless He says otherwise or His words clearly and logically indicates that it is a metaphor, like 2439-40 for example, on my JD I will have an argument with our 100% Fair God, but you don?t because He simply can tell you "I didn?t mean that, my words were clear", and clear means literal for me.

My stance is very logical indeed because why you conclude one metaphor for a verse?, if you apply your own metaphors then anyone can apply theirs, but if you apply the literal meaning then we have only one meaning, see

Maybe I sometimes do mistakes while pondering on the Quran, but, for me, this is an obligation, and, in some way, mistakes are inevitable in the path to truth.

Me too, but to insist on mistakes is unquranic, for example sister Samia exposed my ignorance regarding the word Bushra, while I know that she has strange attitude towards me I quickly conceded my mistake, there is nothing wrong here rather I see the act more noble than to show arrogance after compelling Quran evidences were provided, she only managed to do that when she spoke literal Quran, therefore our understanding (me and her) must be the same. It is the difficulty of the concession act that make most here arrogant but I can assure you that I?m not one of those because I don?t fear the people, I only fear Allah and I can?t insist on a mistake motivated by arrogance while knowing that Allah does not like the arrogant and the matter in hand is His words from the first place.

Because of verses like this

This is the way of those whom We sent before you of Our messengers. And you will not find any change in Our way.

Brother why you want to take this verse as a global thing on Allah?, this verse is only talking about sending messengers to humanity and what normally happens to them from the people they were sent to, sunnah Allah that will not change was specifically regarding the affairs of our guidance via messengers, not regarding all His other laws like turning a staff into a snake

Bro this is a very weak argument indeed,

As I have tried to explain you with many quotes, in ancient times, the magicians were not people who pulled a rabbit out of a hat ;

Fine, but you are talking about other sort of magicians then

Bro we are talking about the magicians mentioned in the Quran ?not in your fantasy world of ancient days?, sorry, the magicians of the Quran were l;ike those magicians who pull rabbits out of the hat because what they did is making their staffs turns into moving objects,

Bro, I told you, I?m no fool

Now can I ask you, who is playing with the words exactly?

they were rhetoricians or sophists. The word sihr means deceitful speech, not magic.

Peace

LOL mate

Please bro don?t play with Allah words, if you play with Allah words you indeed are playing with fire

Thanks bro

unknownuser

Peace JM

they were rhetoricians or sophists. The word sihr means deceitful speech, not magic.

Let?s apply the above by you to the following verses

14- This is the fire which you used to give the lie to.

15- Is it magic then or do you not see?

(14)
(15)

-> The verses is talking about the moment the hell dwellers will see Hell for the first time , Allah is mocking them and telling them ? This is the fire which you used to give the lie to.? , then He added ? Is it magic then or do you not see??

-> Now let?s use your logic instead of the clear cut obvious logic, if magic = deceitful speech then 5215 should be read ? Is it deceitful speech then or do you not see??, hmmmmm, mate it does not make sense, how the hell, the hell is described as deceitful speech?, hmmmm, I guess it sounds more logical to be described as an illusion (magic)?, well let?s fine tune it bro

see is used with eyes

hear is used with ears

ok 5215 should be as follow then

15- Is it deceitful speech then or do you not hear?
(manipulated by JM and further manipulated by Ahmed Bahgat)

Now bro, I guess you are taking me with you to the hell fire, sorry I mean the deceitful speech

Salam bro

wildguest1956

I am sorry, Ahmed, but you are playing with words.

The disbelievers are not simply asking a question, they are requesting a miracle, claiming that, if they see such a miracle, they will believe.
But this is not my stance. I do not need miracles to believe.

Dear brother, I don?t play with words, I think there are many who do this here but me, I understand your stance, now let me ask you, are you asking the question on those disbelievers behalf?

The disbelievers never said in these verses that I posted that they will believe if they see a miracle, they only wondered why Allah didn?t send a miracle to him

And they swore by God using their strongest oaths; that if a sign came to them they would believe in it.

While the fact of the matter He did sent one and it is called Quran

Why do you think the Quran is a miracle?

Becuase it is not made by humans

For example, you as a human is a miracle and any thing that Allah created is a miracle because it was created from absolutely noting

It is a miracle in its guidance, its accuracy, its vocabularies, its style, uts rhythms, its wisdom, its fairness, its integrity and its divinity; I can keep adding to this list for long time, I have never seen a book as such hence it has to be a miracle

OK.
But where is the supernatural event here ?
Is it a supernatural event that I have been created from nothing ?

(See the details of my question in my post to prashant_kumar above)

I did, thanks

There are plenty of signs of God, in the nature, in the fate of past nations, etc , and the Quran details them.

Exactly, anything from God is a sign including the Quran, hence the Quran is a sign sent down to Mohammad

OK.

The difference between you and me is that you stick to the letter of the text, whereas I try to ponder over it.

Exactly, this does not mean that I?m dumb bum though, I know my IQ very well, in fact what I?m doing is the smartest way to deal with the Quran, because I don?t play with fire otherwise it will touch me and I really don?t want this to happen, therefore for me to have an argument on my JD I found that I will stick to Allah words as literal as possible unless He says otherwise or His words clearly and logically indicates that it is a metaphor, like 2439-40 for example, on my JD I will have an argument with our 100% Fair God, but you don?t because He simply can tell you "I didn?t mean that, my words were clear", and clear means literal for me.

My stance is very logical indeed because why you conclude one metaphor for a verse?, if you apply your own metaphors then anyone can apply theirs, but if you apply the literal meaning then we have only one meaning, see

Sticking to literal meanings like you do give rise to contradictions, or at least inconsistencies.
Hence the need to get the big picture, and then, read the message with it in mind.

Maybe I sometimes do mistakes while pondering on the Quran, but, for me, this is an obligation, and, in some way, mistakes are inevitable in the path to truth.

Me too, but to insist on mistakes is unquranic, for example sister Samia exposed my ignorance regarding the word Bushra, while I know that she has strange attitude towards me I quickly conceded my mistake, there is nothing wrong here rather I see the act more noble than to show arrogance after compelling Quran evidences were provided, she only managed to do that when she spoke literal Quran, therefore our understanding (me and her) must be the same. It is the difficulty of the concession act that make most here arrogant but I can assure you that I?m not one of those because I don?t fear the people, I only fear Allah and I can?t insist on a mistake motivated by arrogance while knowing that Allah does not like the arrogant and the matter in hand is His words from the first place.

Sorry to say you that, but you are arrogant when you believe that the way you understand the Quran is the only possible one, and that anyone who does not understand it like you is a disbeliever.
However, it is true that, when you make a mistake, you acknowledge it.

Because of verses like this

This is the way of those whom We sent before you of Our messengers. And you will not find any change in Our way.

Brother why you want to take this verse as a global thing on Allah?, this verse is only talking about sending messengers to humanity and what normally happens to them from the people they were sent to, sunnah Allah that will not change was specifically regarding the affairs of our guidance via messengers, not regarding all His other laws like turning a staff into a snake

Bro this is a very weak argument indeed,

Yes, I think that this verse is a global thing on Allah.
And, as you say, it entails that Allah does not change anything regarding the affair of guidance via messengers, and especially, he does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).

You will not find any change in God?s way, and you will not find any bypass to God?s way.

As I have tried to explain you with many quotes, in ancient times, the magicians were not people who pulled a rabbit out of a hat ;

Fine, but you are talking about other sort of magicians then

Yes

Bro we are talking about the magicians mentioned in the Quran ?not in your fantasy world of ancient days?,

The real fantasy is to believe that, in the ancient days the people though like us today.

sorry, the magicians of the Quran were l;ike those magicians who pull rabbits out of the hat because what they did is making their staffs turns into moving objects,

This is circular argument.

Peace JM

they were rhetoricians or sophists. The word sihr means deceitful speech, not magic.

-> The verses is talking about the moment the hell dwellers will see Hell for the first time , Allah is mocking them and telling them ? This is the fire which you used to give the lie to.? , then He added ? Is it magic then or do you not see??

-> Now let?s use your logic instead of the clear cut obvious logic, if magic = deceitful speech then 5215 should be read ? Is it deceitful speech then or do you not see??, hmmmmm, mate it does not make sense, how the hell, the hell is described as deceitful speech?, hmmmm, I guess it sounds more logical to be described as an illusion (magic)?, well let?s fine tune it bro

And when Our clear revelations were recited to them, they said ?This is but a man who wants to turn you away from what your parents were worshiping.? And they also said ?This is nothing but a fabricated lie.? And those who disbelieved say of the truth when it has come to them ?This is nothing but evident magic!?

He is the One who created the heavens and Earth in six days, and His throne was upon the water, and to test who from amongst you works the best. And when you Say ?You will be resurrected after death.? those who rejected will Say ?This is but clear magic!?

In these verses, it is clear that sihr does not mean magic, but rather deceitful speech.
The Quran states that the disbelievers will go to hell, and the disbelievers answer that the Quran is deceitful speech.
So, the day the disbelievers are sent to hell, God shows them that it is what they have considered to be lies and deceitful speech is real ().

Peace

unknownuser

And they swore by God using their strongest oaths; that if a sign came to them they would believe in it.

Peace bro

Mate it says ?Belive in it?, NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH,

All they said that they will believe in the miracle

OK.
But where is the supernatural event here ?
Is it a supernatural event that I have been created from nothing ?

For humans of course it is for Allah of course it is not

Sticking to literal meanings like you do give rise to contradictions, or at least inconsistencies.

Prove it to me

ONE POINT AT A TIME PLEASE, NO MASSES

Hence the need to get the big picture, and then, read the message with it in mind.

You can achieve the exact same with the literal understanding

Sorry to say you that, but you are arrogant when you believe that the way you understand the Quran is the only possible one, and that anyone who does not understand it like you is a disbeliever.

Well I always accommodate for any verse that can accept more than one meaning, in fact I know of many that can be more than one meaning as long as the additional meanings don?t create contradictions in the Quran

It is your fantasy warld meanings hat are causing zillions of contradictions in the Quran, haven?t you read the last one about 5215?

However, it is true that, when you make a mistake, you acknowledge it.

Exactly and I hope everyone does the same, I do this always in my day to day life but Ii can assure you that my mistakes are very little

Yes, I think that this verse is a global thing on Allah.
And, as you say, it entails that Allah does not change anything regarding the affair of guidance via messengers, and especially, he does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).

You will not find any change in God?s way, and you will not find any bypass to God?s way.

Fine, however if I take it that way

Then why you think that changing a staff into a snake is not God?s way?

Well God?s way according to Him, not to you or us

Well Allah told us 35 times that He is able to do anything

Would you consider the act done as ?Anything??, I,E, ?changing anything to anything?, bear in mind the act is done by Allah not by Moses

Fine, but you are talking about other sort of magicians then

Yes

Then what is your point?

The real fantasy is to believe that, in the ancient days the people though like us today.

I don?t really know what you mean by that we are not comparing every thing between us and them bro, we only looking at the magic issue, please don?t confuse the subject

Now as far as I know magic since been inventetd is the same really, just illusions, you see many magicians now days bro, right

I?m not saying they used to wear the same cloths as the old ones, LOL, bro they do the same tricks

So where I?m fantasised exactly?

This is circular argument.

Bro, I hate that really, can you please elaborate and prove your above 4 words?

And when Our clear revelations were recited to them, they said ?This is but a man who wants to turn you away from what your parents were worshiping.? And they also said ?This is nothing but a fabricated lie.? And those who disbelieved say of the truth when it has come to them ?This is nothing but evident magic!?

He is the One who created the heavens and Earth in six days, and His throne was upon the water, and to test who from amongst you works the best. And when you Say ?You will be resurrected after death.? those who rejected will Say ?This is but clear magic!?

In these verses, it is clear that sihr does not mean magic, but rather deceitful speech.

Well, I know where you got confused bro,

What they meant above that, what Mohammad was saying were illusions because they accused him of being illusional, here it is bro

We know best why it is they listen, when they listen to thee; and when they meet in private conference, behold, the wicked say Ye follow none other than a man bewitched!

(47)

Or (why is not) treasure thrown down unto him, or why hath he not a paradise from whence to eat? And the evil-doers say Ye are but following a man bewitched.

(

-> See, they thought Mohammad was bewitched ?Mashura?, hence they accused him the the Quran is ?Sihr?, just an illusion as is not from God

The Quran states that the disbelievers will go to hell, and the disbelievers answer that the Quran is deceitful speech.

Sorry that was total BS, because the description was referring to THE HELL ?Tobsiron?, not to the Quran

I?m no fool bro whatever you try hard to twist

So, the day the disbelievers are sent to hell, God shows them that it is what they have considered to be lies and deceitful speech is real ().

Haha, bro, the verse is clearly saying the Allah is telling them ABOUT HELL, is it Sihr or that they don?t SEE, the Quran has noting to do with this verse

What you said is total rubbish and sorry makes no sense to a child, so please don?t waste my time with non sense, I want logical arguments otherwise discussing issues with you won?t be any fun really

Take care

prashant_kumar

Peace JM.

Maybe, but this is only your opinion. Do you have a proof?

It is only an opinion of mine. You asked the question ?why?. I just tried to give an explanation from the point of evolution of mankind.

Could you quote the verses who said that Muhammad longed for a miracle ?
I have not managed to find them.

I think, now, that my using the word ?longing? has not been appropriate. But I want to say that he had an expectation or something like that as was the case with changing of the Qibla.

635 And if their aversion has become too much for you, then perhaps you could make a tunnel in the Earth, or a ladder to the heavens, and bring them a sign. Had God willed, He would have gathered them to the guidance; so do not be of the ignorant ones.

This verse suggests that Muhammad had a wish to have a sign in pursuance with the demand of the people as expressed in the following verse.

637 And they said ?If only a sign was sent to him from his Lord!? Say ?God is able to send a sign, but most of them would not know.?

And, last question you say the Quran is a miracle.
Could you explain what you mean?
Here is a definition of the word miracle
An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

The Quran is a miracle to me by your definition of the term. I just can not establish the relation between Muhammad and the Quran from laws of nature. It is inexplicable to me. Was Muhammad a poet-philosopher? Muhammad?s life does not suggest this. The achievements of this person within only 23 years is also a miracle to me. No law of sociology, derived from general investigation in rise and fall of civilization, can explain this huge history. Is there any such example of a poet-philosopher?

In the chapter 28, the life of Moses is the main theme.

2848 But when the truth came to them from Us, they said ?If only he was given the same that was given to Moses!? Had they not rejected what was given to Moses before? They had said ?Two magicians assisting one another.? And they said ?We reject all these things.?

The people of Mecca wanted some sign from Muhammad similar to that of Moses. If revelation or demonstration of decisive arguments and the signs of Moses were not different in nature, the demand for similar sign makes no sense.

wildguest1956

And they swore by God using their strongest oaths; that if a sign came to them they would believe in it.

Peace bro

Mate it says ?Belive in it?, NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH,

All they said that they will believe in the miracle

This is bad faith, Ahmed.
If they believe it is a miracle, then it entails that they believe in Allah.
See the verses following .

OK.
But where is the supernatural event here ?
Is it a supernatural event that I have been created from nothing ?

For humans of course it is for Allah of course it is not

My question was maybe too difficult, sorry.

Yes, I think that this verse is a global thing on Allah.
And, as you say, it entails that Allah does not change anything regarding the affair of guidance via messengers, and especially, he does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).

You will not find any change in God?s way, and you will not find any bypass to God?s way.

Fine, however if I take it that way

Then why you think that changing a staff into a snake is not God?s way?

Well God?s way according to Him, not to you or us

Well Allah told us 35 times that He is able to do anything

Would you consider the act done as ?Anything??, I,E, ?changing anything to anything?, bear in mind the act is done by Allah not by Moses

First, what I have said is that Allah does not change his way in that He does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).??
He did not help Muhammad through miracles; therefore, he should not have helped this way his former messengers.

You are right I could have said too that Allah does not change his way in that He does not break the laws of nature (physical, biological laws?).
So, since (according to my limiting knowledge) a stick cannot be made to move like a snake.
I am aware that my knowledge about Allah?s physical laws is limited, but I think it is better to ground my conclusions on it rather than on tradition.

Yet, it is true that Allah can make anything he wants. He could have helped Muhammad through miracles.

And they said ?If only a sign was sent to him from his Lord!? Say ?God is able to send a sign, but most of them would not know.?

But he did not.

Allah can make anything he wants, but He has chosen to endow the world he has created with unchangeable laws.
He can, tomorrow decide to send the believers to hell and the unbelievers to paradise, but he will not.
In the same way, he can, tomorrow, decide to set the sun at the place of the moon, and conversely, but he will not.

God has endowed the universe with unchangeable laws, and this is the real sign (proof) of his existence.

"the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible"- A. Einstein

Lastly, there are many signs of God everywhere around us. There are signs of God in the nature, and the Quran also contains signs.
But all these signs cannot contradict themselves.
A sign in the Quran where it is said that a staff can be made to move like a snake is in contradiction with what we know of the physical laws about a staff. Therefore, I prefer see it as a metaphor.

That?s the way I choose the best interpretations, according to my limited scientific knowledge, and my limited understanding of the Quran.

Fine, but you are talking about other sort of magicians then

Yes

Then what is your point?

The real fantasy is to believe that, in the ancient days the people though like us today.

I don?t really know what you mean by that we are not comparing every thing between us and them bro, we only looking at the magic issue, please don?t confuse the subject

Now as far as I know magic since been inventetd is the same really, just illusions, you see many magicians now days bro, right

I?m not saying they used to wear the same cloths as the old ones, LOL, bro they do the same tricks

So where I?m fantasised exactly?

See what I have quoted in my previous post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6198.msg96637#msg96637

And when Our clear revelations were recited to them, they said ?This is but a man who wants to turn you away from what your parents were worshiping.? And they also said ?This is nothing but a fabricated lie.? And those who disbelieved say of the truth when it has come to them ?This is nothing but evident magic!?

He is the One who created the heavens and Earth in six days, and His throne was upon the water, and to test who from amongst you works the best. And when you Say ?You will be resurrected after death.? those who rejected will Say ?This is but clear magic!?

In these verses, it is clear that sihr does not mean magic, but rather deceitful speech.

Well, I know where you got confused bro,

What they meant above that, what Mohammad was saying were illusions because they accused him of being illusional, here it is bro

We know best why it is they listen, when they listen to thee; and when they meet in private conference, behold, the wicked say Ye follow none other than a man bewitched!

(47)

Or (why is not) treasure thrown down unto him, or why hath he not a paradise from whence to eat? And the evil-doers say Ye are but following a man bewitched.

(

-> See, they thought Mohammad was bewitched ?Mashura?, hence they accused him the the Quran is ?Sihr?, just an illusion as is not from God

I agree the word ?bewitched? is a good translation of mashura (same root as sihr).

Here is the meaning of this word To bewitch = ?To place under one's power by or as if by magic; cast a spell over. To captivate completely, entrance.?

It is indeed the main effect of sihr that to make people bewitched. Sihr designates powerful discourses that bewitch people.

When the disbelievers accused Muhammad of being bewitched, it means that, according to them, he has been placed under the power of some bewitcher, that he is under bewitchery.

But when they say his discourse (God?s revelations) is sihr, it is not exactly the same. There, it means that Muhammad is the bewitcher, the one who tries to deceive people by bewitching discourses.

The Quran states that the disbelievers will go to hell, and the disbelievers answer that the Quran is deceitful speech.

Sorry that was total BS, because the description was referring to THE HELL ?Tobsiron?, not to the Quran

I?m no fool bro whatever you try hard to twist

So, the day the disbelievers are sent to hell, God shows them that it is what they have considered to be lies and deceitful speech is real ().

Haha, bro, the verse is clearly saying the Allah is telling them ABOUT HELL, is it Sihr or that they don?t SEE, the Quran has noting to do with this verse

Read again and . The disbelievers said there that the discourse according to which they can be sent to hell was lie and enchantment.
When they are in hell, God says them ?Is this really enchantment? ?
So, yes, it is about hell, about the discourse according to which the hell exists which they have deemed to be lie and enchantment.

Peace

wildguest1956

Peace JM.

Maybe, but this is only your opinion. Do you have a proof?

It is only an opinion of mine. You asked the question ?why?. I just tried to give an explanation from the point of evolution of mankind.

I am sorry, but I do not find this explanation convincing.

Could you quote the verses who said that Muhammad longed for a miracle ?
I have not managed to find them.

I think, now, that my using the word ?longing? has not been appropriate. But I want to say that he had an expectation or something like that as was the case with changing of the Qibla.

635 And if their aversion has become too much for you, then perhaps you could make a tunnel in the Earth, or a ladder to the heavens, and bring them a sign. Had God willed, He would have gathered them to the guidance; so do not be of the ignorant ones.

This verse suggests that Muhammad had a wish to have a sign in pursuance with the demand of the people as expressed in the following verse.

637 And they said ?If only a sign was sent to him from his Lord!? Say ?God is able to send a sign, but most of them would not know.?

And what are you willing to prove, with that ?

And, last question you say the Quran is a miracle.
Could you explain what you mean?
Here is a definition of the word miracle
An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

The Quran is a miracle to me by your definition of the term. I just can not establish the relation between Muhammad and the Quran from laws of nature. It is inexplicable to me. Was Muhammad a poet-philosopher? Muhammad?s life does not suggest this. The achievements of this person within only 23 years is also a miracle to me. No law of sociology, derived from general investigation in rise and fall of civilization, can explain this huge history. Is there any such example of a poet-philosopher?

You are not really answering my question.
I was asking you why the Quran is a miracle, and you are replying about the (alledged) achievements of Muhammad?

In the chapter 28, the life of Moses is the main theme.

2848 But when the truth came to them from Us, they said ?If only he was given the same that was given to Moses!? Had they not rejected what was given to Moses before? They had said ?Two magicians assisting one another.? And they said ?We reject all these things.?

The people of Mecca wanted some sign from Muhammad similar to that of Moses. If revelation or demonstration of decisive arguments and the signs of Moses were not different in nature, the demand for similar sign makes no sense.

And how do you understand the following verse (which is about a scripture) ?

Say ?Then bring forth a scripture from God that is better in guidance so I may follow it, if you are truthful.?

Peace

Samia

Salaam all

The task of all messengers is to deliver a devine message. I wouldn't say that miracles are to help messengers convince people to believe in God, but they are rather "credentials" to the messenger so that people believe that he is sent by God. Just as an ambassador needs letters of credentials fromhis head of state to deliver to the head of the state where he is sent to represent his own government. In other words, those miracles are the signs of Prophethood.

If we understand what the miracle is for, then it would be easier to understand that those miracles were really what they look like, not allegories. These are not "the way" of God, but the way of God, which does not change, is His message. If we study the message since Noah, we see that it started with the call to believe in God, and that was all. With each messenger, the message built on (with the evolution of Man and the change of his needs) untill the time of Moses when he was given the ten commandments.

Each miracle reflected the mentality of the people to whom the messenger was sent. The message of Mohammad was not different. He was given the ten commandments, but he was also given more details, a system of law, economics, social behaviour..etc. What was Mohammad's credentials so that people believe that he was sent by God?

" And this Qur'aan is not such as could be produced by other than Allah but it is a confirmation of what he (the prophet) has in front of him (the message).." 12111

Since Allah tells us that Mohammad is a messenger to all the world and its last messenger, (not limited by time nor by place), his miracle should be up to this challenge. Magical tricks, healing the sick etc.. will not work for us (these could be done by anyone who can learn the secrets of the former and the science of the latter). Our attempts to try to understand those miracles allegorically is the proof that they wouldn't have worked for us.

To my understanding, the miracle of the Qur'aan has nothing to do with its "beautiful language" or "rhetoric" or anything to do with its linguistic style, albeit are really of high beauty. But such things will only be understood by someone who masters the Arabic language A negligible fraction of whom the meassage was sent to.The miracle is in the content which is expressed in a normal language. This content does not cover the message and the laws, because those are the very ones God want to show come from Him. It is the other part that deals with the Creation with all its astronomy, botany, zoology, medicine, anthropology..etc. TheQur'aan is not a science book either, but it is a kind of prophecy. I mean, we hear of some discovery in any of these sciences, then when we go back to the Qur'aan, we find it there staring us in the eyes, as if we never read that verse before. Even if that scientific theory pwas, later, proven to be untrue, the amazing thing is that you reread the Qur'aan, and you, again, find it there, you just missed it the first time! This is the miracle. If we have a scientific theory and it proved to be false, can you reread it and then discover that it changed, while the words are the very words, and find that it is now valid?

I read in another thread someone who wrote that Muslims say, for example, the Big Bang is there in the Qur'aan. He/she then asks What would happen if the Big Bang proved to be false? I say to him/her believe me, we will find the new theory in the very same words. Haven't the generations before us interpreted the Qur'aan according to their limited knowledge and found it logical? Many generations came after them, re-read the Qur'aan and saw what the ancestors couldn't see, and found a new understanding that conforms with their knowledge. Many generations will come after us, and they will laugh at our theories and will find in the same Book a new understanding that fits their knowledge.

And it is very true that

"It is only those who have knowledge among His slaves that fear Allah; Allah is All-Almighty, All-Forgiving" 3528.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Responding to the original question. This story is not literal history, but symbolic story that occured in history, today and in the future by mankind. Whoever fits the shoe must wear it. It is therefore not ficticious because it is happening, but not restricted to one group of people in history.

We must unlock the secrets of the symbolism.

unknownuser

This is bad faith, Ahmed.

Peace bro

Any verse from the Quran to support your claim above?

If they believe it is a miracle, then it entails that they believe in Allah.
See the verses following .

Bro, please bring the verse, you don?t want me to flick around looking for it, why not walking me through it and show me where I got it wrong

OK.
But where is the supernatural event here ?
Is it a supernatural event that I have been created from nothing ?

For humans of course it is, for Allah of course it is not

My question was maybe too difficult, sorry.

Not really, your question is only silly to be asked by someone calling himself a believer, however your question was asked many times before as the Quran told us so your question is 1400 years used by dat and surely Allah answered the question (the bring down a miracle one)

First, what I have said is that Allah does not change his way in that He does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).??

He did change His ways regarding that subject and He even told us about it in the Quran

And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully We only send the Signs by way of terror.

(59)

-> Here we go again and again, Allah is answering the question asked by the disbelievers ?Why Allah didn?t send down a sort of rabbit out of the hat sign to Mohammad ? And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false?, Allah even gave us an example ? We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully?, an important note in this verse is this Allah is telling us that the signs were sent not really to support His messengers rather to SCARE THE PEOPLE ? We only send the Signs by way of terror?, what clear and straight answer you want more than that?, I hope you take Allah answer over Iblis answer otherwise you will be Mushrik.

He did not help Muhammad through miracles; therefore, he should not have helped this way his former messengers.

Haha, Allah changed His ways as He told us in 1759 as well He told us that the signs were sent only to scare the people, not to support His prophets as stated in 1759

You are right I could have said too that Allah does not change his way in that He does not break the laws of nature (physical, biological laws?).

But He always does break His laws because His laws are not enforced on Him rather on us

So, since (according to my limiting knowledge) a stick cannot be made to move like a snake.

Good that it is according to your limited knowledge, now the knowledge have should be according to the following

you are a believer in Allah
you believe that the Quran is His true words
He told us in the Quran 35 times that He can do anything
He told us the He was the one who did the signs not His prophets

So I ask first, to correct me if the above don?t apply to you entirely especially (1&2), now if all the above apply to you, how the hell you can?t accept that Allah did that?

I am aware that my knowledge about Allah?s physical laws is limited, but I think it is better to ground my conclusions on it rather than on tradition.

I DON?T FOLLOW TRADITIONS, however if my understanding was like the traditions, I will feel very happy indeed.

Yet, it is true that Allah can make anything he wants. He could have helped Muhammad through miracles.

Here we go again, insisting on the disbelievers question, well Allah changed His way regarding sending sign down according to 1759

Please respond to 1759 and don?t dodge it, thanks

And they said ?If only a sign was sent to him from his Lord!? Say ?God is able to send a sign, but most of them would not know.?

But he did not.

Going backward and forward again and again, please refute 1759 then because Allah told us why He didn?t send a sort of a rabbit out of the hat miracle to Mohammad

Allah can make anything he wants,

This statement alone answers your question, so why you are wasting our time?

but He has chosen to endow the world he has created with unchangeable laws.

sorry the physical laws around us keep changing every day, look at the natural disasters that happens where children die who committed no sin yet, would you consider that to be a change in Allah laws?

He can, tomorrow decide to send the believers to hell and the unbelievers to paradise, but he will not.
In the same way, he can, tomorrow, decide to set the sun at the place of the moon, and conversely, but he will not.

Ezactly, and He can easily turn a staff to a snake

God has endowed the universe with unchangeable laws, and this is the real sign (proof) of his existence.

Really, then please explain to me

a person falls from the first floor and dies
a person falls from the 10 floor and have no scratch

where your physical laws fits in here?

I guess the law is, if you fall from the 10th floor you die, you can go and try it now if you wish, however Allah changed that law almost every day.

Why is that bro?

I tell you why, because Allah does what He wants when He wants

"the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible"- A. Einstein

I prefer verses from the Quran bro not by some infidels

Lastly, there are many signs of God everywhere around us. There are signs of God in the nature, and the Quran also contains signs.

I may ask then , do you need a sign for yourself or you are just worried about the disbelievers?

But all these signs cannot contradict themselves.

I guess they must contradict your physical laws

A sign in the Quran where it is said that a staff can be made to move like a snake is in contradiction with what we know of the physical laws about a staff.

Yeh , that is the physical laws enforced on us, therefore a sign can?t be a sign unless it violates these laws, clear and simple bro, you started to be a time waster, sorry

Therefore, I prefer see it as a metaphor.

Good for you

That?s the way I choose the best interpretations, according to my limited scientific knowledge, and my limited understanding of the Quran.

Keep it for yourself then due to the limitations you have, but thanks anyway for discussing it with me

The real fantasy is to believe that, in the ancient days the people though like us today.

Then prove to me that they didn?t think like us today

I don?t really know what you mean by that we are not comparing every thing between us and them bro, we only looking at the magic issue, please don?t confuse the subject

What I meant really is this I care less about those old people other than what Allah told me because I won?t take a human witness regarding divine matters and Allah is there to give witness about His matters, so in this matter we only discussing magic now and then, and I see it the same exactly now and then and in the future, the difference is just new tricks they learn

See what I have quoted in my previous post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6198.msg96637#msg96637

Please bro just bring the quote here, I?m not a fan of jumping between posts

I agree the word ?bewitched? is a good translation of mashura (same root as sihr).

Here is the meaning of this word To bewitch = ?To place under one's power by or as if by magic; cast a spell over. To captivate completely, entrance.?

It is indeed the main effect of sihr that to make people bewitched. Sihr designates powerful discourses that bewitch people.

Ok

When the disbelievers accused Muhammad of being bewitched, it means that, according to them, he has been placed under the power of some bewitcher, that he is under bewitchery.

i.e. the Quran is not from God and is ILLUSIONED by Mohammad, i.e it is Sihr by Mohammad

But when they say his discourse (God?s revelations) is sihr, it is not exactly the same. There, it means that Muhammad is the bewitcher, the one who tries to deceive people by bewitching discourses.

It means for me that Mohammad is a Sahir i.e. what he brought was Sihr, i.e. what brought to them was AN ILLUSION

Read again

Well I don?t get your point, in fact 3443 is one of the reasons Allah changed His laws regarding sending unnatural Signs to the people as He told us in 1759

and .

Again 1117 is irrelevant to this discussion about magic

The disbelievers said there that the discourse according to which they can be sent to hell was lie and enchantment.

Neither 3443 nor 1117 told us that the believers said anything, if you mean the other verse ?Mashura? then they said that Mohammad is bewitched and this means the Quran is not a real sign but an illusion ?SIHR?

When they are in hell, God says them ?Is this really enchantment? ?

Sorry where did He say that? I need the verse please

So, yes, it is about hell,

Good then, see it is not about deceitful speech

about the discourse according to which the hell exists which they have deemed to be lie and enchantment.

Peace

wow, now it is about aother thing, two different things indeed, thanks for the confusion

Salam

lovelymoslems

peace

When the miracles/ayahs are being narrated to Muhammad, is he thinking 'hmm these miracles must be allegories'

Not Muhammad, its U

prashant_kumar

Peace JM and others.

I am sorry, but I do not find this explanation convincing.

My explanation may also not be correct even. It is God who knows the best why He split the sea for Moses and denies to do anything like that for Muhammad. If you are not convinced you can leave it.

And what are you willing to prove, with that ?

I mentioned it in my earlier post. In response to that you asked for a verse from the Quran that can prove that Muhammad really had a wish to have a sign demanded by the people. Can you explain why he had such a wish?

You are not really answering my question.
I was asking you why the Quran is a miracle, and you are replying about the (alledged) achievements of Muhammad?

I have actually pointed the reasons why I consider it a Miracle. If you do not think that it is a miracle, you can show us the reasons. You then are to demonstrate the following things.

Quran can be composed by a man like Muhammad.
Any one in future may also compose a poetry like it or even a better one.

And how do you understand the following verse (which is about a scripture) ?
Say ?Then bring forth a scripture from God that is better in guidance so I may follow it, if you are truthful.?

OK. I can not make a stick move like a serpent, or split the sea into huge mountains as Moses did. But I am receiving a Book of guidance. If you can produce a better book, I shall follow it. This is my miracle. You have better poets than I am. Actually I am not a poet at all. You all know me, my past. Then gather all your established and renowned poets and try. You think you have what has been left from Moses. Take help from that too if you want. This is a miracle by which God guides me as Moses was guided by God through the sea. Moses was not a magician, yet the signs bestowed upon him excelled the magicians of his time. I am similarly not a poet. Let your poets excel the signs bestowed upon me.

lovelymoslems

I have actually pointed the reasons why I consider it a Miracle. If you do not think that it is a miracle, you can show us the reasons. You then are to demonstrate the following things.

Quran can be composed by a man like Muhammad.
Any one in future may also compose a poetry like it or even a better one.

Al Quran is Muhammad's words not Allah, but as his words is spirit we believe its Allah's. Its possible someone can write better than now as he was a prophet.

wildguest1956

First, what I have said is that Allah does not change his way in that He does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).??

He did change His ways regarding that subject and He even told us about it in the Quran

And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully We only send the Signs by way of terror.

(59)

-> Here we go again and again, Allah is answering the question asked by the disbelievers ?Why Allah didn?t send down a sort of rabbit out of the hat sign to Mohammad ? And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false?, Allah even gave us an example ? We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully?, an important note in this verse is this Allah is telling us that the signs were sent not really to support His messengers rather to SCARE THE PEOPLE ? We only send the Signs by way of terror?, what clear and straight answer you want more than that?, I hope you take Allah answer over Iblis answer otherwise you will be Mushrik.

Your translation of is flawed.
You have not translated the word bi (with) before the word ayat, and you have translated the word ayat (sign) with the word ?miracle? though the context is not about miracles. In particular, there was nothing miraculous regarding the she-camel.

Here is MSA?s one

And nothing prevented/prohibited us that (E) We send with the verses/evidences except that the first/beginners lied/denied/falsified with it, and We gave/brought Thamud the (F) camel manifest/clearly visible to the eye and understanding/clear evidence , so they caused injustice with it, and We do not sent with the verses/evidences/signs except frightening.

The preceding verses say that the idolatrous nations are eventually destructed.

Here is now my rendition of the verse

And nothing prohibited Us that We may send with the signs except that the earlier people denied them. And We gave Thamud the she-camel as one which made matters evident, but they did her wrong. And We do not send with the signs but as a warning .

Indeed, as we can see in other verses, the signs associated with the she-camel have been ignored by the Thamud, and they were eventually destroyed.

but He has chosen to endow the world he has created with unchangeable laws.

sorry the physical laws around us keep changing every day, look at the natural disasters that happens where children die who committed no sin yet, would you consider that to be a change in Allah laws?

Natural disasters are among the laws God has endowed the universe with.

Peace

matinbhagat

Peace sister Samia,
but your last post about how the new knowledge is always confirmed(from generation to generation) by God's words in the quran was touching and highly fruitful.Thank you for the post.

He is Allah knower of the unseen and the open....and there is no God but He!

Salam to all on this thread.