Is it a fictitious story?

wildguest1956

And they swore by God using their strongest oaths; that if a sign came to them they would believe in it.

Peace bro

Mate it says ?Belive in it?, NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH,

All they said that they will believe in the miracle

This is bad faith, Ahmed.
If they believe it is a miracle, then it entails that they believe in Allah.
See the verses following .

OK.
But where is the supernatural event here ?
Is it a supernatural event that I have been created from nothing ?

For humans of course it is for Allah of course it is not

My question was maybe too difficult, sorry.

Yes, I think that this verse is a global thing on Allah.
And, as you say, it entails that Allah does not change anything regarding the affair of guidance via messengers, and especially, he does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).

You will not find any change in God?s way, and you will not find any bypass to God?s way.

Fine, however if I take it that way

Then why you think that changing a staff into a snake is not God?s way?

Well God?s way according to Him, not to you or us

Well Allah told us 35 times that He is able to do anything

Would you consider the act done as ?Anything??, I,E, ?changing anything to anything?, bear in mind the act is done by Allah not by Moses

First, what I have said is that Allah does not change his way in that He does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).??
He did not help Muhammad through miracles; therefore, he should not have helped this way his former messengers.

You are right I could have said too that Allah does not change his way in that He does not break the laws of nature (physical, biological laws?).
So, since (according to my limiting knowledge) a stick cannot be made to move like a snake.
I am aware that my knowledge about Allah?s physical laws is limited, but I think it is better to ground my conclusions on it rather than on tradition.

Yet, it is true that Allah can make anything he wants. He could have helped Muhammad through miracles.

And they said ?If only a sign was sent to him from his Lord!? Say ?God is able to send a sign, but most of them would not know.?

But he did not.

Allah can make anything he wants, but He has chosen to endow the world he has created with unchangeable laws.
He can, tomorrow decide to send the believers to hell and the unbelievers to paradise, but he will not.
In the same way, he can, tomorrow, decide to set the sun at the place of the moon, and conversely, but he will not.

God has endowed the universe with unchangeable laws, and this is the real sign (proof) of his existence.

"the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible"- A. Einstein

Lastly, there are many signs of God everywhere around us. There are signs of God in the nature, and the Quran also contains signs.
But all these signs cannot contradict themselves.
A sign in the Quran where it is said that a staff can be made to move like a snake is in contradiction with what we know of the physical laws about a staff. Therefore, I prefer see it as a metaphor.

That?s the way I choose the best interpretations, according to my limited scientific knowledge, and my limited understanding of the Quran.

Fine, but you are talking about other sort of magicians then

Yes

Then what is your point?

The real fantasy is to believe that, in the ancient days the people though like us today.

I don?t really know what you mean by that we are not comparing every thing between us and them bro, we only looking at the magic issue, please don?t confuse the subject

Now as far as I know magic since been inventetd is the same really, just illusions, you see many magicians now days bro, right

I?m not saying they used to wear the same cloths as the old ones, LOL, bro they do the same tricks

So where I?m fantasised exactly?

See what I have quoted in my previous post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6198.msg96637#msg96637

And when Our clear revelations were recited to them, they said ?This is but a man who wants to turn you away from what your parents were worshiping.? And they also said ?This is nothing but a fabricated lie.? And those who disbelieved say of the truth when it has come to them ?This is nothing but evident magic!?

He is the One who created the heavens and Earth in six days, and His throne was upon the water, and to test who from amongst you works the best. And when you Say ?You will be resurrected after death.? those who rejected will Say ?This is but clear magic!?

In these verses, it is clear that sihr does not mean magic, but rather deceitful speech.

Well, I know where you got confused bro,

What they meant above that, what Mohammad was saying were illusions because they accused him of being illusional, here it is bro

We know best why it is they listen, when they listen to thee; and when they meet in private conference, behold, the wicked say Ye follow none other than a man bewitched!

(47)

Or (why is not) treasure thrown down unto him, or why hath he not a paradise from whence to eat? And the evil-doers say Ye are but following a man bewitched.

(

-> See, they thought Mohammad was bewitched ?Mashura?, hence they accused him the the Quran is ?Sihr?, just an illusion as is not from God

I agree the word ?bewitched? is a good translation of mashura (same root as sihr).

Here is the meaning of this word To bewitch = ?To place under one's power by or as if by magic; cast a spell over. To captivate completely, entrance.?

It is indeed the main effect of sihr that to make people bewitched. Sihr designates powerful discourses that bewitch people.

When the disbelievers accused Muhammad of being bewitched, it means that, according to them, he has been placed under the power of some bewitcher, that he is under bewitchery.

But when they say his discourse (God?s revelations) is sihr, it is not exactly the same. There, it means that Muhammad is the bewitcher, the one who tries to deceive people by bewitching discourses.

The Quran states that the disbelievers will go to hell, and the disbelievers answer that the Quran is deceitful speech.

Sorry that was total BS, because the description was referring to THE HELL ?Tobsiron?, not to the Quran

I?m no fool bro whatever you try hard to twist

So, the day the disbelievers are sent to hell, God shows them that it is what they have considered to be lies and deceitful speech is real ().

Haha, bro, the verse is clearly saying the Allah is telling them ABOUT HELL, is it Sihr or that they don?t SEE, the Quran has noting to do with this verse

Read again and . The disbelievers said there that the discourse according to which they can be sent to hell was lie and enchantment.
When they are in hell, God says them ?Is this really enchantment? ?
So, yes, it is about hell, about the discourse according to which the hell exists which they have deemed to be lie and enchantment.

Peace

wildguest1956

Peace JM.

Maybe, but this is only your opinion. Do you have a proof?

It is only an opinion of mine. You asked the question ?why?. I just tried to give an explanation from the point of evolution of mankind.

I am sorry, but I do not find this explanation convincing.

Could you quote the verses who said that Muhammad longed for a miracle ?
I have not managed to find them.

I think, now, that my using the word ?longing? has not been appropriate. But I want to say that he had an expectation or something like that as was the case with changing of the Qibla.

635 And if their aversion has become too much for you, then perhaps you could make a tunnel in the Earth, or a ladder to the heavens, and bring them a sign. Had God willed, He would have gathered them to the guidance; so do not be of the ignorant ones.

This verse suggests that Muhammad had a wish to have a sign in pursuance with the demand of the people as expressed in the following verse.

637 And they said ?If only a sign was sent to him from his Lord!? Say ?God is able to send a sign, but most of them would not know.?

And what are you willing to prove, with that ?

And, last question you say the Quran is a miracle.
Could you explain what you mean?
Here is a definition of the word miracle
An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

The Quran is a miracle to me by your definition of the term. I just can not establish the relation between Muhammad and the Quran from laws of nature. It is inexplicable to me. Was Muhammad a poet-philosopher? Muhammad?s life does not suggest this. The achievements of this person within only 23 years is also a miracle to me. No law of sociology, derived from general investigation in rise and fall of civilization, can explain this huge history. Is there any such example of a poet-philosopher?

You are not really answering my question.
I was asking you why the Quran is a miracle, and you are replying about the (alledged) achievements of Muhammad?

In the chapter 28, the life of Moses is the main theme.

2848 But when the truth came to them from Us, they said ?If only he was given the same that was given to Moses!? Had they not rejected what was given to Moses before? They had said ?Two magicians assisting one another.? And they said ?We reject all these things.?

The people of Mecca wanted some sign from Muhammad similar to that of Moses. If revelation or demonstration of decisive arguments and the signs of Moses were not different in nature, the demand for similar sign makes no sense.

And how do you understand the following verse (which is about a scripture) ?

Say ?Then bring forth a scripture from God that is better in guidance so I may follow it, if you are truthful.?

Peace

Samia

Salaam all

The task of all messengers is to deliver a devine message. I wouldn't say that miracles are to help messengers convince people to believe in God, but they are rather "credentials" to the messenger so that people believe that he is sent by God. Just as an ambassador needs letters of credentials fromhis head of state to deliver to the head of the state where he is sent to represent his own government. In other words, those miracles are the signs of Prophethood.

If we understand what the miracle is for, then it would be easier to understand that those miracles were really what they look like, not allegories. These are not "the way" of God, but the way of God, which does not change, is His message. If we study the message since Noah, we see that it started with the call to believe in God, and that was all. With each messenger, the message built on (with the evolution of Man and the change of his needs) untill the time of Moses when he was given the ten commandments.

Each miracle reflected the mentality of the people to whom the messenger was sent. The message of Mohammad was not different. He was given the ten commandments, but he was also given more details, a system of law, economics, social behaviour..etc. What was Mohammad's credentials so that people believe that he was sent by God?

" And this Qur'aan is not such as could be produced by other than Allah but it is a confirmation of what he (the prophet) has in front of him (the message).." 12111

Since Allah tells us that Mohammad is a messenger to all the world and its last messenger, (not limited by time nor by place), his miracle should be up to this challenge. Magical tricks, healing the sick etc.. will not work for us (these could be done by anyone who can learn the secrets of the former and the science of the latter). Our attempts to try to understand those miracles allegorically is the proof that they wouldn't have worked for us.

To my understanding, the miracle of the Qur'aan has nothing to do with its "beautiful language" or "rhetoric" or anything to do with its linguistic style, albeit are really of high beauty. But such things will only be understood by someone who masters the Arabic language A negligible fraction of whom the meassage was sent to.The miracle is in the content which is expressed in a normal language. This content does not cover the message and the laws, because those are the very ones God want to show come from Him. It is the other part that deals with the Creation with all its astronomy, botany, zoology, medicine, anthropology..etc. TheQur'aan is not a science book either, but it is a kind of prophecy. I mean, we hear of some discovery in any of these sciences, then when we go back to the Qur'aan, we find it there staring us in the eyes, as if we never read that verse before. Even if that scientific theory pwas, later, proven to be untrue, the amazing thing is that you reread the Qur'aan, and you, again, find it there, you just missed it the first time! This is the miracle. If we have a scientific theory and it proved to be false, can you reread it and then discover that it changed, while the words are the very words, and find that it is now valid?

I read in another thread someone who wrote that Muslims say, for example, the Big Bang is there in the Qur'aan. He/she then asks What would happen if the Big Bang proved to be false? I say to him/her believe me, we will find the new theory in the very same words. Haven't the generations before us interpreted the Qur'aan according to their limited knowledge and found it logical? Many generations came after them, re-read the Qur'aan and saw what the ancestors couldn't see, and found a new understanding that conforms with their knowledge. Many generations will come after us, and they will laugh at our theories and will find in the same Book a new understanding that fits their knowledge.

And it is very true that

"It is only those who have knowledge among His slaves that fear Allah; Allah is All-Almighty, All-Forgiving" 3528.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Responding to the original question. This story is not literal history, but symbolic story that occured in history, today and in the future by mankind. Whoever fits the shoe must wear it. It is therefore not ficticious because it is happening, but not restricted to one group of people in history.

We must unlock the secrets of the symbolism.

unknownuser

This is bad faith, Ahmed.

Peace bro

Any verse from the Quran to support your claim above?

If they believe it is a miracle, then it entails that they believe in Allah.
See the verses following .

Bro, please bring the verse, you don?t want me to flick around looking for it, why not walking me through it and show me where I got it wrong

OK.
But where is the supernatural event here ?
Is it a supernatural event that I have been created from nothing ?

For humans of course it is, for Allah of course it is not

My question was maybe too difficult, sorry.

Not really, your question is only silly to be asked by someone calling himself a believer, however your question was asked many times before as the Quran told us so your question is 1400 years used by dat and surely Allah answered the question (the bring down a miracle one)

First, what I have said is that Allah does not change his way in that He does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).??

He did change His ways regarding that subject and He even told us about it in the Quran

And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully We only send the Signs by way of terror.

(59)

-> Here we go again and again, Allah is answering the question asked by the disbelievers ?Why Allah didn?t send down a sort of rabbit out of the hat sign to Mohammad ? And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false?, Allah even gave us an example ? We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully?, an important note in this verse is this Allah is telling us that the signs were sent not really to support His messengers rather to SCARE THE PEOPLE ? We only send the Signs by way of terror?, what clear and straight answer you want more than that?, I hope you take Allah answer over Iblis answer otherwise you will be Mushrik.

He did not help Muhammad through miracles; therefore, he should not have helped this way his former messengers.

Haha, Allah changed His ways as He told us in 1759 as well He told us that the signs were sent only to scare the people, not to support His prophets as stated in 1759

You are right I could have said too that Allah does not change his way in that He does not break the laws of nature (physical, biological laws?).

But He always does break His laws because His laws are not enforced on Him rather on us

So, since (according to my limiting knowledge) a stick cannot be made to move like a snake.

Good that it is according to your limited knowledge, now the knowledge have should be according to the following

you are a believer in Allah
you believe that the Quran is His true words
He told us in the Quran 35 times that He can do anything
He told us the He was the one who did the signs not His prophets

So I ask first, to correct me if the above don?t apply to you entirely especially (1&2), now if all the above apply to you, how the hell you can?t accept that Allah did that?

I am aware that my knowledge about Allah?s physical laws is limited, but I think it is better to ground my conclusions on it rather than on tradition.

I DON?T FOLLOW TRADITIONS, however if my understanding was like the traditions, I will feel very happy indeed.

Yet, it is true that Allah can make anything he wants. He could have helped Muhammad through miracles.

Here we go again, insisting on the disbelievers question, well Allah changed His way regarding sending sign down according to 1759

Please respond to 1759 and don?t dodge it, thanks

And they said ?If only a sign was sent to him from his Lord!? Say ?God is able to send a sign, but most of them would not know.?

But he did not.

Going backward and forward again and again, please refute 1759 then because Allah told us why He didn?t send a sort of a rabbit out of the hat miracle to Mohammad

Allah can make anything he wants,

This statement alone answers your question, so why you are wasting our time?

but He has chosen to endow the world he has created with unchangeable laws.

sorry the physical laws around us keep changing every day, look at the natural disasters that happens where children die who committed no sin yet, would you consider that to be a change in Allah laws?

He can, tomorrow decide to send the believers to hell and the unbelievers to paradise, but he will not.
In the same way, he can, tomorrow, decide to set the sun at the place of the moon, and conversely, but he will not.

Ezactly, and He can easily turn a staff to a snake

God has endowed the universe with unchangeable laws, and this is the real sign (proof) of his existence.

Really, then please explain to me

a person falls from the first floor and dies
a person falls from the 10 floor and have no scratch

where your physical laws fits in here?

I guess the law is, if you fall from the 10th floor you die, you can go and try it now if you wish, however Allah changed that law almost every day.

Why is that bro?

I tell you why, because Allah does what He wants when He wants

"the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible"- A. Einstein

I prefer verses from the Quran bro not by some infidels

Lastly, there are many signs of God everywhere around us. There are signs of God in the nature, and the Quran also contains signs.

I may ask then , do you need a sign for yourself or you are just worried about the disbelievers?

But all these signs cannot contradict themselves.

I guess they must contradict your physical laws

A sign in the Quran where it is said that a staff can be made to move like a snake is in contradiction with what we know of the physical laws about a staff.

Yeh , that is the physical laws enforced on us, therefore a sign can?t be a sign unless it violates these laws, clear and simple bro, you started to be a time waster, sorry

Therefore, I prefer see it as a metaphor.

Good for you

That?s the way I choose the best interpretations, according to my limited scientific knowledge, and my limited understanding of the Quran.

Keep it for yourself then due to the limitations you have, but thanks anyway for discussing it with me

The real fantasy is to believe that, in the ancient days the people though like us today.

Then prove to me that they didn?t think like us today

I don?t really know what you mean by that we are not comparing every thing between us and them bro, we only looking at the magic issue, please don?t confuse the subject

What I meant really is this I care less about those old people other than what Allah told me because I won?t take a human witness regarding divine matters and Allah is there to give witness about His matters, so in this matter we only discussing magic now and then, and I see it the same exactly now and then and in the future, the difference is just new tricks they learn

See what I have quoted in my previous post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6198.msg96637#msg96637

Please bro just bring the quote here, I?m not a fan of jumping between posts

I agree the word ?bewitched? is a good translation of mashura (same root as sihr).

Here is the meaning of this word To bewitch = ?To place under one's power by or as if by magic; cast a spell over. To captivate completely, entrance.?

It is indeed the main effect of sihr that to make people bewitched. Sihr designates powerful discourses that bewitch people.

Ok

When the disbelievers accused Muhammad of being bewitched, it means that, according to them, he has been placed under the power of some bewitcher, that he is under bewitchery.

i.e. the Quran is not from God and is ILLUSIONED by Mohammad, i.e it is Sihr by Mohammad

But when they say his discourse (God?s revelations) is sihr, it is not exactly the same. There, it means that Muhammad is the bewitcher, the one who tries to deceive people by bewitching discourses.

It means for me that Mohammad is a Sahir i.e. what he brought was Sihr, i.e. what brought to them was AN ILLUSION

Read again

Well I don?t get your point, in fact 3443 is one of the reasons Allah changed His laws regarding sending unnatural Signs to the people as He told us in 1759

and .

Again 1117 is irrelevant to this discussion about magic

The disbelievers said there that the discourse according to which they can be sent to hell was lie and enchantment.

Neither 3443 nor 1117 told us that the believers said anything, if you mean the other verse ?Mashura? then they said that Mohammad is bewitched and this means the Quran is not a real sign but an illusion ?SIHR?

When they are in hell, God says them ?Is this really enchantment? ?

Sorry where did He say that? I need the verse please

So, yes, it is about hell,

Good then, see it is not about deceitful speech

about the discourse according to which the hell exists which they have deemed to be lie and enchantment.

Peace

wow, now it is about aother thing, two different things indeed, thanks for the confusion

Salam

lovelymoslems

peace

When the miracles/ayahs are being narrated to Muhammad, is he thinking 'hmm these miracles must be allegories'

Not Muhammad, its U

prashant_kumar

Peace JM and others.

I am sorry, but I do not find this explanation convincing.

My explanation may also not be correct even. It is God who knows the best why He split the sea for Moses and denies to do anything like that for Muhammad. If you are not convinced you can leave it.

And what are you willing to prove, with that ?

I mentioned it in my earlier post. In response to that you asked for a verse from the Quran that can prove that Muhammad really had a wish to have a sign demanded by the people. Can you explain why he had such a wish?

You are not really answering my question.
I was asking you why the Quran is a miracle, and you are replying about the (alledged) achievements of Muhammad?

I have actually pointed the reasons why I consider it a Miracle. If you do not think that it is a miracle, you can show us the reasons. You then are to demonstrate the following things.

Quran can be composed by a man like Muhammad.
Any one in future may also compose a poetry like it or even a better one.

And how do you understand the following verse (which is about a scripture) ?
Say ?Then bring forth a scripture from God that is better in guidance so I may follow it, if you are truthful.?

OK. I can not make a stick move like a serpent, or split the sea into huge mountains as Moses did. But I am receiving a Book of guidance. If you can produce a better book, I shall follow it. This is my miracle. You have better poets than I am. Actually I am not a poet at all. You all know me, my past. Then gather all your established and renowned poets and try. You think you have what has been left from Moses. Take help from that too if you want. This is a miracle by which God guides me as Moses was guided by God through the sea. Moses was not a magician, yet the signs bestowed upon him excelled the magicians of his time. I am similarly not a poet. Let your poets excel the signs bestowed upon me.

lovelymoslems

I have actually pointed the reasons why I consider it a Miracle. If you do not think that it is a miracle, you can show us the reasons. You then are to demonstrate the following things.

Quran can be composed by a man like Muhammad.
Any one in future may also compose a poetry like it or even a better one.

Al Quran is Muhammad's words not Allah, but as his words is spirit we believe its Allah's. Its possible someone can write better than now as he was a prophet.

wildguest1956

First, what I have said is that Allah does not change his way in that He does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).??

He did change His ways regarding that subject and He even told us about it in the Quran

And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully We only send the Signs by way of terror.

(59)

-> Here we go again and again, Allah is answering the question asked by the disbelievers ?Why Allah didn?t send down a sort of rabbit out of the hat sign to Mohammad ? And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false?, Allah even gave us an example ? We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully?, an important note in this verse is this Allah is telling us that the signs were sent not really to support His messengers rather to SCARE THE PEOPLE ? We only send the Signs by way of terror?, what clear and straight answer you want more than that?, I hope you take Allah answer over Iblis answer otherwise you will be Mushrik.

Your translation of is flawed.
You have not translated the word bi (with) before the word ayat, and you have translated the word ayat (sign) with the word ?miracle? though the context is not about miracles. In particular, there was nothing miraculous regarding the she-camel.

Here is MSA?s one

And nothing prevented/prohibited us that (E) We send with the verses/evidences except that the first/beginners lied/denied/falsified with it, and We gave/brought Thamud the (F) camel manifest/clearly visible to the eye and understanding/clear evidence , so they caused injustice with it, and We do not sent with the verses/evidences/signs except frightening.

The preceding verses say that the idolatrous nations are eventually destructed.

Here is now my rendition of the verse

And nothing prohibited Us that We may send with the signs except that the earlier people denied them. And We gave Thamud the she-camel as one which made matters evident, but they did her wrong. And We do not send with the signs but as a warning .

Indeed, as we can see in other verses, the signs associated with the she-camel have been ignored by the Thamud, and they were eventually destroyed.

but He has chosen to endow the world he has created with unchangeable laws.

sorry the physical laws around us keep changing every day, look at the natural disasters that happens where children die who committed no sin yet, would you consider that to be a change in Allah laws?

Natural disasters are among the laws God has endowed the universe with.

Peace

matinbhagat

Peace sister Samia,
but your last post about how the new knowledge is always confirmed(from generation to generation) by God's words in the quran was touching and highly fruitful.Thank you for the post.

He is Allah knower of the unseen and the open....and there is no God but He!

Salam to all on this thread.

wildguest1956

I am sorry, but I do not find this explanation convincing.

My explanation may also not be correct even. It is God who knows the best why He split the sea for Moses and denies to do anything like that for Muhammad. If you are not convinced you can leave it.

I strongly suggest you to read this book
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/kt/KT.htm

It shall help you understand my view.

And what are you willing to prove, with that ?

I mentioned it in my earlier post. In response to that you asked for a verse from the Quran that can prove that Muhammad really had a wish to have a sign demanded by the people. Can you explain why he had such a wish?

I do not see in the verse that Muhammad wished God sent him a miracle.
Yet, it is true (and it is oft-repeated in the Quran) that Muhammad was deeply grieved by the rejection of his message.

You are not really answering my question.
I was asking you why the Quran is a miracle, and you are replying about the (alledged) achievements of Muhammad?

I have actually pointed the reasons why I consider it a Miracle. If you do not think that it is a miracle, you can show us the reasons. You then are to demonstrate the following things.

Quran can be composed by a man like Muhammad.
Any one in future may also compose a poetry like it or even a better one.

Indeed, I am not sure we can state that the Quran is a miracle (something supernatural).
Yet, it is undoubtedly a sign (a message) from God.

And I am not sure the Quran is inimitable in style, as it is said to be in clear Arabic language.

The challenge ?bring something like it? is, according to me, misunderstood.

The Quran was a very powerful discourse. When Muhammad was preaching it, many people have seen in it the truth from God. He was disturbing many established orders.

However, the disbelievers sometimes accused Muhammad of having fabricated the Quran. According to their claim, Muhammad would have been an imposter, making people believe that he speaks in the name of god to gain power over them, like many ones (among the idolaters) have done.

What did he answer them? He challenged these people to do the same as he, that is, to fabricate a discourse as powerful as the Quran, claiming it is from God, to recruit people and gain power.

Obviously they could never do that, because the very strength of the Quran is that it could not be hijacked to serve the vested interests of some leaders. The Quran could not be the word of some imposter; it could only be the word of God, because of that.

And how do you understand the following verse (which is about a scripture) ?
Say ?Then bring forth a scripture from God that is better in guidance so I may follow it, if you are truthful.?

OK. I can not make a stick move like a serpent, or split the sea into huge mountains as Moses did. But I am receiving a Book of guidance. If you can produce a better book, I shall follow it. This is my miracle. You have better poets than I am. Actually I am not a poet at all. You all know me, my past. Then gather all your established and renowned poets and try. You think you have what has been left from Moses. Take help from that too if you want. This is a miracle by which God guides me as Moses was guided by God through the sea. Moses was not a magician, yet the signs bestowed upon him excelled the magicians of his time. I am similarly not a poet. Let your poets excel the signs bestowed upon me.

You have not got my point.

For me, the verse proves that the signs given to Moses in are nothing but words (a scripture); they are not miracles.

Peace

Samia

Peace sister Samia,
but your last post about how the new knowledge is always confirmed(from generation to generation) by God's words in the quran was touching and highly fruitful.Thank you for the post.

He is Allah knower of the unseen and the open....and there is no God but He!

Salam to all on this thread.

Salaam mtinbhagat

Thanks for the kind words. May Allah increase our knowledge.

andy

Salaam all,

those of you against miracles, explain to me these verses

We supported Moses with nine profound miracles - ask the Children of Israel. When he went to them, Pharaoh said to him, "I think that you, Moses, are bewitched."

He said, "You know full well that no one can manifest these except, obviously, the Lord of the heavens and the earth. I think that you, Pharaoh, are doomed."

Recall that Moses sought water for his people. We said, "Strike the rock with your staff." Whereupon, twelve springs gushed out therefrom. The members of each tribe knew their own water. Eat and drink from GOD's provisions, and do not roam the earth corruptingly.

Don't confuse the law of this planet with the law of the Almighty

The Initiator of the heavens and the earth to have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.

Are you challenging God's omnipotence by limiting him to the laws of YOUR planet?

I am sorry if I miss it but has somebody addressed the above questions from Imran K? I have read from page 2

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6198.msg96558#msg96558

until the last page but have not seen somebody addressed the questions directly.