Is it a fictitious story?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Responding to the original question. This story is not literal history, but symbolic story that occured in history, today and in the future by mankind. Whoever fits the shoe must wear it. It is therefore not ficticious because it is happening, but not restricted to one group of people in history.

We must unlock the secrets of the symbolism.

unknownuser

This is bad faith, Ahmed.

Peace bro

Any verse from the Quran to support your claim above?

If they believe it is a miracle, then it entails that they believe in Allah.
See the verses following .

Bro, please bring the verse, you don?t want me to flick around looking for it, why not walking me through it and show me where I got it wrong

OK.
But where is the supernatural event here ?
Is it a supernatural event that I have been created from nothing ?

For humans of course it is, for Allah of course it is not

My question was maybe too difficult, sorry.

Not really, your question is only silly to be asked by someone calling himself a believer, however your question was asked many times before as the Quran told us so your question is 1400 years used by dat and surely Allah answered the question (the bring down a miracle one)

First, what I have said is that Allah does not change his way in that He does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).??

He did change His ways regarding that subject and He even told us about it in the Quran

And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully We only send the Signs by way of terror.

(59)

-> Here we go again and again, Allah is answering the question asked by the disbelievers ?Why Allah didn?t send down a sort of rabbit out of the hat sign to Mohammad ? And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false?, Allah even gave us an example ? We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully?, an important note in this verse is this Allah is telling us that the signs were sent not really to support His messengers rather to SCARE THE PEOPLE ? We only send the Signs by way of terror?, what clear and straight answer you want more than that?, I hope you take Allah answer over Iblis answer otherwise you will be Mushrik.

He did not help Muhammad through miracles; therefore, he should not have helped this way his former messengers.

Haha, Allah changed His ways as He told us in 1759 as well He told us that the signs were sent only to scare the people, not to support His prophets as stated in 1759

You are right I could have said too that Allah does not change his way in that He does not break the laws of nature (physical, biological laws?).

But He always does break His laws because His laws are not enforced on Him rather on us

So, since (according to my limiting knowledge) a stick cannot be made to move like a snake.

Good that it is according to your limited knowledge, now the knowledge have should be according to the following

you are a believer in Allah
you believe that the Quran is His true words
He told us in the Quran 35 times that He can do anything
He told us the He was the one who did the signs not His prophets

So I ask first, to correct me if the above don?t apply to you entirely especially (1&2), now if all the above apply to you, how the hell you can?t accept that Allah did that?

I am aware that my knowledge about Allah?s physical laws is limited, but I think it is better to ground my conclusions on it rather than on tradition.

I DON?T FOLLOW TRADITIONS, however if my understanding was like the traditions, I will feel very happy indeed.

Yet, it is true that Allah can make anything he wants. He could have helped Muhammad through miracles.

Here we go again, insisting on the disbelievers question, well Allah changed His way regarding sending sign down according to 1759

Please respond to 1759 and don?t dodge it, thanks

And they said ?If only a sign was sent to him from his Lord!? Say ?God is able to send a sign, but most of them would not know.?

But he did not.

Going backward and forward again and again, please refute 1759 then because Allah told us why He didn?t send a sort of a rabbit out of the hat miracle to Mohammad

Allah can make anything he wants,

This statement alone answers your question, so why you are wasting our time?

but He has chosen to endow the world he has created with unchangeable laws.

sorry the physical laws around us keep changing every day, look at the natural disasters that happens where children die who committed no sin yet, would you consider that to be a change in Allah laws?

He can, tomorrow decide to send the believers to hell and the unbelievers to paradise, but he will not.
In the same way, he can, tomorrow, decide to set the sun at the place of the moon, and conversely, but he will not.

Ezactly, and He can easily turn a staff to a snake

God has endowed the universe with unchangeable laws, and this is the real sign (proof) of his existence.

Really, then please explain to me

a person falls from the first floor and dies
a person falls from the 10 floor and have no scratch

where your physical laws fits in here?

I guess the law is, if you fall from the 10th floor you die, you can go and try it now if you wish, however Allah changed that law almost every day.

Why is that bro?

I tell you why, because Allah does what He wants when He wants

"the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it is comprehensible"- A. Einstein

I prefer verses from the Quran bro not by some infidels

Lastly, there are many signs of God everywhere around us. There are signs of God in the nature, and the Quran also contains signs.

I may ask then , do you need a sign for yourself or you are just worried about the disbelievers?

But all these signs cannot contradict themselves.

I guess they must contradict your physical laws

A sign in the Quran where it is said that a staff can be made to move like a snake is in contradiction with what we know of the physical laws about a staff.

Yeh , that is the physical laws enforced on us, therefore a sign can?t be a sign unless it violates these laws, clear and simple bro, you started to be a time waster, sorry

Therefore, I prefer see it as a metaphor.

Good for you

That?s the way I choose the best interpretations, according to my limited scientific knowledge, and my limited understanding of the Quran.

Keep it for yourself then due to the limitations you have, but thanks anyway for discussing it with me

The real fantasy is to believe that, in the ancient days the people though like us today.

Then prove to me that they didn?t think like us today

I don?t really know what you mean by that we are not comparing every thing between us and them bro, we only looking at the magic issue, please don?t confuse the subject

What I meant really is this I care less about those old people other than what Allah told me because I won?t take a human witness regarding divine matters and Allah is there to give witness about His matters, so in this matter we only discussing magic now and then, and I see it the same exactly now and then and in the future, the difference is just new tricks they learn

See what I have quoted in my previous post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6198.msg96637#msg96637

Please bro just bring the quote here, I?m not a fan of jumping between posts

I agree the word ?bewitched? is a good translation of mashura (same root as sihr).

Here is the meaning of this word To bewitch = ?To place under one's power by or as if by magic; cast a spell over. To captivate completely, entrance.?

It is indeed the main effect of sihr that to make people bewitched. Sihr designates powerful discourses that bewitch people.

Ok

When the disbelievers accused Muhammad of being bewitched, it means that, according to them, he has been placed under the power of some bewitcher, that he is under bewitchery.

i.e. the Quran is not from God and is ILLUSIONED by Mohammad, i.e it is Sihr by Mohammad

But when they say his discourse (God?s revelations) is sihr, it is not exactly the same. There, it means that Muhammad is the bewitcher, the one who tries to deceive people by bewitching discourses.

It means for me that Mohammad is a Sahir i.e. what he brought was Sihr, i.e. what brought to them was AN ILLUSION

Read again

Well I don?t get your point, in fact 3443 is one of the reasons Allah changed His laws regarding sending unnatural Signs to the people as He told us in 1759

and .

Again 1117 is irrelevant to this discussion about magic

The disbelievers said there that the discourse according to which they can be sent to hell was lie and enchantment.

Neither 3443 nor 1117 told us that the believers said anything, if you mean the other verse ?Mashura? then they said that Mohammad is bewitched and this means the Quran is not a real sign but an illusion ?SIHR?

When they are in hell, God says them ?Is this really enchantment? ?

Sorry where did He say that? I need the verse please

So, yes, it is about hell,

Good then, see it is not about deceitful speech

about the discourse according to which the hell exists which they have deemed to be lie and enchantment.

Peace

wow, now it is about aother thing, two different things indeed, thanks for the confusion

Salam

lovelymoslems

peace

When the miracles/ayahs are being narrated to Muhammad, is he thinking 'hmm these miracles must be allegories'

Not Muhammad, its U

prashant_kumar

Peace JM and others.

I am sorry, but I do not find this explanation convincing.

My explanation may also not be correct even. It is God who knows the best why He split the sea for Moses and denies to do anything like that for Muhammad. If you are not convinced you can leave it.

And what are you willing to prove, with that ?

I mentioned it in my earlier post. In response to that you asked for a verse from the Quran that can prove that Muhammad really had a wish to have a sign demanded by the people. Can you explain why he had such a wish?

You are not really answering my question.
I was asking you why the Quran is a miracle, and you are replying about the (alledged) achievements of Muhammad?

I have actually pointed the reasons why I consider it a Miracle. If you do not think that it is a miracle, you can show us the reasons. You then are to demonstrate the following things.

Quran can be composed by a man like Muhammad.
Any one in future may also compose a poetry like it or even a better one.

And how do you understand the following verse (which is about a scripture) ?
Say ?Then bring forth a scripture from God that is better in guidance so I may follow it, if you are truthful.?

OK. I can not make a stick move like a serpent, or split the sea into huge mountains as Moses did. But I am receiving a Book of guidance. If you can produce a better book, I shall follow it. This is my miracle. You have better poets than I am. Actually I am not a poet at all. You all know me, my past. Then gather all your established and renowned poets and try. You think you have what has been left from Moses. Take help from that too if you want. This is a miracle by which God guides me as Moses was guided by God through the sea. Moses was not a magician, yet the signs bestowed upon him excelled the magicians of his time. I am similarly not a poet. Let your poets excel the signs bestowed upon me.

lovelymoslems

I have actually pointed the reasons why I consider it a Miracle. If you do not think that it is a miracle, you can show us the reasons. You then are to demonstrate the following things.

Quran can be composed by a man like Muhammad.
Any one in future may also compose a poetry like it or even a better one.

Al Quran is Muhammad's words not Allah, but as his words is spirit we believe its Allah's. Its possible someone can write better than now as he was a prophet.

wildguest1956

First, what I have said is that Allah does not change his way in that He does not help his messengers to convince the unbelievers through miracles (supernatural events).??

He did change His ways regarding that subject and He even told us about it in the Quran

And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully We only send the Signs by way of terror.

(59)

-> Here we go again and again, Allah is answering the question asked by the disbelievers ?Why Allah didn?t send down a sort of rabbit out of the hat sign to Mohammad ? And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false?, Allah even gave us an example ? We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully?, an important note in this verse is this Allah is telling us that the signs were sent not really to support His messengers rather to SCARE THE PEOPLE ? We only send the Signs by way of terror?, what clear and straight answer you want more than that?, I hope you take Allah answer over Iblis answer otherwise you will be Mushrik.

Your translation of is flawed.
You have not translated the word bi (with) before the word ayat, and you have translated the word ayat (sign) with the word ?miracle? though the context is not about miracles. In particular, there was nothing miraculous regarding the she-camel.

Here is MSA?s one

And nothing prevented/prohibited us that (E) We send with the verses/evidences except that the first/beginners lied/denied/falsified with it, and We gave/brought Thamud the (F) camel manifest/clearly visible to the eye and understanding/clear evidence , so they caused injustice with it, and We do not sent with the verses/evidences/signs except frightening.

The preceding verses say that the idolatrous nations are eventually destructed.

Here is now my rendition of the verse

And nothing prohibited Us that We may send with the signs except that the earlier people denied them. And We gave Thamud the she-camel as one which made matters evident, but they did her wrong. And We do not send with the signs but as a warning .

Indeed, as we can see in other verses, the signs associated with the she-camel have been ignored by the Thamud, and they were eventually destroyed.

but He has chosen to endow the world he has created with unchangeable laws.

sorry the physical laws around us keep changing every day, look at the natural disasters that happens where children die who committed no sin yet, would you consider that to be a change in Allah laws?

Natural disasters are among the laws God has endowed the universe with.

Peace

matinbhagat

Peace sister Samia,
but your last post about how the new knowledge is always confirmed(from generation to generation) by God's words in the quran was touching and highly fruitful.Thank you for the post.

He is Allah knower of the unseen and the open....and there is no God but He!

Salam to all on this thread.

wildguest1956

I am sorry, but I do not find this explanation convincing.

My explanation may also not be correct even. It is God who knows the best why He split the sea for Moses and denies to do anything like that for Muhammad. If you are not convinced you can leave it.

I strongly suggest you to read this book
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/kt/KT.htm

It shall help you understand my view.

And what are you willing to prove, with that ?

I mentioned it in my earlier post. In response to that you asked for a verse from the Quran that can prove that Muhammad really had a wish to have a sign demanded by the people. Can you explain why he had such a wish?

I do not see in the verse that Muhammad wished God sent him a miracle.
Yet, it is true (and it is oft-repeated in the Quran) that Muhammad was deeply grieved by the rejection of his message.

You are not really answering my question.
I was asking you why the Quran is a miracle, and you are replying about the (alledged) achievements of Muhammad?

I have actually pointed the reasons why I consider it a Miracle. If you do not think that it is a miracle, you can show us the reasons. You then are to demonstrate the following things.

Quran can be composed by a man like Muhammad.
Any one in future may also compose a poetry like it or even a better one.

Indeed, I am not sure we can state that the Quran is a miracle (something supernatural).
Yet, it is undoubtedly a sign (a message) from God.

And I am not sure the Quran is inimitable in style, as it is said to be in clear Arabic language.

The challenge ?bring something like it? is, according to me, misunderstood.

The Quran was a very powerful discourse. When Muhammad was preaching it, many people have seen in it the truth from God. He was disturbing many established orders.

However, the disbelievers sometimes accused Muhammad of having fabricated the Quran. According to their claim, Muhammad would have been an imposter, making people believe that he speaks in the name of god to gain power over them, like many ones (among the idolaters) have done.

What did he answer them? He challenged these people to do the same as he, that is, to fabricate a discourse as powerful as the Quran, claiming it is from God, to recruit people and gain power.

Obviously they could never do that, because the very strength of the Quran is that it could not be hijacked to serve the vested interests of some leaders. The Quran could not be the word of some imposter; it could only be the word of God, because of that.

And how do you understand the following verse (which is about a scripture) ?
Say ?Then bring forth a scripture from God that is better in guidance so I may follow it, if you are truthful.?

OK. I can not make a stick move like a serpent, or split the sea into huge mountains as Moses did. But I am receiving a Book of guidance. If you can produce a better book, I shall follow it. This is my miracle. You have better poets than I am. Actually I am not a poet at all. You all know me, my past. Then gather all your established and renowned poets and try. You think you have what has been left from Moses. Take help from that too if you want. This is a miracle by which God guides me as Moses was guided by God through the sea. Moses was not a magician, yet the signs bestowed upon him excelled the magicians of his time. I am similarly not a poet. Let your poets excel the signs bestowed upon me.

You have not got my point.

For me, the verse proves that the signs given to Moses in are nothing but words (a scripture); they are not miracles.

Peace

Samia

Peace sister Samia,
but your last post about how the new knowledge is always confirmed(from generation to generation) by God's words in the quran was touching and highly fruitful.Thank you for the post.

He is Allah knower of the unseen and the open....and there is no God but He!

Salam to all on this thread.

Salaam mtinbhagat

Thanks for the kind words. May Allah increase our knowledge.

andy

Salaam all,

those of you against miracles, explain to me these verses

We supported Moses with nine profound miracles - ask the Children of Israel. When he went to them, Pharaoh said to him, "I think that you, Moses, are bewitched."

He said, "You know full well that no one can manifest these except, obviously, the Lord of the heavens and the earth. I think that you, Pharaoh, are doomed."

Recall that Moses sought water for his people. We said, "Strike the rock with your staff." Whereupon, twelve springs gushed out therefrom. The members of each tribe knew their own water. Eat and drink from GOD's provisions, and do not roam the earth corruptingly.

Don't confuse the law of this planet with the law of the Almighty

The Initiator of the heavens and the earth to have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.

Are you challenging God's omnipotence by limiting him to the laws of YOUR planet?

I am sorry if I miss it but has somebody addressed the above questions from Imran K? I have read from page 2

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6198.msg96558#msg96558

until the last page but have not seen somebody addressed the questions directly.