Not another possible solution - just a different approach to understanding
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Peace Natu,
It is great to see you back on the forum. I think that you make some excellent analogies and observations. Your analogy explains the huge progress that was made very rapidly in our understanding of the great reading as a result of the Internet connecting us. We should take this "virtual" model and implement it in the physical world with our family and communities.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace.
Thank you Ayman for your kind words, and its great to be back. With regards to concerns about whether "man made" things can be used as analogies to understand concepts in our great reading, I would like to highlight the following passage
23 - Allatheena yu/minoona bialghaybiwayuqeemoona alssalata wamimma razaqnahumyunfiqoona
The highlighted portion is repeated numerous times in our great reading immediatly after reference is made to SLW. The word "yunfiqoon" is often translated as "spend" however, IMHO, it appears to be more closely translated as "use". So I translate the above passage as follows
23 - And those who (have) trust with (in) the unseen and maintain the connection and use (yunfiqoona) from (mimma) our (hum) /prodivded (things).
We are told to use what we have been given, not to just spend what we have been given (which limits this passage to the use of money only, as shown in common traslations such as
Yusuf Ali Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
Pickthal Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;
Shakir Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
Khalifa who believe in the unseen, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), and from our provisions to them, they give to charity.Although man claims that he created things like the internet, and that anything not natural is categorised as "man made" or "manufactured", it the God that has provided these things to us.
Can we say that the God didn't provide the internet to each one of us? We are told to use what we have been given, not simply consume. You can consume/spend a can of beans, but you can also use it to realise how powerful the God is if he can use us human beings to create that can of beans.
Therefore, my opinion is that we are not doing anything wrong by using what we've been given to understand our great reading. Its not a book that is separate from everythingwe have today, it is written with acknowledgement to the changes man would make to the world.
I personally reached an understanding through using the internet as an analogy, but somebody else could reach the same understanding by using a car, tree or fork to reach the same understaidng. It all depends on how the God shows signs to every one of us.
As for flaws in our analogies, our guidance comes solely from the creator, so there no right or wrong analogy to use, its the right or wrong intention that matters, the God delivers signs and guidance with justice.
Peace.
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Peace be upon you Natu and all,
As has already been said, great to have you back!
Regarding the analogy of the computer, It is a great one. However, I have a different approach I would like yuo all to consider. Rather than "connection" I view the process of "salaat" as "Programming".
The question was asked of the people in the fire as to what led them to the fire, and teh very first respons is that they were not of those who maintained salaat. God's message is about behavior shaping. Salaat is that process that shapes our behavior and in turn prevents us from evil/shameful deeds.
Salaat is programming. Only problem is there are HACKERS out there that want to hack into our NAFS and program us to carry out thier programs. So we must guard our programs.
Salaat is to REMEMBER, and a program allows the computer to remember what to do. In fact, a program ORDERS the computer to do a certain thing...just like Shuiab
"O shuiab, does your salaat ORDER YOU to......"
"O computer, does your program order you..."
Thank you Natu for bringing this analogy, I will go through the verses again and see if I can use the computer analogy on all of them from my position.
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Peace be upon you,
Also, the programming we do is to remove the virus's and put the atributes of the God in our computer(nafs). The computer/nafs will carry out the program for us, just like the garden carries out the process after we plant the seeds.
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Selaam all,
I really like these anologies, but it is also funny and a good way to try to explain something using analogies."O shuiab, does your salaat ORDER YOU to......"
"O computer, does your program order you..."
Its a good one brother idolfree1, but i must admit I laughed when i read that.
Here is another one, Salat is the antivirus (Kaspersky ;D), which cleans the program (islam) from all impurities and leaves only that which is good that which is ISLAM so that us (hardwares (HDD, RAM, CPU and everything else) can function properly. ;D
Peace all,
FJ -
Peace be upon you FJ,
I really like these anologies, but it is also funny and a good way to try to explain something using analogies.
They appeal to the "right brain" which unifies things, rather than the left brain which seperates things into parts.
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"O shuiab, does your salaat ORDER YOU to......""O computer, does your program order you..."
Its a good one brother idolfree1, but i must admit I laughed when i read that.
Thats fine ) As long as the similarities are still made, no problem having fun at the same time )
Here is another one, Salat is the antivirus (Kaspersky ), which cleans the program (islam) from all impurities and leaves only that which is good that which is ISLAM so that us (hardwares (HDD, RAM, CPU and everything else) can function properly.
Its nice but when we put it in the whole picture, it is my opinion that program would be better. Salaat is followed by zakaat MAN times to show the connection of salaat and purification(zakaat). We are told in chapter 91 that what we are purifying is the NAFS, not islam. When we purify the NAFS, islam will be clear as day.
But there is more that I have to clarify so I will stop here. But please feel free to follow your understanding all the way through and we can compare the two and see what we come up with.
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Peace all,
Interesting analogies !
I agree with brother Kyle that salat is not just connection but "learning from the connection" or "programming" also.
Hence programming = learning from connection.
I would add that in addition to connection and programming, salat also encompasses EXECUTION of the program (the "following closely" aspect of salat in addition to "turning towards" or IMPLEMENTATION of what is LEARNED from the CONNECTION. "Sujood" (physical and non physical) signifies that aspect. In addition to that, all the above are to be performed in a HUMBLE manner. "Rukoo" (physical and non physical) signifies that aspect.
How I would differ from brother Kyle's interpretation of salat is that IMHO salat is not ONLY programming but connection + programming + execution of program, all in a humble manner.
IMHO brother Ayman's interpretation of salat as "learning connection" lacks the execution/implementation/obedience aspect.
Hence salat = connection + learning or programming + execution or implementation or obedience (sujood) all done in a humble manner (rukoo)
To clarify, by "salat" in this post I mean only the "timed salat" of the mumineen.
Peace
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Peace brother Tanveer,
IMHO brother Ayman's interpretation of salat as "learning connection" lacks the execution/implementation/obedience aspect.
Hence salat = connection + learning or programming + execution or implementation or obedience (sujood) all done in a humble manner (rukoo)I agree with you that the execution/implementation/obedience is conveyed by "sujud".
The "learning connection" is two-way. On the other hand, "sujud"/obedience is a result of "salat"/learning connection so the relation is one of cause ("salat" and effect ("sujud". The reason why those two concepts are separate is that passages such as 3356 wouldn't make any sense if "sujud" is considered part of "salat".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace be upon you Tanveer,
Interesting analogies !
I agree with brother Kyle that salat is not just connection but "learning from the connection" or "programming" also.
Hence programming = learning from connection.
Just to clarify and make sure we are on same page, I have salaat as the process of programming the subconcious/Spirit(nafs). The "connection" in this process is connecting of the WILL(the active part of consciousness) with the Life Force (Ruh Ul Qudus) which is the energetic part of the Nafs(subconcious/spirit).
I would add that in addition to connection and programming, salat also encompasses EXECUTION of the program (the "following closely" aspect of salat in addition to "turning towards" or IMPLEMENTATION of what is LEARNED from the CONNECTION. "Sujood" (physical and non physical) signifies that aspect. In addition to that, all the above are to be performed in a HUMBLE manner. "Rukoo" (physical and non physical) signifies that aspect.
In my understanding, the "folowing closely" aspect is covered by the fact that what we are doing is programming the Gods attributes as our behavior, that is emulating the God, or following closely the example of GOD. 'Turning towards" fits the same way. We turn towards the God by actively programming our behavior to reflect the God's attributes.
Regarding execution, I have that more under the second phase which is "zakaat" (purification). Salaat is like planting the seeds, zakaat is the process of growth (execution) that comes from the seeds properly cultivated.
How I would differ from brother Kyle's interpretation of salat is that IMHO salat is not ONLY programming but connection + programming + execution of program, all in a humble manner.
IMHO brother Ayman's interpretation of salat as "learning connection" lacks the execution/implementation/obedience aspect.
Hence salat = connection + learning or programming + execution or implementation or obedience (sujood) all done in a humble manner (rukoo)
To clarify, by "salat" in this post I mean only the "timed salat" of the mumineen.
Respected. I differ slightly based on what I wrote above.
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Peace be upon you brother Ayman,
I agree with you that the execution/implementation/obedience is conveyed by "sujud".
The "learning connection" is two-way. On the other hand, "sujud"/obedience is a result of "salat"/learning connection so the relation is one of cause ("salat" and effect ("sujud". The reason why those two concepts are separate is that passages such as 3356 wouldn't make any sense if "sujud" is considered part of "salat".
I dont know that i agree with salaat being cause and sujood being effect.
I have salaat being cause and zakaat being effect. (i.e. Maintain the programming and bring forth purification of the subconcious).
Sujood = hearing and obeying. We must sujood even before we beging programming(salaat). We have to hear and obey the teaching to take control of our own NAFS, so I cant see this as the effect of salaat. Once we "hear and obey", then we must then take the teachings into our spirit by the process of programing the nafs(salaat).
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Peace brother Ayman,
I agree with you that the execution/implementation/obedience is conveyed by "sujud".
The "learning connection" is two-way. On the other hand, "sujud"/obedience is a result of "salat"/learning connection so the relation is one of cause ("salat" and effect ("sujud". The reason why those two concepts are separate is that passages such as 3356 wouldn't make any sense if "sujud" is considered part of "salat".
Thank you for the reference to 3356. That is why I had clarified in my post that by "salat" I meant the "timed salat" of the believers/mumineen. I think that depending on the context "salat" can mean slightly different things. In the context of mumineen ---> Allah, I believe that "sujud" is associated with "salat" when Allah talks about the timed salat of the believers/mumineen. Reference 4102.
In my understanding "salat" would be the cause, "sujud" would be its execution/obedience, and "zakat" would be the effect (in the context of the timed salat of the mumineen).
Peace,
Tanveer
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Peace brother Kyle,
Just to clarify and make sure we are on same page, I have salaat as the process of programming the subconcious/Spirit(nafs). The "connection" in this process is connecting of the WILL(the active part of consciousness) with the Life Force (Ruh Ul Qudus) which is the energetic part of the Nafs(subconcious/spirit).
I agree that "salaat" is a process. "salaat" would be a process of programming only in the context of the timed salaat of the believers. The process in that context would also include "sujud" or execution/implementation of the program.
In the context of 3356, however, "salaat" would not be a process of programming (Allah does not need any programming !), but would be support/allegiance towards the prophet.
Regarding execution, I have that more under the second phase which is "zakaat" (purification). Salaat is like planting the seeds, zakaat is the process of growth (execution) that comes from the seeds properly cultivated.
I would differ slightly that in the context of the "timed salaat" of the believers, "zakaat" would be the effect of the "salaat", and not the execution.
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Peace be upon you Tanveer,
IF1
Just to clarify and make sure we are on same page, I have salaat as the process of programming the subconcious/Spirit(nafs). The "connection" in this process is connecting of the WILL(the active part of consciousness) with the Life Force (Ruh Ul Qudus) which is the energetic part of the Nafs(subconcious/spirit).I agree that "salaat" is a process. "salaat" would be a process of programming only in the context of the timed salaat of the believers. The process in that context would also include "sujud" or execution/implementation of the program.
In the context of 3356, however, "salaat" would not be a process of programming (Allah does not need any programming !), but would be support/allegiance towards the prophet.
I have it this way
(3356) That truly God and His controllers program upon the prophet. You, you those who believed, program upon him(the prophet) and "sallimoo tasleeman". (I left the last part untranslated because I have not found a satisfactory translation.)
The "prophet" is within you, within your subconscious where all information is kept. The God and Its forces of control program the subconscious and the believers should be active in the same process. There is nothing in the verse implying that the God needs programming. The God is the programmer, through the malaika. If we submit our will to God's will, we fall in line with that process.
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Regarding execution, I have that more under the second phase which is "zakaat" (purification). Salaat is like planting the seeds, zakaat is the process of growth (execution) that comes from the seeds properly cultivated.I would differ slightly that in the context of the "timed salaat" of the believers, "zakaat" would be the effect of the "salaat", and not the execution.
I dont see multiple salaats, only the timed salaat at dawn and dusk.
I will study further to see if I can clarify my understanding.
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Peace brother Kyle,
Thank you for sharing your understanding.
I dont see multiple salaats, only the timed salaat at dawn and dusk.
I will study further to see if I can clarify my understanding.
I did not imply multiple salaats and agree with timed salaat of the believers only being twice daily at dawn and dusk. What I meant was that "zakaat"/purification is a general effect of the twice daily timed salaat of the believers. In your previous post you stated your understanding of "zakaat" being the execution of "salaat". How my understanding differs is that "zakaat" is the resultant effect of "salaat" and not its execution.
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Peace be upon you Tanveer,
I did not imply multiple salaats and agree with timed salaat of the believers only being twice daily at dawn and dusk. What I meant was that "zakaat"/purification is a general effect of the twice daily timed salaat of the believers. In your previous post you stated your understanding of "zakaat" being the execution of "salaat".
Sorry, I thought you were saying thee were multiple definitions for salaat, meaning that there was a timed salaat, then there was something other than that.
How my understanding differs is that "zakaat" is the resultant effect of "salaat" and not its execution.
I also agree that zakaat is the effect of the salaat(cause). I think I may have misread what was written.
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Peace upon you,
As per my understanding, I don't think that there is any timed <salat>. I see it as an ongoing process, taking place in the major part of our waking time.
Now, to illustrate what this process <iqamat as-salat> means, I will use the very example of <our search for understanding as-salat>. What we are trying to do is to get this thing "straight", avoiding contradictions and errors in our understanding We are trying to straighten (=iqamat) our relation (=as-salat) with this arabic word "as-salat".
Basically, we should straighten our relations with the world around and within. We have to straighten our relations with people, with nature, with our body, our soul (nafs), and ultimately straighten our relation with our creator.
This process is done any time during the day-time and parts of the night. It includes meeting with people, resolving problems, thinking, meditating, making business, building... Everything we do should be based on "sound" relations, not on some screwed guessing.
Surely, knowing the good formula and implementing it are 2 separate things. Thus, <zakat> is the process of implementing what we have learned, in order to get some benefit and to grow.
From experience, you know that when one doesn't get things straight, many problems are to be expected. (jahannam or extreme stress)
This is but my understanding, it can be faulty since there are too many occurences of the word "salat" in the scripture. I would be glad to tackle any contradictions one at a time to get my understanding "straight" , but with patience because I can hardly have free time these days to participate in a "heated" debate. peace
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Easy someone. I like this analysis. Ive often thought that salat could mean something like what you write... handshake
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Peace be upon you Someone,
While I respect your line of reasoning I would disagree. I will bring the first verse of evidence into discussion
(245 "...from before the dawn's "salaat", and when you put your clothes/garments (on) from the noon/midday, and from after the dusk "salaat"...."
This verse describes two seperate events, one at dawn and one at dusk. If it was an ongoing thing, why the need to differentiate with the words "dawn" and "dusk"? Further, if this ongoing salaat was being used as markers for privacy, why did this standard change when describing noon time?
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Peace upon you idolfree1,
I think that verse 2458 is describing three private times, using 2 markers and a condition.
The 2 markers
1- "salat al-fajr" as per my understanding, it is simply refering the morning meeting when all the family or the community decides what to do during the day so as to co-ordinate their actions. (there was no phones, tv, radio or newspapers...). So before the time of this meeting, people are sleeping or in intimacy, thus others should ask for permission to meet them.
2- "salat al-ishae" same as the morning meeting, there is an evening meeting. And people should ask for permission to meet with people after that meeting, because they are relaxing and maybe have took off their clothes.
The condition
I don't think that "aththahira" refers to noon, instead it refers to a discret place where one can take off his clothes or change it without being seen by other. In this case too one should ask for permission before entering such a place.
This condition can happen many times during the day, not only once when taking a bath, when changing clothes, when going to the WC...
I hope this has clarified my point.