Not another possible solution - just a different approach to understanding
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Peace be upon you brother Ayman,
I agree with you that the execution/implementation/obedience is conveyed by "sujud".
The "learning connection" is two-way. On the other hand, "sujud"/obedience is a result of "salat"/learning connection so the relation is one of cause ("salat" and effect ("sujud". The reason why those two concepts are separate is that passages such as 3356 wouldn't make any sense if "sujud" is considered part of "salat".
I dont know that i agree with salaat being cause and sujood being effect.
I have salaat being cause and zakaat being effect. (i.e. Maintain the programming and bring forth purification of the subconcious).
Sujood = hearing and obeying. We must sujood even before we beging programming(salaat). We have to hear and obey the teaching to take control of our own NAFS, so I cant see this as the effect of salaat. Once we "hear and obey", then we must then take the teachings into our spirit by the process of programing the nafs(salaat).
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Peace brother Ayman,
I agree with you that the execution/implementation/obedience is conveyed by "sujud".
The "learning connection" is two-way. On the other hand, "sujud"/obedience is a result of "salat"/learning connection so the relation is one of cause ("salat" and effect ("sujud". The reason why those two concepts are separate is that passages such as 3356 wouldn't make any sense if "sujud" is considered part of "salat".
Thank you for the reference to 3356. That is why I had clarified in my post that by "salat" I meant the "timed salat" of the believers/mumineen. I think that depending on the context "salat" can mean slightly different things. In the context of mumineen ---> Allah, I believe that "sujud" is associated with "salat" when Allah talks about the timed salat of the believers/mumineen. Reference 4102.
In my understanding "salat" would be the cause, "sujud" would be its execution/obedience, and "zakat" would be the effect (in the context of the timed salat of the mumineen).
Peace,
Tanveer
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Peace brother Kyle,
Just to clarify and make sure we are on same page, I have salaat as the process of programming the subconcious/Spirit(nafs). The "connection" in this process is connecting of the WILL(the active part of consciousness) with the Life Force (Ruh Ul Qudus) which is the energetic part of the Nafs(subconcious/spirit).
I agree that "salaat" is a process. "salaat" would be a process of programming only in the context of the timed salaat of the believers. The process in that context would also include "sujud" or execution/implementation of the program.
In the context of 3356, however, "salaat" would not be a process of programming (Allah does not need any programming !), but would be support/allegiance towards the prophet.
Regarding execution, I have that more under the second phase which is "zakaat" (purification). Salaat is like planting the seeds, zakaat is the process of growth (execution) that comes from the seeds properly cultivated.
I would differ slightly that in the context of the "timed salaat" of the believers, "zakaat" would be the effect of the "salaat", and not the execution.
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Peace be upon you Tanveer,
IF1
Just to clarify and make sure we are on same page, I have salaat as the process of programming the subconcious/Spirit(nafs). The "connection" in this process is connecting of the WILL(the active part of consciousness) with the Life Force (Ruh Ul Qudus) which is the energetic part of the Nafs(subconcious/spirit).I agree that "salaat" is a process. "salaat" would be a process of programming only in the context of the timed salaat of the believers. The process in that context would also include "sujud" or execution/implementation of the program.
In the context of 3356, however, "salaat" would not be a process of programming (Allah does not need any programming !), but would be support/allegiance towards the prophet.
I have it this way
(3356) That truly God and His controllers program upon the prophet. You, you those who believed, program upon him(the prophet) and "sallimoo tasleeman". (I left the last part untranslated because I have not found a satisfactory translation.)
The "prophet" is within you, within your subconscious where all information is kept. The God and Its forces of control program the subconscious and the believers should be active in the same process. There is nothing in the verse implying that the God needs programming. The God is the programmer, through the malaika. If we submit our will to God's will, we fall in line with that process.
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Regarding execution, I have that more under the second phase which is "zakaat" (purification). Salaat is like planting the seeds, zakaat is the process of growth (execution) that comes from the seeds properly cultivated.I would differ slightly that in the context of the "timed salaat" of the believers, "zakaat" would be the effect of the "salaat", and not the execution.
I dont see multiple salaats, only the timed salaat at dawn and dusk.
I will study further to see if I can clarify my understanding.
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Peace brother Kyle,
Thank you for sharing your understanding.
I dont see multiple salaats, only the timed salaat at dawn and dusk.
I will study further to see if I can clarify my understanding.
I did not imply multiple salaats and agree with timed salaat of the believers only being twice daily at dawn and dusk. What I meant was that "zakaat"/purification is a general effect of the twice daily timed salaat of the believers. In your previous post you stated your understanding of "zakaat" being the execution of "salaat". How my understanding differs is that "zakaat" is the resultant effect of "salaat" and not its execution.
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Peace be upon you Tanveer,
I did not imply multiple salaats and agree with timed salaat of the believers only being twice daily at dawn and dusk. What I meant was that "zakaat"/purification is a general effect of the twice daily timed salaat of the believers. In your previous post you stated your understanding of "zakaat" being the execution of "salaat".
Sorry, I thought you were saying thee were multiple definitions for salaat, meaning that there was a timed salaat, then there was something other than that.
How my understanding differs is that "zakaat" is the resultant effect of "salaat" and not its execution.
I also agree that zakaat is the effect of the salaat(cause). I think I may have misread what was written.
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Peace upon you,
As per my understanding, I don't think that there is any timed <salat>. I see it as an ongoing process, taking place in the major part of our waking time.
Now, to illustrate what this process <iqamat as-salat> means, I will use the very example of <our search for understanding as-salat>. What we are trying to do is to get this thing "straight", avoiding contradictions and errors in our understanding We are trying to straighten (=iqamat) our relation (=as-salat) with this arabic word "as-salat".
Basically, we should straighten our relations with the world around and within. We have to straighten our relations with people, with nature, with our body, our soul (nafs), and ultimately straighten our relation with our creator.
This process is done any time during the day-time and parts of the night. It includes meeting with people, resolving problems, thinking, meditating, making business, building... Everything we do should be based on "sound" relations, not on some screwed guessing.
Surely, knowing the good formula and implementing it are 2 separate things. Thus, <zakat> is the process of implementing what we have learned, in order to get some benefit and to grow.
From experience, you know that when one doesn't get things straight, many problems are to be expected. (jahannam or extreme stress)
This is but my understanding, it can be faulty since there are too many occurences of the word "salat" in the scripture. I would be glad to tackle any contradictions one at a time to get my understanding "straight" , but with patience because I can hardly have free time these days to participate in a "heated" debate. peace
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Easy someone. I like this analysis. Ive often thought that salat could mean something like what you write... handshake
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Peace be upon you Someone,
While I respect your line of reasoning I would disagree. I will bring the first verse of evidence into discussion
(245 "...from before the dawn's "salaat", and when you put your clothes/garments (on) from the noon/midday, and from after the dusk "salaat"...."
This verse describes two seperate events, one at dawn and one at dusk. If it was an ongoing thing, why the need to differentiate with the words "dawn" and "dusk"? Further, if this ongoing salaat was being used as markers for privacy, why did this standard change when describing noon time?
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Peace upon you idolfree1,
I think that verse 2458 is describing three private times, using 2 markers and a condition.
The 2 markers
1- "salat al-fajr" as per my understanding, it is simply refering the morning meeting when all the family or the community decides what to do during the day so as to co-ordinate their actions. (there was no phones, tv, radio or newspapers...). So before the time of this meeting, people are sleeping or in intimacy, thus others should ask for permission to meet them.
2- "salat al-ishae" same as the morning meeting, there is an evening meeting. And people should ask for permission to meet with people after that meeting, because they are relaxing and maybe have took off their clothes.
The condition
I don't think that "aththahira" refers to noon, instead it refers to a discret place where one can take off his clothes or change it without being seen by other. In this case too one should ask for permission before entering such a place.
This condition can happen many times during the day, not only once when taking a bath, when changing clothes, when going to the WC...
I hope this has clarified my point.
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Peace brother Kyle,
Sujood = hearing and obeying. We must sujood even before we beging programming(salaat). We have to hear and obey the teaching to take control of our own NAFS, so I cant see this as the effect of salaat. Once we "hear and obey", then we must then take the teachings into our spirit by the process of programing the nafs(salaat).
You say "We have to hear and obey the teaching". So the "teaching/learning" must happen before "hear and obey", otherwise it is "hearing and obeying" nothing. So even from your own words, we see that teaching/learning happens first and then "hearing and obeying". I agree with that.
Next, you acknowledge that the process of programming is also "teaching" and you do describe it as "take the teachings" (which is the same thing as "learning". I agree with that. Indeed, teaching and programming are the same thing. In artificial intelligence teaching an intelligent agent is the same as programming an intelligent agent.
We are told in the great reading that "salat" (teaching/learning) can command things. Of course, hearing and obeying a command comes after a command is issued. We are also told that "musaleen" (people who are doing "salat" can be heedless/not paying attention to their "salat" (learning/teaching). So "salat" doesn't automatically result in "hearing and obeying"/"sujud". Thus, it is clear that "hearing and obeying"/"sujud" is the outcome of the proper "salat".
As for hearing and obeying, this is certainly not just show-off outward superficial "hearing and obeying" but encompasses internal "hearing and obeying" (in our self/"nafs". So separating those two is unnecessary.
I see "salat" and "zakat" as concurrent complementing processes. As one learns/teaches new better information, he is purified from/purifies old corrupt information. This is even what children do as new better information about the world around them replaces old bad info.
I think that "salat" is a mundane simple process that even babies normally do (1931). It is not a process that requires understanding of any rituals no more than it requires understanding of Kemitic philosophy. As such, information from any philosophy, science, book, empirical experience, etc. can be taken as an input to those learning and purification interconnected processes.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace be upon you brother Ayman,
You say "We have to hear and obey the teaching". So the "teaching/learning" must happen before "hear and obey", otherwise it is "hearing and obeying" nothing. So even from your own words, we see that teaching/learning happens first and then "hearing and obeying". I agree with that.
Let me try to clarify my position. The "teaching" I am speaking of is the proclamation(quran) of Universal Law, or the laws of Al Kitaab. Please note that I am not referring simply to the book that has been given the name "Al Quran", but to the proclamation of universal truths. So for example, one is a smoker and another proclaims to them that smoking is wrong and shows the studies that it causes cancer and many other problems. That is the "teaching" I am referring to. Another example would be someone telling you to be fair in weighing, etc.
Once you have confirmed a statement as truth, you then must use patience and salaat(programming) to change your NAFS to manifest this behavior. All behavior responses are automatic, and we have to now render the correct response as automatic.
Next, you acknowledge that the process of programming is also "teaching" and you do describe it as "take the teachings" (which is the same thing as "learning". I agree with that. Indeed, teaching and programming are the same thing. In artificial intelligence teaching an intelligent agent is the same as programming an intelligent agent.
Let me clarify. What I described above was the consciousness (the real SELF) witnessing truth from the teachings of the universe. Then the consciousness must use salaat to "teach/program" the animal within us, the subconscious. However while consciousness can WILL at anytime (I dont wan to smoke anymore), the subconcious is TIME BASED and canot accept what is WILLED a just any time, thats why you keep on smoking, or eating bad food, or whatever the case is for the individual.
We are told in the great reading that "salat" (teaching/learning) can command things.
Yes, because as I said, behavior is automatic. Your subconcious is always whispering to you your conditionings. For example, when you are walking down the street and start singing a song you heard over and over again. You did not CHOOSE to sing that song, you were COMMANDED to sing and it wasnt until you were halfway through the song until you realize what is going on. So we must REPROGRAM our NAFS(subconsicous) so that it commands us what we want, or to use a metaphor, we must plant the correct seeds for what we want to grow.
Of course, hearing and obeying a command comes after a command is issued.
Correct, see above. The God says that the conditrion of a people will not change UNTIL they change what is in thier subconscious(nafs).
We are also told that "musaleen" (people who are doing "salat" can be heedless/not paying attention to their "salat" (learning/teaching). So "salat" doesn't automatically result in "hearing and obeying"/"sujud". Thus, it is clear that "hearing and obeying"/"sujud" is the outcome of the proper "salat".
Yes, the example I gave above of the person singing a song that had been PROGRAMED in thier subconscious is a good example. The person was unaware that listening to the radio so much was effecting them. But think about this, the person DID still "HEAR and OBEY", it just wasn't the God that they "Heard and Obeyed", it was the radio.
As for hearing and obeying, this is certainly not just show-off outward superficial "hearing and obeying" but encompasses internal "hearing and obeying" (in our self/"nafs". So separating those two is unnecessary.
Yes, I absoultely agree. It is an understanding that comes to the intellect, from either within (intuition) or from outside proofs. But after we gain the proper understanding, we still have to "change what is in our NAFS" before the God will change our condition.
I see "salat" and "zakat" as concurrent complementing processes. As one learns/teaches new better information, he is purified from/purifies old corrupt information. This is even what children do as new better information about the world around them replaces old bad info.
I think that "salat" is a mundane simple process that even babies normally do (1931). It is not a process that requires understanding of any rituals no more than it requires understanding of Kemitic philosophy. As such, information from any philosophy, science, book, empirical experience, etc. can be taken as an input to those learning and purification interconnected processes.
I agree to an extent. What we are really dealing with here is the state of RECEPTIVITY of the human brain. Children up to age 7 are in thier most receptive stages, like sponges, so they are easily programmed. Yes, salaat is very simple. However, as we get older and the WILL starts to develop, receptivity is not as easily achieved. Advertisers who spend millions of dllars on commercials know how to take the WILL out of the picture by taking you to the GAMMA state and other methods, thats the only way someone will pay millions of dollars for a 30 minute commercial. So as we get older, we have to learn exactly how this works, we have to understand the brain waves of the human, we have to understand the CYCLES of the subconcious, which is why salaat is TIMED.
I am rushing to leave but I will revisit this tommorrow.
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Peace Kyle,
Let me try to clarify my position. The "teaching" I am speaking of is the proclamation(quran) of Universal Law, or the laws of Al Kitaab.
Is the Quran a Universal Truth or ONLY for Muslims (around a billion), knowing that other religious and non-religious communities (around 6 billion) exist along with their own man-made books?
Secondly, do you think the Quran is outdated in some of its functional historical laws overcoming our generation or do you think that every law in the Quran is for ALL TIMES? You've appreciatively demonstrated your sincerity, honesty and discussionary ethics and therefore, would like to know your thoughts in the same.
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Danish Is the Quran a Universal Truth or ONLY for Muslims (around a billion), knowing that other religious and non-religious communities (around 6 billion) exist along with their own man-made books?
So you haven't read AQ for yourself, i guess, not knowing this fundamental fact?
According to AQ, on judgement day, will only 'muslims' stand before God?
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Danish Is the Quran a Universal Truth or ONLY for Muslims (around a billion), knowing that other religious and non-religious communities (around 6 billion) exist along with their own man-made books?
So you haven't read AQ for yourself, i guess, not knowing this fundamental fact?
According to AQ, on judgement day, will only 'muslims' stand before God?
Kyle is something that you are not, as mentioned in previous post, so let him speak for himself and then I'll finish my job with crazy "ayatullahs".
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Kyle is something that you are not, as mentioned in previous post, so let him speak for himself and then I'll finish my job with crazy "ayatullahs".
FINISH your job? You can't even tell us why 'the fear of Allah is realistically, scientifically and logically incorrect', so please put finish aside and START your job. You'd have been fired a long time if this was a proper job.
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DanishLet me finish this REAL job first, before I start afresh
Good. I await your fresh start. Maybe then you can stop being the intellectual eunuch you've proven thus far to be.
By the very prophet of God, I'm voluntarily obeying the Quran, in that, it is repetitious and for all times, hence concentrate on the following, nothing else
Hold on, Everwhine. You're being a schizo again. I'm not sure who you think you are this week, but you've never been a supporter of AQ. Maybe a flashcard would help remind you of your personality schedule? Are you touring the East Asian religions next week?
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Danish (about Kyle)You've appreciatively demonstrated your sincerity, honesty and discussionary ethics and therefore, would like to know your thoughts in the same.
He has. So why on earth are YOU discussing with him? You havent answered a question sincerely in your life. You still have to answer all the questions I've given you, lol.
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Peace Kyle,
Since my post got distracted and diverted again by an itchy-bitchy intruder, I bring this back to your attention. Pardon me for this unbearable crises.
Let me try to clarify my position. The "teaching" I am speaking of is the proclamation(quran) of Universal Law, or the laws of Al Kitaab.
Is the Quran a Universal Truth or ONLY for Muslims (around a billion), knowing that other religious and non-religious communities (around 6 billion) exist along with their own man-made books?
Secondly, do you think the Quran is outdated in some of its functional historical laws overcoming our generation or do you think that every law in the Quran is for ALL TIMES? You've appreciatively demonstrated your sincerity, honesty and discussionary ethics and therefore, would like to know your thoughts in the same.
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Peace be upon you,
May peace be our foundation as we continue this dialouge.
IF1
Let me try to clarify my position. The "teaching" I am speaking of is the proclamation(quran) of Universal Law, or the laws of Al Kitaab.Danish
Is the Quran a Universal Truth or ONLY for Muslims (around a billion), knowing that other religious and non-religious communities (around 6 billion) exist along with their own man-made books?You first have to understand that I do not apply the word "quran" to a single book exclusively. The word "quran" means proclamation/reading. I would further clarify it as an announcement to mankind, weather spoken allowed or written down, or expressed through art or music. Now, the thing to be careful about is that the word "quran" by itself does not imply that the announcement/teaching/reading/proclamation you are getting is God's Truthful Teaching. Thats whay we have the verse that says something to the effect of "if you study the "quran" carefully you will know it is from the God if it has no contradictions in life experiments. ". Also remember the verse that says the rejectors will say "bring a quran(an announcement/teaching) other than this". The "this" in that verse is referring to a verifyable message of truth. I use the example of someone coming to your proclaiming not to smoke cigareetes because they will kill you. That was a "quran" and it is up to us then to study it carefully an dsee if it has contradictions, if not then it is from the God. So the enlightened ones from time to time weave these confirmed truths into metaphorical stories for the benefit of mankind under the God's direction. This is how we have some of the great compiling of teachings such as the book named "Quran", the Pert Em Hru (Book of coming forth awake by day), The I Ching texts, etc.
To address the next word in your question, "muslims", that is not a word to describe a RELIGIOUS SECT, that is a word to describe the character of a person. It means one is peaceful oriented, from the root word for peace s-l-m.
So to answer your question "Is the Quran a Universal Truth?"
Yes, if by "The Quran" you mean the verifyable teaching of the universe (Al Kitaab), then yes, it is a universal truth. The book you are referring to , I believe, is verifyable, but I dojnt claim to understand every single verse, so I don't KNOW, I only believe so. There is a big difference in believing and knowing. God wants us to KNOW.
or ONLY for Muslims (around a billion), knowing that other religious and non-religious communities (around 6 billion) exist along with their own man-made books?
Truth is indeed for the peaceful oriented(muslims), regardless of what SECT they have fallen into. The truth will bring them out of idolatry and sectarianism.
Secondly, do you think the Quran is outdated in some of its functional historical laws overcoming our generation or do you think that every law in the Quran is for ALL TIMES?
I will respond regarding the literal book that you are referring to and put aside my understanding of "quran for a moment. That which I understand and confrim from this text is absolutely NOT outdated and never will be. It is a text about HUMAN BEHAVIOR and changing it to submit to the Behavior ruled by GOD.
You've appreciatively demonstrated your sincerity, honesty and discussionary ethics and therefore, would like to know your thoughts in the same.
Thank you for the kind words. I hope you will continue to observe the same behavior from me consistently, and correct me when you don't, thats what community is all about. We come together to help each other grow spiritually, not to form a sectarian religion.