"those who believe and do good works" - 2:62 and 3:21

[nadeem]

Hi there,

I was thinking of this phrase and tried to figure out whether or not the interpretation which seems obvious to me is supported by the scripture. I wrote some notes and would appreciate some comments/advice

Notes on 321
If the reward for "Those who believe and do good works" is limited to ONLY the group with both qualities, then the reward in 321 for "Those who reject God's revelations and kill the prophets unjustly, and kill those who order justice from amongst the people." - should similarly be limited to the group which possess ALL the qualities.

Since this is obviously NOT the case; one must consider the option that "Those who believe and do good works" might refer to either (a)those who possess both qualities, or (b)those who possess at least one of the qualities.

However, one should also consider whether or not the first expression in this case is used to assign the object two distinct qualities - believeing and doing good; or two distinct qualities to two different objects(the believers vs the good-dooers), but rather two synonymous words(to believe/do good) assigned to one and the same object(those who).

As this is seen in the quran verse 3334, Where the expression "God's revelations and the wisdom" does NOT refer to the quran and som other revelation, but to the same object the quran. In the same way that God's revelations is wisdom, and Wisdom is what god reveals; can we say a believers is a good-doer and a good-doer is a believer?

I'm unsure. As a good-doer is a "muslim" - the one who has submitted/trying to live in harmony. And a "muslim" is not neccessary a "believer"(mumin). or?

Eureka! Maybe the expression "Those who believe and do good works" can be interpretated as "Those who are mumin and those who are muslim" ?

Please forgive me if my notes are poorly written or cryptic.

Nadeem

[wildguest1956]

Hi there,

I was thinking of this phrase and tried to figure out whether or not the interpretation which seems obvious to me is supported by the scripture. I wrote some notes and would appreciate some comments/advice

Notes on 321
If the reward for "Those who believe and do good works" is limited to ONLY the group with both qualities, then the reward in 321 for "Those who reject God's revelations and kill the prophets unjustly, and kill those who order justice from amongst the people." - should similarly be limited to the group which possess ALL the qualities.

Since this is obviously NOT the case; one must consider the option that "Those who believe and do good works" might refer to either (a)those who possess both qualities, or (b)those who possess at least one of the qualities.

However, one should also consider whether or not the first expression in this case is used to assign the object two distinct qualities - believeing and doing good; or two distinct qualities to two different objects(the believers vs the good-dooers), but rather two synonymous words(to believe/do good) assigned to one and the same object(those who).

As this is seen in the quran verse 3334, Where the expression "God's revelations and the wisdom" does NOT refer to the quran and som other revelation, but to the same object the quran. In the same way that God's revelations is wisdom, and Wisdom is what god reveals; can we say a believers is a good-doer and a good-doer is a believer?

I'm unsure. As a good-doer is a "muslim" - the one who has submitted/trying to live in harmony. And a "muslim" is not neccessary a "believer"(mumin). or?

Eureka! Maybe the expression "Those who believe and do good works" can be interpretated as "Those who are mumin and those who are muslim" ?

Please forgive me if my notes are poorly written or cryptic.

Nadeem

I have already thought about that.

I think "doing good works" is a immediate consequence of "believing" (iman).
Thus, IMHO, when God says the mumin will be rewarded, it actually means that the good-doers will be rewarded.

I explain why in this post http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0

Peace

[nadeem]

Hi JM -)

Thanks for the reply and the links -)

I think "doing good works" is a immediate consequence of "believing" (iman).
Thus, IMHO, when God says the mumin will be rewarded, it actually means that the good-doers will be rewarded.

I agree with you that "Doing good works" is an integral part of "believing". One cannot truly be a believer without out doing good works.

I believe that chapter 90 can help us a reach a firm conclusion as what a believer is

901 I swear by this land.
902 And you remain committed to this land.
903 And a father and what he begets.
904 We have created man to struggle.
905 Does he think that no one is able to best him?
906 He says "I spent so much money!"
907 Does he think that no one saw him?
908 Did We not make for him two eyes?
909 And a tongue and two lips?
9010 And We guided him to both paths?
9011 He should choose the better path.
9012 Do you know which is the better path?
9013 The freeing of slaves.
9014 Or the feeding on a day of great hardship.
9015 An orphan of relation.
9016 Or a poor person in need.
9017 Then he has become one of those who have believed, and exhort one another to patience, and exhort one another to kindness.
9018 Those are the people of happiness.
9019 As for those who rejected Our revelations, they are the people of misery.
9020 Upon them is a Fire closed over.

As far as I understand; The one who frees slaves, feeds the needy and the orphan; has already become of the believers.

It is clear to me that "The freeing and The feeding" are only two examples of what good work is. And that if anyone does any good other than that; he should be counted as one of the believers, right?

I notice that the verse did not say you have to believe in this or that to be a believer, but only mentions the doing of good works.

Nadeem

[unknownuser]

Hello All

the Quran actually told us about those unbelievers who will do good deeds, they are heading to hell indeed

so what JM said contradicts the Quran, because you may not be a God believer even if you do good deeds as the Quran told us

Salam

[unknownuser]

Hello All

the Quran actually told us about those unbelievers who will do good deeds, they are heading to hell indeed

so what JM said contradicts the Quran, because you may not be a God believer even if you do good deeds as the Quran told us

Salam

Salam AhmedBahgat, all,

I agree with you. I have a friend who does good deeds but he is an atheist. Everytime I think of him, the verses 1418 and 17103-105 pop up in my mind. Iman (believing in HIM only) and good deeds go hand in hand and this is stated in so many verses across the Quran. The belief is the absolute pre-requisite to validate the deeds nature-), however it is also very important to stress that believing in HIM only is NOT sufficient and would not qualify us for paradise and the proof the verses of those who believed in God but still could not make it to P. That's my understanding. And God the All-Migty knows best. PEace Myr.

Peace sister Myr

I agree totally with your understanding

Peace

[unknownuser]

Hello All

the Quran actually told us about those unbelievers who will do good deeds, they are heading to hell indeed

so what JM said contradicts the Quran, because you may not be a God believer even if you do good deeds as the Quran told us

Salam

Salam AhmedBahgat, all,

I agree with you. I have a friend who does good deeds but he is an atheist. Everytime I think of him, the verses 1418 and 17103-105 pop up in my mind. Iman (believing in HIM only) and good deeds go hand in hand and this is stated in so many verses across the Quran. The belief is the absolute pre-requisite to validate the deeds nature-), however it is also very important to stress that believing in HIM only is NOT sufficient and would not qualify us for paradise and the proof the verses of those who believed in God but still could not make it to P. That's my understanding. And God the All-Migty knows best. PEace Myr.

Just a quick note sister, the Quran also told us about what will happen to the good deeds of those unbelievers

Take care

[unknownuser]

peace

doing good deeds is just a start. Remember now those good deeds are nullified if one commits idol-worship.

[wildguest1956]

Hello All

the Quran actually told us about those unbelievers who will do good deeds, they are heading to hell indeed

so what JM said contradicts the Quran, because you may not be a God believer even if you do good deeds as the Quran told us

Salam

Peace Ahmed,

Could you quote the verses that prove your point ?

Peace

[unknownuser]

Hello All

the Quran actually told us about those unbelievers who will do good deeds, they are heading to hell indeed

so what JM said contradicts the Quran, because you may not be a God believer even if you do good deeds as the Quran told us

Salam

Peace Ahmed,

Peace bro

Could you quote the verses that prove your point ?
Peace

Sure but please this is not a debate, just say disagree at the end if you wish, I will provide enough info to prove my point, also I don?t have time to explain/repeat what I said unless you dispute what I said with a strong logic

For the people who has good morals and don?t believe in Allah message, I?m sorry for them, Allah told us in the Quran that the belief in Him is a requirement along with the good morals for the good deeds to be accepted

And whoever does good deeds whether male or female and he (or she) is a believer-- these shall enter the garden, and they shall not be dealt with a jot unjustly.

(124)

-> So from the above, Allah is clearly telling us about those who do good deeds ? And whoever does good deeds whether male or female?, then Allah narrow it down to only those believers who do good deeds ? and he (or she) is a believer?, obviously this is the condition for ? these shall enter the garden, and they shall not be dealt with a jot unjustly.?
-> What you should note above that, the existence of the condition ? ?, ? and he (or she) is a believer?, makes it obvious that there are those who do good deeds while they are not believers, this is 100% logical and proven in real life

The same condition is repeated again

Whoever does good whether male or female and he/she is a believer, We will most certainly make him live a happy life, and We will most certainly give them their reward for the best of what they did.

(97)

And again

And whoever desires the hereafter and strives for it as he ought to strive and he is a believer; (as for) these, their striving shall surely be accepted.

(19)

And again

And whoever does good works and he is a believer, he shall have no fear of injustice nor of the withholding of his due.

(112)

And again

Therefore whoever shall do of good deeds and he is a believer, there shall be no denying of his exertion, and surely We will write (It) down for him.

(94)

And again

Whoever does an evil, he shall not be recompensed (with aught) but the like of it, and whoever does good, whether male or female, and he is a believer, these shall enter the garden, in which they shall be given sustenance without measure.

(40)

-> Here is something very interesting, in 4040 we read about the bad doers, but Allah never said while they are believers, i.e. the law mentioned applies to all humans, which is ? Whoever does an evil, he shall not be recompensed (with aught) but the like of it,?, how fair is that?,

-> All bad doers must give account and pay for their dues. For the good doers who are believers , we can see how great the reward will be ? and whoever does good, whether male or female, and he is a believer , these shall enter the garden, in which they shall be given sustenance without measure.?, the condition is also clear ? ?, ? and he (or she) is a believer?.

We never read in the above verses about the good doers but disbelievers, but we know the above verses are talking indirectly about them so in another place we read what will happen to them.

15- Whoever desires this world's life and its finery, We will pay them in full their deeds therein, and they shall not be made to. suffer loss in respect of them.

16- These are they for whom there is nothing but fire in the hereafter, and what they wrought in it shall go for nothing, and of no effect and the deeds that they do!.

(15)
(16)

-> Very clear in 1115, they only desired this life and their good deeds will be paid in full in this life, because that is what they wanted ?Whoever desires this world's life and its finery, We will pay them in full their deeds therein, and they shall not be made to. suffer loss in respect of them.?, but unfortunately in the Hereafter they have no chance to be saved as we read in 1116

(23)

What I found interesting is this

To desire this life (which means a disbeliever), you will be rewarded in this life

To desire the hereafter (which means a believer), you will rewarded in this life and the hereafter

How dumb the disbelievers are?, no wonder they are the true losers.

Salam

[nadeem]

Hi brothers and sisters of all beliefs and opinions!

Thanks for joining the debate .

Here is a quick note. I will come with more as soon as I find the verses.

If belief is crucial for salvation, then how come the prophet is in 4914 DENYING the nomads to declare belief

"The Nomads said 'We have faith (A'manna).' Say 'You do not have faith; what you should say is, `We have Submitted (Aslamna),' until faith is established in your hearts.' If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful." (4914)

And
Whoever brings good, he shall have better than it; and they shall be secure from terror on the day.
Whoever brings a good deed, he shall have ten like it, and whoever brings an evil deed, he shall be recompensed only with the like of it, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.
Whoever brings good, he shall have better than it, and whoever brings evil, those who do evil shall not be rewarded (for) aught except what they did.

There is nothing about 'belief' in these verses. It's is clearly stated that good deeds, and good deeds alone will keep one safe from "terror on the day".

Nadeem.

[wildguest1956]

Hello All

the Quran actually told us about those unbelievers who will do good deeds, they are heading to hell indeed

so what JM said contradicts the Quran, because you may not be a God believer even if you do good deeds as the Quran told us

Salam

Could you quote the verses that prove your point ?
Peace

Sure but please this is not a debate, just say disagree at the end if you wish, I will provide enough info to prove my point, also I don?t have time to explain/repeat what I said unless you dispute what I said with a strong logic

Peace Ahmed,

Thanks for your generous explanations, but? you have not really answered my question?

You have told us about the fate of the believers who do good deeds (paradize), and of the unbelievers who do bad deeds (hell). Fine, but ?

What about the unbelievers who do good deeds ?
And, what about the believers who do bad deeds ?

Peace

[wildguest1956]

Hi brothers and sisters of all beliefs and opinions!

Thanks for joining the debate .

Here is a quick note. I will come with more as soon as I find the verses.

If belief is crucial for salvation, then how come the prophet is in 4914 DENYING the nomads to declare belief

"The Nomads said 'We have faith (A'manna).' Say 'You do not have faith; what you should say is, `We have Submitted (Aslamna),' until faith is established in your hearts.' If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful." (4914)

And
Whoever brings good, he shall have better than it; and they shall be secure from terror on the day.
Whoever brings a good deed, he shall have ten like it, and whoever brings an evil deed, he shall be recompensed only with the like of it, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.
Whoever brings good, he shall have better than it, and whoever brings evil, those who do evil shall not be rewarded (for) aught except what they did.

There is nothing about 'belief' in these verses. It's is clearly stated that good deeds, and good deeds alone will keep one safe from "terror on the day".

Nadeem.

So whoever does an atoms weight of good will see it. And whoever does an atoms weight of evil will see it.
Peace

[nadeem]

Hi Jm!

Thanks for the verse!

Nadeem

[unknownuser]

Hello All

the Quran actually told us about those unbelievers who will do good deeds, they are heading to hell indeed

so what JM said contradicts the Quran, because you may not be a God believer even if you do good deeds as the Quran told us

Salam

Could you quote the verses that prove your point ?
Peace

Sure but please this is not a debate, just say disagree at the end if you wish, I will provide enough info to prove my point, also I dont have time to explain/repeat what I said unless you dispute what I said with a strong logic

Peace Ahmed,

Thanks for your generous explanations, but you have not really answered my question

You have told us about the fate of the believers who do good deeds (paradize), and of the unbelievers who do bad deeds (hell). Fine, but

What about the unbelievers who do good deeds ?
And, what about the believers who do bad deeds ?

Peace

Peace bro

here we go again, same non sense and ilogical resplays

The verses are clearly talking indirectly about the disbelievers who do good deeds, bro a child will get that

this is my last comment to you regarding this subject, at least I will be busy responding to a logical question by nadeem unlike your silly logic

Salam

[nadeem]

A quick note for myself and those interested...

What you should note above that, the existence of the condition , and he (or she) is a believer, makes it obvious that there are those who do good deeds while they are not believers, this is 100% logical and proven in real life

In find this condition rather odd if believer and believing refers to accepting quran's divinity alone. I believe that it does not.

In the quran, a believer is one is secure and certain in his ways. The root alif-meem-num brings out many kinds of words some of which are
become/feel safe/secure, state of security/safety, trust, become quiet/tranquil in heart/mind, become free of expectation of evil or free of an object of dislike/hatred, promise/assurance of security/safety, become trustful/faithful/confident, to believe/acknowledge it, manifestation of humility/submission

And whoever does good works and he is a believer, he shall have no fear of injustice nor of the withholding of his due.

I do not wish to play grammar expert, for i am none. But I do want to learn why the above verse has been translated as "and he is a believer" and not "and he is certain". As far as i know, both are adjectives.
those who have studied arabic, if you could share your insight, id appreciate it.

Reasons as to why "certain" fits better is found in 1736 where are told to be certain before doing anything, that ecompasses both good deed and bad deeds.

But, even if believer is the right grammatical translation. The ingredients and definition of a believer includes certainty (based on investigation as per 391. And a person who has come to do a good deed after thoughtful consideration, why should he not be regarded as believer?

I do not think that "belief" is some kind of an "irreducible complexity" in which if only one ingredient is missing, the whole thing collapses. No. I am open, do not entirely sure, about one being "a believer" in many different levels, and all levels with their lacks. What hinders therefore a good-door from being accepted as a believer in one level?
Sure, he is not a full-believer, but who are? Who of us can do everything that the quran tells us to do? Most of us, me including, have problems upholding simple etiquette. Yet, we regards ourselves as believers. Who are we to decide wich lacks are acceptable and which are not?

The only thing that is irreducible in belief is what is irreducible in any structure its foundation; the doing of good deeds. I believe. All other ingredients can be grown and modified as experience allows.

Nadeem

[unknownuser]

If belief is crucial for salvation,

Peace

I provided enough Quran evidences that belief is crucial to salvation, however you may need to explain to me what is salvation to you

Is it not going to hell only?

Is it going to heaven only?

Is it going to heaven and at the same time avoiding hell?

then how come the prophet is in 4914 DENYING the nomads to declare belief

"The Nomads said 'We have faith (A'manna).' Say 'You do not have faith; what you should say is, `We have Submitted (Aslamna),' until faith is established in your hearts.' If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful." (4914)

It seems to me that many misunderstand this verse in addition to misunderstanding the difference between ?A Mumin? and ?A Muslim?, let me bring it in Arabic so I can respond to it

?The Arabs say We believe. Say You do not believe but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.?

(14)

-> Clear from the above that ?THE VERSE IS SPECIFIC TO THE ARABS AT THE TIME NOT ALL HUMANITY? when the Arabs said ?We Believed? Allah is advising them to say ?We Submit? because it is a higher level than belief and is proper for a believer to rely on Allah and submit after he/she believed already, it is strange that some think the above verse means it is one or the other i.e. ?To Believe? or ?To Submit?, there is no way the verse means that, it actually means that you can?t be a submitter without being a believer.

Here is Moses saying something similar to the above

?And Musa said O my people! if you believe in Allah, then rely on Him (alone) if you submit (to Allah).?

(84)

-> Obviously Moses is telling the Jews to be submitters, they need to rely on Allah AFTER they BELIEVED, therefore ?Muslimeen? can not be the same as ?Mumineen? unless the ?Mumineen? rely on Allah if they want to be ?Muslimeen? ie. ?Submitters?, i.e. they accept any thing in life ?good or bad? as being from Allah, like loosing a leg for example

And
Whoever brings good, he shall have better than it; and they shall be secure from terror on the day.
Whoever brings a good deed, he shall have ten like it, and whoever brings an evil deed, he shall be recompensed only with the like of it, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.
Whoever brings good, he shall have better than it, and whoever brings evil, those who do evil shall not be rewarded (for) aught except what they did.

There is nothing about 'belief' in these verses. It's is clearly stated that good deeds, and good deeds alone will keep one safe from "terror on the day".

Nadeem.

Firstly, the Quran must be understood as a whole not picj and choose what suits you or suits your man made god you took for yourself

Let me give a logical point

If in a location it says you need 1 & 2 for salvation and in another location it says you need 1 for salvation

What we need to do is combine the two to get the final result

i.e. we need 1 & 2 for salvation (going to heaven and avoiding hell at the same time)

Your argument is illogical anyway because how come those disbelievers use Allah words to prove their point?

1. In all these verses it seems to me that the rewards for those disbelievers will be in this life because the heaven was never mentioned unlike the other verses I posted

2. Logically speaking entering heaven means not entering hell, but ?Not entering hell? does not mean entering heaven, LOL, do you get my point?

Salam

[warner]

Peace be upon you

Peace Nadeem, JM

If I do not believe in God, Angels, Scriptures, Messengers and the Day of Judgment
but still manage to do good and avoid bad by the light of my judgment still will I be able to go to heaven?

[wildguest1956]

Hello All

the Quran actually told us about those unbelievers who will do good deeds, they are heading to hell indeed

so what JM said contradicts the Quran, because you may not be a God believer even if you do good deeds as the Quran told us

Salam

Could you quote the verses that prove your point ?
Peace

Sure but please this is not a debate, just say disagree at the end if you wish, I will provide enough info to prove my point, also I don?t have time to explain/repeat what I said unless you dispute what I said with a strong logic

Peace Ahmed,

Thanks for your generous explanations, but? you have not really answered my question?

You have told us about the fate of the believers who do good deeds (paradize), and of the unbelievers who do bad deeds (hell). Fine, but ?

What about the unbelievers who do good deeds ?
And, what about the believers who do bad deeds ?

Peace

Peace bro

here we go again, same non sense and ilogical resplays

The verses are clearly talking indirectly about the disbelievers who do good deeds, bro a child will get that

Salam

Indeed Ahmed, the verses you have quoted do not talk the disbelievers who do good deeds directly, and this is the problem.
You only got your conclusion via an illogical deduction.

Now, Why are you ignoring such verses as the following

So whoever does an atoms weight of good will see it.
And whoever does an atoms weight of evil will see it.

Peace

[wildguest1956]

Peace be upon you

Peace Nadeem, JM

If I do not believe in God, Angels, Scriptures, Messengers and the Day of Judgment
but still manage to do good and avoid bad by the light of my judgment still will I be able to go to heaven?

Peace warner

I suggest you to check out my post here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0

Fell free to ask any remaining question...

Peace

[unknownuser]

Indeed Ahmed, the verses you have quoted do not talk the disbelievers who do good deeds directly, and this is the problem.

Excuse me bro, if I say those who do good deeds while being beliver, means that there are those who do good deeds while being unbelievers, anyway it seems Heaven is only promised to those who do good deeds while being believers

You only got your conclusion via an illogical deduction.

LOL, nice refute

Now, Why are you ignoring such verses as the following

So whoever does an atoms weight of good will see it.
And whoever does an atoms weight of evil will see it.

Peace

Actually I hardly ignore any verses if I want to respond to it, but I do have a life and a busy one indeed so can't you give me sometime to do some other things then get back to you?, well how many verses and logics I posted to you and you never walked me through it to prove my non sense?

well you have no argument regarding 997-8, because it does not talk about salvation on the JD it only said whoever do good will see it and whoever do bad will see it, where the hell is salvation in here?

mister JM, we are talking about salvation on the JD, thank you

Cheers