"those who believe and do good works" - 2:62 and 3:21
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Hello All
the Quran actually told us about those unbelievers who will do good deeds, they are heading to hell indeed
so what JM said contradicts the Quran, because you may not be a God believer even if you do good deeds as the Quran told us
Salam
Could you quote the verses that prove your point ?
PeaceSure but please this is not a debate, just say disagree at the end if you wish, I will provide enough info to prove my point, also I don?t have time to explain/repeat what I said unless you dispute what I said with a strong logic
Peace Ahmed,
Thanks for your generous explanations, but? you have not really answered my question?
You have told us about the fate of the believers who do good deeds (paradize), and of the unbelievers who do bad deeds (hell). Fine, but ?
What about the unbelievers who do good deeds ?
And, what about the believers who do bad deeds ?Peace
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Hi brothers and sisters of all beliefs and opinions!
Thanks for joining the debate .
Here is a quick note. I will come with more as soon as I find the verses.
If belief is crucial for salvation, then how come the prophet is in 4914 DENYING the nomads to declare belief
"The Nomads said 'We have faith (A'manna).' Say 'You do not have faith; what you should say is, `We have Submitted (Aslamna),' until faith is established in your hearts.' If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful." (4914)
And
Whoever brings good, he shall have better than it; and they shall be secure from terror on the day.
Whoever brings a good deed, he shall have ten like it, and whoever brings an evil deed, he shall be recompensed only with the like of it, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.
Whoever brings good, he shall have better than it, and whoever brings evil, those who do evil shall not be rewarded (for) aught except what they did.There is nothing about 'belief' in these verses. It's is clearly stated that good deeds, and good deeds alone will keep one safe from "terror on the day".
Nadeem.
So whoever does an atoms weight of good will see it. And whoever does an atoms weight of evil will see it.
Peace -
Hello All
the Quran actually told us about those unbelievers who will do good deeds, they are heading to hell indeed
so what JM said contradicts the Quran, because you may not be a God believer even if you do good deeds as the Quran told us
Salam
Could you quote the verses that prove your point ?
PeaceSure but please this is not a debate, just say disagree at the end if you wish, I will provide enough info to prove my point, also I dont have time to explain/repeat what I said unless you dispute what I said with a strong logic
Peace Ahmed,
Thanks for your generous explanations, but you have not really answered my question
You have told us about the fate of the believers who do good deeds (paradize), and of the unbelievers who do bad deeds (hell). Fine, but
What about the unbelievers who do good deeds ?
And, what about the believers who do bad deeds ?Peace
Peace bro
here we go again, same non sense and ilogical resplays
The verses are clearly talking indirectly about the disbelievers who do good deeds, bro a child will get that
this is my last comment to you regarding this subject, at least I will be busy responding to a logical question by nadeem unlike your silly logic
Salam
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A quick note for myself and those interested...
What you should note above that, the existence of the condition , and he (or she) is a believer, makes it obvious that there are those who do good deeds while they are not believers, this is 100% logical and proven in real life
In find this condition rather odd if believer and believing refers to accepting quran's divinity alone. I believe that it does not.
In the quran, a believer is one is secure and certain in his ways. The root alif-meem-num brings out many kinds of words some of which are
become/feel safe/secure, state of security/safety, trust, become quiet/tranquil in heart/mind, become free of expectation of evil or free of an object of dislike/hatred, promise/assurance of security/safety, become trustful/faithful/confident, to believe/acknowledge it, manifestation of humility/submissionAnd whoever does good works and he is a believer, he shall have no fear of injustice nor of the withholding of his due.
I do not wish to play grammar expert, for i am none. But I do want to learn why the above verse has been translated as "and he is a believer" and not "and he is certain". As far as i know, both are adjectives.
those who have studied arabic, if you could share your insight, id appreciate it.Reasons as to why "certain" fits better is found in 1736 where are told to be certain before doing anything, that ecompasses both good deed and bad deeds.
But, even if believer is the right grammatical translation. The ingredients and definition of a believer includes certainty (based on investigation as per 391. And a person who has come to do a good deed after thoughtful consideration, why should he not be regarded as believer?
I do not think that "belief" is some kind of an "irreducible complexity" in which if only one ingredient is missing, the whole thing collapses. No. I am open, do not entirely sure, about one being "a believer" in many different levels, and all levels with their lacks. What hinders therefore a good-door from being accepted as a believer in one level?
Sure, he is not a full-believer, but who are? Who of us can do everything that the quran tells us to do? Most of us, me including, have problems upholding simple etiquette. Yet, we regards ourselves as believers. Who are we to decide wich lacks are acceptable and which are not?The only thing that is irreducible in belief is what is irreducible in any structure its foundation; the doing of good deeds. I believe. All other ingredients can be grown and modified as experience allows.
Nadeem
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If belief is crucial for salvation,
Peace
I provided enough Quran evidences that belief is crucial to salvation, however you may need to explain to me what is salvation to you
Is it not going to hell only?
Is it going to heaven only?
Is it going to heaven and at the same time avoiding hell?
then how come the prophet is in 4914 DENYING the nomads to declare belief
"The Nomads said 'We have faith (A'manna).' Say 'You do not have faith; what you should say is, `We have Submitted (Aslamna),' until faith is established in your hearts.' If you obey GOD and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful." (4914)
It seems to me that many misunderstand this verse in addition to misunderstanding the difference between ?A Mumin? and ?A Muslim?, let me bring it in Arabic so I can respond to it
?The Arabs say We believe. Say You do not believe but say, We submit; and faith has not yet entered into your hearts; and if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not diminish aught of your deeds; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.?
(14)
-> Clear from the above that ?THE VERSE IS SPECIFIC TO THE ARABS AT THE TIME NOT ALL HUMANITY? when the Arabs said ?We Believed? Allah is advising them to say ?We Submit? because it is a higher level than belief and is proper for a believer to rely on Allah and submit after he/she believed already, it is strange that some think the above verse means it is one or the other i.e. ?To Believe? or ?To Submit?, there is no way the verse means that, it actually means that you can?t be a submitter without being a believer.
Here is Moses saying something similar to the above
?And Musa said O my people! if you believe in Allah, then rely on Him (alone) if you submit (to Allah).?
(84)
-> Obviously Moses is telling the Jews to be submitters, they need to rely on Allah AFTER they BELIEVED, therefore ?Muslimeen? can not be the same as ?Mumineen? unless the ?Mumineen? rely on Allah if they want to be ?Muslimeen? ie. ?Submitters?, i.e. they accept any thing in life ?good or bad? as being from Allah, like loosing a leg for example
And
Whoever brings good, he shall have better than it; and they shall be secure from terror on the day.
Whoever brings a good deed, he shall have ten like it, and whoever brings an evil deed, he shall be recompensed only with the like of it, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.
Whoever brings good, he shall have better than it, and whoever brings evil, those who do evil shall not be rewarded (for) aught except what they did.There is nothing about 'belief' in these verses. It's is clearly stated that good deeds, and good deeds alone will keep one safe from "terror on the day".
Nadeem.
Firstly, the Quran must be understood as a whole not picj and choose what suits you or suits your man made god you took for yourself
Let me give a logical point
If in a location it says you need 1 & 2 for salvation and in another location it says you need 1 for salvation
What we need to do is combine the two to get the final result
i.e. we need 1 & 2 for salvation (going to heaven and avoiding hell at the same time)
Your argument is illogical anyway because how come those disbelievers use Allah words to prove their point?
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In all these verses it seems to me that the rewards for those disbelievers will be in this life because the heaven was never mentioned unlike the other verses I posted
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Logically speaking entering heaven means not entering hell, but ?Not entering hell? does not mean entering heaven, LOL, do you get my point?
Salam
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Hello All
the Quran actually told us about those unbelievers who will do good deeds, they are heading to hell indeed
so what JM said contradicts the Quran, because you may not be a God believer even if you do good deeds as the Quran told us
Salam
Could you quote the verses that prove your point ?
PeaceSure but please this is not a debate, just say disagree at the end if you wish, I will provide enough info to prove my point, also I don?t have time to explain/repeat what I said unless you dispute what I said with a strong logic
Peace Ahmed,
Thanks for your generous explanations, but? you have not really answered my question?
You have told us about the fate of the believers who do good deeds (paradize), and of the unbelievers who do bad deeds (hell). Fine, but ?
What about the unbelievers who do good deeds ?
And, what about the believers who do bad deeds ?Peace
Peace bro
here we go again, same non sense and ilogical resplays
The verses are clearly talking indirectly about the disbelievers who do good deeds, bro a child will get that
Salam
Indeed Ahmed, the verses you have quoted do not talk the disbelievers who do good deeds directly, and this is the problem.
You only got your conclusion via an illogical deduction.Now, Why are you ignoring such verses as the following
So whoever does an atoms weight of good will see it.
And whoever does an atoms weight of evil will see it.Peace
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Peace be upon you
Peace Nadeem, JM
If I do not believe in God, Angels, Scriptures, Messengers and the Day of Judgment
but still manage to do good and avoid bad by the light of my judgment still will I be able to go to heaven?Peace warner
I suggest you to check out my post here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0
Fell free to ask any remaining question...
Peace
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Indeed Ahmed, the verses you have quoted do not talk the disbelievers who do good deeds directly, and this is the problem.
Excuse me bro, if I say those who do good deeds while being beliver, means that there are those who do good deeds while being unbelievers, anyway it seems Heaven is only promised to those who do good deeds while being believers
You only got your conclusion via an illogical deduction.
LOL, nice refute
Now, Why are you ignoring such verses as the following
So whoever does an atoms weight of good will see it.
And whoever does an atoms weight of evil will see it.Peace
Actually I hardly ignore any verses if I want to respond to it, but I do have a life and a busy one indeed so can't you give me sometime to do some other things then get back to you?, well how many verses and logics I posted to you and you never walked me through it to prove my non sense?
well you have no argument regarding 997-8, because it does not talk about salvation on the JD it only said whoever do good will see it and whoever do bad will see it, where the hell is salvation in here?
mister JM, we are talking about salvation on the JD, thank you
Cheers
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Peace,
Interesting thread...
I noticed that good deeds is often followed by "and he is a believer". Perhaps good deeds=believer? And why do "atheists" do good deeds?Peace,
TayPeace Tay
Wa Hoa Mumin indicates a status to those who do good deeds the Wa indcating that making the good deeds is conditoned of being a Mumin, and if that happen "a good deeds doer WHILE being a believer" then Paradise is the reward
if Allah says that "those who make good deeds Wa Hoa Mumin", IT CLEARLY INDICATES THE POSSIBLITY of "those who make good deeds Wa Hoa NOT Mumin", I agree that these verse didnlt mention them directly however the verses was talking about those who make good deeds while being believers so no need to mention the other
you have to understand that that the main test is the belief, the good deeds "our afairs between each others", was a consequence of having a freewill to believe, i.e. our freewill givrn for the purpose of belief will affect our relations together hence Allah can't leave this unaccounted for, therefore the sequence is as follow
Belief Account ( if pass ), then
Deeds Account ( if not passed then those still are entitled to fogivivness as Allah told us)the scond possibilty is this
Belief Account (Not Passed), then there will be no need to give account for the deeds despite it will still be recorded against them because they must pay for it still, "ther will be no mercy for them as Allah told us many times"
This flawed concept of a disbeliever and a good deeds doer being salvaged in the JD will contradict tens and tens of Quran verses
for example the verse about those who believe then disbelieve then believe then increase in disbelieve, Allah is telling us that they will never be offered any mercy, the verse never discussed their deeds hence it is not important as the belief is the one and if you fail in this then your good deeds will be like dust as the Quran told us, it will not be watsed really because the Quran told us that they will be rewarded in this life for their good deeds, the good deeds will be accounted for only if the belief test is passed,
Also bro your formula good deeds=believer does not make sense, I'm not talking about if it is true or false rather the entities on each side of your equation are not from the same kind , one is a believing human and the other is good deeds, hmmm, sorry?
Salam
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Peace JM
Thank you for the below link on the subject ? iman, shirk, kufr some new insight?
provided by you in reply to my simple question .http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0
Quote JM
When our belief is that the rewards are to be seek for in the hereafter, and not in earthly life ; there can be a shift in our concepts of "right" and "wrong". When we expect rewards only in the earthly life, the "right" is that serve our interests. But when we expect rewards only in the hereafter, the "right" is what serve the interests of humankind.
IMHO, the basic message of God is "Act for humankind, not only your you, and you will be rewarded for that in the hereafter".If you want to call Islam ( Deen ) is a value system rather than call it a religion it is fine. It is another way of looking at what most might agree anyway. And I guess there is no damage done to anyone by this.
Quote JM
But when we expect rewards only in the hereafterCant agree with you here. Reward is in this life and the hereafter. Sometimes the punishment also is in this life and the hereafter. But if we follow Buddha we can give up this life and think of only hereafter.
Quote JM
the basic message of God is "Act for humankind, not only your you, and you will be rewarded for that in the hereafter".No where in the Quraan God mentions this kind of basic message It took God many years to get the message through the prophet and definitely it can not be simplified in to this. This is more like Mother Theresa?s message or fits as a good Boy Scout motto. To modify this as Buddha?s basic message you got to add animals also to the basic message. Do not over simplify the message or try to define it based on a few verses in the Quraan. Sometimes it is good to analyze information but we must remember wrong analysis leads to paralysis of the system. The Gods system promotes war against aggression, capital punishment, punishment of people committing zina and theft and also the Quraan mentions the destruction of people of Noah, Hud , Salih , Shuaib, Lot and Pharaoh and many others . Why all this destruction and punishment in the earthly life if the system rewards and punishes only in the hereafter? (I guess, I do not have to mention examples of how good doers have been rewarded in this life)
Also if we are to base our lives on a value system created by us based on the principle of "act for humankind" how do I deal with issues like death penalty, abortion, consensual sex, and homosexuality?
The below 2 links mentioned by you defines Imaan and Shirk according to the Quraan . There is no dispute there. But I do not get how these 2 links support your view.
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/imaan.htm
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/shirk.htmQuote JM
Kufr is to know what the right value system is, while refusing to live by it.If Kufr is rejecting Gods value system that means following some other value system. Which in that case is following a false value system. False value system according to you is Shirk. By now I am bit confused by your definitions.
Still you have not answered my question.
If I do not believe but do good deeds can I go to Heaven ?
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Hi brother Ahmad,
I'll try to answer you post in full later, god willing.
BUt for now some notes
Firstly, the Quran must be understood as a whole not picj and choose what suits you or suits your man made god you took for yourself
Let me give a logical point
If in a location it says you need 1 & 2 for salvation and in another location it says you need 1 for salvation
What we need to do is combine the two to get the final result
i.e. we need 1 & 2 for salvation (going to heaven and avoiding hell at the same time)
While I agree with viewing the scripture as a whole, we must also be brave enough to ask why one verse settles with one condition, whilst the other sets two conditions.
If I say "The ones who play soccer and cricket will get a prize."
Then someone askes "What about those who play soccer only?"
Then I reply "The ones who play soccer will get a prize".
That means that both those who play soccer only and those who play both soccer & cricket will get a prize.
In this case, it is illogical and faulty to mix my two statements trying to look at them as "a whole". Because if you do that, as you have done with the verses; You would say that only the ones who play both sports will get a prize, which is in direct contradiction to my second statement.
I am sorry that I cannot respond in full to your post which is full of information. It is not because I am trying to ignore you. It is because I am admitting my lack of knowledge in the subject, and therefore trying to consider the verses you set forth more carefully, thus taking more time. God willing, my studies on this subject will be fruitful and I will be able to comment on those verses.
Nadeem
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Now, Why are you ignoring such verses as the following
So whoever does an atoms weight of good will see it.
And whoever does an atoms weight of evil will see it.Peace
well you have no argument regarding 997-8, because it does not talk about salvation on the JD it only said whoever do good will see it and whoever do bad will see it, where the hell is salvation in here?
mister JM, we are talking about salvation on the JD, thank you
Cheers
Peace Ahmed,
See
On that Day, the people will be brought out in throngs to be shown their works.
What is that day, according to you ?
A clue
Such will be the abode of the Hereafter; We reserve it for those who do not seek prestige on Earth, nor corruption. And the end belongs to the righteous. Whoever brings forth a good deed, he will receive a better reward than it. And whoever brings forth a sin then the retribution for their sins will be to the extent of their deeds.
Peace
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Still you have not answered my question.
If I do not believe but do good deeds can I go to Heaven ?
This is a very difficult question. IMHO, the response would be YES, because of verses like .
(But it would also be NO, as per verses like ).However, there is no verse in the Quran stating explicitly the fate of such people like ?Those who disbelieve and do good deeds will go to paradise?.
Why ?
Simply because being a disbeliever qs well as doing good deeds is very improbable.Why ?
IMHO because a good deed is, by definition, something that goes against your immediate interests (Example giving one?s money to the poor). Without the belief in God (and the belief in a reward in the hereafter), it is difficult (yet not impossible) to find motivation to do good deeds.By the way, you can think you are doing good deeds, and be mistaken.
Is one who is based on proof from his Lord, as one for whom his evil works have been adorned for him and they followed their desires?
Someone who disbelieve in God will probably have other gods ; it may be his desires, material wealth, etc?
Know that this worldly life is no more than play and amusement and adornments, and boasting among you, and to increase in wealth and children. It is like plants that are supplied by an abundant rain, which appear pleasing to the disbelievers. But then they dry-up and turn yellow, and become useless hay. And in the Hereafter there is severe retribution, and forgiveness from God and approval. This worldly life is no more than a deceiving enjoyment.
Therefore, the most probable scenario is that a disbeliever will do bad deeds (consciously or not), and then, go to hell.
Hope I have answered your question, now.
Peace
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Firstly, the Quran must be understood as a whole not picj and choose what suits you or suits your man made god you took for yourself
Let me give a logical point
If in a location it says you need 1 & 2 for salvation and in another location it says you need 1 for salvation
What we need to do is combine the two to get the final result
i.e. we need 1 & 2 for salvation (going to heaven and avoiding hell at the same time)
Your argument is illogical anyway because how come those disbelievers use Allah words to prove their point?
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In all these verses it seems to me that the rewards for those disbelievers will be in this life because the heaven was never mentioned unlike the other verses I posted
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Logically speaking entering heaven means not entering hell, but ?Not entering hell? does not mean entering heaven, LOL, do you get my point?
Salam
Peace Ahmed,
Do you know the logical fallacy ?Denying the Antecedent? ?
Denying the antecedent (also known as vacuous implication) is a type of logical fallacy.
Suppose in an argument one were to deny the "if" part of a conditional (the antecedent) first, and conclude with the denial of "then" part (the consequent).
If P, then Q.
P is false.
Therefore, Q is false.This argument form has the name denying the antecedent, because in arguing this way one does indeed deny the antecedent in the second premise. This is a non sequitur (irrelevant conclusion). If we argue this way, we make a mistake.
One can see this with an example
If I'm asleep, my eyes are closed.
I'm not asleep.
Therefore, my eyes are not closed.Clearly, the fact that my eyes are closed when I sleep does not exclude the possibility that I might close my eyes while being fully awake.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent
In our example
P = X is a believer who do good deeds
Q = X will go to paradiseThe Quran states If P, then Q If X is a believer who do good deeds, X will go to paradise.
Assume one case where P is false X is a disbeliever who do good deeds
Then, the conclusion Therefore Q is false = Therefore X will not go to paradise = Therefore X will go to hell is a logical fallacy.
It is like the above example where
P = I'm asleep
Q = my eyes are closedPeace
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Peace Ahmed, all,
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. You didn't anser the second question, however, which is instrumental in the point I was trying to make. The question was, why do atheists do good deeds?
The conclusion being that those who do good deeds may be, by default, believers. Otherwise, what's the purpose of doing good?
One may argue that the laws of a given country force people into behaving. I would say that behaving and doing good are not the same. One can easily live as a law-abiding citizen in a nation while doing no good deeds. In this sense, and I believe what is represented in the Qur'an as well, "good deeds" is regarding actions and thoughts that one goes out of their way to promote, ie, sheltering and feeding the homeless, providing for orphans, caring for the elderly and disabled, etc.
Anyway, I'm not married to this idea, but there does seem to be something there, especially considering the Qur'an usually follows "good deeds" with "believer".
Peace,
Tay -
Peace JM/Nadeem
You have not replied to all the issues I raised.
A disbeliever (whether he is a good doer or bad) does not believe in the Day of Judgment or Heaven. So I do not understand why you are concerned about him, while even he is not concerned about heaven or hell. I guess for this reason God will not reward him with Heaven.
45 34
Yusuf Ali
It will also be said "This Day We will forget you as ye forgot the meeting of this Day of yours! And your abode is the Fire and no helpers have ye!Also , I guess your definition of good works is too narrow. If you read through the Quraan you will understand following all of Gods commands will constitute to being righteous and it is not only being good to humankind. Example, not judging by the light of what God has revealed or throwing away /neglecting Gods signs will be considered by God as bad deeds although the disbeliever will not care, further to give you an example from today?s society homosexuality or interest is considered completely accepted but this is considered bad deeds by God.
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Peace JM/Nadeem
You have not replied to all the issues I raised.
A disbeliever (whether he is a good doer or bad) does not believe in the Day of Judgment or Heaven. So I do not understand why you are concerned about him, while even he is not concerned about heaven or hell. I guess for this reason God will not reward him with Heaven.
45 34
Yusuf Ali
It will also be said "This Day We will forget you as ye forgot the meeting of this Day of yours! And your abode is the Fire and no helpers have ye!There are verses like this one which say that the disbelievers will go to hell.
And there are also verses like according to which everyone is to be judge according to his deeds.It gives a contradiction when we come to asses the fate of the disbelievers who do good deeds.
Since there is no contradiction in the Quran, the only solution I see to this equation is that there is a contradiction between being a disbeliever (kuffar) and doing good deeds.
In the same way, we can conclude that there is a contradiction between being a believer (mumin) and doing bad deeds.One of the mistakes we are making relies on the hidden assumption that one should be either a mumin or a kafir. This is wrong there are many intermediary states between these 2 extreme ones.
In , there are people who are muslim but not mumin. Clearly, they are not kuffar.I think that the kuffar are only the ones to whom the message of God has been clearly exposed, and who refuse to accept it. Until that, they are ignorants (jahileen). But this theory has to be verified.
Also , I guess your definition of good works is too narrow. If you read through the Quraan you will understand following all of Gods commands will constitute to being righteous and it is not only being good to humankind. Example, not judging by the light of what God has revealed or throwing away /neglecting Gods signs will be considered by God as bad deeds although the disbeliever will not care, further to give you an example from today?s society homosexuality or interest is considered completely accepted but this is considered bad deeds by God.
You are making wrong assumptions about how I define good and wrong deeds.
Please read again my previous post.
Peace