"those who believe and do good works" - 2:62 and 3:21
-
Peace,
Interesting thread...
I noticed that good deeds is often followed by "and he is a believer". Perhaps good deeds=believer? And why do "atheists" do good deeds?Peace,
TayPeace Tay
Wa Hoa Mumin indicates a status to those who do good deeds the Wa indcating that making the good deeds is conditoned of being a Mumin, and if that happen "a good deeds doer WHILE being a believer" then Paradise is the reward
if Allah says that "those who make good deeds Wa Hoa Mumin", IT CLEARLY INDICATES THE POSSIBLITY of "those who make good deeds Wa Hoa NOT Mumin", I agree that these verse didnlt mention them directly however the verses was talking about those who make good deeds while being believers so no need to mention the other
you have to understand that that the main test is the belief, the good deeds "our afairs between each others", was a consequence of having a freewill to believe, i.e. our freewill givrn for the purpose of belief will affect our relations together hence Allah can't leave this unaccounted for, therefore the sequence is as follow
Belief Account ( if pass ), then
Deeds Account ( if not passed then those still are entitled to fogivivness as Allah told us)the scond possibilty is this
Belief Account (Not Passed), then there will be no need to give account for the deeds despite it will still be recorded against them because they must pay for it still, "ther will be no mercy for them as Allah told us many times"
This flawed concept of a disbeliever and a good deeds doer being salvaged in the JD will contradict tens and tens of Quran verses
for example the verse about those who believe then disbelieve then believe then increase in disbelieve, Allah is telling us that they will never be offered any mercy, the verse never discussed their deeds hence it is not important as the belief is the one and if you fail in this then your good deeds will be like dust as the Quran told us, it will not be watsed really because the Quran told us that they will be rewarded in this life for their good deeds, the good deeds will be accounted for only if the belief test is passed,
Also bro your formula good deeds=believer does not make sense, I'm not talking about if it is true or false rather the entities on each side of your equation are not from the same kind , one is a believing human and the other is good deeds, hmmm, sorry?
Salam
-
Peace JM
Thank you for the below link on the subject ? iman, shirk, kufr some new insight?
provided by you in reply to my simple question .http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0
Quote JM
When our belief is that the rewards are to be seek for in the hereafter, and not in earthly life ; there can be a shift in our concepts of "right" and "wrong". When we expect rewards only in the earthly life, the "right" is that serve our interests. But when we expect rewards only in the hereafter, the "right" is what serve the interests of humankind.
IMHO, the basic message of God is "Act for humankind, not only your you, and you will be rewarded for that in the hereafter".If you want to call Islam ( Deen ) is a value system rather than call it a religion it is fine. It is another way of looking at what most might agree anyway. And I guess there is no damage done to anyone by this.
Quote JM
But when we expect rewards only in the hereafterCant agree with you here. Reward is in this life and the hereafter. Sometimes the punishment also is in this life and the hereafter. But if we follow Buddha we can give up this life and think of only hereafter.
Quote JM
the basic message of God is "Act for humankind, not only your you, and you will be rewarded for that in the hereafter".No where in the Quraan God mentions this kind of basic message It took God many years to get the message through the prophet and definitely it can not be simplified in to this. This is more like Mother Theresa?s message or fits as a good Boy Scout motto. To modify this as Buddha?s basic message you got to add animals also to the basic message. Do not over simplify the message or try to define it based on a few verses in the Quraan. Sometimes it is good to analyze information but we must remember wrong analysis leads to paralysis of the system. The Gods system promotes war against aggression, capital punishment, punishment of people committing zina and theft and also the Quraan mentions the destruction of people of Noah, Hud , Salih , Shuaib, Lot and Pharaoh and many others . Why all this destruction and punishment in the earthly life if the system rewards and punishes only in the hereafter? (I guess, I do not have to mention examples of how good doers have been rewarded in this life)
Also if we are to base our lives on a value system created by us based on the principle of "act for humankind" how do I deal with issues like death penalty, abortion, consensual sex, and homosexuality?
The below 2 links mentioned by you defines Imaan and Shirk according to the Quraan . There is no dispute there. But I do not get how these 2 links support your view.
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/imaan.htm
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/shirk.htmQuote JM
Kufr is to know what the right value system is, while refusing to live by it.If Kufr is rejecting Gods value system that means following some other value system. Which in that case is following a false value system. False value system according to you is Shirk. By now I am bit confused by your definitions.
Still you have not answered my question.
If I do not believe but do good deeds can I go to Heaven ?
-
Hi brother Ahmad,
I'll try to answer you post in full later, god willing.
BUt for now some notes
Firstly, the Quran must be understood as a whole not picj and choose what suits you or suits your man made god you took for yourself
Let me give a logical point
If in a location it says you need 1 & 2 for salvation and in another location it says you need 1 for salvation
What we need to do is combine the two to get the final result
i.e. we need 1 & 2 for salvation (going to heaven and avoiding hell at the same time)
While I agree with viewing the scripture as a whole, we must also be brave enough to ask why one verse settles with one condition, whilst the other sets two conditions.
If I say "The ones who play soccer and cricket will get a prize."
Then someone askes "What about those who play soccer only?"
Then I reply "The ones who play soccer will get a prize".
That means that both those who play soccer only and those who play both soccer & cricket will get a prize.
In this case, it is illogical and faulty to mix my two statements trying to look at them as "a whole". Because if you do that, as you have done with the verses; You would say that only the ones who play both sports will get a prize, which is in direct contradiction to my second statement.
I am sorry that I cannot respond in full to your post which is full of information. It is not because I am trying to ignore you. It is because I am admitting my lack of knowledge in the subject, and therefore trying to consider the verses you set forth more carefully, thus taking more time. God willing, my studies on this subject will be fruitful and I will be able to comment on those verses.
Nadeem
-
Now, Why are you ignoring such verses as the following
So whoever does an atoms weight of good will see it.
And whoever does an atoms weight of evil will see it.Peace
well you have no argument regarding 997-8, because it does not talk about salvation on the JD it only said whoever do good will see it and whoever do bad will see it, where the hell is salvation in here?
mister JM, we are talking about salvation on the JD, thank you
Cheers
Peace Ahmed,
See
On that Day, the people will be brought out in throngs to be shown their works.
What is that day, according to you ?
A clue
Such will be the abode of the Hereafter; We reserve it for those who do not seek prestige on Earth, nor corruption. And the end belongs to the righteous. Whoever brings forth a good deed, he will receive a better reward than it. And whoever brings forth a sin then the retribution for their sins will be to the extent of their deeds.
Peace
-
Still you have not answered my question.
If I do not believe but do good deeds can I go to Heaven ?
This is a very difficult question. IMHO, the response would be YES, because of verses like .
(But it would also be NO, as per verses like ).However, there is no verse in the Quran stating explicitly the fate of such people like ?Those who disbelieve and do good deeds will go to paradise?.
Why ?
Simply because being a disbeliever qs well as doing good deeds is very improbable.Why ?
IMHO because a good deed is, by definition, something that goes against your immediate interests (Example giving one?s money to the poor). Without the belief in God (and the belief in a reward in the hereafter), it is difficult (yet not impossible) to find motivation to do good deeds.By the way, you can think you are doing good deeds, and be mistaken.
Is one who is based on proof from his Lord, as one for whom his evil works have been adorned for him and they followed their desires?
Someone who disbelieve in God will probably have other gods ; it may be his desires, material wealth, etc?
Know that this worldly life is no more than play and amusement and adornments, and boasting among you, and to increase in wealth and children. It is like plants that are supplied by an abundant rain, which appear pleasing to the disbelievers. But then they dry-up and turn yellow, and become useless hay. And in the Hereafter there is severe retribution, and forgiveness from God and approval. This worldly life is no more than a deceiving enjoyment.
Therefore, the most probable scenario is that a disbeliever will do bad deeds (consciously or not), and then, go to hell.
Hope I have answered your question, now.
Peace
-
Firstly, the Quran must be understood as a whole not picj and choose what suits you or suits your man made god you took for yourself
Let me give a logical point
If in a location it says you need 1 & 2 for salvation and in another location it says you need 1 for salvation
What we need to do is combine the two to get the final result
i.e. we need 1 & 2 for salvation (going to heaven and avoiding hell at the same time)
Your argument is illogical anyway because how come those disbelievers use Allah words to prove their point?
-
In all these verses it seems to me that the rewards for those disbelievers will be in this life because the heaven was never mentioned unlike the other verses I posted
-
Logically speaking entering heaven means not entering hell, but ?Not entering hell? does not mean entering heaven, LOL, do you get my point?
Salam
Peace Ahmed,
Do you know the logical fallacy ?Denying the Antecedent? ?
Denying the antecedent (also known as vacuous implication) is a type of logical fallacy.
Suppose in an argument one were to deny the "if" part of a conditional (the antecedent) first, and conclude with the denial of "then" part (the consequent).
If P, then Q.
P is false.
Therefore, Q is false.This argument form has the name denying the antecedent, because in arguing this way one does indeed deny the antecedent in the second premise. This is a non sequitur (irrelevant conclusion). If we argue this way, we make a mistake.
One can see this with an example
If I'm asleep, my eyes are closed.
I'm not asleep.
Therefore, my eyes are not closed.Clearly, the fact that my eyes are closed when I sleep does not exclude the possibility that I might close my eyes while being fully awake.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent
In our example
P = X is a believer who do good deeds
Q = X will go to paradiseThe Quran states If P, then Q If X is a believer who do good deeds, X will go to paradise.
Assume one case where P is false X is a disbeliever who do good deeds
Then, the conclusion Therefore Q is false = Therefore X will not go to paradise = Therefore X will go to hell is a logical fallacy.
It is like the above example where
P = I'm asleep
Q = my eyes are closedPeace
-
-
Peace Ahmed, all,
Thanks for the thoughtful reply. You didn't anser the second question, however, which is instrumental in the point I was trying to make. The question was, why do atheists do good deeds?
The conclusion being that those who do good deeds may be, by default, believers. Otherwise, what's the purpose of doing good?
One may argue that the laws of a given country force people into behaving. I would say that behaving and doing good are not the same. One can easily live as a law-abiding citizen in a nation while doing no good deeds. In this sense, and I believe what is represented in the Qur'an as well, "good deeds" is regarding actions and thoughts that one goes out of their way to promote, ie, sheltering and feeding the homeless, providing for orphans, caring for the elderly and disabled, etc.
Anyway, I'm not married to this idea, but there does seem to be something there, especially considering the Qur'an usually follows "good deeds" with "believer".
Peace,
Tay -
Peace JM/Nadeem
You have not replied to all the issues I raised.
A disbeliever (whether he is a good doer or bad) does not believe in the Day of Judgment or Heaven. So I do not understand why you are concerned about him, while even he is not concerned about heaven or hell. I guess for this reason God will not reward him with Heaven.
45 34
Yusuf Ali
It will also be said "This Day We will forget you as ye forgot the meeting of this Day of yours! And your abode is the Fire and no helpers have ye!Also , I guess your definition of good works is too narrow. If you read through the Quraan you will understand following all of Gods commands will constitute to being righteous and it is not only being good to humankind. Example, not judging by the light of what God has revealed or throwing away /neglecting Gods signs will be considered by God as bad deeds although the disbeliever will not care, further to give you an example from today?s society homosexuality or interest is considered completely accepted but this is considered bad deeds by God.
-
Peace JM/Nadeem
You have not replied to all the issues I raised.
A disbeliever (whether he is a good doer or bad) does not believe in the Day of Judgment or Heaven. So I do not understand why you are concerned about him, while even he is not concerned about heaven or hell. I guess for this reason God will not reward him with Heaven.
45 34
Yusuf Ali
It will also be said "This Day We will forget you as ye forgot the meeting of this Day of yours! And your abode is the Fire and no helpers have ye!There are verses like this one which say that the disbelievers will go to hell.
And there are also verses like according to which everyone is to be judge according to his deeds.It gives a contradiction when we come to asses the fate of the disbelievers who do good deeds.
Since there is no contradiction in the Quran, the only solution I see to this equation is that there is a contradiction between being a disbeliever (kuffar) and doing good deeds.
In the same way, we can conclude that there is a contradiction between being a believer (mumin) and doing bad deeds.One of the mistakes we are making relies on the hidden assumption that one should be either a mumin or a kafir. This is wrong there are many intermediary states between these 2 extreme ones.
In , there are people who are muslim but not mumin. Clearly, they are not kuffar.I think that the kuffar are only the ones to whom the message of God has been clearly exposed, and who refuse to accept it. Until that, they are ignorants (jahileen). But this theory has to be verified.
Also , I guess your definition of good works is too narrow. If you read through the Quraan you will understand following all of Gods commands will constitute to being righteous and it is not only being good to humankind. Example, not judging by the light of what God has revealed or throwing away /neglecting Gods signs will be considered by God as bad deeds although the disbeliever will not care, further to give you an example from today?s society homosexuality or interest is considered completely accepted but this is considered bad deeds by God.
You are making wrong assumptions about how I define good and wrong deeds.
Please read again my previous post.
Peace
-
49 14
PickthallThe wandering Arabs say We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
The verse 4914 is one of the most misused verses in the Quraan and some base this verse to give a whole new interpretation to believing and submitting while ignoring so many verses on these 2 important factors. The prophet has been advised by God what to say in many circumstances when different persons meet him or confront him. For example how to reply to the believing and non believing Jews and Christians, what to say to believing women, believers, hypocrites and pagans and also different answers or comments under different circumstances. The above verse is what to say when desert Arabs come to the prophet. Please read all other verses with regard to Arabs and what the prophet is instructed to say. The ?submit? in this verse does not mean the desert Arabs have totally submitted to one God. It only means that they have ?surrendered?. I hope you will understand from this point.
There is a confusion for many on the degree of belief and the degree of submission. Belief and submission can be looked in two different angles. Believer and/or submitter among men and believer and submitter in front of God. I like to think I am a believer and a submitter. People around me might think so too. Even I can openly say I believe, like the desert Arabs in 4914. But God knows the truth. What guarantee have I got whether I am accepted as a believer and a submitter by God? That my belief is not tainted with shirk. And my actions were solely were for God. We can receive guidance from the Quraan and it will show us the straight path, if God wills . Also we can try and make every effort to be righteous. But we can not purify ourselves and can not be certain because we will not know whether we are truly successful till the last minute.
-
quick note
When I was 13, about 3 years ago, I did some research on the term "disbelievers" in the quran. My conclusion was that "a disbeliever" is one whom is anti-social. I even claimed that "a disbeliever" is a psychopath. I read many articles on psychopaths and my comparison showed that many traits found in psychopaths are attributed to the disbeliever in the quran. A shocking resemblance. The verse that made me think of this in the first place is the verse which says "In their minds is a disease". The word psychopath itself means "a suffering mind". ALL of the traits matched, except two or three that I could not place since I didn't understand what it ment.
I have decided to restart my research, and i am taking notes what a disbeliever is. Not because i reject my old findings, but since I believe that need to be more thorough than last time.
For those interested in seeing my notes and progress
http//www.reflekterselv.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,99999999/topic,903.0You'll be having to scroll past the references.
Those who can speak norwegian, can read my old article here
http//www.reflekterselv.com/koranen/hvem_er_vantro.htmlIf you want to compare a psychopath to the disbeliever
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopath#What_is_a_psychopath.3FNadeem
-
Peace nadeem. I have been thinking the same for some time now.....A kind of mental illness caused by illusions and bad conditioning of the mind.....Its even funny/sad how those with this full blown mental disease AIDS, (aquired incredibly dogmatic syndrome.) brand others as having this illness(kufr,disbelief.),while being wholly unaware of their own disease and its true symptoms....Like a paranoid schizophrenic thinking everbody else is deluded...
Oh,the lesser precuser form of this disease is HIV...(having intolerance verbally.)
The cure to these diseases is to free the mind of intolerance to other possible alternative viewpoints,to free the mind of dogmatic thoughts,and to re-condition the mind towards a more practical and reality based way of life,...then to continue this process to avoid relapses.....
peace muscle handshake -
Peace nadeem. Very good research and findings bro.... bravo
-
Hi enquirer,
I share your thoughts on this and I'm glad my research benefits you -)
However, what puzzles me, is that psychopathy as defined medically, is incurable, it can be suppressed and "controlled", but it's there all the time. In the quran however, there are some kafirs that can be cured, while others cannot. The cure being what you have prescribed in your post.
So, it seems that there are several, at least two, kinds of kafirs.
In the name of the theory of duality, do I dare say that same goes for "believers"?
Nadeem.
-
peace nadeem.WOW,you are really addressing some good practical issues bro..... bravo
I have been reading a book called 'families they **** you up'.....(i will try to get the author for you tommorow.) and in it it stated that schizophrenia can be reversed/cured WITHOUT medication......Now i dont have reams of objective scientific evidence for this,but in my experience (and i have worked a little in this field.) i believe this can possibly be true...
In some case it may be suppresses/controlled,and in others it may be eliminated practically speaking....Im a great believer in will power overcoming mental deficiencies....(not totally,but at least to a possible measurable extent.) Cognitive behavioural therapy agrees with these thoughts to some extent.....In some cases the illness may be genetic and/or physically pretty fixed,but progressive/new science and will-power/re-conditioning can help greatly....
As for the duality,i believe you are 100% right,a believer can change to a kafir if they program their soul incorrectly or if they are too relaxed/ignorant in their thinking....That is why i feel salat/prayer/meditation/conditioning is an exercise one must keep up to reasonable speed with,or the mind can degenerate badly due to all the negativity,false information,illusions,harmful desires and negative emotions that are just waiting to infect/re-infect our minds....... We all need to be on guard,and have personal insight into our own mental processes.....And we at times need a major overhaul,and spring-clean of our minds and thought processes/thinking patterns...
ps; some of the info i post in this post is not fully verified,and are theories i am trying to think about/verify.....But they do have some grounding in reality.......Wouldnt want myself becoming a mad-man hey....
pps; as for kafirs who 'cant' be cured or vice versa,it may be because the person does not want to be cured,or a lack of adequate science/knowledge/medical care to cure them..... -
Hi Enquirer,
WOW,you are really addressing some good practical issues bro.....
Thanks, I was hoping that this research would go beyond a simple theoritical value -)
I too, am a big believer in mind and will power. And I believe that mind is capable of the most amazing things.
However, I don't know whether the limiations of mind is in our gene or in our ignorance of it. Maybe a mixof both, perhaps?
I liked your inputs on programming and salat. They really make sense, and haven't thought of them to such an extent as you have demonstrated, even though I was somewhat aware it's impact on us. Thanks -)
pps; as for kafirs who 'cant' be cured or vice versa,it may be because the person does not want to be cured,or a lack of adequate science/knowledge/medical care to cure them.....
I believe god gives everyone a chance to repent. It doesn't make sense to give someone a chance when they cannot take it due to factors such a medical ones that they have no control of. I believe that it is because of their arrogance and that they are stubborn.
Thus, I lean towards the understanding that their resemblance psychopathy should not be taken literally, but metaphorically. However I remain open to the opposite, as there certainly seem to be good basis for such an understanding.
Nadeem
-
Peace nadeem. I will try to answer your question fully tommorow about whether the limitations in our minds are genetic,or because of our ignorance of the mind,or both....A fascinating and practical topic.....once again.... bravo
ps;check out some of idolfrees posts on salat,programming,meditation and behaviour modification/shaping....Some Fantastic insights that you can try to verify for yourself if they are correct or not..... bravo -
Thank you for the information on psychopaths and people with a disease in their minds.
Can a person be a psychopath from birth?
What are the reasons a person turn out to be one?
Also what percentage of the population has psychopathic conditions?I believe when a person?s life is based on false beliefs and false submission and rejects the truth he/she may turn in to someone with many of the qualities of a psychopath. I read somewhere that a person with true faith in God can not suffer any mental illnesses.
I guess this soundness of mind is reflected in the following verses.
26 89
Yusuf Ali "But only he (will prosper) that brings to Allah a sound heart;
Transliteration Il la_ man atal la_ha biqalbin salimAND
37 83
Yusuf Ali Verily among those who followed his Way was Abraham.
Transliteration Wa ina min Syiatihi la ibra_him37 84Yusuf Ali Behold He approached his Lord with a sound heart.
Transliteration Iz ja_ a rab bahu_ biqalbin salimBut I am not certain about the psychopath = disbeliever or disbeliever= psychopath equation.