"those who believe and do good works" - 2:62 and 3:21

warner

Peace JM

Thank you for the below link on the subject ? iman, shirk, kufr some new insight?
provided by you in reply to my simple question .

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=5261.0

Quote JM
When our belief is that the rewards are to be seek for in the hereafter, and not in earthly life ; there can be a shift in our concepts of "right" and "wrong". When we expect rewards only in the earthly life, the "right" is that serve our interests. But when we expect rewards only in the hereafter, the "right" is what serve the interests of humankind.
IMHO, the basic message of God is "Act for humankind, not only your you, and you will be rewarded for that in the hereafter".

If you want to call Islam ( Deen ) is a value system rather than call it a religion it is fine. It is another way of looking at what most might agree anyway. And I guess there is no damage done to anyone by this.

Quote JM
But when we expect rewards only in the hereafter

Cant agree with you here. Reward is in this life and the hereafter. Sometimes the punishment also is in this life and the hereafter. But if we follow Buddha we can give up this life and think of only hereafter.

Quote JM
the basic message of God is "Act for humankind, not only your you, and you will be rewarded for that in the hereafter".

No where in the Quraan God mentions this kind of basic message It took God many years to get the message through the prophet and definitely it can not be simplified in to this. This is more like Mother Theresa?s message or fits as a good Boy Scout motto. To modify this as Buddha?s basic message you got to add animals also to the basic message. Do not over simplify the message or try to define it based on a few verses in the Quraan. Sometimes it is good to analyze information but we must remember wrong analysis leads to paralysis of the system. The Gods system promotes war against aggression, capital punishment, punishment of people committing zina and theft and also the Quraan mentions the destruction of people of Noah, Hud , Salih , Shuaib, Lot and Pharaoh and many others . Why all this destruction and punishment in the earthly life if the system rewards and punishes only in the hereafter? (I guess, I do not have to mention examples of how good doers have been rewarded in this life)

Also if we are to base our lives on a value system created by us based on the principle of "act for humankind" how do I deal with issues like death penalty, abortion, consensual sex, and homosexuality?

The below 2 links mentioned by you defines Imaan and Shirk according to the Quraan . There is no dispute there. But I do not get how these 2 links support your view.

http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/imaan.htm
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/shirk.htm

Quote JM
Kufr is to know what the right value system is, while refusing to live by it.

If Kufr is rejecting Gods value system that means following some other value system. Which in that case is following a false value system. False value system according to you is Shirk. By now I am bit confused by your definitions.

Still you have not answered my question.

If I do not believe but do good deeds can I go to Heaven ?

nadeem

Hi brother Ahmad,

I'll try to answer you post in full later, god willing.

BUt for now some notes

Firstly, the Quran must be understood as a whole not picj and choose what suits you or suits your man made god you took for yourself

Let me give a logical point

If in a location it says you need 1 & 2 for salvation and in another location it says you need 1 for salvation

What we need to do is combine the two to get the final result

i.e. we need 1 & 2 for salvation (going to heaven and avoiding hell at the same time)

While I agree with viewing the scripture as a whole, we must also be brave enough to ask why one verse settles with one condition, whilst the other sets two conditions.

If I say "The ones who play soccer and cricket will get a prize."

Then someone askes "What about those who play soccer only?"

Then I reply "The ones who play soccer will get a prize".

That means that both those who play soccer only and those who play both soccer & cricket will get a prize.

In this case, it is illogical and faulty to mix my two statements trying to look at them as "a whole". Because if you do that, as you have done with the verses; You would say that only the ones who play both sports will get a prize, which is in direct contradiction to my second statement.

I am sorry that I cannot respond in full to your post which is full of information. It is not because I am trying to ignore you. It is because I am admitting my lack of knowledge in the subject, and therefore trying to consider the verses you set forth more carefully, thus taking more time. God willing, my studies on this subject will be fruitful and I will be able to comment on those verses.

Nadeem

wildguest1956

Now, Why are you ignoring such verses as the following

So whoever does an atoms weight of good will see it.
And whoever does an atoms weight of evil will see it.

Peace

well you have no argument regarding 997-8, because it does not talk about salvation on the JD it only said whoever do good will see it and whoever do bad will see it, where the hell is salvation in here?

mister JM, we are talking about salvation on the JD, thank you

Cheers

Peace Ahmed,

See

On that Day, the people will be brought out in throngs to be shown their works.

What is that day, according to you ?

A clue

Such will be the abode of the Hereafter; We reserve it for those who do not seek prestige on Earth, nor corruption. And the end belongs to the righteous. Whoever brings forth a good deed, he will receive a better reward than it. And whoever brings forth a sin then the retribution for their sins will be to the extent of their deeds.

Peace

wildguest1956

Still you have not answered my question.

If I do not believe but do good deeds can I go to Heaven ?

This is a very difficult question. IMHO, the response would be YES, because of verses like .
(But it would also be NO, as per verses like ).

However, there is no verse in the Quran stating explicitly the fate of such people like ?Those who disbelieve and do good deeds will go to paradise?.

Why ?
Simply because being a disbeliever qs well as doing good deeds is very improbable.

Why ?
IMHO because a good deed is, by definition, something that goes against your immediate interests (Example giving one?s money to the poor). Without the belief in God (and the belief in a reward in the hereafter), it is difficult (yet not impossible) to find motivation to do good deeds.

By the way, you can think you are doing good deeds, and be mistaken.

Is one who is based on proof from his Lord, as one for whom his evil works have been adorned for him and they followed their desires?

Someone who disbelieve in God will probably have other gods ; it may be his desires, material wealth, etc?

Know that this worldly life is no more than play and amusement and adornments, and boasting among you, and to increase in wealth and children. It is like plants that are supplied by an abundant rain, which appear pleasing to the disbelievers. But then they dry-up and turn yellow, and become useless hay. And in the Hereafter there is severe retribution, and forgiveness from God and approval. This worldly life is no more than a deceiving enjoyment.

Therefore, the most probable scenario is that a disbeliever will do bad deeds (consciously or not), and then, go to hell.

Hope I have answered your question, now.

Peace

wildguest1956

Firstly, the Quran must be understood as a whole not picj and choose what suits you or suits your man made god you took for yourself

Let me give a logical point

If in a location it says you need 1 & 2 for salvation and in another location it says you need 1 for salvation

What we need to do is combine the two to get the final result

i.e. we need 1 & 2 for salvation (going to heaven and avoiding hell at the same time)

Your argument is illogical anyway because how come those disbelievers use Allah words to prove their point?

In all these verses it seems to me that the rewards for those disbelievers will be in this life because the heaven was never mentioned unlike the other verses I posted
Logically speaking entering heaven means not entering hell, but ?Not entering hell? does not mean entering heaven, LOL, do you get my point?

Salam

Peace Ahmed,

Do you know the logical fallacy ?Denying the Antecedent? ?

Denying the antecedent (also known as vacuous implication) is a type of logical fallacy.

Suppose in an argument one were to deny the "if" part of a conditional (the antecedent) first, and conclude with the denial of "then" part (the consequent).

If P, then Q.
P is false.
Therefore, Q is false.

This argument form has the name denying the antecedent, because in arguing this way one does indeed deny the antecedent in the second premise. This is a non sequitur (irrelevant conclusion). If we argue this way, we make a mistake.

One can see this with an example

If I'm asleep, my eyes are closed.
I'm not asleep.
Therefore, my eyes are not closed.

Clearly, the fact that my eyes are closed when I sleep does not exclude the possibility that I might close my eyes while being fully awake.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent

In our example
P = X is a believer who do good deeds
Q = X will go to paradise

The Quran states If P, then Q If X is a believer who do good deeds, X will go to paradise.

Assume one case where P is false X is a disbeliever who do good deeds

Then, the conclusion Therefore Q is false = Therefore X will not go to paradise = Therefore X will go to hell is a logical fallacy.

It is like the above example where
P = I'm asleep
Q = my eyes are closed

Peace

Tay

Peace Ahmed, all,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. You didn't anser the second question, however, which is instrumental in the point I was trying to make. The question was, why do atheists do good deeds?

The conclusion being that those who do good deeds may be, by default, believers. Otherwise, what's the purpose of doing good?

One may argue that the laws of a given country force people into behaving. I would say that behaving and doing good are not the same. One can easily live as a law-abiding citizen in a nation while doing no good deeds. In this sense, and I believe what is represented in the Qur'an as well, "good deeds" is regarding actions and thoughts that one goes out of their way to promote, ie, sheltering and feeding the homeless, providing for orphans, caring for the elderly and disabled, etc.

Anyway, I'm not married to this idea, but there does seem to be something there, especially considering the Qur'an usually follows "good deeds" with "believer".

Peace,
Tay

warner

Peace JM/Nadeem

You have not replied to all the issues I raised.

A disbeliever (whether he is a good doer or bad) does not believe in the Day of Judgment or Heaven. So I do not understand why you are concerned about him, while even he is not concerned about heaven or hell. I guess for this reason God will not reward him with Heaven.

45 34

Yusuf Ali
It will also be said "This Day We will forget you as ye forgot the meeting of this Day of yours! And your abode is the Fire and no helpers have ye!

Also , I guess your definition of good works is too narrow. If you read through the Quraan you will understand following all of Gods commands will constitute to being righteous and it is not only being good to humankind. Example, not judging by the light of what God has revealed or throwing away /neglecting Gods signs will be considered by God as bad deeds although the disbeliever will not care, further to give you an example from today?s society homosexuality or interest is considered completely accepted but this is considered bad deeds by God.

wildguest1956

Peace JM/Nadeem

You have not replied to all the issues I raised.

A disbeliever (whether he is a good doer or bad) does not believe in the Day of Judgment or Heaven. So I do not understand why you are concerned about him, while even he is not concerned about heaven or hell. I guess for this reason God will not reward him with Heaven.

45 34

Yusuf Ali
It will also be said "This Day We will forget you as ye forgot the meeting of this Day of yours! And your abode is the Fire and no helpers have ye!

There are verses like this one which say that the disbelievers will go to hell.
And there are also verses like according to which everyone is to be judge according to his deeds.

It gives a contradiction when we come to asses the fate of the disbelievers who do good deeds.

Since there is no contradiction in the Quran, the only solution I see to this equation is that there is a contradiction between being a disbeliever (kuffar) and doing good deeds.
In the same way, we can conclude that there is a contradiction between being a believer (mumin) and doing bad deeds.

One of the mistakes we are making relies on the hidden assumption that one should be either a mumin or a kafir. This is wrong there are many intermediary states between these 2 extreme ones.
In , there are people who are muslim but not mumin. Clearly, they are not kuffar.

I think that the kuffar are only the ones to whom the message of God has been clearly exposed, and who refuse to accept it. Until that, they are ignorants (jahileen). But this theory has to be verified.

Also , I guess your definition of good works is too narrow. If you read through the Quraan you will understand following all of Gods commands will constitute to being righteous and it is not only being good to humankind. Example, not judging by the light of what God has revealed or throwing away /neglecting Gods signs will be considered by God as bad deeds although the disbeliever will not care, further to give you an example from today?s society homosexuality or interest is considered completely accepted but this is considered bad deeds by God.

You are making wrong assumptions about how I define good and wrong deeds.

Please read again my previous post.

Peace

warner

49 14
Pickthall

The wandering Arabs say We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The verse 4914 is one of the most misused verses in the Quraan and some base this verse to give a whole new interpretation to believing and submitting while ignoring so many verses on these 2 important factors. The prophet has been advised by God what to say in many circumstances when different persons meet him or confront him. For example how to reply to the believing and non believing Jews and Christians, what to say to believing women, believers, hypocrites and pagans and also different answers or comments under different circumstances. The above verse is what to say when desert Arabs come to the prophet. Please read all other verses with regard to Arabs and what the prophet is instructed to say. The ?submit? in this verse does not mean the desert Arabs have totally submitted to one God. It only means that they have ?surrendered?. I hope you will understand from this point.

There is a confusion for many on the degree of belief and the degree of submission. Belief and submission can be looked in two different angles. Believer and/or submitter among men and believer and submitter in front of God. I like to think I am a believer and a submitter. People around me might think so too. Even I can openly say I believe, like the desert Arabs in 4914. But God knows the truth. What guarantee have I got whether I am accepted as a believer and a submitter by God? That my belief is not tainted with shirk. And my actions were solely were for God. We can receive guidance from the Quraan and it will show us the straight path, if God wills . Also we can try and make every effort to be righteous. But we can not purify ourselves and can not be certain because we will not know whether we are truly successful till the last minute.

nadeem

quick note

When I was 13, about 3 years ago, I did some research on the term "disbelievers" in the quran. My conclusion was that "a disbeliever" is one whom is anti-social. I even claimed that "a disbeliever" is a psychopath. I read many articles on psychopaths and my comparison showed that many traits found in psychopaths are attributed to the disbeliever in the quran. A shocking resemblance. The verse that made me think of this in the first place is the verse which says "In their minds is a disease". The word psychopath itself means "a suffering mind". ALL of the traits matched, except two or three that I could not place since I didn't understand what it ment.

I have decided to restart my research, and i am taking notes what a disbeliever is. Not because i reject my old findings, but since I believe that need to be more thorough than last time.

For those interested in seeing my notes and progress
http//www.reflekterselv.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,99999999/topic,903.0

You'll be having to scroll past the references.

Those who can speak norwegian, can read my old article here
http//www.reflekterselv.com/koranen/hvem_er_vantro.html

If you want to compare a psychopath to the disbeliever
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopath#What_is_a_psychopath.3F

Nadeem

unknownuser

Peace nadeem. I have been thinking the same for some time now.....A kind of mental illness caused by illusions and bad conditioning of the mind.....Its even funny/sad how those with this full blown mental disease AIDS, (aquired incredibly dogmatic syndrome.) brand others as having this illness(kufr,disbelief.),while being wholly unaware of their own disease and its true symptoms....Like a paranoid schizophrenic thinking everbody else is deluded...
Oh,the lesser precuser form of this disease is HIV...(having intolerance verbally.)
The cure to these diseases is to free the mind of intolerance to other possible alternative viewpoints,to free the mind of dogmatic thoughts,and to re-condition the mind towards a more practical and reality based way of life,...then to continue this process to avoid relapses.....
peace muscle handshake

unknownuser

Peace nadeem. Very good research and findings bro.... bravo

nadeem

Hi enquirer,

I share your thoughts on this and I'm glad my research benefits you -)

However, what puzzles me, is that psychopathy as defined medically, is incurable, it can be suppressed and "controlled", but it's there all the time. In the quran however, there are some kafirs that can be cured, while others cannot. The cure being what you have prescribed in your post.

So, it seems that there are several, at least two, kinds of kafirs.

In the name of the theory of duality, do I dare say that same goes for "believers"?

Nadeem.

unknownuser

peace nadeem.WOW,you are really addressing some good practical issues bro..... bravo
I have been reading a book called 'families they **** you up'.....(i will try to get the author for you tommorow.) and in it it stated that schizophrenia can be reversed/cured WITHOUT medication......Now i dont have reams of objective scientific evidence for this,but in my experience (and i have worked a little in this field.) i believe this can possibly be true...
In some case it may be suppresses/controlled,and in others it may be eliminated practically speaking....Im a great believer in will power overcoming mental deficiencies....(not totally,but at least to a possible measurable extent.) Cognitive behavioural therapy agrees with these thoughts to some extent.....In some cases the illness may be genetic and/or physically pretty fixed,but progressive/new science and will-power/re-conditioning can help greatly....
As for the duality,i believe you are 100% right,a believer can change to a kafir if they program their soul incorrectly or if they are too relaxed/ignorant in their thinking....That is why i feel salat/prayer/meditation/conditioning is an exercise one must keep up to reasonable speed with,or the mind can degenerate badly due to all the negativity,false information,illusions,harmful desires and negative emotions that are just waiting to infect/re-infect our minds....... We all need to be on guard,and have personal insight into our own mental processes.....And we at times need a major overhaul,and spring-clean of our minds and thought processes/thinking patterns...
ps; some of the info i post in this post is not fully verified,and are theories i am trying to think about/verify.....But they do have some grounding in reality.......Wouldnt want myself becoming a mad-man hey....
pps; as for kafirs who 'cant' be cured or vice versa,it may be because the person does not want to be cured,or a lack of adequate science/knowledge/medical care to cure them.....

nadeem

Hi Enquirer,

WOW,you are really addressing some good practical issues bro.....

Thanks, I was hoping that this research would go beyond a simple theoritical value -)

I too, am a big believer in mind and will power. And I believe that mind is capable of the most amazing things.

However, I don't know whether the limiations of mind is in our gene or in our ignorance of it. Maybe a mixof both, perhaps?

I liked your inputs on programming and salat. They really make sense, and haven't thought of them to such an extent as you have demonstrated, even though I was somewhat aware it's impact on us. Thanks -)

pps; as for kafirs who 'cant' be cured or vice versa,it may be because the person does not want to be cured,or a lack of adequate science/knowledge/medical care to cure them.....

I believe god gives everyone a chance to repent. It doesn't make sense to give someone a chance when they cannot take it due to factors such a medical ones that they have no control of. I believe that it is because of their arrogance and that they are stubborn.

Thus, I lean towards the understanding that their resemblance psychopathy should not be taken literally, but metaphorically. However I remain open to the opposite, as there certainly seem to be good basis for such an understanding.

Nadeem

unknownuser

Peace nadeem. I will try to answer your question fully tommorow about whether the limitations in our minds are genetic,or because of our ignorance of the mind,or both....A fascinating and practical topic.....once again.... bravo
ps;check out some of idolfrees posts on salat,programming,meditation and behaviour modification/shaping....Some Fantastic insights that you can try to verify for yourself if they are correct or not..... bravo

nadeem

Hi enquirer,

I look forward to your post.

Idolfree's is always on my priority list. I will try to read more from himand try to verify -)

Have a good day!

Nadeem

warner

Thank you for the information on psychopaths and people with a disease in their minds.

Can a person be a psychopath from birth?
What are the reasons a person turn out to be one?
Also what percentage of the population has psychopathic conditions?

I believe when a person?s life is based on false beliefs and false submission and rejects the truth he/she may turn in to someone with many of the qualities of a psychopath. I read somewhere that a person with true faith in God can not suffer any mental illnesses.

I guess this soundness of mind is reflected in the following verses.

26 89

Yusuf Ali "But only he (will prosper) that brings to Allah a sound heart;
Transliteration Il la_ man atal la_ha biqalbin salim

AND

37 83
Yusuf Ali Verily among those who followed his Way was Abraham.
Transliteration Wa ina min Syiatihi la ibra_him

37 84Yusuf Ali Behold He approached his Lord with a sound heart.
Transliteration Iz ja_ a rab bahu_ biqalbin salim

But I am not certain about the psychopath = disbeliever or disbeliever= psychopath equation.

lowtech

what people seem to be missing here is that people who do not believe...they may have good deeds. However, they have more then enough bad deeds to nullify the good. For example; there maybe aetheists who give to charity and help needy people all the time. They may also be more envolved by giving there actual time to help people. But at the same time, mosts aethiests don't have a problem with having sex without being married, they dont have a problem with eating pork or drinking alcohol on a regular basis and occasionally getting drunk too. They don't have a problem with abortions. They definately don't have a problem speaking ill of other people without proof or just talking trash about someone simply because they dont like them. To be a good persong and doing good things according to islam, you have to rid yourselves of this behaviour. First find someone who doesn't believe that also has none of those bad qualities...then maybe your theory will hold water. Perhaps its because God know of the impossibility of such a person existing that its not mentioned in the quran.

Similarly, true believers do not do bad deeds. one might feel in their heart they do believe. However, if you are doing bad deeds such as lying or commiting adultery or constantly backbite then your belief in my opinion is not strong enough for you to be considered a believer.

Also, I agree with Ahmed et all that believe that 4914 is very misused by a lot of people on this site. The reason these people were told to say you submit rather then believe is because those people had very limited knowledge of quran. They simply heard about the prophet and some of the things he was doing and they wanted to join him. The prophet was told by god to tell them to say you have submitted instead because they could not possibly believe when they had no knowledge of what was actually in the quran. Instead they were told to submit and listen to the prophet which would in turn give them knowledge of what's in the quran which would then in turn increase their faith and they would hopefully become believers. There is an article here on free minds titled submiters vs believers. While I don't agree with the whole article, I do believe in parts of it. Mainly, I agree that believers are held to a higher set of standards than submitters and in order for them be considered believers by god, they need to live by those standards. I may have knowledge of whats in the quran and feel that I am a believer, but if I do bad deeds than god does not consider me to be a true believer. What I truly would be is a submitter. Hopefully God would forgive me of my bad deeds and reward me for my good deeds, but that's up to God.

There was someone else that asked if he/she would go to heaven if he did good deeds but wasn't a believer. You don't have to be an unbeliever if you don't believe. You can also be a submitter. You can be someone who lives and does good according to the Quran and go to heaven. A submitter is somewhere between a believer and a disbeliever. A true believer will definately go to heaven in my opinion but it is up God to decide wether or not you truly are a believer. Remember, a believer does not do bad deeds and does do good deeds and lives by a higher standard in order for god to consider him/her a believer. A Disbeliever will definatly go to hell in my opinion. They may have good deeds but they have not submit and god will not forgive them of their bad deeds. A submitter is someone who may go to heaven or may go to hell. It all depends on the weight of you good deeds vs the weight of your bad. Hopefully based on your good deeds god will forgive you your bad deeds and grant you admission into heaven. So just because you are not a believer does not make you a disbeliever.

This is all based on my knowledge of the quran to this point. I still need more knowledge of wether or not God mentions forgiveness from bad deeds regarding the believers anywhere in the Quran and wether or not those bad deeds were before god considered them to be believers, as that would throw my theory completely down the drain.

nadeem

Peace!

Brother Warner,

Can a person be a psychopath from birth?

I'm not sure, but from what I've read, it appears to be so.

I read somewhere that a person with true faith in God can not suffer any mental illnesses.

I'd be careful with such a notion.

Suppose there is a man, that has lived his life in total devotion to god. But something terrible happens... he grows old. And at such an age, mental disorders which have been lying hidden in his genes, starts to appear. Would you say that this person is no longer a true believer?

Think of those with tourettes for example.

But I am not certain about the psychopath = disbeliever or disbeliever= psychopath equation.

I believe if taken literally, there is definitly contradictions. However, if taken metaphorically, it will make more sense.

It's like when the quran says "A bad word is like a tree chopped at ground level".(from memory)

If I start throwing bad words at you, it doesn't mean that there are trees coming out of mouth. Only the literal-fanatic would claim so.

Similarly, the resemblances doesn't mean that the two are one and the same physically.

The quran says that they're (the kafir) dumb, deaf and blind. Yet other verses say that they spoke, heard and rejected what they witnessed. If the analogy is taken literally in the first place, we have a contradiction.

A kafir is dumb, deaf and blind, but that doesn't mean that one wich is physically handicapped and born wihout these abilities is a kafir.

Similarly a psychopath may not neccessarily be a kafir. Thus the "Kafir = Psychopath" is wrong if not properly explained more clearly, else if taken seriously, alot of people who have not comitted any crime but being sick will be mistreated on the basis of such an understanding.

I hope I was clear and not confusing.

Brother Lowtech,

what people seem to be missing here is that people who do not believe...they may have good deeds. However, they have more then enough bad deeds to nullify the good. For example; there maybe aetheists who give to charity and help needy people all the time. They may also be more envolved by giving there actual time to help people. But at the same time, mosts aethiests don't have a problem with having sex without being married, they dont have a problem with eating pork or drinking alcohol on a regular basis and occasionally getting drunk too. They don't have a problem with abortions. They definately don't have a problem speaking ill of other people without proof or just talking trash about someone simply because they dont like them.

These are awful things to say. What you are describing here is the phenomena which many eloquently describe as "Moron". And these morons are to be found in every belief. To single out the atheist because of their lacking belief is...well...moronic. Do you really believe that belief in god will make these people better? (those of them who need to be). Didn't satan believe in God? Yet, he is the greatest rejecter. Go figure.

To be a good persong and doing good things according to islam, you have to rid yourselves of this behaviour. First find someone who doesn't believe that also has none of those bad qualities...then maybe your theory will hold water

Find one person who does no evil, or else you shall swear that there are no muslims to be found!

Hope you see the flaw in your reasoning.

About 4914. I do not understand the reasoning that if an arab from that time is asked not to believe before belief comes to him, then that means everyone else should believe before belief come to them. Does not make sense.

And if your statements are correct, then you should admit that parts of the quran is outdated as they neither apply to us nor are we permitted to learn from the moral within.

Yet, even if we accept that 4914 is limited to the arab. There is no denying that, one who follow the quran, and understand 3918 and 1736, will do exactly as prophet ordered the arabs to do - They will wait for belief to come to them, patiently trying research and verify.

All in all, it's up to god to decide. Our conclusions on whom goes where on J-Day has no meaning other than to give us the satisfaction and security of knowing - let's not forget.

nadeem.