"those who believe and do good works" - 2:62 and 3:21

warner

Peace JM/Nadeem

You have not replied to all the issues I raised.

A disbeliever (whether he is a good doer or bad) does not believe in the Day of Judgment or Heaven. So I do not understand why you are concerned about him, while even he is not concerned about heaven or hell. I guess for this reason God will not reward him with Heaven.

45 34

Yusuf Ali
It will also be said "This Day We will forget you as ye forgot the meeting of this Day of yours! And your abode is the Fire and no helpers have ye!

Also , I guess your definition of good works is too narrow. If you read through the Quraan you will understand following all of Gods commands will constitute to being righteous and it is not only being good to humankind. Example, not judging by the light of what God has revealed or throwing away /neglecting Gods signs will be considered by God as bad deeds although the disbeliever will not care, further to give you an example from today?s society homosexuality or interest is considered completely accepted but this is considered bad deeds by God.

wildguest1956

Peace JM/Nadeem

You have not replied to all the issues I raised.

A disbeliever (whether he is a good doer or bad) does not believe in the Day of Judgment or Heaven. So I do not understand why you are concerned about him, while even he is not concerned about heaven or hell. I guess for this reason God will not reward him with Heaven.

45 34

Yusuf Ali
It will also be said "This Day We will forget you as ye forgot the meeting of this Day of yours! And your abode is the Fire and no helpers have ye!

There are verses like this one which say that the disbelievers will go to hell.
And there are also verses like according to which everyone is to be judge according to his deeds.

It gives a contradiction when we come to asses the fate of the disbelievers who do good deeds.

Since there is no contradiction in the Quran, the only solution I see to this equation is that there is a contradiction between being a disbeliever (kuffar) and doing good deeds.
In the same way, we can conclude that there is a contradiction between being a believer (mumin) and doing bad deeds.

One of the mistakes we are making relies on the hidden assumption that one should be either a mumin or a kafir. This is wrong there are many intermediary states between these 2 extreme ones.
In , there are people who are muslim but not mumin. Clearly, they are not kuffar.

I think that the kuffar are only the ones to whom the message of God has been clearly exposed, and who refuse to accept it. Until that, they are ignorants (jahileen). But this theory has to be verified.

Also , I guess your definition of good works is too narrow. If you read through the Quraan you will understand following all of Gods commands will constitute to being righteous and it is not only being good to humankind. Example, not judging by the light of what God has revealed or throwing away /neglecting Gods signs will be considered by God as bad deeds although the disbeliever will not care, further to give you an example from today?s society homosexuality or interest is considered completely accepted but this is considered bad deeds by God.

You are making wrong assumptions about how I define good and wrong deeds.

Please read again my previous post.

Peace

warner

49 14
Pickthall

The wandering Arabs say We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The verse 4914 is one of the most misused verses in the Quraan and some base this verse to give a whole new interpretation to believing and submitting while ignoring so many verses on these 2 important factors. The prophet has been advised by God what to say in many circumstances when different persons meet him or confront him. For example how to reply to the believing and non believing Jews and Christians, what to say to believing women, believers, hypocrites and pagans and also different answers or comments under different circumstances. The above verse is what to say when desert Arabs come to the prophet. Please read all other verses with regard to Arabs and what the prophet is instructed to say. The ?submit? in this verse does not mean the desert Arabs have totally submitted to one God. It only means that they have ?surrendered?. I hope you will understand from this point.

There is a confusion for many on the degree of belief and the degree of submission. Belief and submission can be looked in two different angles. Believer and/or submitter among men and believer and submitter in front of God. I like to think I am a believer and a submitter. People around me might think so too. Even I can openly say I believe, like the desert Arabs in 4914. But God knows the truth. What guarantee have I got whether I am accepted as a believer and a submitter by God? That my belief is not tainted with shirk. And my actions were solely were for God. We can receive guidance from the Quraan and it will show us the straight path, if God wills . Also we can try and make every effort to be righteous. But we can not purify ourselves and can not be certain because we will not know whether we are truly successful till the last minute.

nadeem

quick note

When I was 13, about 3 years ago, I did some research on the term "disbelievers" in the quran. My conclusion was that "a disbeliever" is one whom is anti-social. I even claimed that "a disbeliever" is a psychopath. I read many articles on psychopaths and my comparison showed that many traits found in psychopaths are attributed to the disbeliever in the quran. A shocking resemblance. The verse that made me think of this in the first place is the verse which says "In their minds is a disease". The word psychopath itself means "a suffering mind". ALL of the traits matched, except two or three that I could not place since I didn't understand what it ment.

I have decided to restart my research, and i am taking notes what a disbeliever is. Not because i reject my old findings, but since I believe that need to be more thorough than last time.

For those interested in seeing my notes and progress
http//www.reflekterselv.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,99999999/topic,903.0

You'll be having to scroll past the references.

Those who can speak norwegian, can read my old article here
http//www.reflekterselv.com/koranen/hvem_er_vantro.html

If you want to compare a psychopath to the disbeliever
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopath#What_is_a_psychopath.3F

Nadeem

unknownuser

Peace nadeem. I have been thinking the same for some time now.....A kind of mental illness caused by illusions and bad conditioning of the mind.....Its even funny/sad how those with this full blown mental disease AIDS, (aquired incredibly dogmatic syndrome.) brand others as having this illness(kufr,disbelief.),while being wholly unaware of their own disease and its true symptoms....Like a paranoid schizophrenic thinking everbody else is deluded...
Oh,the lesser precuser form of this disease is HIV...(having intolerance verbally.)
The cure to these diseases is to free the mind of intolerance to other possible alternative viewpoints,to free the mind of dogmatic thoughts,and to re-condition the mind towards a more practical and reality based way of life,...then to continue this process to avoid relapses.....
peace muscle handshake

unknownuser

Peace nadeem. Very good research and findings bro.... bravo

nadeem

Hi enquirer,

I share your thoughts on this and I'm glad my research benefits you -)

However, what puzzles me, is that psychopathy as defined medically, is incurable, it can be suppressed and "controlled", but it's there all the time. In the quran however, there are some kafirs that can be cured, while others cannot. The cure being what you have prescribed in your post.

So, it seems that there are several, at least two, kinds of kafirs.

In the name of the theory of duality, do I dare say that same goes for "believers"?

Nadeem.

unknownuser

peace nadeem.WOW,you are really addressing some good practical issues bro..... bravo
I have been reading a book called 'families they **** you up'.....(i will try to get the author for you tommorow.) and in it it stated that schizophrenia can be reversed/cured WITHOUT medication......Now i dont have reams of objective scientific evidence for this,but in my experience (and i have worked a little in this field.) i believe this can possibly be true...
In some case it may be suppresses/controlled,and in others it may be eliminated practically speaking....Im a great believer in will power overcoming mental deficiencies....(not totally,but at least to a possible measurable extent.) Cognitive behavioural therapy agrees with these thoughts to some extent.....In some cases the illness may be genetic and/or physically pretty fixed,but progressive/new science and will-power/re-conditioning can help greatly....
As for the duality,i believe you are 100% right,a believer can change to a kafir if they program their soul incorrectly or if they are too relaxed/ignorant in their thinking....That is why i feel salat/prayer/meditation/conditioning is an exercise one must keep up to reasonable speed with,or the mind can degenerate badly due to all the negativity,false information,illusions,harmful desires and negative emotions that are just waiting to infect/re-infect our minds....... We all need to be on guard,and have personal insight into our own mental processes.....And we at times need a major overhaul,and spring-clean of our minds and thought processes/thinking patterns...
ps; some of the info i post in this post is not fully verified,and are theories i am trying to think about/verify.....But they do have some grounding in reality.......Wouldnt want myself becoming a mad-man hey....
pps; as for kafirs who 'cant' be cured or vice versa,it may be because the person does not want to be cured,or a lack of adequate science/knowledge/medical care to cure them.....

nadeem

Hi Enquirer,

WOW,you are really addressing some good practical issues bro.....

Thanks, I was hoping that this research would go beyond a simple theoritical value -)

I too, am a big believer in mind and will power. And I believe that mind is capable of the most amazing things.

However, I don't know whether the limiations of mind is in our gene or in our ignorance of it. Maybe a mixof both, perhaps?

I liked your inputs on programming and salat. They really make sense, and haven't thought of them to such an extent as you have demonstrated, even though I was somewhat aware it's impact on us. Thanks -)

pps; as for kafirs who 'cant' be cured or vice versa,it may be because the person does not want to be cured,or a lack of adequate science/knowledge/medical care to cure them.....

I believe god gives everyone a chance to repent. It doesn't make sense to give someone a chance when they cannot take it due to factors such a medical ones that they have no control of. I believe that it is because of their arrogance and that they are stubborn.

Thus, I lean towards the understanding that their resemblance psychopathy should not be taken literally, but metaphorically. However I remain open to the opposite, as there certainly seem to be good basis for such an understanding.

Nadeem

unknownuser

Peace nadeem. I will try to answer your question fully tommorow about whether the limitations in our minds are genetic,or because of our ignorance of the mind,or both....A fascinating and practical topic.....once again.... bravo
ps;check out some of idolfrees posts on salat,programming,meditation and behaviour modification/shaping....Some Fantastic insights that you can try to verify for yourself if they are correct or not..... bravo

nadeem

Hi enquirer,

I look forward to your post.

Idolfree's is always on my priority list. I will try to read more from himand try to verify -)

Have a good day!

Nadeem

warner

Thank you for the information on psychopaths and people with a disease in their minds.

Can a person be a psychopath from birth?
What are the reasons a person turn out to be one?
Also what percentage of the population has psychopathic conditions?

I believe when a person?s life is based on false beliefs and false submission and rejects the truth he/she may turn in to someone with many of the qualities of a psychopath. I read somewhere that a person with true faith in God can not suffer any mental illnesses.

I guess this soundness of mind is reflected in the following verses.

26 89

Yusuf Ali "But only he (will prosper) that brings to Allah a sound heart;
Transliteration Il la_ man atal la_ha biqalbin salim

AND

37 83
Yusuf Ali Verily among those who followed his Way was Abraham.
Transliteration Wa ina min Syiatihi la ibra_him

37 84Yusuf Ali Behold He approached his Lord with a sound heart.
Transliteration Iz ja_ a rab bahu_ biqalbin salim

But I am not certain about the psychopath = disbeliever or disbeliever= psychopath equation.

lowtech

what people seem to be missing here is that people who do not believe...they may have good deeds. However, they have more then enough bad deeds to nullify the good. For example; there maybe aetheists who give to charity and help needy people all the time. They may also be more envolved by giving there actual time to help people. But at the same time, mosts aethiests don't have a problem with having sex without being married, they dont have a problem with eating pork or drinking alcohol on a regular basis and occasionally getting drunk too. They don't have a problem with abortions. They definately don't have a problem speaking ill of other people without proof or just talking trash about someone simply because they dont like them. To be a good persong and doing good things according to islam, you have to rid yourselves of this behaviour. First find someone who doesn't believe that also has none of those bad qualities...then maybe your theory will hold water. Perhaps its because God know of the impossibility of such a person existing that its not mentioned in the quran.

Similarly, true believers do not do bad deeds. one might feel in their heart they do believe. However, if you are doing bad deeds such as lying or commiting adultery or constantly backbite then your belief in my opinion is not strong enough for you to be considered a believer.

Also, I agree with Ahmed et all that believe that 4914 is very misused by a lot of people on this site. The reason these people were told to say you submit rather then believe is because those people had very limited knowledge of quran. They simply heard about the prophet and some of the things he was doing and they wanted to join him. The prophet was told by god to tell them to say you have submitted instead because they could not possibly believe when they had no knowledge of what was actually in the quran. Instead they were told to submit and listen to the prophet which would in turn give them knowledge of what's in the quran which would then in turn increase their faith and they would hopefully become believers. There is an article here on free minds titled submiters vs believers. While I don't agree with the whole article, I do believe in parts of it. Mainly, I agree that believers are held to a higher set of standards than submitters and in order for them be considered believers by god, they need to live by those standards. I may have knowledge of whats in the quran and feel that I am a believer, but if I do bad deeds than god does not consider me to be a true believer. What I truly would be is a submitter. Hopefully God would forgive me of my bad deeds and reward me for my good deeds, but that's up to God.

There was someone else that asked if he/she would go to heaven if he did good deeds but wasn't a believer. You don't have to be an unbeliever if you don't believe. You can also be a submitter. You can be someone who lives and does good according to the Quran and go to heaven. A submitter is somewhere between a believer and a disbeliever. A true believer will definately go to heaven in my opinion but it is up God to decide wether or not you truly are a believer. Remember, a believer does not do bad deeds and does do good deeds and lives by a higher standard in order for god to consider him/her a believer. A Disbeliever will definatly go to hell in my opinion. They may have good deeds but they have not submit and god will not forgive them of their bad deeds. A submitter is someone who may go to heaven or may go to hell. It all depends on the weight of you good deeds vs the weight of your bad. Hopefully based on your good deeds god will forgive you your bad deeds and grant you admission into heaven. So just because you are not a believer does not make you a disbeliever.

This is all based on my knowledge of the quran to this point. I still need more knowledge of wether or not God mentions forgiveness from bad deeds regarding the believers anywhere in the Quran and wether or not those bad deeds were before god considered them to be believers, as that would throw my theory completely down the drain.

nadeem

Peace!

Brother Warner,

Can a person be a psychopath from birth?

I'm not sure, but from what I've read, it appears to be so.

I read somewhere that a person with true faith in God can not suffer any mental illnesses.

I'd be careful with such a notion.

Suppose there is a man, that has lived his life in total devotion to god. But something terrible happens... he grows old. And at such an age, mental disorders which have been lying hidden in his genes, starts to appear. Would you say that this person is no longer a true believer?

Think of those with tourettes for example.

But I am not certain about the psychopath = disbeliever or disbeliever= psychopath equation.

I believe if taken literally, there is definitly contradictions. However, if taken metaphorically, it will make more sense.

It's like when the quran says "A bad word is like a tree chopped at ground level".(from memory)

If I start throwing bad words at you, it doesn't mean that there are trees coming out of mouth. Only the literal-fanatic would claim so.

Similarly, the resemblances doesn't mean that the two are one and the same physically.

The quran says that they're (the kafir) dumb, deaf and blind. Yet other verses say that they spoke, heard and rejected what they witnessed. If the analogy is taken literally in the first place, we have a contradiction.

A kafir is dumb, deaf and blind, but that doesn't mean that one wich is physically handicapped and born wihout these abilities is a kafir.

Similarly a psychopath may not neccessarily be a kafir. Thus the "Kafir = Psychopath" is wrong if not properly explained more clearly, else if taken seriously, alot of people who have not comitted any crime but being sick will be mistreated on the basis of such an understanding.

I hope I was clear and not confusing.

Brother Lowtech,

what people seem to be missing here is that people who do not believe...they may have good deeds. However, they have more then enough bad deeds to nullify the good. For example; there maybe aetheists who give to charity and help needy people all the time. They may also be more envolved by giving there actual time to help people. But at the same time, mosts aethiests don't have a problem with having sex without being married, they dont have a problem with eating pork or drinking alcohol on a regular basis and occasionally getting drunk too. They don't have a problem with abortions. They definately don't have a problem speaking ill of other people without proof or just talking trash about someone simply because they dont like them.

These are awful things to say. What you are describing here is the phenomena which many eloquently describe as "Moron". And these morons are to be found in every belief. To single out the atheist because of their lacking belief is...well...moronic. Do you really believe that belief in god will make these people better? (those of them who need to be). Didn't satan believe in God? Yet, he is the greatest rejecter. Go figure.

To be a good persong and doing good things according to islam, you have to rid yourselves of this behaviour. First find someone who doesn't believe that also has none of those bad qualities...then maybe your theory will hold water

Find one person who does no evil, or else you shall swear that there are no muslims to be found!

Hope you see the flaw in your reasoning.

About 4914. I do not understand the reasoning that if an arab from that time is asked not to believe before belief comes to him, then that means everyone else should believe before belief come to them. Does not make sense.

And if your statements are correct, then you should admit that parts of the quran is outdated as they neither apply to us nor are we permitted to learn from the moral within.

Yet, even if we accept that 4914 is limited to the arab. There is no denying that, one who follow the quran, and understand 3918 and 1736, will do exactly as prophet ordered the arabs to do - They will wait for belief to come to them, patiently trying research and verify.

All in all, it's up to god to decide. Our conclusions on whom goes where on J-Day has no meaning other than to give us the satisfaction and security of knowing - let's not forget.

nadeem.

wildguest1956

49 14
Pickthall

The wandering Arabs say We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad) Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The verse 4914 is one of the most misused verses in the Quraan and some base this verse to give a whole new interpretation to believing and submitting while ignoring so many verses on these 2 important factors. The prophet has been advised by God what to say in many circumstances when different persons meet him or confront him. For example how to reply to the believing and non believing Jews and Christians, what to say to believing women, believers, hypocrites and pagans and also different answers or comments under different circumstances. The above verse is what to say when desert Arabs come to the prophet. Please read all other verses with regard to Arabs and what the prophet is instructed to say. The ?submit? in this verse does not mean the desert Arabs have totally submitted to one God. It only means that they have ?surrendered?. I hope you will understand from this point.

There is a confusion for many on the degree of belief and the degree of submission. Belief and submission can be looked in two different angles. Believer and/or submitter among men and believer and submitter in front of God. I like to think I am a believer and a submitter. People around me might think so too. Even I can openly say I believe, like the desert Arabs in 4914. But God knows the truth. What guarantee have I got whether I am accepted as a believer and a submitter by God? That my belief is not tainted with shirk. And my actions were solely were for God. We can receive guidance from the Quraan and it will show us the straight path, if God wills . Also we can try and make every effort to be righteous. But we can not purify ourselves and can not be certain because we will not know whether we are truly successful till the last minute.

I am not sure I understand what you mean.

Here is how I understand it.
Islam is a system, a way of life ( a deen). It is also a social organization.
To submit (in ) = to be willing to live in this system, this social organization.
To believe = to be firmly convinced of the existence of God and of the hereafter, and, as a consequence, to act (publicly and privately) will hell and paradise in mind.

Do you agree ?

Peace

nadeem

For those interested

I have added this to my research

IS A REJECTER/HYPOCRITE A PSYCHOPATH?

Here is a list of what defines a psychopath. Under each trait, you can see the references to the verse which attributes thatsame trait to the kafir.

Glibness/superficial charm

2912 - They say "If you follow our way, we will be responsible for your sins."
634 - They speak eloquently, and impress by their physical apperances.

Grandiose sense of self-worth

638 - The uphold a "caste"-like system, where they're "the noble" and others are "lowly".
261, 1413 - they don't believe in religious freedom
382 - They are arrogant and defiant
3647 - They reject charity

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom

543 - They follow their desires and old traditions.

Pathological lying

611 - They're liars, and spies.
2912 - They say "If you follow our way, we will be responsible for your sins."
1623 - They recognize God's blessings, then they deny them.
370 - They reject what they themselves are witnesses of.
291, 3112 - While claiming to follow gods revelations to them, they kill prophets!
5103 - They invents lies against god, and laws god never approved

Conning/manipulative

2912 - They say "If you follow our way, we will be responsible for your sins."
214 - They cheat and deceive
634 - They speak eloquently, and impress by their physical apperances.
5916 - They use you for their own purpose, and then disown you.

Lack of remorse or guilt

18104 - They believe their doing good
212 - they are the evildoers, but they do not perceive

Shallow affect
While I'm unable to single out one verse which states "shallow affect" particularly, there are plenty of verses to show that they are indeed shallow.

Callous/lack of empathy
Again, I've not verse stating this particularly. But seeing their works and how they reacet, it's obvious they lack empathy.

Parasitic lifestyle

4161 - They take financial interest, and consume people money unjustly.
417 - "The ones who do not contribute towards betterment,"
4825 - They prevent donations from reaching their destination.

Poor behavioral controls

4137 - They're unable to decide, one moment they believe, the other they don't.

Promiscuous sexual behavior
Cannot remember the verse; unsure.

Early behavioral problems
Again, unsure.

Lack of realistic, long-term goals

4137 - They're unable to decide, one moment they believe, the other they don't.
3827 - They believe the creation is meaningless

Impulsivity

4137 - They're unable to decide, one moment they believe, the other they don't.

Irresponsibility

417 - Denial of the hereafter.
8519 - They are in denial
343 - They deny The Hour

Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

211 - unable to take responsibility for their deeds.

Many short-term marital relationships
Again, no clear statements on this from the quran. However, I expect that any person with a little self-worth would not bother putting up with the personality we are describing here.

Juvenile delinquency
No clear statement

Revocation of conditional release
As seen, this is likely, as the disbeliever is unable to keep his pledges and unable to keep on track

Criminal versatility
Again its likely, considering the enviroments such people would be intermingling in.

If anyone can fill in the blanks, I'd be very happy -)

Nadeem

unknownuser

Peace nadeem,lowtech,warner and all.
Nadeem; I think that the limitations of our mind have both a genetic and an environmental aspect.....But also another very,very important component,which is will-power....With correct use of will-power many genetic and environmental hardships can be transcended,just look at hellen kellor,stephen hawkins and sportsmen from the ghetto without natural physical advantages...The boxer pernell whitaker is an example. (a great,great boxer who was only 5 ft 6 inches tall and didnt have a knockout punch,yet beat many of the best of his era,who were physically bigger and harder punching than him.)
The genetic aspect of our mind may be dependent on biological factors,and how our very early conditioning goes,(first three years.) as this is when some say the mind is developing and learning at its most rapid....The conditioning aspect is how our parents and environment nuture our potential towards growth.....The will power aspect is a mixture of the previous two plus the vital ingredient,what niescthze called the 'will to power'...I dont take this as a negative or in terms of oppressing others,but in terms of willing oneself to be happy, (note;making other happy also makes us happier.) and trying to transcend hardship to the best of our ability....
This i believe is the aspect which we CAN control personally,the other factors being dependent on outside factors out of our control.....To me this is what life is all about,the will to sustainable happiness and development,to as many people as we humanly can....
I will add more given time,and i will try to respond to your post with the quranic references you quoted...
ps; very good replies to lowtech and warner.

Warner; I believe we all have the POTENTIAL to be psychopathic....This can happen through a mixture of environment,genetics and probably most importantly mis-use of will-power...Bad conditioning,illusions,delusions, lack of control of emotions and mistaken information can lead to severe anger and mindset.....Just look at the muslims who started off gentle and peaceful when first converting,then became radical and psychopathical because of bad information,illusions and brainwashing,leading to killing of innocents and much destruction......A believer cant be a pyschopath? There is no doubt many are.....Just look at 7-7,madrid,mumbai,bali,palestine etc,etc... And it can be caused by the negative indoctrination of naive,vulnerable people.....We need to stop the mass indoctrination,or there may be more afghanistans,al quedas,christian extremists,talibans and such like....

lowtech; Hey,im probably considered an atheist by many,yet i dont get drunk,i dont like abortion,i dont cheat on my wife,i try to take responsibility for my actions and speech,i try to teach my kids right from wrong,and i try to be a moral person.....Not because i fear some man in the sky or a single judgement day,but because i know that my actions have real consequences in this world,and i know that hurting people for no reason or because of being irresponsible is not a productive or pleasant way to live....Have i messed up your theory.....?

warner

Quote enquirer
ps; very good replies to lowtech?.

And

Nadeems reply to lowtech

..To single out the atheist because of their lacking belief is...well...moronic.

Quote enquirer

.....Just look at the muslims who started off gentle and peaceful when first converting,then became radical and psychopathical because of bad information,illusions and brainwashing,leading to killing of innocents and much destruction......A believer cant be a pyschopath? There is no doubt many are.....Just look at 7-7,madrid,mumbai,bali,palestine etc,etc... And it can be caused by the negative indoctrination of naive,vulnerable people....

Thanks for telling us where you are come from.

A believer and a submitter can not be a psychopath and how do you know ?whether faith has entered in his heart?. As I explained, like explaining to a 2 year old , this is a believer from mans judgment and not Gods judgment. If you ever read the Quraan fully without looking for verses haphazardly you will understand a believer will not do this kind of things.

Quote enquirer
.....We need to stop the mass indoctrination,or there may be more
..

OK I am ready, where do we start

unknownuser

Peace warner. If man cannot make a judgement on who is a true believer or not,then all the verses on believers and unbelievers are irrelevant as only god can understand them.....How do you follow the instructions to deal with believers/disbelievers if you dont know truely who is in what category......
Are the people who kill innocents,yet proclaim to believe in god/islam not psychos....? Or do they have an excuse,cos id love to hear it....?
Finally,you want to know how to stop the indoctrination....? We need to stop teaching/propogating and disseminating harmful dogmas,illusions,wishful thinking and harmful fantasies that cannot be verified at all in real-life,and start teaching people how to really research,think,and practically behave in ways that benefit humanity,not a man in the sky...Hows that...? peace

lowtech

Peace Enquirer,

Peace warner. If man cannot make a judgement on who is a true believer or not,then all the verses on believers and unbelievers are irrelevant as only god can understand them.....How do you follow the instructions to deal with believers/disbelievers if you dont know truely who is in what category......
Are the people who kill innocents,yet proclaim to believe in god/islam not psychos....? Or do they have an excuse,cos id love to hear it....?
Finally,you want to know how to stop the indoctrination....? We need to stop teaching/propogating and disseminating harmful dogmas,illusions,wishful thinking and harmful fantasies that cannot be verified at all in real-life,and start teaching people how to really research,think,and practically behave in ways that benefit humanity,not a man in the sky...Hows that...? peace

I don't see how these verses can be considered to be irrelevant. At the least a submitter would want to strive to become a believer.

As far as if you messed up my theory...I'd have to say no. It seem to me that just being on this site for as long as you have...Even if you weren't raised in islam or maybe even you were raised in islam and rejected it at an early age. But you seem to have a decent knowledge of what's in the quran. Definately more than the mass sunni/shia indoctrinated "muslims". I don't know if you are a submitter or not. But being a disbeliever is pretty hard to do. I feel like having doubts as to wether or not there is an almighty being doesn't make you a disbeliever. What makes you a disbeliever in my opinion is when you say to yourself or others that god does not exist. I don't strive to be a good person out of fear of God and the hope of going to heaven. I do it because its the right thing. However, what the quran has written in it helped me early on to develop a moral code. I do believe in God and I do want to be in paradise after this world, but I try to do good because in makes me feel better as a person.

To nadeem. Im sorry we disagree, but I never said you have to believe in god to be go to heaven. I was trying to say that you have to live by a code of conduct that is found within the pages of the quran. Maybe there are people that have never read the quran but the live by the code of conduct found in the quran for whatever reason. they could be very spiritual, they could be christian who reject the concept of the trinity. But they cannot be people who reject that there is God and God is one. I haven't been rude to anyone here and we may disagree but I would not call your ideas or beliefs moronic no matter how strongly I may disagree with them. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.

peace all