GROUNDBREAKING QURANIC FINDING!!!
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God bless all,
Peace Anwar
This is a ground breaking finding that the Arabic speakers here who went to Quranic school will benefit from the most.
Cool, but I have to say that I didn?t go ever to a Quranic school, I only went to an Arabic school, in Arabic schools all over the Arab world they teach the same thing called Lugha Arabia Fusha, i.e. All Arab nations understand the Lugha Arabia Fusha and they can dialogue together using it, if the common Arabic used ?sort of the public/street one?, then you will see many Arabs can?t understand the common Arabic of another Arabic country, for example I hardly understand the common Iraqi Arabic, and I struggle a bit with the Moroccan Arabic as well some common Lebanese words sound foreign to me, however the easiest of the common Arabic styles is the Egyptian Arabic, i.e. you will see most Arabs understand the common Egyptian Arabic, I just wanted to clear this point out of the way.
I'm going to take us all back to Quranic school for a second and re-introduce something called Tajweez.
I guess you mean Tajweed?
Tajweez is the pronunciation of the Quran in recitation,
The statement above is not entirely accurate, it should be as follow
Tajweed is the PROPER pronunciation of the Quran in recitation
having its origins in the way that the Old Arabs pronounced the words when they spoke them.
Not really the above applies to the old Arabs alone, rather All Arabs, now and them, in fact Tajweed is the proper pronunciation to anything that can be read, it was just used a lot with the Quran. The word itself does not exist in the Quran, in fact Allah hardly stressed the requirement to read it properly RATHER to hear it properly, and properly means to understand the message given not to dispute its grammar, letters and points, this act of disputing should not be done by any believer from the first place.
An example of tajweez is the noon running into the the raa so that min-rabbihim sounds like mirrabihim or mirabbihim.
Sorry Anwar, I have never heard of such regarding ?min-rabbihim? in fact it can?t be said as ?mirrabihim or mirabbihim?, never heard of it and it makes no sense, the ?NUN? must br pronounced for a proper pronouciation (Tajweed) IT CAN?T BE OMMITTED IN PRONOUNCIATION
It is the 'ba' running into the noon or the meem to make 'an-biyaa' pronounced as 'ambiyaa,'
Bro, this is total non sense, Anbia can?t be pronounced Ambia, this is ridiculous mate because again if heard in such way it makes no sense because the word does not exist in Arabic
anbaa' as amba',
As above
sababun batilun being pronounced as sababum-baatilun,
LOL mate, thanks for the laugh, if I hear someone saying this ?sababum-baatilun?, I will tell him/her ?WTF?, if they insist then I will tell them to ?speak Arabic or bugger off idiots?
or qunbilah as qumbilah(this is bomb in Arabic.)
Again the word Qumbilah, does not exist in Arabic, but if I hear in such way I would respond do you mean ?Qunbilah??
Well possibly you hear Qumbliha from the kids who just started to talk or the farmers who don?t know how to read or write their own Arabic language (there are plenty BTW), or someone with half his/her body paralysed, but I agree with that one that you can hear Qunbilah as Qumbilah, but if it happens then it means one thig only ?Qunbilah? and the one who said just having a problem
Speaking of qumbilah this is going to blow your minds.
Damn did you just started the Qunbilah Timer?
Tajweez was an intricate part of the the Old Arabic language and used all the time.
Sorry?, where you got the above from?
Tajweed is noting but properly pronouncing the words of any thing you read in Arabic, it was used mostely with the Quran as a matter of respect to Allah words that it should be read with care not like reading the newspaper, however to work as a news reader in Arabic TV YOU MUST HAVE EXCLEENT TAJWEED SKILLS, so Tajweed in not explicit to the Quran.
The old Arabs understood mirabbihim as min-rabbihim and vice versa.
That was total BS bro, sorry
Firstly the old Arabs were far better in the Lugha Arabi Fusha than we are now, in fact this is how they spoke in their daily life ?USING THE LUGHA ARABIA FUSHA? therefore if mirabbihim won?t make any sense to Arabs who are living now then there is no question that it wouldn?t make any sense for the more solid in the Lugha the old Arabs
In fact to use Tajweed with ?min-rabbihim? IT HAS TO BE PRONOUNCED ?min-rabbihim?, if it is pronounced mirabbihim then sorry this is not Tajweed rather utter BS
All languages have these kind of dual functions for pronunciations.
Sorry, do you mean can pronounce words in English different by using totally different letters to what it suppose to be?
In English we say 'piddy' and 'pity' and we understand them both.
Not sure what are you doing bro, are you comparing street/public/common language with what it suppose to be?
Fine it is just the flawed humans who pronounce words differently, some even do it deliberately trying to be different, but the fact of the matter stays, if you write piddy in a sentence I guess many will struggle to know what the hell was that
"Most" of us say the second to clarify the first.
Well, I?m not in those ?most? then, it seems according to you that I?m with the minority, however it still feels good to be with those minority who pronounce words with excellent Tajweed
And we have tons of other words that we do this to. Spanish is the same and all languages are the same with this. Spelling it 'pity' is just a standard way of spelling this word, and if you go to old scripts that are not standardized or when people write in colloquial speech you find things written the way they sound instead of standardized ways to spell them.
Bro, let?s not care about English, French Spanish or any other language but Arabic because it is the language of the Quran which you are disputing, therefore using other words from other language to prove you point is the weakest link because languages are not the same really, not even close to each other
The Arabic script was not standardized until recently, that is in the 1900's.
Which Arabic script exactly?
And that is why you can find alot of different spellings from different Quranic scripts
Total non sense and lauaghable comment because the Quran we have in hand is the Quran that existed 1400 years ago when Uthman compiled it not a Quran that was compiled in 1900?s, that was total rubbish bro.
as well as non-Quranic scripts,
I really careless about the non Quranic scripts, we are discussing the Quranic script bro
but they still all follow the rules of the way the Old Arabs pronounced things.
now you made it rules, that was funny bro, and you made the old Arabs the makers of those rules in your fantasy world of ?the world languages?
again the old Arabs can?t pronounce ?min-rabbihim? as ?mirabbihim?, they will sound idiots indeed, however how can you prove this to us that an old Arab who lived some 1400 years ago used to say mirabbihim instead of min-rabbihim, that is one hell of a task to prove bro
Do you guys remember the basit debate on Submission.org (they couldn't figure out why it was spelled with a sawd instead of a seen).
Oh come on, the ?sad? and ?seen? sound the same but ?min-rabbihim? as ?mirabbihim, so I may accept that the sad and seen dilemma was a typo when the Quran was put down, all in all the word with a sad or a seen will sound the exact same2
Tajweez indicates that it be pronounced like sawd because of the taw acting on it, so it being written like this was only the written manifestation of this tajweez.
Well I accept that the Sad is pronounced a bit heavily than the Seen so if I hear it from someone with excellent Tajweed I?m sure any fluent Arab speaker will recognise that it must be a Sad
Look at the word izdilaaf and izdihaar they are really iz-tilaaf and iz-tihaar, but the dal has an effect on the 't' according to tajweez and therefore you get the first pronunciations.
Are these words from the Quran or what bro? if yes the please repost them for me in Arabic an a refrence to the verses, if not quran words then at elast put them in Arabic so I can make sense of it, honestly I could not figure out what are these Arabic words you wrote in English letters
This is the same with the sun letters. You say ashamsu instead of al-shamsi, but if you say both its understood. That is all part of the the grander concept of tajweez.
Now I got you cornered Mate, there is nothing in Arabic called ?sun letters?, this is utter BS, what is there is called ?Al Lam Al Shamsia? ?The Sum Lam?, and ?Al Lam Al Qamariah? ?The Moon Lam?, and as you can see both relate to one letter ?Lam?, not ?letters? as you are conjecturing that is for a starter, now what you also failed to mention is the ?Al Lam Qamariah? ?The Moon Lam?, let me explain botn to you and also tell you why this rule exist
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Arabic words with ?Al?, ?Al The Murafah?, i.e. ?The?, can be hard to pronounce so a rule has been created based on pronunciation ease, they divided the words into two categories when ?Al? is added to them
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The first category will follow the pronunciation of the Arabic word ?Al Qamar?, i.e. ?The Moon?, the Lam in the ?Al? is called ?Lam Qamariah?, i.e. the Lam MUST BE PRNOUNCED and can?t be omitted when saying these words with Lam Qamariah
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The second category will follow the pronunciation of the Arabic word ?Al Shams?, i.e. ?The Sun?, the Lam in the ?Al? is called ?Lam Shamsiah?, i.e. the Lam MAY NOT BE PRNOUNCED and can be omitted when saying these words with Lam Shamsiah, this is an option though that is solely based on pronunciation and not grammar for example if I hear the two words ?A Shams? or ?Al Shams?, I will recognise both as ?The sun?, however the one who will say it as ?Al Shams? will be the who lacks Tajweed
This Lam Shamsia and Qamaraia thingy is only made to make pronunciation of words with ?Al? easier, i.e. if the first letter in the word is a bit heavy like the ?Sheen? for example than it is more proper to omit the Lam in pronunciation to make it easier HOWEVER if the words are written down then the both LAM Shamsiah/Qamariah must be written down and can?t be omitted or it will be fatal mistake in the writings
Now the above has noting to do with the imaginary example you told us about earlier ?min-rabihhim? and ?mirabbihim?
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You find 'al-aikah' in the Quran spelled with a 'hamza' on a 'ya' in the Quran, which is forbidden according to modern standardized texts.
Actually it is not ever forbidden, can you please show me a compelling evidence of your claim and I mean compelling please, but what I can say that the hamza is one of the most confusing letters in Arabic, even many write the word Quran differently because of that hamza, so the later Arabic professionals were trying to avoid that confusion in writing, this however can?t cause any confusion in pronunciation of the words with a hamza as a letter, therefore there is nothing forbidding how to put the hamza in words as long as the word sounds the same
Now if Allah put the hamza on a Ya, why you think the modern Arabic is more right than Allah?
Why all these differences?
Well, you only said a couple, so I may ask how you say ?ALL THESE DIFFERENCES??, as well the pronunciation should stay the same, the example of min-rabbihim you brought up is utter non sense because if we pronounce it as mirabihhim then we are saying totally foreign word that does not exist, the only letter ommition in Arabic is the Lam in ?Al? and yet is optional however in writing, the Lam can?t be omitted otherwise it will be a fatal mistake, for example
The word ASHMAS means to have a sun bath and when written, it will be ?Alif Sheen Mim Seen?
The word ?Al Shams? can be optionally pronounced as ?Ashams? by omitting the lam because the ?Sheen? is a heavy letter in pronunciation but if we write it as pronounced, the word will be the same letters as the word above ?Alif Sheen Mim Seen? hence a total confusion will arise
Arabic is a phonetic alphabet so you don't need standardized ways of spelling.
UTTER BS
It is supposed to represent the way that it is said.
THAT IS WHAT EVERY LANGUAGE FOR, what is new exactly?
Which is why when it comes to tajweez you will see different texts differ when it comes to interchangeable things.
Tajweed is only for proper pronunciation and has nothing to do with writing the words
Arabic text in its early stages was a very poor and deficient text.
Well, you may first tell us when was that early stages
Is it 1000 years ago
Is it 2000 years ago
Is it 3000 years ago
Is it 4000 years ago
Is it 5000 years ago
?
?
?
etc.. down to the first day of creationNow I have to say, your statement was flawed from the first place, because when you say this Arabic text in its early stages was a very poor and deficient text. , I say, what is new exactly?
Damn bro, this is what you bloody expect with any language in its early stages, now you need to tell us when was the early stages of the Arabic language, I would like to also know when was the early stages of the Chinese language then after you do that I hope that you explain to me how poor they were, possibly you will find answers in your fantasy world of ?World Languages?
As it developed new things were added, and sometimes spellings and diacritical marks were put there to help the reader understand the origin of the word. This was good so that non-Arabs and even Arabs could guide their recitals of the Quran.
Would that be before Uthman time or after Uthman time?
Shaddahs served the function of two things.
LOL, that was a flawed definition to the Shaddah bro
The Shaddahs serve the function of stressing the same letter under them
If this is complicated
Not really, it was sort of Tom and Jerry argument
remember that the Quranic texts were only for the educated and those were few
really a few, wow how many you reckon?
, even up until recently. The shaddas indicated where a word could be equally pronunced with tajweez or not. Sometimes you find this shaddah and sometimes you don't.
Shaddah is not part of the Tajweed really, the Shaddah belongs to something called Tashkil, and to be a good Arabic reader you need to be fully aware of the Tashkil even if it does not exist, i.e. someone with high Tajweed skills will be able to read the Quran or anything in Arabic without Tashkil at all and will pronounce the words properly.
Some people believe that the Quran was preserved through writing.
Some, or many?
But the Arabic text was such a crappy text in its early days that the Quran couldn't have fully been preserved by writing.
Good, now you need to tell us when was the early days of the crappy Arabic
Is it 1000 years ago
Is it 2000 years ago
Is it 3000 years ago
Is it 4000 years ago
Is it 5000 years ago
?
?
?
etc.. down to the first day of creationIn very early texts you can't even distinguish the ra from the z or the taw from the dhaw or the seen from the sheen. The dots slowly came later,
Now let me ask you, did they come before Uthman or after Uthman? Then you need to provide compelling evidences
which is why you will find them in some early texts, scattered about. And even these texts don't use them efficiently to represent all the differences between pronunciation.
now we need you to show us many of these texts for us to believe you, cheers
It was only later on that all the vowel markings and dots were put in place so that someone who hadn't already memorized the Quran could read from these texts.
Later when exactly? and by whom?
The Quran was preserved mainly through the use of memorizers and schools for memorizers of this book, the texts were a very loose outline so that these readers wouln't go ahead and insert crazy things into the their recitations and then say that that is what they were taught
I agree with that however, that was up to Uthman time, from then the Quran is preserved by writing, but I accept minor differences in very few words because that never changed the meaning nor the context
Even the Quran admits that people tried to distort the Quran.
But did it say they succeeded?
What is your point by that?
However, even up until this day in the same Quran you will find different conventions for writting. Sometimes the shaddah is there to indicate tajweez and sometimes it is not as well as the other convetions for pronouncing all the sounds.
As I said someone with good Tajweed skills doesn?t need the Tashkil at all, why you are mixing the Tashkil with the Tajweed?
Its ridiculous for people to say that the Quran didn't have vowels or that Arabic doesn't have vowels because even if they write just bsmllh they always say bIsmIllAhI and all the vowels are there when you say this Arabic phrase and any other Arabic word. They also have high functional load becaue there is a big diffierence between saying bismillahi and busmalliha. Literacy in Arabic has just traditionally been based off the reader already knowing the language and being a proficient guesser.
I don't know what you are talking about when you try to simulate the Arabic words with English letters, but I agree with you said here Literacy in Arabic has just traditionally been based off the reader already knowing the language and being a proficient guesser, however the role of the writer s is far more important than the reader as far as I'm concerned, so if the writer did a bad job the reader will do a bad job.
Uthman's text and the official texts from where we get our Quran today was the finalization and fixation of an outline that included all recitals up until that time, obviously from well-known Quranic memorizers who had formed in that day a special class of people like the griots of West Africa, but more organized as in the early days of Islam schools were formed and these people were higly trained and constantly compared their recitals to each others and to their teachers. This is not rumor, like the hadeeth. The early Quranic reciters had their schools their teachers and general texts (though not completely accurate because they lacked dots and vowels) to ensure that their recitations were correct.
Bro while I agree with the above, I?m still puzzled how you can verify the above?, I think you only believe that it was the case as you explained it
Now the early quranic reciters recited it as they heared it from Mohammad, and Mohammad recited it as he heard it from Jebril, and Jebril deliverd it as he recieved it from Allah, now are you suggesting that Allah lacked the dots and vowels?
Mate you argument does not make sense to me
We now have about 7 readings of the Quran now all written with vowels and dots as it was only later on that these vowels and dots came into wide-usage.
Well, I chose to follow the one which is Uthman, but I?m sure the others will be almost the same meaning and contexts, unless they talk about totally something else
There were probably more than just Uthman's text around, despite those Hadeeths that say that he burned all of the other texts of the Quran. Why? Because there are differences between these Qurans in terms of alifs, waws and fas that don't need vowel markings to be distinguished.
The fas and waws don?t need vowel markings to be distinguished, now that is new
Are you saying, we can?t say Fa, Fi, Fu, F and Wa, Wi, Wu, W?
Is that an old days rule or new days rule?, please in either case state when was that became a rule anf by whom
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With all that said lets get back to tajweez. Have you ever noticed that when the Quran is recited the Quran reciters will often say 'mubaaraka' for 'mubaarakan' and that the 'a' is equal to the 'an'
Man, I thought you are building up for the showtime, now it is obvious that it is a lowtime
Well, Mubaraka or Mubarakan are both the same in writing, so what is your point exactly?
There is no such thing that a = an as you are implying, the Tashkil never existed during the Quran revelation, the double fatiha will make the ?a? pronounced as ?an? therefore it must been recited as ?a? during the prophet because the double fatiha nor the single fatiha existed at that time
sound when the word is an adverb?
not realy, what you are saying that we can only use the double tashkil on adverbs?
I think double tashkil can also be used on adjectives and possibly other type of words, I have to find examples for other types but I?m sure about the Adjectives
'Anaa ji'tu maashiyan' and 'anaa ji'tu maashiya' are the same thing.
True
For those who don't know, all this means is 'I came walking/by foot.'
True
This is the difference between 'al-shams' and 'ashamsi' min rabbihi and mirabbihi.
Utter BS because mirabbihi does not make any sense if I hear that way, sounds hebro to me, and you are mixing an imaginary rule with the rule of the Lam Shansiah/Qamariah that only affect pronounciation and is optional but it does not affect writings at all
Have you also noticed that in the Quran they make 'stop' marks, also called 'wasful-waqf' These stop marks are from the oral recitations (The real means by which the Quran has been preserved) and they represent how each school understands a certain passage. It's like a period mark in English. When you talk there are no period marks and you have to pause for a second for someone to understand that your idea has ended and you have begun another one. This is especially need in Arabic which encourages run-on sentences. So they certain schools standardized these stops to dictacte the readers or listeners understanding.
ok
Also in Classical Arabic when the word is not feminine an alif is put there to indicate 'an' or 'a.' In most texts they put the the tanween there but sometimes, in the same text they don't.
Elaboration please
These stops mentioned above depend on the understanding of Islamic schools that dictate to us how to understand the passages of the Quran. Not only are the verse numbers in the Quran an addition to the Quran (for referencing only, not for understanding as is mistakenly thought) the stops are also an addition and these traditional schools have no authority when it comes to how we can logically understand the Quran with our own minds.
Man, you are an activist for sure but I really don?t understand what you campaigning for exactly
Unless we can logically agree with them on our own also.
Well, agreement is always hard to achieve but we can try
If we choose not to stop where they stop that is our right and if that passage makes sense without the stop then we can disagree with this opinion on where the idea begins and ends. These schools even differ with each other on where to stop.
Yeh sure you are an activist, just kiddin bro
So where is the groundbreaking Quranic finding?
Yeh please, I beg you bro , that is what I was asking for 10 pages and two hours earlier so far, now I?m excited, let?s get into it bro and waste no more time
Look at 2126 in the Arabic under the word 'rabbi'(my lord) and look at 240 and 41 at the words farhabooni (fear me) and fattaqooni(be cautious of me).
(126)
(40)
(41)In both these passages what, in Arabic and even in other places in the Quran, is written as 'ya' here is written as a kasrah. Telling us that the sound 'i' is equivalent to the long sound 'ya' in Classical Arabic and can be written either way.
Total ignorance, Utter BS and clear cut case of Tom and Jerry cartoon
Both verbs in 240-41 ?Irhabun? and ?Itaqun? should be with a Ya at the end, this Ya is acalled ?Harf Al Illh? and because the verbs are in order fomat then they have to be always Mabni, and if there is ?Harf Al Illh? at the end of the order verb then it has to be ?Mabni Ala Hazf Harf Al Illh?, I,e, ?the Ya must be omitted?
Now if you cared to search for all the concurrences of the word ?Itaqun? you will see that the Ya was never there, the word appeard 5 times in the following verses
241, 2197, 162, 2352 and 3916
same with the word ?Irhabun?, appeared only twice in the Quran as such
240 and 1651
Bro your ignorance is overwhelming, in fact all order verbs must be mabniah on ommiting the Ya for example the order to worship Allah ?Ibudon? was also ordered 3 times and in all three times the Ya is omitted
2125, 2192 and 2956
The above was for Order verbs but even present verbs, it may be mabniah on omitting Harf Al Illh, have a look at these verses
(56)
(57)Can you see the last word on each verse, it is clearly a present verb and yet the Ya at the end that should be referring to Allah is omitted because this is how it should be
With all this knowledge lets go to
Well, I have to say, the knowledge you provided is shaky, doubtful, unfounded, many are false and has no merit whatsoever, it only serve the purpose of confusing your Muslims brother and sisters and now I can say honestly, peacfully and comfortablly that your discovery is nothing but a blunder
396, 2185 and 4824
The phrases under scrutiny are
shahru-ramadaana
bibatni makkata
lalladhee bibakkataNot again bro and I don't think you will add any founded conclusion based on the above unfounded claims by you.
Understanding that Arabic is based on how something is said,
Damn, Arabic is not unique here, all languages are the same, bloody hell
understanding the rules of tajweez
It is called Tajweed and it all depends on the Tashkil, many fluent Arab speakers don't need the Tashkil to pronounce the words properly
and understanding that the kasrah and the ya for 'first person 'me' ' can be teh same,
Utter BS
can help us look at these phrases differently without breaking Classical Arabic rules or having to claim that the grammarians are wrong.
Haha you gonna get yourself cornered again, let?s see
So with the following I detract the opinon that I have held for over a year here that the grammarians forgot an important aspect of grammar. It was never the grammarians that kept us from being able to discover it, it was the common, traditional understanding of these verses, the standardization of Arabic spelling and its affect on the way we view texts that were before this standardization. (For those of us who have scrutinized the Arabic)
LOL, man that was laughable after exposing your ignorance regarding the verbs and omitting Harf Al Illh when they are order verbs and sometimes for present verbs
According to tajweez and the the phenomeon of idghaam (assimilation), Shahru-ramadaana can equal shahrun + ramadaanan
ABSOLUTE BS because if this is the case then the two words MUST BE AT THE VERY END OF THE SENTENCE for Ramadaanun to be adjective to Sharun
bro, I?m sorry, have a look at where the two words appeared and you will see that they are at the start of the sentence NOT at the very end
I?m really wasting my time with you Anwar however I?m doing it now for brother warner really, but you have my respect after we settled down our differences in communication
This validates the understanding of 'a month during a time of constant or intense heat' And a shaddah could be inserted over the the ra to show this understanding.
What a laugh that was, the double Tashkil has nothing to do with the shadda, you are very confused bro
Double Dummah pronounced ?un? and must be at the end of the word over the last letter
Double Kasrah pronounced ?in? and must be at the end of the word under the last letter
Double Fatiha pronounced ?an? and must be at the end of the word over the last letter
The Shaddah means ?stressing the letter under it? can be put on any letter
Mate this is ridiculous indeed
The traditional understanding is also still valid, although it may not be more logical, and is certainly not more universal.
BS because the traditional understanding is the only logical one to fit so far
bi-batni makkata following the same rule shown above can equal bi + batnin + makkatan This validates the claim of makkah being used here mainly to indicate destruction, being more liek 'Being in deep or being surrounded(in the middle), by desctruction' The traditional understanding however is also still valid, and its logic depends on whether one would like to accept the histories to be found in the hadeeth or not. However, I wouldn't encourage conspiracy theories.
Bro I will leave you with your fantasy world of manipulating the Arabic words the way you want it without any sound knowledge of what the language should be, it seems that you only speak it bro and that does not mean you know it really
lalladhee bibakkata through the rule shown through 2126, and 240-41 can be 'lalladhee + bee + bakkatan' being "The one that is for Me, being cut above the rest!" The previous passage can start its quote at 'sadaqa allahu fa'. . . that is 'God told truth in saying . . .'
Well I have nothing to say any more, you are building an argument on a pile of clear cut ignorance not a soild and well founded logic, there is no logic in what you said whatsoever despite your very long introduction that surely will serve its purpose with many na?ve ones
With all that said, I officially retract my statement or implication of forgotten grammar. Understanding grammar, tawjeez, that spelling wasn't standardized in Arabic texts until the past 100 years, and that the Quran doesn't fall into the category of books that use conventional standardized spelling, which can be seen from one Quranic text to another, gives support to the ideas that Mecca was never made a place of importance in the Quran, and where the word is mentioned it has other meaning. It also give support to the idea that bakkah is not the other name for Mecca and has meaning in Arabic that grammatically fits towards understanding it as 'a cut above the rest' or 'in distinction' and that Ramadan has alternative Arabic meaning and can grammatically mean 'season of constant or intense heat'. All these understandings can all be justified using valid grammatical principles and are therefore sound understandings.
Ok
As for Layth, Ahmed Baghat and Ayman I hate to sound to critical but I have to say 'Shame on you.' You guys, if you went to religious schools, were more exposed to this and you chose to reject Cl. Arabic grammar altogether, putting yourself on shaky ground knowledge-wise, rather than challenge what they taught you with better scholarship. And showing them that they have not been fully following the scholarship that they claim to be lords over.
Godbless again,
AnwarI guess it is now proper for me to tell you ?Shame on you Anwar?
Take care mate
Edited Fixed a few typos (well many typos I should say, sorry, i don't use the spell check at all, it wastes my time)
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Peace Anwar and all
As I can agree with you that - in theory- you can re-write the first phrase according to idghaam (assimilation), I find that this will be at the expense of basic grammar
shahru ramadana the two letters in red are actually inflections (damma and fat7a) and do not show in the Arabic script as letters. The damma is the "default" vocalization for nouns (and adjectives). These two words are in a possessive construction (mudaaf and mudaaf elayhi) where the second word (here ramadan) ends with i (kasra). The pattern of "ramadan" is one of what we call (diptode takes only two of the three vocalizations , namely the damma and the fat7a. The fat7a serves for the kasra as well). Hence Shahru ramadana instead of shahru ramadani.
The problem is not re-introducing idgham or not, the problem is does the grammar permit?
Now, re-grouping the two words in order to make them noun and adjective (instead of idafa construction)will change the grammar and they have to be "shahrun ramadanu). Again, instead of "ramadanun" (because this is another characteristics of diptodes no nunnation ن. But that is not what we have in the Qur'aan. So, the idghaam can't work unless you have a reason to change the vocalization of "ramadana" and make it "ramadanu".
Again, for grammatical rules, "makkatan" should be "makkatin", because it is the second noun in an idaafa construction; and "bakkatan" should be "bakkatin" because it is preceeded by a preposition. In addition, idgham in them does not work, as explained by Ahmed Bahgat.
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God bless,
I?m really wasting my time with you Anwar however I?m doing it now for brother warner really, but you have my respect after we settled down our differences in communication
Ahmed this shows that despite you saying that you forgave me you still harbor hate in your heart. As many times as you used the phrase utter BS and said that what I was saying was based on pure arrogance you either don't know how to have a decent conversation or you are the same aggressive person that I saw that you were from the beginning. So I will address the issues that you put forth in what I have said to Samia, but please do email warner about what you think about what I have said, and have him relate it to me. I honestly can't bare to read your insulting language and not get enraged and want to respond back to you with pure insults. So, don't waste your time please. PLEASE DON'T waste your time. I accept what you have said but i will never accept your nasty-ass attitude.
Dear Samia,
As for your comment, what I am proposing is that those aren't idaafah constructions at all. Rather they can be validly read as idghaam. batni makkata read just by staying a little longer on the 'meem', a practice which is done in Quranic recitation widely with letters that don't even take shaddas, as it is, can render a different understanding.
Meaning that instead of reading 'batnimakkata' you would read batnim-makkata' which equals 'batnin makkatan/makkata'. The makkata here is an adverb and not part of an idaafah construction. Not doubling the meem was a certain interpretation of the Quran and not writing it was a manifesation of that understanding. I understand what an idaafah construction is and I appreciate your explanation. As for the use of fathah and fathatain, they are interchangeable in adverbs. The word could have equally been makkatan, just as makkata, this helps us understand that this word is not necessarily a proper noun. In the development of Arabic script they developed a way to distinguish male adverbs when reading with the alif, but they never developed a way to distinguish the female adverb when reading. If you see 'heya jaa'at maashiyatan, or maashiyata' you will see no indicater that this is to be an adverb if there are no vowels, where as if it is huwa jaa'a maashiyan or maashiya' you will see a blatant alif. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. Additionally shaddas put over sun letters and meddas put over alifs are not always signs to lengthen but signs that you need to employ the use of idghaam for good pronunication. You don't really double these letters. ibnul-ni'mati has a maddah over the al, in al-ni'mati but you don't lengthen this sound like you usually do when you see a meddah over an alif. This is also with Allah in bismillaah. So putting the shaddah there in cases where they don't indicate different words from the same letters without shaddah are only used to give clues for id-ghaam. Furthermoer look at 'bismi' with the alif. Here you have a clear cut case of assimilation affecting writing and you can equally right it bi-ismi with the alif. This is what I am saying that these cases are just like bism, that there are other obvious and more accepted examples of this in the Quran, and that the cases that I presented above can be included in this, and are the preferable meanings in my opinion.
Godbless,
AnwarAs for the case of Mabniah, this seems logical but it does not answer the case of yaa rabbi written with just a kasrah. In 2150 (here is a command not in mabniyah) and it is the same as 544, 2186(does mabniyah also count for past tense), 5117 (which is mentioned in other places in the Quran) would stipulate mabniyaa as well as it says 'A'bidoo allahA rabbee wa rabbAkum' But the 'yaa' is present here. Why? 231 'anba'oonee' is with a ya there not a kasrah, 2152 (Adhkuroonee), 2260 Areenee are with the ya also showing that this is not mabniyyah here this is just a choice of how to write the same thing. Mirrabbihi is a form of tajweez and even though most modern Arabs may not use it Old-Arabs did. Classical Arabic has hardly survived as widely known language, let alone these rules of pronunciation which only prevail when it comes to Quranic recitation. Remember ambiyaa' and qumbilah, this is the same thing.
Godbless,
Anwar -
God bless,
Im really wasting my time with you Anwar however Im doing it now for brother warner really, but you have my respect after we settled down our differences in communication
Ahmed this shows that despite you saying that you forgave me you still harbor hate in your heart.
Peace bro
this is utter BS, LOL, come on man we are not in kidergarten here, don't be that senstive, I actually do that with thise I try to get closer to
As many times as you used the phrase utter BS
Please bro, use it with me when you think I'm saying utter BS, it will be sweat with me
and said that what I was saying was based on pure arrogance you either don't know how to have a decent conversation or you are the same aggressive person that I saw that you were from the beginning.
Fine Anwar, if this is what you want to conclude, I can't change you though, I donlt know you nor you know me
So I will address the issues that you put forth in what I have said to Samia, but please do email warner about what you think about what I have said, and have him relate it to me.
oh come on, we are not goping to use messnegers between us, how about pegions?
I honestly can't bare to read your insulting language and not get enraged and want to respond back to you with pure insults.
so if I say what you say is utter BS, you consider this a pure insult?
so if I tell someone for you example you son of whatever? what that would be more than a pure insult?
So, don't waste your time please.
Well, if that offended you, then I'm sorry, bexause truely bro I soent about 4 hours responding to you comment and had a liot to do and I told you my opinion honestely and peacfully, donlt be that senstive regaring the word utter BS but if it intimidate you, I'm happy not to use it with you again, I will update Profiler 2006 and that is enough to make you aware not to say it to you again
PLEASE DON'T waste your time.
no bro, please respond to my reply and take your time
I accept what you have said but i will never accept your nasty-ass attitude.
well, you have been nasty with me and I accepted your apology, now if you think I was nasty to you, then I'm sorry, would you accept my apology?
Salam
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Peace Anwar
The makkata here is an adverb
Now I understand your theory about idghaam after you explained them as adverbs, and I see that they can be qualified for idghaam. Sorry as I did not think of them as adverbs because you did not explain it that way in your original message (or maybe I did not pay attention). But what are the verbs that each of these adverbs qualify?
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Dear Samia,
The best word that I could pick for this was adverb. If you look at it in English and use adverb these adverbs would be modifying the verb 'to be', which as you know in Arabic is most times understood. So you should look at it more like nasbul-haalati which I don't exactly know how to translate into English. It is modifying the condition of the month (shahru-ramadaana), the house (bakkata) and the condition of those in deep, or in a surrounding situation (bi batnim-makkata).
As for the bi in bibakkata if you checked out the quotes that I referred to addressing the case of mabniyah that Ahmed mentioned you can see that using the kasrah for the alif is not a convention for mabniyah and must be something the grammarians used to explain this convention away, which they really didn't understand, if that is the contention of SOME grammarians. The cases that contradict this show that my conclusion that this is a writting convention is more correct that saying that this is a case for mabniyah, and that I can validly look at this b-kasrah as b-ya (in/for Me)
Ahmed,
You can refer to the post that I addressed to samia for those examples if you haven't already checked them out.
Godbless,
AnwarIt is also honestly my contention that the Arabic script should be reworked, but we can talk about that later.
P.S.
Ahmed, thinking about our recent spout I started thinking. And you know what comes around goes around. . . I'm not saying this to threaten you but I'm saying that this came back around on me.
I remember having a conversation with my Fiancee's cousin and telling him that what he had said was 'porqueria' which in spanish is like saying 'bs', i.e. bull-sh*t or a load of crap. And I remember not meaning it in a disrespectful way, because I thought that him and I were close enough for me to be able to say something like that to him, and for him to know that I wasn't trying to invalidate his points completely, his thoughts or thought process. I was just saying that I disagreed with what he was saying at that moment.
My fiancee thought that it was disrespectful for me to say that and I had to explain what I meant to him, and her. In reality, I had assumed too much about his ability to know how I thought. That's something that takes years. And I've learned to take into consideration that for a person to have that type of insight into my personality takes years of a developing friendship and even then sometimes its misunderstood. So unless I'm just kidding around and the person I'm talking to knows that I'm not being serious, that is the only time that I will talk like that, but with people that I haven't met a day in my life and on a forum where we are trying to resolve serious issues, inconsistencies and trying to bring to light things that others may not have realized before, I try to refrain from those type of half-play, half-harsh jokes or comments.
We all mess up but as I said I try to refrain from that. I only get nasty like that when I think a person is either being hard-headed on purpose and hard-headed and nasty at that. I actually usually have patience and forgiveness for the slow (its not their fault) but I don't have patience for the slow & indignant, and even less for the slow, indignant AND assumptious.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar
I am trying to understand, but sometimes I am lost. If the missing verb is (to be), it has to be (was) so that the "khabar" will be "mansuub". Is this example correct
shahrun (was) ramadana?That would be quite interesting!
Hi
Yes the example is correct and the verb to be can also be in present form, i,e, Sharun is Ramdana, however the verb to be "past or present" can not be ommitted, i think there is a verse that runs on the same way as your example but I have to find it inshaallah you will see in it that the verb to be can't be ommitted, and if your exmaple was stated n the Quran the sentene "sharun kana ramdana" must come at the end of the sentence otherwise it will be flawed and won't make any sense, try it in the verse using your example and you will recognise what I mean
Salam
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I actually went to bed then the verse hit me so i turned on my laptop to post it, it is similar to Samia example and we will see that the verb to be "Kana" can't be ommitted,
they perform the vow and fear a day whereof the evil is wide-spreading,
(7)
See how it came at the end of the verse and the "Kana" can't be ommitted, this should demolish "Sharun Ramdanun" silly claim that it means the scorchng full moon
Good night all
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Dear Samia,
Take it like this
Fa&alan anaa amaamuka
which means
biseeghatin fa&leeyin anaa amaamuka
Fa&l is a noun here and not an adjective and it is describing the way that I am in front of you (in a real way).
This is the same way that Ramadaana works. Sharun ramadaanan equals 'A month, in/as it concerns constant/intense heat'
Anaa hunaa li-sayyaratin uswatan bihi I am here for a car, just as he is.
In both of the above cases Kaana is not needed. The verb to be is understood, but uswatan and fa&lan describe the context in which someone 'is' in any particular situation, and they are both using knowns. In the same way you could say 'Isti&daadan huwa fee nasfil-mustawaa.' Here isti'daadan is modifying the understood verb to be. So in shah-run, ramadaanAN lalladhee . . . ' RamaadanAN is explaining in what context this month fell in but it is not explaining the month itself, which would make it an adjective and therefore it would have to be 'ramadaanun'.
I hope you see where I'm coming from?
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar
Please be aware that verbs CAN'T be ommitted in the Arabic langugaes, only names or their Damirs refering to these names
Cheers
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Peace Ahmed,
I know you understand that the verb to be is a very special case. I'm not talking about all verbs. I'm talking about the verb to be. It can be ommitted where in English it is never admitted, except in certain English dialects. And like in Arabic it is only omitted in the present tense, in very clear cut connections like 'that dog (is) smart.'
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace brother Anwar
Mate as far as I know words and verbs can't be ommitted, only damirs can
if you ommitt a verb then the grammar will be broken
I understand what you mean when we say The dog (is) smart, in arabic we will say Kalbun Zakyun, where it will contitute a "Muptdaa and Khabar" or a noun and an adjective, if you add the verb to be then we will have a totally different structure "Al Kalb Yakoon Zakia", it makes no sense bro gramaticlly
Take care
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Peace Anwar
but when we deal with senstences for Irab we have to state the ommited words, in the case of "Kalbun Zakiu" in Irab though we will not mention the vern to be as ommitted at all, you may consider it virtually ommitted in the case of present to be because it makes no sense as past tense, but we don't mention this in Irab
Cheers
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So if we both agree that the verb 'to be' can be ommitted, then why are you disagreeing with me? Or are you? It seems like you want to emphasize that verbs can't be omitted in Arabic, and I agree with that. But there is one special case which is the verb 'to be.' The verb 'to be' can be omitted despite the fact that there is an adverb to modify it like in the sentences I gave to Samia. So are we in agreement or what? And why does it seem like you are disagreeing with me if we both agree on the verb 'to be;' and that this verb (and only this verb from what I know) can be ommitted?
Godbless,
Anwar -
So if we both agree that the verb 'to be' can be ommitted, then why are you disagreeing with me? Or are you? It seems like you want to emphasize that verbs can't be omitted in Arabic, and I agree with that. But there is one special case which is the verb 'to be.' The verb 'to be' can be omitted despite the fact that there is an adverb to modify it like in the sentences I gave to Samia. So are we in agreement or what? And why does it seem like you are disagreeing with me if we both agree on the verb 'to be;' and that this verb (and only this verb from what I know) can be ommitted?
Godbless,
AnwarPeace bro
the issue is far more complicated than this bro and to be honest I agree that a present to be can be ommitted but this is just virtually known not a common rule in grammar that suggest that
also I discovered a mistake that I have done, in the order verbs you mentioned "Itaqun" and "Irahabun" and the one I brough in "Ibidun", i said that the Ya must be ommitted because Order verb with "Harf Al Illah" must be mabbiah ala hazf harf al illah", however I checked the grammar books I had and I was wrong, because the Ya that suppose to be at the end is "Ya Al Mukhtaba", i.e. "Ya of the speech", so all order verbs must be Mabniah ala hazf Ya Al Mukhatabah
now I hope you don't hold this against me as you did before, and as you can see that I always correct myself if others failed to do as such, i.e. I corner myself
but as I said before I was good in arabic up to about 19 years old then from there all my study was in engnieering and not the languages and that is 22 years mate so my memory my fail me that is why I bought those 3 grammar books, one of them is actually charts only to explain how the grammar workd with the Arabic words, I can photo copy it and send it to you if you wish, it is like a referenece
Salam