GROUNDBREAKING QURANIC FINDING!!!
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Peace Anwar and all
As I can agree with you that - in theory- you can re-write the first phrase according to idghaam (assimilation), I find that this will be at the expense of basic grammar
shahru ramadana the two letters in red are actually inflections (damma and fat7a) and do not show in the Arabic script as letters. The damma is the "default" vocalization for nouns (and adjectives). These two words are in a possessive construction (mudaaf and mudaaf elayhi) where the second word (here ramadan) ends with i (kasra). The pattern of "ramadan" is one of what we call (diptode takes only two of the three vocalizations , namely the damma and the fat7a. The fat7a serves for the kasra as well). Hence Shahru ramadana instead of shahru ramadani.
The problem is not re-introducing idgham or not, the problem is does the grammar permit?
Now, re-grouping the two words in order to make them noun and adjective (instead of idafa construction)will change the grammar and they have to be "shahrun ramadanu). Again, instead of "ramadanun" (because this is another characteristics of diptodes no nunnation ن. But that is not what we have in the Qur'aan. So, the idghaam can't work unless you have a reason to change the vocalization of "ramadana" and make it "ramadanu".
Again, for grammatical rules, "makkatan" should be "makkatin", because it is the second noun in an idaafa construction; and "bakkatan" should be "bakkatin" because it is preceeded by a preposition. In addition, idgham in them does not work, as explained by Ahmed Bahgat.
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God bless,
I?m really wasting my time with you Anwar however I?m doing it now for brother warner really, but you have my respect after we settled down our differences in communication
Ahmed this shows that despite you saying that you forgave me you still harbor hate in your heart. As many times as you used the phrase utter BS and said that what I was saying was based on pure arrogance you either don't know how to have a decent conversation or you are the same aggressive person that I saw that you were from the beginning. So I will address the issues that you put forth in what I have said to Samia, but please do email warner about what you think about what I have said, and have him relate it to me. I honestly can't bare to read your insulting language and not get enraged and want to respond back to you with pure insults. So, don't waste your time please. PLEASE DON'T waste your time. I accept what you have said but i will never accept your nasty-ass attitude.
Dear Samia,
As for your comment, what I am proposing is that those aren't idaafah constructions at all. Rather they can be validly read as idghaam. batni makkata read just by staying a little longer on the 'meem', a practice which is done in Quranic recitation widely with letters that don't even take shaddas, as it is, can render a different understanding.
Meaning that instead of reading 'batnimakkata' you would read batnim-makkata' which equals 'batnin makkatan/makkata'. The makkata here is an adverb and not part of an idaafah construction. Not doubling the meem was a certain interpretation of the Quran and not writing it was a manifesation of that understanding. I understand what an idaafah construction is and I appreciate your explanation. As for the use of fathah and fathatain, they are interchangeable in adverbs. The word could have equally been makkatan, just as makkata, this helps us understand that this word is not necessarily a proper noun. In the development of Arabic script they developed a way to distinguish male adverbs when reading with the alif, but they never developed a way to distinguish the female adverb when reading. If you see 'heya jaa'at maashiyatan, or maashiyata' you will see no indicater that this is to be an adverb if there are no vowels, where as if it is huwa jaa'a maashiyan or maashiya' you will see a blatant alif. I hope you understand where I'm coming from. Additionally shaddas put over sun letters and meddas put over alifs are not always signs to lengthen but signs that you need to employ the use of idghaam for good pronunication. You don't really double these letters. ibnul-ni'mati has a maddah over the al, in al-ni'mati but you don't lengthen this sound like you usually do when you see a meddah over an alif. This is also with Allah in bismillaah. So putting the shaddah there in cases where they don't indicate different words from the same letters without shaddah are only used to give clues for id-ghaam. Furthermoer look at 'bismi' with the alif. Here you have a clear cut case of assimilation affecting writing and you can equally right it bi-ismi with the alif. This is what I am saying that these cases are just like bism, that there are other obvious and more accepted examples of this in the Quran, and that the cases that I presented above can be included in this, and are the preferable meanings in my opinion.
Godbless,
AnwarAs for the case of Mabniah, this seems logical but it does not answer the case of yaa rabbi written with just a kasrah. In 2150 (here is a command not in mabniyah) and it is the same as 544, 2186(does mabniyah also count for past tense), 5117 (which is mentioned in other places in the Quran) would stipulate mabniyaa as well as it says 'A'bidoo allahA rabbee wa rabbAkum' But the 'yaa' is present here. Why? 231 'anba'oonee' is with a ya there not a kasrah, 2152 (Adhkuroonee), 2260 Areenee are with the ya also showing that this is not mabniyyah here this is just a choice of how to write the same thing. Mirrabbihi is a form of tajweez and even though most modern Arabs may not use it Old-Arabs did. Classical Arabic has hardly survived as widely known language, let alone these rules of pronunciation which only prevail when it comes to Quranic recitation. Remember ambiyaa' and qumbilah, this is the same thing.
Godbless,
Anwar -
God bless,
Im really wasting my time with you Anwar however Im doing it now for brother warner really, but you have my respect after we settled down our differences in communication
Ahmed this shows that despite you saying that you forgave me you still harbor hate in your heart.
Peace bro
this is utter BS, LOL, come on man we are not in kidergarten here, don't be that senstive, I actually do that with thise I try to get closer to
As many times as you used the phrase utter BS
Please bro, use it with me when you think I'm saying utter BS, it will be sweat with me
and said that what I was saying was based on pure arrogance you either don't know how to have a decent conversation or you are the same aggressive person that I saw that you were from the beginning.
Fine Anwar, if this is what you want to conclude, I can't change you though, I donlt know you nor you know me
So I will address the issues that you put forth in what I have said to Samia, but please do email warner about what you think about what I have said, and have him relate it to me.
oh come on, we are not goping to use messnegers between us, how about pegions?
I honestly can't bare to read your insulting language and not get enraged and want to respond back to you with pure insults.
so if I say what you say is utter BS, you consider this a pure insult?
so if I tell someone for you example you son of whatever? what that would be more than a pure insult?
So, don't waste your time please.
Well, if that offended you, then I'm sorry, bexause truely bro I soent about 4 hours responding to you comment and had a liot to do and I told you my opinion honestely and peacfully, donlt be that senstive regaring the word utter BS but if it intimidate you, I'm happy not to use it with you again, I will update Profiler 2006 and that is enough to make you aware not to say it to you again
PLEASE DON'T waste your time.
no bro, please respond to my reply and take your time
I accept what you have said but i will never accept your nasty-ass attitude.
well, you have been nasty with me and I accepted your apology, now if you think I was nasty to you, then I'm sorry, would you accept my apology?
Salam
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Peace Anwar
The makkata here is an adverb
Now I understand your theory about idghaam after you explained them as adverbs, and I see that they can be qualified for idghaam. Sorry as I did not think of them as adverbs because you did not explain it that way in your original message (or maybe I did not pay attention). But what are the verbs that each of these adverbs qualify?
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Dear Samia,
The best word that I could pick for this was adverb. If you look at it in English and use adverb these adverbs would be modifying the verb 'to be', which as you know in Arabic is most times understood. So you should look at it more like nasbul-haalati which I don't exactly know how to translate into English. It is modifying the condition of the month (shahru-ramadaana), the house (bakkata) and the condition of those in deep, or in a surrounding situation (bi batnim-makkata).
As for the bi in bibakkata if you checked out the quotes that I referred to addressing the case of mabniyah that Ahmed mentioned you can see that using the kasrah for the alif is not a convention for mabniyah and must be something the grammarians used to explain this convention away, which they really didn't understand, if that is the contention of SOME grammarians. The cases that contradict this show that my conclusion that this is a writting convention is more correct that saying that this is a case for mabniyah, and that I can validly look at this b-kasrah as b-ya (in/for Me)
Ahmed,
You can refer to the post that I addressed to samia for those examples if you haven't already checked them out.
Godbless,
AnwarIt is also honestly my contention that the Arabic script should be reworked, but we can talk about that later.
P.S.
Ahmed, thinking about our recent spout I started thinking. And you know what comes around goes around. . . I'm not saying this to threaten you but I'm saying that this came back around on me.
I remember having a conversation with my Fiancee's cousin and telling him that what he had said was 'porqueria' which in spanish is like saying 'bs', i.e. bull-sh*t or a load of crap. And I remember not meaning it in a disrespectful way, because I thought that him and I were close enough for me to be able to say something like that to him, and for him to know that I wasn't trying to invalidate his points completely, his thoughts or thought process. I was just saying that I disagreed with what he was saying at that moment.
My fiancee thought that it was disrespectful for me to say that and I had to explain what I meant to him, and her. In reality, I had assumed too much about his ability to know how I thought. That's something that takes years. And I've learned to take into consideration that for a person to have that type of insight into my personality takes years of a developing friendship and even then sometimes its misunderstood. So unless I'm just kidding around and the person I'm talking to knows that I'm not being serious, that is the only time that I will talk like that, but with people that I haven't met a day in my life and on a forum where we are trying to resolve serious issues, inconsistencies and trying to bring to light things that others may not have realized before, I try to refrain from those type of half-play, half-harsh jokes or comments.
We all mess up but as I said I try to refrain from that. I only get nasty like that when I think a person is either being hard-headed on purpose and hard-headed and nasty at that. I actually usually have patience and forgiveness for the slow (its not their fault) but I don't have patience for the slow & indignant, and even less for the slow, indignant AND assumptious.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar
I am trying to understand, but sometimes I am lost. If the missing verb is (to be), it has to be (was) so that the "khabar" will be "mansuub". Is this example correct
shahrun (was) ramadana?That would be quite interesting!
Hi
Yes the example is correct and the verb to be can also be in present form, i,e, Sharun is Ramdana, however the verb to be "past or present" can not be ommitted, i think there is a verse that runs on the same way as your example but I have to find it inshaallah you will see in it that the verb to be can't be ommitted, and if your exmaple was stated n the Quran the sentene "sharun kana ramdana" must come at the end of the sentence otherwise it will be flawed and won't make any sense, try it in the verse using your example and you will recognise what I mean
Salam
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I actually went to bed then the verse hit me so i turned on my laptop to post it, it is similar to Samia example and we will see that the verb to be "Kana" can't be ommitted,
they perform the vow and fear a day whereof the evil is wide-spreading,
(7)
See how it came at the end of the verse and the "Kana" can't be ommitted, this should demolish "Sharun Ramdanun" silly claim that it means the scorchng full moon
Good night all
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Dear Samia,
Take it like this
Fa&alan anaa amaamuka
which means
biseeghatin fa&leeyin anaa amaamuka
Fa&l is a noun here and not an adjective and it is describing the way that I am in front of you (in a real way).
This is the same way that Ramadaana works. Sharun ramadaanan equals 'A month, in/as it concerns constant/intense heat'
Anaa hunaa li-sayyaratin uswatan bihi I am here for a car, just as he is.
In both of the above cases Kaana is not needed. The verb to be is understood, but uswatan and fa&lan describe the context in which someone 'is' in any particular situation, and they are both using knowns. In the same way you could say 'Isti&daadan huwa fee nasfil-mustawaa.' Here isti'daadan is modifying the understood verb to be. So in shah-run, ramadaanAN lalladhee . . . ' RamaadanAN is explaining in what context this month fell in but it is not explaining the month itself, which would make it an adjective and therefore it would have to be 'ramadaanun'.
I hope you see where I'm coming from?
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar
Please be aware that verbs CAN'T be ommitted in the Arabic langugaes, only names or their Damirs refering to these names
Cheers
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Peace Ahmed,
I know you understand that the verb to be is a very special case. I'm not talking about all verbs. I'm talking about the verb to be. It can be ommitted where in English it is never admitted, except in certain English dialects. And like in Arabic it is only omitted in the present tense, in very clear cut connections like 'that dog (is) smart.'
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace brother Anwar
Mate as far as I know words and verbs can't be ommitted, only damirs can
if you ommitt a verb then the grammar will be broken
I understand what you mean when we say The dog (is) smart, in arabic we will say Kalbun Zakyun, where it will contitute a "Muptdaa and Khabar" or a noun and an adjective, if you add the verb to be then we will have a totally different structure "Al Kalb Yakoon Zakia", it makes no sense bro gramaticlly
Take care
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Peace Anwar
but when we deal with senstences for Irab we have to state the ommited words, in the case of "Kalbun Zakiu" in Irab though we will not mention the vern to be as ommitted at all, you may consider it virtually ommitted in the case of present to be because it makes no sense as past tense, but we don't mention this in Irab
Cheers
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So if we both agree that the verb 'to be' can be ommitted, then why are you disagreeing with me? Or are you? It seems like you want to emphasize that verbs can't be omitted in Arabic, and I agree with that. But there is one special case which is the verb 'to be.' The verb 'to be' can be omitted despite the fact that there is an adverb to modify it like in the sentences I gave to Samia. So are we in agreement or what? And why does it seem like you are disagreeing with me if we both agree on the verb 'to be;' and that this verb (and only this verb from what I know) can be ommitted?
Godbless,
Anwar -
So if we both agree that the verb 'to be' can be ommitted, then why are you disagreeing with me? Or are you? It seems like you want to emphasize that verbs can't be omitted in Arabic, and I agree with that. But there is one special case which is the verb 'to be.' The verb 'to be' can be omitted despite the fact that there is an adverb to modify it like in the sentences I gave to Samia. So are we in agreement or what? And why does it seem like you are disagreeing with me if we both agree on the verb 'to be;' and that this verb (and only this verb from what I know) can be ommitted?
Godbless,
AnwarPeace bro
the issue is far more complicated than this bro and to be honest I agree that a present to be can be ommitted but this is just virtually known not a common rule in grammar that suggest that
also I discovered a mistake that I have done, in the order verbs you mentioned "Itaqun" and "Irahabun" and the one I brough in "Ibidun", i said that the Ya must be ommitted because Order verb with "Harf Al Illah" must be mabbiah ala hazf harf al illah", however I checked the grammar books I had and I was wrong, because the Ya that suppose to be at the end is "Ya Al Mukhtaba", i.e. "Ya of the speech", so all order verbs must be Mabniah ala hazf Ya Al Mukhatabah
now I hope you don't hold this against me as you did before, and as you can see that I always correct myself if others failed to do as such, i.e. I corner myself
but as I said before I was good in arabic up to about 19 years old then from there all my study was in engnieering and not the languages and that is 22 years mate so my memory my fail me that is why I bought those 3 grammar books, one of them is actually charts only to explain how the grammar workd with the Arabic words, I can photo copy it and send it to you if you wish, it is like a referenece
Salam
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Peace,
This still does not solve the fact that not all instances of this have the 'ya' taken away. There are instances where the command is a ya and instances where it is just a kasrah. Go back to the posts I posted for Samia to see these instances.
Secondly, please don't complicate the matter by saying that it is more complicate. This is an Arabic rule and the verb to be is only put in when it is in subjunctive form, conditioan form or for emphasis. It is really not that complicated.
Godbless,
anwar -
Salaam all
so all order verbs must be Mabniah ala hazf Ya Al Mukhatabah
I would like to clarify something here.
The grammar "i3raab" affects the verb, but not the prefixes. The verb is, e.g, ya3buduun, the command form, which is "mabnii 3ala aljazm by ommitting nuun of the group" will be a3buduu . To this verb is added the suffixed pronoun (the object, or maf3uul bihi) which is the ya, which in turn is mabniyya 3alaa alsukuun. Now we have two consucutive sukuuns the yaa and the alif at the end of "a3buduu", so an extra nuun is inserted between them to prevent the coexistance of two jauxtapositioned sukuuns. This nuun is called (the nuun of protection) .
The elimination of the yaa almukhataba is not grammar, but style, common in Arabic.
As for verb to be, the grammar changes according to its presence or absence, as well as the meaning. It is usually there when it is in the past or indicating future
Notice how the case ending of changes with the presence or absence of verb (to be). I suppose that is what I see as a problem with
Since "ramadan" has a final fat7a, and if we are avoiding making this mudaaf and mudaaf elayhi, then there must be . The question is can we drop ? Is it permissible in Arabic? I do not think so. -
Brother Anwar
There is no need to go back and forth, I think Samia responded well that Shahr Ramadan with a missing "Yakun" does not make sense because verb to be can't be dropped otherwise we have a totally different structure of the sentence, she provided a good example with "Al Jaw Jamil" which in Irab is Mubtadaa and Khabar and both Marfuh Bi Al Dummah, if Kana or Yakun is there, then the first two examples we will have new structure, Kana needs an Ism and a Khabar, therefore Al Jaw will be Ism Kana and will stay Marfuh Bi Al Dummah while Jamil can't be Marfuh Bi Al Dummah any more as in the case of "No verb to be", with with verb to be the Khabar must be Mansub Bi Alfatiha and as you can see in the 3 examples, the first 2 "Jamil" have an Alif at the end "Alif Al Madd" because it is Mansub Bi Al Fatiha", the last "Jamil" is Marfuh Bi Al Dammah
Salam