Djenna & Gehenna; explanation
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Peace,
yes of course, please read my article at 19.org
http//19.org/index.php?arnold
When you look at verse 746, it says that there is a veil between the people of Djenna and Jahannam, not a distance. So it is the states of mind in which they are that is different, not the places. For the people who have rejected the guidance, they will be in a state of agony and any knowledge in the next life they recieve will be like eating of the tree of zaquum, a real tree species in Arabia, which have bitter leaves that are filthy. Food and sustance in these verses refer to experience and knowledge. The people of Jahannam want the knowledge and experience of the people of Djenna, but because their Nafs has not attained the right level, they cannot reach Djenna. As they will know now that only the Truth is the real sustance of life.
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I like that one
"will be like eating the tree of Zaqqum"
as if he knows the tree of Zaqqum and how it tastes so it will taste like it
rotfl rotfl rotfl
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Peace AB,
The tree of Zaquum is a real excisting tree in Arabia, it can be found in the Tihamah province. It is a dustcoloured tree having small round leaves without thorns. It has a pungent odor, has knots in its stems and is bitter in taste. The heads of it's leaves are very foul, it bears a kind of intensely bitter and sticking fruit, and even camels are reluctant to eat them. When you eat these fruits, the real tree's fruits in this life, it gives a burning feeling in the belly and one needs a lot of water to quench the thirst although it will not take away the burning sensation. Zaquum also became a metaphor for any deadly food because of this quality.
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Peace AB,
The tree of Zaquum is a real excisting tree in Arabia, it can be found in the Tihamah province. It is a dustcoloured tree having small round leaves without thorns. It has a pungent odor, has knots in its stems and is bitter in taste. The heads of it's leaves are very foul, it bears a kind of intensely bitter and sticking fruit, and even camels are reluctant to eat them. When you eat these fruits, the real tree's fruits in this life, it gives a burning feeling in the belly and one needs a lot of water to quench the thirst although it will not take away the burning sensation. Zaquum also became a metaphor for any deadly food because of this quality.
Salam
and where you got this info from?
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Peace,
All Classic arabic dictionaries mention this, as well Bukhari in his commentary on the Quran. It is also logical that the Quran gives a real tree as an example. If i'm correct the tree can still be found in the Tihama province which is on the West coast of the Arabian peninsula. This region extends from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Bab el Mandeb straits. In the time of the Prophet, this is where the tree grew.
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Peace,
All Classic arabic dictionaries mention this, as well Bukhari in his commentary on the Quran. It is also logical that the Quran gives a real tree as an example. If i'm correct the tree can still be found in the Tihama province which is on the West coast of the Arabian peninsula. This region extends from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Bab el Mandeb straits. In the time of the Prophet, this is where the tree grew.
Well bro
I never heard about what you are alleging neither I found any thing on google, as well I don't take hadith as an evidence
cheers
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Peace,
That you can't find on google doesn't say anything, and that several dictionaries report it as an excisting tree doesn't surprise me at all. If you reject this because it is found in dictionaries and you believe dictionaries are hadith, then you can reject every meaning of arabic you were taught as these all come from hadith, outside sources, also. I am as carefull in rejecting as accepting. But it is indeed interresting to see if the tree still excists in the Tihama province.
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Excuse me bro you came and said the followi g reagrding the Zaqqum tree
Arnold said
1)All Classic arabic dictionaries mention this,
2) as well Bukhari in his commentary on the Quran.
3) It is also logical that the Quran gives a real tree as an example.
4) The tree can still be found in the Tihama province which is on the West coast of the Arabian peninsula.
5) This region extends from the Gulf of Aqaba to the Bab el Mandeb straits.
6)In the time of the Prophet, this is where the tree grew.and despite that I found noting in googlr, who are you kiddin bro?
well if you goole Zaqqum, Zuqqum, Zaqum, or whatever you want to spell it, you will only find the Zuqqum tree mnetioned in the Quran that exist in hell
now for point number 3 abive
- It is also logical that the Quran gives a real tree as an example.
I found it so silly by you, well Allah told in the Quran that the tree comes out from the bottom of the hell not from the bottom of your Tihama province , keep listening to Satan man, you are doing exactly what he wants, good on you
Cheers
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Peace,
AB, that it is not found in Google says nothing and you know that. And the Arabic dictionaries do mention this clearly, Lane's Lexicon, Tay's, Omar's dictionary. i'm as carefull to reject or accept. I don't see the crime and blasphemy really in believing a real tree is used as a metaphor in the Quran. As for your last point you give, it doesn't exclude at all if the tree doesn't excist in this world or not. As always you grab your 'you listen to satan and i don't' authority just because it devaides from your common sense or view, and in this case again it is a huge exgerration to use it with this. People who like to wave flags don't deserve one. This has backfired on you many times before brother. I hope in time you will see this.
Peace brother
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Salaams arnold,
sorry Br. but your whole argument is screwed up.
there are two sets of verses which your confusing into one .
There are worldly verses , and there are verses talking about the hereafter and you have confused the issue by telling everyone they are all talking about the happenings in this the world.
You do need to reconsider the verses and see what i mean or we could talk about it if you like - after i come back from a small trip.
Gods Blessings.
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Peace,
So much talk on wether hell is physical or state of mind. And these are the only options circulating here. Why?
Becouse our brain is so small! Our brain cannot grasp something like hell or heaven.
That why it is alegorical, like fruits and rivers and things and fire and hot water... things that pleases us and hurt us in this world.If heaven is nothing more then a garden with fruits and rivers than its not much worth fighting for, couse we have a lot of that here on earth.
Thats why there is no possible way to say to anyone You are wrong about hell! Even if he claims that hell is an ICE CREAM.I think we should settle down this time and say it, simple and pure WE DON"T KNOW !!
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Salaams arnold,
sorry Br. but your whole argument is screwed up.
there are two sets of verses which your confusing into one .
There are worldly verses , and there are verses talking about the hereafter and you have confused the issue by telling everyone they are all talking about the happenings in this the world.
You do need to reconsider the verses and see what i mean or we could talk about it if you like - after i come back from a small trip.
Gods Blessings.
Peace,
Some verses can be applied to this life and the next. But we can discuss that when you want.
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Salaams arnold,
sorry Br. but your whole argument is screwed up.
there are two sets of verses which your confusing into one .
There are worldly verses , and there are verses talking about the hereafter and you have confused the issue by telling everyone they are all talking about the happenings in this the world.
You do need to reconsider the verses and see what i mean or we could talk about it if you like - after i come back from a small trip.
Gods Blessings.
Peace,
Some verses can be applied to this life and the next. But we can discuss that when you want.
Salaams Br,
lets start then.
God already explains that the descriptions of Gehenna and Djenna are metaphors, allegories. (see 1335 and 4715)
The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised!- beneath it flow rivers perpetual is the enjoyment thereof and the shade therein such is the end of the Righteous; and the end of Unbelievers in the Fire.
They are parables so your little mind (and my little mind too) can grasp what the garden will be like, it doesn?t mean they aren?t real.
Look at these parables ? they are showing you/ your mind , so you might grasp what Allah is saying to you by picturing it.
The parable of those who spend their substance in the way of Allah is that of a grain of corn it groweth seven ears, and each ear Hath a hundred grains. Allah giveth manifold increase to whom He pleaseth And Allah careth for all and He knoweth all things.
What they spend in the life of this (material) world May be likened to a wind which brings a nipping frost It strikes and destroys the harvest of men who have wronged their own souls it is not Allah that hath wronged them, but they wrong themselves.
Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried "When (will come) the help of Allah?" Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near!
So is suffering and adversity part of anybodies Garden? No definitely but that is the rout we must follow if it is the right way ? whether it is a garden or hell for us here on earth the right way is to be chosen whether it be a garden like or not. For all this you will get a garden as promised, whether you die going through this dire way.
God Bless.
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Peace Arnold,
That was a very interesting perspective. Could you check if I understand well the article you wrote? here's a summary of keypoints i understand from your article. Thanks in advance, arnold.
p1. The description of Djenna and Gehenna is to be taken as metaphors, allegories.
p2. It is not physical place like we perceived.
p3. It is about inter-relationship of mind and consequences, both affecting the other. (ground of conciousness & deeds)
p4. It can occur in this life and the next life.
p5. the word "fire" represents a state of deteriotion of logic and truth.
p6. gehenna is temporary.
p7. Eventually everyone will be in Djenna, a true gift unfailing... after we learned not to have bad grounds/ states of mind.
salam.
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To clear the confusion anyone might have regarding the reason of "jehannam" coming from the Greek "gehenna"... this is true. Several Greek or Hellenized Hebrew/Aramaic words were incorporated into Arabic through direct Nabataean influence. Injeel is another example derived from Euanggelion... Iblis and balas may be another one coming from the Greek DiaBolos. "Yoonus" is definitely derived from the hellenized name "Yunis" that was derived from Yonah/Jonah. Arnold is correct in his findings...
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To clear the confusion anyone might have regarding the reason of "jehannam" coming from the Greek "gehenna"... this is true. Several Greek or Hellenized Hebrew/Aramaic words were incorporated into Arabic through direct Nabataean influence. Injeel is another example derived from Euanggelion... Iblis and balas may be another one coming from the Greek DiaBolos. "Yoonus" is definitely derived from the hellenized name "Yunis" that was derived from Yonah/Jonah. Arnold is correct in his findings...
peace.
jahannam is not from the greek. ja=valley hannam=idol worshipped by ancient hebrews. gehenna is a semitic word turned greek. same accounts for iblis, iblis does not come from the greek, as the original meaning of iblis has nothing to do with 'demons' as diabolos means in greek.
injil does come from the greek as the subject has a greek origin.
peace
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for Ja-Hannam perhaps a cofusion at my end...
but for Diabolos I specifically used "may" to indicate my own doubt... etymologically, balas is a root word and it is possible it was derived from "bolos" under Nabataean influence, with negative connotation. Bolos could be used for "draw" or "throw" or "cast" something.
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Ah got it... Its comes from the Hebrew word "Ge-hinnom"
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Valley south of Jerusalem that was used as a garbage dump by the Israelites. In the pre-Israelite times the Canaanites worshipped the god Moloch and performed child sacrifices in the valley, burning them in an offering to the deity.
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Consequently the valley long had an association with burning fires and distasteful things.
Bringing us back to Naar and Ruqqum ...
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Peace, arnold, im considering the article seriouly, if i read wrongly your points, pls do correct me ya?
Below is a list of keypoints, perhaps not all, from it. I added supporting items to the keypoints, the one you used in the article. The items are in blue.p1. The description of Djenna and Gehenna is to be taken as metaphors, allegories.
God already explains that the descriptions of Gehenna and Djenna are metaphors, allegories. (see 1335 and 4715)
p2. It is not physical place like we perceived.
p3. It is about inter-relationship of mind and consequences, both affecting the other. (ground of conciousness & deeds) Mostly meaning states of mind..
When understanding the true meaning of yaumwedeen (see end of article), the true understanding of Gehenna and Djenna becomes clear that they are states of mind, as the people of Gehenna can talk with the people of Djenna(744-50) but that there is a veil of difference between the 2 states of mind(746), and that the people of Djenna don't feel the flames of Gehenna because of the difference of thinking(21102). Which refers to that the fires burn away logic and truth.
p4. It can occur in this life and the next life.
yaumwedeen ,3919 On the other hand, he who has inevitably deserved suffering can you save someone who is already consumed in the Fire? can you save someone who is in the Fire
Paradise is already here if you want to see it
3133 Move forward eagerly to the tranquil security that comes from your Lord, and to the Paradise(Djenna) that transcends spatial boundaries, encompassing the Heavens and the Earth. It has already been prepared for those who live upright. And quicken/speed to a forgiveness from your Lord and a treed garden/paradise, its width the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, was/is prepared to the fearing and obeying <-- By Mohamed Ahmed and his daughter Samirap5. the word "fire" represents a state of destruction of logic and truth.
p6. gehenna is temporary.
'eternal' is within conditionsp7. Eventually everyone will be in Djenna, a true gift unfailing... after we learned not to have bad grounds/ states of mind.
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Peace,
Yes, this is a short summary, but as you have read, it is a lot more then just this. Here is my second version of the article
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,420,0,0,1,0
And i'm already busy with a third version.