What Is The Difference Between A Prophet And A Messenger?
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Peace sister "samia",
I think the problem with RK is that he "felt" the difference, but could not put his finger on it; so he claimed to be a "messenger", simply because the verse says about Mohammad (khatem alnabiyyiin). He (RK) did not realize that the verse did not say (khatem alanbiyaa'. He should have called himself "nabi as from anbiyyaa'" and not rasoul, who is sent with a scripture.
JK- No as i mentioned before Rasool can even mean one sent forward with a duty. He can also be sent forward with an existing message and this is the key point your missing. A messeneger does NOT have to bring a new message. Nowhere does the Quran say or indicate that. A messenger may well confirm an existing message and bring it purified to the people which is exactly what RK did, thus completing the function of the messenger mentioned in 381. Hope u got it now. GOD Bless!
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'arbaeen/'arbaoon both meaning forty, 'ishreen/'ishroon both menaing twenty
These are not different plurals; these are grammar-based differences, just like a "fat7a" or a "damma" at the end of a noun.
As for "rusul" and "mursaleen", there IS a difference in the meaning.
Salaam Ahmed. You wrote
What is the link between "Abeed & Nabiyyin" as well between "Ibaad & Anbiyaa", cause I could not find any link to say that Nabi follow what you suhggested regarding Abd, I'm talking grammatically btw
There is no link. It is an example of one word having two different plurals, each indicating a different meaning. Another example kateb writer ,hence kuttaab; or clerk, hence kataba
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Peace sister "samia",
'arbaeen/'arbaoon both meaning forty, 'ishreen/'ishroon both menaing twenty
These are not different plurals; these are grammar-based differences, just like a "fat7a" or a "damma" at the end of a noun.
JK- Yes true andso are rusul/mursaleen. they are type of variants.
As for "rusul" and "mursaleen", there IS a difference in the meaning.
JK- Could you please tell me what the difference on meaning is? GOD Bless!
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Salaam JK
Yes true andso are rusul/mursaleen. they are type of variants.
No, not the same. arbaoon and arbaeen are the same word, not a type of variant.
As for rusul and mursaleen, these are two different derivatives of the same root. rusul plural noun, mursaleen plural positive participle. All rusul are mursaleen but not all mursaleen are rusul. Just like the difference between apple and fruit; or even more, between murdered and dead.
If you scan through the qur'aan for "mursaleen" you will find it for obvious that you can't replace rusul for mursaleen and keep the same meaning.
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Peace jonny_k
I can see you feel very strongly about RK, so I will prefer not to argue with you about it.
My old position was that there will be other messengers after Mohammed, but now I have been convinced that this is not the case, because in order to be a Messenger (Human) you have to be a Prophet.
There cannot be a Human Messenger that is not a Prophet. So Mohammed being the last Prophet, he is also the last (human) Messenger.
And Allah knows best.
Not you, not me not RK but Allah... -
Peace sister "samia",
No, not the same. arbaoon and arbaeen are the same word, not a type of variant.
As for rusul and mursaleen, these are two different derivatives of the same root. rusul plural noun, mursaleen plural positive participle. All rusul are mursaleen but not all mursaleen are rusul. Just like the difference between apple and fruit; or even more, between murdered and dead.
If you scan through the qur'aan for "mursaleen" you will find it for obvious that you can't replace rusul for mursaleen and keep the same meaning.
JK- The difference between dead and murdered doesnt seem to apply to this pair of terms at all. It may well be that grammatically the use of only one of the two terms may suit but still it doesnt effect the MEANING and thats our point aint it? Ill go through the terms usage in the Quran and lets see whether there is a difference in meaning
We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him we sent other messengers(Rusul)...
These are GOD's revelations. We recite them through you*, truthfully, for you are amongst the messengers(mursaleen).
These messengers(Rusul)...
Now take a look at this verse where BOTH terms are mentioned
Messengers(Rusul) before you have been rejected, and they steadfastly persevered in the face of rejection. They were persecuted until our victory came to them. Such is GOD's system that will never change. The history of My messengers(Mursaleen) thus sets the precedents for you.
Now could you please tell me wheres the difference in meaning between the two words here? I dont see any. GOD Bless! -
Peace "noble",
Peace jonny_k
I can see you feel very strongly about RK, so I will prefer not to argue with you about it.
My old position was that there will be other messengers after Mohammed, but now I have been convinced that this is not the case, because in order to be a Messenger (Human) you have to be a Prophet.JK- And what exactly made you believe this? Where is the proof? Ive given lots of proof to show the contrary.
There cannot be a Human Messenger that is not a Prophet. So Mohammed being the last Prophet, he is also the last (human) Messenger.
And Allah knows best.
Not you, not me not RK but Allah...JK- This is the same excuse bro "Fahad(Saladin)" has given but it is mere conjecture. I told him that in this case GOD could have well said "..wa khaatamun nabiyeen WA basharan rasoolan" i.e. "final prophet and human messenger" but none of the latter terms have been used just nabiyeen. Moreover it doesnt make any sense that GOD should not inspire anyone directly anymore after Muhammad. This is what the Hislamics say who want to make Muhammad their idol. The Quran says every ummah(community/nation) will recive a messenger before it gets destroyed and there are many out there who havent received one simply because pf the fact that in every age new communities popup. So the sunni claim that every community in the past received it is ridiculous to say the least. I hope this is clear. GOD Bless!
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Peace
Bro jonny_k
The whole of the Planet now is one Ummah. No barrier of communications anymore, thanks to technology.
There is an alternative view among the Muslim Brotherhood that "every one hundred years or so there will be a muslim referred to as a mujaddid who will bring back people to the true meaning of the Message, one of them having been Hassan AlBannah".
So who is right?
Quran for me is enough, It is the Messenger, and speaks for Itself by Allah's leave... -
This is my view
The well-known difference between a Prophet and a Messenger is that a Messenger is one to whom a law is revealed and he is commanded to convey it, whilst a Prophet is one to whom a law is revealed but he is not commanded to convey it. But this distinction is not free of problems, because a Prophet is also commanded to call people, convey the Message and judge among the people.
?Verily, We did send down the Torah to Moses, therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allaah?s Will, judged for the Jews?
So the Prophets of the Children of Israel judged by the Torah which Allaah had revealed to Moses.
with regard to the aayah
?but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last (end) of the Prophets?
and why it did not say the last of the Messengers ? the end of the Message does not mean the end of Prophethood, but the end of Prophethood does mean the end of the Message. Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said ?There will be no Prophet after me,? and he did not say, there will be no Messenger after me.
Thus we know that there is no Messenger and no Prophet after him (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him); he was the last of the Prophets and of the Messengers, (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
I agree with you totally
Cheers
Ah! my great friend is back D !!
How've u been brother?
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Peace sister "Zainab",
But the Qur'aan clearly says there will be no more prophets nor messengers.
JK- NO it doesnt. It only says Muhammad is the last Prophet. Infact that very verse mentions both terms messenger/prophet. First it is stated that Muhammad was a messenger of GOD and the last Prophet. If hed to be the last messenger too why didnt GOD say "..wa khaatamun nabiyeen WAL mursaleen" i.e. "..and the final Prophet AND messenger"? GOD means what He says.
Perhaps I know why the non-hadeeth adherents say the opposite of the hadeeth adherents .. because various sects like Ismailis and Ahmedis want to make their own spiritual leaders their self-appointed messengers. So they say Prophet Muhammad is not the last messenger. But that's totally wrong. Prophet Muhammad is the last prophet and messenger.
JK- Ahmedis have changed the meaning of "khaatamun nabiyeen" itself to mean "seal/highest degree of prophet" saying that more prophets NOT messengers would come after Muhammad. This is the exact GOD opposite of what ive stated. We dont twist the meanings of words. The Ahmedis can easily be refuted but theres no way of refuting this since the Quran never said Muhammad is the last Rasul. Infact it doesnt make sense coz angels are called Rasool too in the Quran and every lailatulqadr as you know from Quran they come down with the Holy Spirit(Gabriel). So this doesnt make any sense at all. The only way one can say that Muhammad is the last Prohet AND Messenger is by through the false deduction that every messenger must be a prophet. But i can prove this wrong from the Quran right here
Whenever God mentions prophethood in the Quran, He mentions scripture and sometimes wisdom. The association of prophethood and scripture cannot be missed except by those blocked by God from seeing the truth. The following are some examples
"Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn." 379
"Those were the ones to whom we have given the scripture, wisdom, and prophethood. If these people disbelieve, we will substitute others in their place, and the new people will not be disbelievers." 689
"We granted him Isaac and Jacob, we assigned to his descendants prophethood and the scriptures, we endowed him with his due recompense in this life, and in the Hereafter he will surely be with the righteous." 2927
"We have given the Children of Israel the scripture, wisdom, and prophethood, and provided them with good provisions; we bestowed upon them more blessings than any other people." 4516
"We sent Noah and Abraham, and we granted their descendants prophethood and the scripture. Some of them were guided, while many were wicked." 5726
Now comes the very important part
MESSENGER PROPHET and not, PROPHET MESSENGER
The first example for messenger prophet comes from 7157, and 7158 where God described the Prophet Muhammed as, "the messenger the prophet" and not as "the prophet the messenger," not an order of coincidence, . The reason is that not every messenger is a prophet and therefore the word PROPHET is used to further define and clarify the description of that messenger.
"follow the messenger, the prophet (gentile prophet) (Muhammed), whom they find written in their Torah and
Gospel . . . " 7157
"..........therefore you shall believe in God and His messenger, the prophet (gentile prophet), who believes in God and His words. Follow him, that you may be guided." 7158
MOSES, THE MESSENGER PROPHET
In 1951, Moses was described by God as a messenger prophet (Rasoulan Nabyya), and NOT as a prophet messenger (Nabyyan Rasoula).
ISMAIL, THE MESSENGER PROPHET
In 1954, Ismail is described with the same words, 'Rasoulan Nabyyan'.
The reason is that, NOT every Rasoul (Messenger) is a Nabi (Prophet), BUT every Prophet (Nabi) is a Messenger (Rasoul), so God defined the word Rasoul by adding to it Nabyya. God does not make mistakes and He does not choose His words haphazard, it is meant to be in this order.
OTHER EXAMPLES are found in the Quran to clarify this description
HUMAN BEING MESSENGER
"Am I more than a human messenger (Basharan Rasoula)" 1793
Notice, " a human messenger" and NOT "a messenger human (Rasoulan Bashara)."
The reason is that not every Bashar (human) is a Rasoul (messenger) while every Rasoul (messenger) from among us is a Bashar (human).
1794, has the same expression again, human messenger (Basharan Rasoula), not (Rasoulan Bashara)
See now how GOD has placed words in certain order making the first term the common and the second specific?
ANGEL MESSENGER
" . . . we would have sent to them from the sky an angel messenger (Malakan Rasoula)" 1795
Notice, "an angle messenger" and NOT "a messenger angel (Rasoulan Malaka). The reason is that not every angel is a messenger but every messenger FROM God's soldiers is an angel.
SAINT PROPHET
In 1941, God described Abraham as "a Siddiqan Nabyya (Saint Prophet)" and NOT as a Nabyyan Siddiqa, (Prophet Saint). The reason is that not every Siddiq (Saint ) is a prophet, while every prophet is a siddiq.
If God would say, Abraham was a Nabbyan Siddiqua (prophet saint), this would indicate that not every prophet is a saint while every saint is a prophet.
In 1956, God described the prophet Idris the same way, as a Siddiquan Nabyya (Saint prophet).
NO WHERE in the whole Quran does God use these terms different. God never described a prophet as a prophet messenger ( Nabbyan Rasoula), or prophet saint (Nabyyan Siddiqua).
'MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET'
Perhaps one of the strongest indications in the Quran that the words prophet and messenger do not have the same meaning, is found in the following verse
"We did not send before you any MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. GOD then nullifies what the devil has done. GOD perfects His revelations. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise." 2252
If the words prophet and messenger had the same meaning God would not be saying "MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET" ...... would He ? Had the two words had exactly the same meaning , then mentioning one of them would have been sufficient.
GOD Bless!
Thanks for the input jk. However I've already clarified my opinion on a separate post, following the one you've quoted here. I stand firm by it.
Good luck to the rest of this debate. Me, not interested ..
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Salaam JK
These are GOD's revelations. We recite them through you*, truthfully, for you are amongst the messengers(mursaleen).
Messengers(Rusul) before you have been rejected, and they steadfastly persevered in the face of rejection. They were persecuted until our victory came to them. Such is GOD's system that will never change. The history of My messengers(Mursaleen) thus sets the precedents for you.
So, you found only two verses with "mursaleen"? Or you just chose the ones where "rusul" could mean "mursaleen" too? There are nine verses with "mursaluun" and 24 verses with "mursaleen", not all of them mean "rusu".
(BTW mursaluun is the same as mursaleen, except that the former is in the nominative (marfuu3) because it functions as the subject; the latter is in the acusative (mansuub) or the subjonctive (majruur) because it is in the position of direct or indirect object).
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This is my view
The well-known difference between a Prophet and a Messenger is that a Messenger is one to whom a law is revealed and he is commanded to convey it, whilst a Prophet is one to whom a law is revealed but he is not commanded to convey it. But this distinction is not free of problems, because a Prophet is also commanded to call people, convey the Message and judge among the people.
Verily, We did send down the Torah to Moses, therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to Allaahs Will, judged for the Jews
So the Prophets of the Children of Israel judged by the Torah which Allaah had revealed to Moses.
with regard to the aayah
but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last (end) of the Prophets
and why it did not say the last of the Messengers the end of the Message does not mean the end of Prophethood, but the end of Prophethood does mean the end of the Message. Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said There will be no Prophet after me, and he did not say, there will be no Messenger after me.
Thus we know that there is no Messenger and no Prophet after him (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him); he was the last of the Prophets and of the Messengers, (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
I agree with you totally
Cheers
Ah! my great friend is back D !!
How've u been brother?
Thank you sister, I guess it is me who should ask, how have you been?, I donlt see around much, I hope you do in the future
Take care
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I've been okay brother .. still surviving
Thank Allah ..
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Peace sister "samia",
Salaam JK
These are GOD's revelations. We recite them through you*, truthfully, for you are amongst the messengers(mursaleen).
Messengers(Rusul) before you have been rejected, and they steadfastly persevered in the face of rejection. They were persecuted until our victory came to them. Such is GOD's system that will never change. The history of My messengers(Mursaleen) thus sets the precedents for you.
So, you found only two verses with "mursaleen"? Or you just chose the ones where "rusul" could mean "mursaleen" too? There are nine verses with "mursaluun" and 24 verses with "mursaleen", not all of them mean "rusu".
(BTW mursaluun is the same as mursaleen, except that the former is in the nominative (marfuu3) because it functions as the subject; the latter is in the acusative (mansuub) or the subjonctive (majruur) because it is in the position of direct or indirect object).
JK- Ok could you please post some verses here where "rusul" and "mursaleen" do NOT mean the same? Thankyou. GOD Bless!
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Peace bro "noble",
Peace
Bro jonny_k
The whole of the Planet now is one Ummah. No barrier of communications anymore, thanks to technology.JK- There are still many villages and remote areas which are toally cut off from the rest of the world. Only a few months ago i saw a German scientist visitng a totally remote area in the jungle with an unknown tribe which he was exploring. Reagarding technology still the true message is whats to be delievered. Not many people know how to use the technology as to find the Truth and GOD knows that too. The problem is not the barrier of communication since people in the past also had their methods of communication, only it took much longer. The problem is that there are different people with various cultures, thoughts and beliefs. Thus they have to be warned.
There is an alternative view among the Muslim Brotherhood that "every one hundred years or so there will be a muslim referred to as a mujaddid who will bring back people to the true meaning of the Message, one of them having been Hassan AlBannah".
So who is right?JK- This nonsense probably comes from hadith and doesnt aadress the community issue at all. GOD has said that messengers are sent to every community.
Quran for me is enough, It is the Messenger, and speaks for Itself by Allah's leave...
JK- Quran is definitely a/the messenger. Infact RK was the one who pointed this out in the following verse
a messenger* who recites to you GOD's revelations, clearly, to lead those who believe and work righteousness out of the darkness into the light. Anyone who believes in GOD and leads a righteous life, He will admit him into gardens with flowing streams; they abide therein forever. GOD will generously reward him.
*6510-11 TheMessenger'' here is clearly the Quran. Verse 10 talks aboutsending down a message,'' and this points to the Quran as the messenger in 6511 (Appendix 20).
So thats nothing new to me but as i said sometimes mankind needs a boost and a proof which maybe in the Quran but not visible. Thus GOD sends a human messenger to make it so. I hope you got my point. GOD Bless! -
Salaam JK
JK- Ok could you please post some verses here where "rusul" and "mursaleen" do NOT mean the same? Thankyou. GOD Bless!
I was thinking of this verse when I wrote that mursaleen are not rusul
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in the sense that "rusul" are those sent with a message from Allah humans; angels (we agree on that) or the message itself; hence is the above example.
But "generally " speaking, you are right; they are the same -
Peace sister "samia",
I was thinking of this verse when I wrote that mursaleen are not rusul
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in the sense that "rusul" are those sent with a message from Allah humans; angels (we agree on that) or the message itself; hence is the above example.
But "generally " speaking, you are right; they are the sameJK- I get your confusion now. You think since GOD never used "rusul" for any other than His own messengers in the Quran and "Mursaloon" has been used for other messengers of other humans thts the difference. But this is not an issue at all. Since the word "Ar-rasool" ,muarifa, itself has once been used for a messenger other than that of GOD's i.e. the messenger of Pharaoh
The king said, "Bring him to me." When the messenger came to him(Joseph), he(Joseph) said, "Go back to your lord(the king) and ask him to investigate the women who cut their hands. My Lord is fully aware of their schemes."
So this usage can ahppen and it can happen with mursaleen/mursaloon too. Doesnt make a difference in the meaning as youve ascknoledged also and more importantly doesnt change the facts which ive already stated to prove my point. GOD Bless!