Hunting in Arabia
-
Peace,
Could someone provide information about hunting in Arabia ?
In particular, I would like to know what are the animal species hunted in Arabia.
Here is the only one I have found
http//www.animalinfo.org/species/artiperi/oryxleuc.htmThanks in advance
Peace
-
Here is the information I have gathered about hunted animals in Saudi Arabia
There is a diversity of wildlife throughout the Kingdom. Some of these are on the endangered species list, like the Nubian ibex and the Arabian oryx. Others, such as the baboons in the western mountains, are numerous. There are foxes, hares, wolves, gazelles, and various species of wild cats, including the caracal lynx. There are many birds, both indigenous and migratory, including golden eagles, Houbara bustards, and flamingos, as well as many kinds of plover. And as might be expected, there is a wide range of reptiles, especially lizards.
http//www.kfshrc.edu.sa/arabian/html/faq_geography.htmlHardest hit have been the ungulates. Apart from domestic stock, we saw no wild ungulates on our brief travels, nor any signs of their passing. The closest we came to wild ungulates were through the memories of villagers who pointed to the high mountain ridges and explained that everything except the Hamadryas baboons, hyrax and the hares had been hunted. On the corners of some of the houses in Sana'a old city we saw the horns of Nubian ibex (Capra ibex nubiana) but from their condition they seemed to be very old. The Arabian oryx (Oryx leucoryx) was said to have survived in the Wadi Jauf region into the early 1960's and rumours still circulate of it being sighted on the edge of the Rub-al-Khali but this seems to us to be highly unlikely. Although after our "rediscovery" of the Arabian tahr in the United Arab Emirates- we now say, never say never! Another species that, in our opinion, is unlikely to have survived is the Queen of Sheba gazella (Gazella bilkis), which was only known to have occurred on the high altitude plains and hills around the city of Ta'izz. The last known specimens were collected in 1951 and are deposited in the collection of the Chicago Field Museum of Natural History. The animal is not however totally extinct since four of these beautiful gazelles, that were collected within the past few years in Yemen, are presently held in a private collection in Qatar. Although the mountain gazelle, or idmi (Gazella gazella), the dorcas gazelle (Gazella dorcas) and the rhim (Gazella subgutturosa) were once widely distibuted in the country, they have now been eradicated over much of their former range and it is highly unlikely that more than a few hundred could have survived.
However, we did encounter that primative ungulate, the rock hyrax (Procavia capensis jayakari) at a number of localities, usually by its characteristic call and the white and brown urine stains on the rocks in the vicinity of their shelters. Hares (Lepus capensis) were not uncommon on the plains and sands of the Tihama coastal plain judging by tracks encountered.
http//www.arabianwildlife.com/archive/vol3.2/felix.htmOryxes
Arabian oryx (Oryx leucoryx) http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Oryx_leucoryx.htmlIbexes
Nubian ibex (Capra nubiana)
http//www.ultimateungulate.com/Artiodactyla/Capra_nubiana.htmlGazelles
Arabian gazelle ( Gazella arabica) http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/8981/all
Queen Of Sheba's gazelle (Gazella bilkis) http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/8987/all
Mountain gazelle (Gazella gazella) http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Gazella_gazella.html
Dorcas gazelle (Gazella dorcas) http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Gazella_dorcas.html
Goitered gazelle (Gazella subgutturosa) http//www.ultimateungulate.com/Artiodactyla/Gazella_subgutturosa.htmlHares
Cape hare (Lepus capensis)
http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Lepus_capensis.html
European hare (Lepus europaeus)
http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Lepus_europaeus.htmlHyraces
Rock hyrax (Procavia capensis) http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Procavia_capensis.htmlBaboons
Hamadryas baboon (Hamadryas Baboon ) http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Papio_hamadryas.htmlHere is the complete list of animals to be found in Arabia
http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/search.php?freetext=&modifier=phrase&criteria=wholedb&taxa_species=1&redlistCategory%5B%5D=all&redlistAssessyear%5B%5D=all&country%5B%5D=SA&aquatic%5B%5D=all®ions%5B%5D=all&habitats%5B%5D=all&threats%5B%5D=all&Submit.x=48&Submit.y=17Feel free to check I have not omitted other hunted species.
Peace
-
Assuming the list is complete, the question would be now what could be the species hunted at the time of the prophet ?
And, the most interesting question considering the reproduction period of the hunted animals, could a hunting restriction during Summer be pertinent?
Peace
-
Another piece of info
The animals found in Arabia include the now-rare oryx, camels, hyenas, wolves, and jackals. The oryx with its two parallel horns is believed to have inspired the stories of the mythical unicorn. Other animals are similar to those found in Saharan Africa and the southwestern United States, including scorpions, snakes, spiders, lizards, hares, and rodents. Sheep, still kept by some tribes, are herded as far as Iraq and Syria for temporary spring grazing. The famous saluqi hound, a northern African desert dog, is used to hunt gazelles, while the prized Arabian stallions and falcons are owned by the ruling families. The bustard, a bird related to the cranes and hunted for food and sport, has virtually disappeared.
http//www.britannica.com/ebi/article-196532It adds a species to the list
Arabian Bustard (Ardeotis arabs) http//www.birdlife.org/datazone/sites/index.html?action=SpcHTMDetails.asp&sid=2765&m=0
-
In the preceding article, there was a very valuable information the Arabs used salukis hounds to hunt.
The Quran (verse ) indeed confirms the people used dogs (salukis) and birds (maybe falcons) to hunt.
Here are some of the animals these dogs are able to hunt
The quarry also dictates the type of Saluki you need. If you are coursing donkeys (which used to be done), Oryx, or other large antelope, you need quite a different dog than if you are coursing hares. Theoretically, if you want to build a hound with which to course gazelle, and also build a hound to course hares, you are going to end up with two quite different hounds. When Salukis chase gazelles they run them down by exhausting them. There is no Saluki, in this country anyway, that can run anywhere near as fast as a gazelle. The Saluki can't just outsprint a gazelle as a cheetah does, but must somehow keep it in sight and exhaust it. For this, the Saluki needs a very efficient gait. It doesn't have to be a sprinter; it doesn't need to be able to turn in its own length at speed; it only has to be a good distance runner. If you want a Saluki for hares, you want an agile sprinter - a hound that can get up to the hare fast, with a long neck to reach out and catch it when it tries to escape by turning. Those are two very different looking dogs. If you look at the Salukis that have been imported from the Middle East you will see both of those types. That's why both of those types are there.
http//saluqi.home.netcom.com/belkin.htmTheir native quarry includes hare, gazelle, and bustard.
http//www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/breeds/salukis.htmlFrom ancient to modern times the Saluki has been used to hunt gazelle, hare, bustard (a type of bird), jackal, fox, and wild ass.
http//www.faqs.org/faqs/dogs-faq/breeds/salukis/Salukis and falcons were used together to hunt gazelle.
http//us.geocities.com/eris_elessar/info.htmlSaluki was among the many hunting methods and techniques used and followed Saluki was then used in chasing small animals like wild rabbits, jerboas, deer and other types of gazelles, also hunting when accompanied with falcons whereas the falcon is trained on the prey with the saluki.
http//www.arabiansaluki.ae/arts-text.htmlMore info (and perhaps info about the hunting restrictions) is to be found in the following (not free) articles
http//jss.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprintframed/26/2/235
http//www.ingentaconnect.com/content/routledg/raaf/2004/00000035/00000001/art00005Peace
-
I have searched information in the hadith, and I have found there some interesting material.
In the muwatta of Malik, there are several hadith on the compensation one shall give after hunting under restriction.
Here is an example
Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zubayr that Umar ibn al-Khattab gave the judgement of a ram for a hyena, a female goat for a gazelle, a she-goat less than one year old for a rabbit, and a four month old kid for a jerboa.
http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/020.mmt.html#020.20.72.239We learn in the muwatta that, the hyena, the pigeons and the ostriches could have been among hunted animals.
But, what is more interesting is that it is said to be forbidden to kill even the locusts (http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muwatta/020.mmt.html#020.20.73.244).
Now, here is how the sunni define ihram today http//fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihram
Considering all these hadith about hunting under "ihram", it is far more likely that these hadith are about a real hunting restriction, rather that what we call today the state of ihram (which is required only for a few days).
In the sahih of Bukhari (which was compiled later), there are many hadith narrating the following story. A man kills an onager (wild ass). He is not under ihram, but his companions are. They all eat the meat of the game. Then he goes to the prophet, and asks him the opinion of the prophet about it. The prophet answers that there is nothing wrong with it.
cf http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/029.sbt.html#003.029.047
In Bukhari, the definition of ihram is far closer as today's one that in the hadith of the muwatta. So there seems to have been an evolution between Malik and Bukhari regarding the sense of the restriction (further research is needed).
We could also note that, in Bukhari, there is a permission to kill five animals the crow, the kite, the mouse, the scorpion and the rabid dog.(http//www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/029.sbt.html#003.029.054).
An interesting link about the onagers (wild asses)
Al-Nuwayri states that the most common hunting methods during his time (8/14th century) were birds of prey or hunting dogs to chase the onager, metal spikes in their path to cripple them, bows and arrows and spears to kill them.
Their amazing speed when running from danger was a well known fact to the Arabs, and mentioned in the Koran when describing the retreat of unbelievers "as if they were asses fleeing before a lion", Sura 74, Verse 50.
http//www.arabianwildlife.com/archive/vol1.2/onager.htm
It is time to complete the list of possible hunted animals at the time of the prophet.
Wild asses
Syrian wild ass (Equus hemionus hemippus)
http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/7962/allhttp//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Equus_hemionus.html
Persian wild ass (Equus hemionus onager)
http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/7966/all
http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/classification/Equus_onager.html#Equus%20onagerOstriches
Ostrich (Struthio camelus)
http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/46918/all
http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Struthio_camelus.htmlHyenas
striped hyena (Hyaena hyaena)
http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/10274/all http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Hyaena_hyaena.htmlJerboas
greater Egyptian jerboa (Jaculus orientalis)
http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/10913/all
http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Jaculus_orientalis.html
lesser Egyptian jerboa (Jaculus jaculus)
http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/10912/all
http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Jaculus_jaculus.html
Euphrates jerboa (Allactaga euphratica)
http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/854/all
http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Allactaga_euphratica.htmlPigeons
African olive-pigeon (Columba arquatrix)
http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/48710/all
http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/classification/Columba_arquatrix.html
Common pigeon (Columba livia)
http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/48701/all
http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Columba_livia.html
Stock pigeon (Columba oenas)
http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/48706/all
Bruce's green-pigeon (Treron waalia)
http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/48831/all
Here is another interesting link http//www.arabhunter.com/
We can read there that some other birds can be hunted in Arabia, like quails or chukars, nut, since they seem not to be mentioned in older sources, I will ignore it.
In the next post, God willing, I am going to look at the reproduction period of the species which are the most endangered by extensive hunting.
-
My aim is to assess the claim of Ayman about the hunting restriction is summer
It is not a coincidence that most wild animals and birds give birth in the spring and summer.
So the restriction on hunting during the summer protects wild animals that are born or newly born until they can fend for themselves. It also protects their mothers because if a hunter kills the mother, he would be killing all of her young offspring who still rely on her.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6238.msg96973#msg96973Since there is a large amount of kinds of animals that could have been hunted at the time of the prophet in Arabia, I have chosen to restrict myself to animals whose species may be endangered by extensive fighting, and whose cost of killing a young is higher ; that is deer, gazelles, and wild asses.
There are some animals are extinct today, therefore, there is no information available about their reproduction mode.
Arabian oryx (Oryx leucoryx)
Reproductive timing in O.leucoryx varies. However, in favorable conditions, a female can produce a calf once a year during any month. Most births among introduced herds in Oman and Jordan occur from October to May. Gestation period in this species is about 240 days. Young are weaned by 4.5 months, and captive females initially give birth at age 2.5-3.5 years.
cf http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Oryx_leucoryx.html
=> Births generally between October and may. Weaning 4.5 months.
Nubian ibex (Capra nubiana)
Breeding interval Alpine ibex breed once yearly.
Breeding season Mating occurs in late fall.
Number of offspring 1 to 2; avg. 1
Gestation period 147 to 180 days; avg. 163.50 days
Age at sexual or reproductive maturity (female) 10 months (low)
Age at sexual or reproductive maturity (male) 10 months (low)Males join the females in December after fierce battles with other males. The winner of the battle obtains the right to breed with group of 10 ? 20 females. The gestation period for the ibex is approximately 147 ? 180 days. A day after parturition, the young are able to walk on the rock cliffs following their mothers. The young are mature at 8 ? 12 months, but don?t breed until 2 or 3 years of age. Ibex typically have one young per year, and more than one is uncommon.
cf http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Capra_ibex.html
=> Births between May and June
Gestation Period 5 months.
Young per Birth 1-2
Weaning After 3 months.
Sexual Maturity At 2-3 years.
Life span Up to 17 years.
Mating occurs during the late summer months, especially October. The majority of kids are born in March.cf http//www.ultimateungulate.com/Artiodactyla/Capra_nubiana.html
=> Births in March. Weaning 3 months.
Mountain gazelle (Gazella gazella)
Gazelles are found in small groups of 3-8 individuals. Males are territorial with one or more females and their young. The company females keep is determined primarily by their reproductive status. Mating occurs in early winter (October-November), but can take place year-round where food is available. Births usually occur from April to May with the females usually only have one young per season. Estrous occurs every 18 day and lasts 12-24 hours until the female becomes pregnant. Female gazelles copulate with more then one male. The gestation period is 180 days and offspring are born weighing 11-12% of the mother?s mass. Birth takes place in isolation and the precocial young can stand and walk shortly after birth. The young spend the first weeks nursing and when they are three to six weeks old they begin to feed on solid food. Suckling may last up to three months. Around this time, the mother and young join a small maternity herd.
cf http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Gazella_gazella.html
=> Births between April and May. Weaning 3 months.
Dorcas gazelle (Gazella dorcas)
Breeding interval Breeding occurs once yearly.
Breeding season Breeding occurs from September to November.
Number of offspring 1 (average)
Gestation period 6 months (average)
Time to weaning 3 months (average)
Time to independence 1 years (low)
Age at sexual or reproductive maturity (female) 2 years (average)During the September to November mating season males will guard territory marked by their droppings. Depending on local climate, a group of G. dorcas will consist of one or two males with a harem of females or just a male-female pair. In extreme climates, where resources are scarce, they primarily associate in pairs. (Yom-Tov, Mendelssohn, and Groves, 1995)
In the wild, females will usually begin reproducing around age two. In captivity pregnancy can happen as early as six months of age. About 90% of females in the wild became pregnant. They give birth to only one offspring per pregnancy in almost all cases. Pregnancy lasts around six months and the fawn is born with hair and open eyes. Young spend the majority of their first two weeks curled up in the shade. Afterwards they will follow the mother around looking for solid food. Males do not seem to participate in the care of the young, except indirectly through resource defense for the group. (Ward and Saltz, 1994; Yom-Tov, Mendelssohn, and Groves, 1995)
Females nurse their young for one to two minutes several times a day for around 3 months. For the first two weeks of the young gazelle's life, the mother grazes and sleeps away from the young gazelle, leaving it in a safe spot. As the young gazelle grows, they join their natal group for the first year, or longer.
cf http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Gazella_dorcas.html=> Births between February and April. Weaning 3 months.
Goitered gazelle (Gazella subgutturosa)
Gestation Period 5-6 months.
Young per Birth 1 or 2, rarely up to 4
Weaning After 4-5 months.
Sexual Maturity Females at 9 months, males around 18 months.
Life span 10-12 years.Unlike many gazelles, the goitered gazelle has a restricted breeding season. This occurs from November to January, with the resulting births taking place in April and May. The young lie camouflaged away from their mothers for the first 2 weeks, gaining strength and stability on their wobbly legs. The mother generally returns to nurse three times each day.
cf http//www.ultimateungulate.com/Artiodactyla/Gazella_subgutturosa.html
=> Births between April and May. Weaning 4-5 months.
Persian wild ass (Equus hemionus onager)
Breeding interval Onager mares breed every other year.
Breeding season Onagers usually mate in mid-June.
Number of offspring 1 to 1; avg. 1
Gestation period 365 to 368 days
Time to weaning 18 to 24 months
Time to independence 2 years (average)
Age at sexual or reproductive maturity (female) 2 years (average)
Age at sexual or reproductive maturity (male) 2 to 4 years; avg. 3 yearsDuring mating season in mid-June, stallions fight each other for mating rights. Females have a short estrus period of 3 to 5 days. After a year-long gestation, mares leave the herd to give birth in a safe place. A single foal is born that stays with its mother for two years. After giving birth, both mare and foal rejoin the herd, where the mother protects her foal from danger. ("Iran Nature and Wildlife Magazine", 2004; Nowak, 1999)
Pregnancy in onagers lasts 365 to 368 days. Nowak (1999) reports that lactation in female Equus hemionus (a species of wild ass in which some authorities include onagers) nurse their young for between 1 and 1.5 years. It is reasonable to assume that onagers fall within this range. Young onagers become independent around two years of age. Females are sexually mature around the age of 2, but males, at least in E. hemionus, mature about a year later. ("Iran Nature and Wildlife Magazine", 2004; Nowak, 1999)
All members of the genus Equus are fairly precocial at birth, and are able to run shortly after birth. During the first two years of a foal's life, it stays with its mother. Mares protect their foals against all dangers. Nursing lasts between 1.5 and 2 years. Although specific details on the relationship between maternal dominance status and status of offsping, it is reasonable to assume that this species is like other members of the genus. If E. onager is like other horses, maternal dominance status affects status of the young within the herd. The role of males in care of offspring has not been reported. ("Iran Nature and Wildlife Magazine", 2004; Nowak, 1999)cf http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/classification/Equus_onager.html#Equus%20onager
=> Births in June. Weaning 18-24 months.
Conclusions
Except for onagers, the births of hunted animals occur in spring (not in summer), and the weaning period (during which killing a mother can result in the death of the young) last about 3 month. So, for these species, a hunting restriction should be more relevant in spring than in summer.
For the onagers, the data I have are strange, because, according to it, the onagers breed in june, their gestation last one year, and they have 1 offspring per year. It would imply that they breed immediately after parturition. Anyway, the weaning period last 2 years (so, 2 years of weakness if the weaning period is the criteria). But, the onager can run shortly after birth. So, it is difficult to know from these data in which period the young onager can die if his mother is killed.
Any feedback would be appreciated
Peace
-
Peace JM,
It is interesting how between the time of Malik and Bukhari, the hunting restriction gradually shifted from being about the animals to being about some human religious ritual.
Except for onagers, the births of hunted animals occur in spring (not in summer), and the weaning period (during which killing a mother can result in the death of the young) last about 3 month. So, for these species, a hunting restriction should be more relevant in spring than in summer.
Thank you for digging up all the above info. Yes, the weaning period is when the animals should be protected and from the data you collected, the minimum weaning period is 3 months (the average seems to be 4-5 months) and the majority of births seem to occur in May. This would indicate that on average the weaning period is in the June-September timeframe. The data you provided clearly supports a summer hunting restriction.
On the other hand, your statement that "weaning period (during which killing a mother can result in the death of the young)" contradicts your conclusion of a "spring hunting restriction" (March-May) when for the first month most of the animals are not even born yet.
There are also other factors that further confirm a summer hunting restriction. Wildlife mortality rate follows a kind of "bath tub" curve, where you naturally get high mortality at the beginning and at the end and a lower stable mortality rate in between. In the first few weeks after birth many of the weakest newborn will naturally die without any human influence due to birth defects, disease, etc. The issue is how to protect the remaining newborn population from decimation by humans.
Also, in the first couple of weeks or so after birth, the newborn and the mother rarely venture out too far from their "home". It is only when they have grown enough to be able to walk for a significant distance that they can venture far and their likelihood of coming in contact with humans greatly increases. Interestingly, if you look in Classical Arabic dictionaries under "ramad", you will see "ramadan" and you will also see "taramad" as one of the derivatives. The word "taramad" describes a method of hunting that the Arabs used during the hottest time of the year. The method doesn't require any skill or tools. All that it requires are well fed and hydrated horses. Using this method, all that the hunter has to do is to chase the prey in the heat until it falls down by itself from heat exhaustion. Of course, the first animals that would fall down to this inhumane hunting method are the young who are not as strong as adult animals. Of course, the name of this hunting method is linked to "ramadan" and its association with the hottest time of the year is very telling.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace JM,
It is interesting how between the time of Malik and Bukhari, the hunting restriction gradually shifted from being about the animals to being about some human religious ritual.
Yes, indeed, although it needs further research.
Anyway, I think that we should not be reluctant to search into the hadith clues about the corruption of Islam. We shall be able to give the names of the main corruptors, and to use the hadith to explain how the corruption took place.
This is what did Ahmed Shaffat for the rajm verse http//www.islamicperspectives.com/Stoning3.htmExcept for onagers, the births of hunted animals occur in spring (not in summer), and the weaning period (during which killing a mother can result in the death of the young) last about 3 month. So, for these species, a hunting restriction should be more relevant in spring than in summer.
Thank you for digging up all the above info. Yes, the weaning period is when the animals should be protected and from the data you collected, the minimum weaning period is 3 months (the average seems to be 4-5 months) and the majority of births seem to occur in May. This would indicate that on average the weaning period is in the June-September timeframe. The data you provided clearly supports a summer hunting restriction.
I am not sure when can say that the majority of births occur in May. I would rather say April.
Arabian oryx (Oryx leucoryx) => Births generally between October and may. Weaning 4.5 months.
Nubian ibex (Capra nubiana) => Births in March. Weaning 3 months.
Mountain gazelle (Gazella gazella) => Births between April and May. Weaning 3 months.
Dorcas gazelle (Gazella dorcas) => Births between February and April. Weaning 3 months.
Goitered gazelle (Gazella subgutturosa) => Births between April and May. Weaning 4-5 months.NB About the ibex, according to one source I have given, mating occurs in December and parturition in may. But this information does not concern the nubian ibex (capra nubiana), but the capra ibex (I have made a mistake).
Furthermore, I don?t understand why, assuming the birth occur in May, one should wait June or July to restrict hunting.
On the other hand, your statement that "weaning period (during which killing a mother can result in the death of the young)" contradicts your conclusion of a "spring hunting restriction" (March-May) when for the first month most of the animals are not even born yet.
Spring is from march to June.
There are also other factors that further confirm a summer hunting restriction. Wildlife mortality rate follows a kind of "bath tub" curve, where you naturally get high mortality at the beginning and at the end and a lower stable mortality rate in between. In the first few weeks after birth many of the weakest newborn will naturally die without any human influence due to birth defects, disease, etc. The issue is how to protect the remaining newborn population from decimation by humans.
Could you back that ?
Also, in the first couple of weeks or so after birth, the newborn and the mother rarely venture out too far from their "home". It is only when they have grown enough to be able to walk for a significant distance that they can venture far and their likelihood of coming in contact with humans greatly increases.
Really ?
Nubian ibex (Capra nubiana) A day after parturition, the young are able to walk on the rock cliffs following their mothers.
Mountain gazelle (Gazella gazella) Birth takes place in isolation and the precocial young can stand and walk shortly after birth.
Dorcas gazelle (Gazella dorcas) Young spend the majority of their first two weeks curled up in the shade. Afterwards they will follow the mother around looking for solid food.
Goitered gazelle (Gazella subgutturosa) young lie camouflaged away from their mothers for the first 2 weeks, gaining strength and stability on their wobbly legs.
Oryx Like all hoofed animals, the young are able to get up and follow their mothers when they are just one hour old! (http//www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-oryx.html)Please also note that, given the way they may have been hunted with the help of saluki dogs and falcons, the young animals may have been endangered wherever they were.
At one time, the Saluki was carried on camel or horseback to keep him fresh for the chase. Arab hunters, on their mounts with a hawk on their wrist, and a saluki up before them, would go into the desert to hunt. At the selected area, the hawks would be sent out questing for game. When the hawks found a herd of gazelle or oryx, they would circle high in the sky above the herd. The watching salukis were then freed and would race toward the location of the circling hawk, often miles from their starting position, while the hunters followed on their fleet horses or camels. The salukis would then single out their target and the chase would begin. Sometimes the chase was short and fast; but at other times, the chase lasted for many miles, testing the stamina and heart of the Salukis.
Once the prey was caught, it was brought down by a firm grip on the animal's throat by the strong jaws of the saluki. http//salukiho.tripod.com/hunting.htmlInterestingly, if you look in Classical Arabic dictionaries under "ramad", you will see "ramadan" and you will also see "taramad" as one of the derivatives. The word "taramad" describes a method of hunting that the Arabs used during the hottest time of the year. The method doesn't require any skill or tools. All that it requires are well fed and hydrated horses. Using this method, all that the hunter has to do is to chase the prey in the heat until it falls down by itself from heat exhaustion. Of course, the first animals that would fall down to this inhumane hunting method are the young who are not as strong as adult animals. Of course, the name of this hunting method is linked to "ramadan" and its association with the hottest time of the year is very telling.
Peace,
Ayman
Very interesting, however, we learn in the Quran that the people used dogs and birds to hunt (), but there is no mention of horses.
Can you give evidence that this hunting method was really used at the time of the prophet ? There is no verse in the Quran condemning it.
What kind of animals could they catch with this method ?Peace
-
Peace JM, all,
I am not sure when can say that the majority of births occur in May. I would rather say April.
Arabian oryx (Oryx leucoryx) => Births generally between October and may. Weaning 4.5 months.
Nubian ibex (Capra nubiana) => Births in March. Weaning 3 months.
Mountain gazelle (Gazella gazella) => Births between April and May. Weaning 3 months.
Dorcas gazelle (Gazella dorcas) => Births between February and April. Weaning 3 months.
Goitered gazelle (Gazella subgutturosa) => Births between April and May. Weaning 4-5 months.Here is what you presented previously about the Dorcas Gazelle
"During the September to November mating season males will guard territory marked by their droppings?.Pregnancy lasts around six months"
According to the above (Sep-Nov + 6 months), the births would occur in March-May, not February to April. So the weaning period would end between June and September.
NB About the ibex, according to one source I have given, mating occurs in December and parturition in may. But this information does not concern the nubian ibex (capra nubiana), but the capra ibex (I have made a mistake).
The Capra Ibex lives in vast areas from Europe all the way south to Ethiopia and east to China. Clearly given that its mating is in December and the birth is 6 months later, this would result in the majority of births in May. So the weaning would end in August-September.
Furthermore, I don?t understand why, assuming the birth occur in May, one should wait June or July to restrict hunting.
It is because you need to understand that the issue is about the period when humans, as opposed to birth defects and infant diseases, are the greatest threat to animals.
Your suggestion to start the hunting restriction in March, when most of those animals haven't even been born yet doesn't make any sense. Even in April and May, the newly born animals are far more likely to die naturally from disease and birth defects than from humans (due to the natural "bathtub" mortality distribution). This is especially true given the fact that in those first few weeks they don't venture far and hence are less likely to come in contact with humans or have their trail picked up by hunting dogs.
Your suggestion to resume hunting in the summer, as opposed to in the fall, also doesn't make any sense and contradicts the vast majority of scientific-based hunting restrictions in the world. Usually, it is the fall when most hunting is resumed, not the summer.
I can tell you from first hand experience that in the spring I never see a deer in my backyard and when I do rarely see a wild rabbit, it is a full grown one. On the other hand, in the summer, almost every day my kids spot (and occasionally chase around) very small rabbits in our backyard and often a small deer would come hoping through the yard. Moreover, those baby animals are inexperienced so unlike the large rabbits who rapidly run into the woods when they see us, a baby rabbit the other day hid underneath the grill when he saw my kids and cornered himself. It is good for him that I am following the proper restriction timing otherwise he would be dinner according to your timing.
Also, remember that the hunting restriction includes wild birds. I know first hand that wild birds give birth in the late spring-mid summer timeframe. Just a couple of days ago, I noticed a Robbin's nest with tiny blue eggs in a hanging plant basket on my back porch.
In the deserts of Arabia, where the rainy season is in the spring and fall, the situation would be far worse in the summer when it is very dry and animals have to travel far to find water. Often this very same scarce water is used by humans. So the likelihood of contact with animals that are already exhausted from the heat and thirst greatly increases. Animals that are too tired to run and that will risk coming in close proximity with humans so that they can drink and forage for food are an easy catch. Easy to catch animals is the test talked about in 594.
005.094
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! Allah doth but make a trial of you in a little matter of game well within reach of your hands and your lances, that He may test who feareth him unseen any who transgress thereafter, will have a grievous penalty.Encounters with such easy to catch animals are far more likely to occur in the summer than in the spring.
There are also other factors that further confirm a summer hunting restriction. Wildlife mortality rate follows a kind of "bath tub" curve, where you naturally get high mortality at the beginning and at the end and a lower stable mortality rate in between. In the first few weeks after birth many of the weakest newborn will naturally die without any human influence due to birth defects, disease, etc. The issue is how to protect the remaining newborn population from decimation by humans.
Could you back that ?This is a well known fact. For example, you can see
Sharayu Paranjpe; M. B. Rajarshi, "Modelling Non-Monotonic Survivorship Data With Bathtub Distributions", Ecology, Vol. 67, No. 6. (Dec., 1986), pp. 1693-1695.
Here is an excerpt
"For individuals of a biological population, when followed from actual birth to death, a bathtub hazard function is often most appropriate. In the initial phase of life, deaths result primarily from hereditary defects, genetic disorders, infant diseases, and hostile environments."
Also, in the first couple of weeks or so after birth, the newborn and the mother rarely venture out too far from their "home". It is only when they have grown enough to be able to walk for a significant distance that they can venture far and their likelihood of coming in contact with humans greatly increases.
Really ?
Nubian ibex (Capra nubiana) A day after parturition, the young are able to walk on the rock cliffs following their mothers.
Mountain gazelle (Gazella gazella) Birth takes place in isolation and the precocial young can stand and walk shortly after birth.
Dorcas gazelle (Gazella dorcas) Young spend the majority of their first two weeks curled up in the shade. Afterwards they will follow the mother around looking for solid food.
Goitered gazelle (Gazella subgutturosa) young lie camouflaged away from their mothers for the first 2 weeks, gaining strength and stability on their wobbly legs.
Oryx Like all hoofed animals, the young are able to get up and follow their mothers when they are just one hour old! (http//www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-oryx.html)Yes "really", even according to your own quotes above!
It doesn't matter if they are able to walk. What matters is if they are able to venture out far because then the likelihood of them coming in contact with humans or the Saluki picking up their trail greatly increases.
Please also note that, given the way they may have been hunted with the help of saluki dogs and falcons, the young animals may have been endangered wherever they were.
No, the Saluki needs to pick the trail of the animal to find it. Thus, the farther the animal travels, the more likely their trail will be sniffed by the Saluki. Also, the falcons are less likely to spot a hiding animal than to spot an animal traveling far in the open desert.
At one time, the Saluki was carried on camel or horseback to keep him fresh for the chase. Arab hunters, on their mounts with a hawk on their wrist, and a saluki up before them, would go into the desert to hunt. At the selected area, the hawks would be sent out questing for game. When the hawks found a herd of gazelle or oryx, they would circle high in the sky above the herd. The watching salukis were then freed and would race toward the location of the circling hawk, often miles from their starting position, while the hunters followed on their fleet horses or camels. The salukis would then single out their target and the chase would begin. Sometimes the chase was short and fast; but at other times, the chase lasted for many miles, testing the stamina and heart of the Salukis.
Once the prey was caught, it was brought down by a firm grip on the animal's throat by the strong jaws of the saluki. http//salukiho.tripod.com/hunting.htmlWhy would the Saluki need to be carried to be kept fresh? Because this was clearly done during a time of the year when it is hot and heat exhaustion would be a factor in exhausting the Saluki even if it was just simply walking and not even running.
Interestingly, if you look in Classical Arabic dictionaries under "ramad", you will see "ramadan" and you will also see "taramad" as one of the derivatives. The word "taramad" describes a method of hunting that the Arabs used during the hottest time of the year. The method doesn't require any skill or tools. All that it requires are well fed and hydrated horses. Using this method, all that the hunter has to do is to chase the prey in the heat until it falls down by itself from heat exhaustion. Of course, the first animals that would fall down to this inhumane hunting method are the young who are not as strong as adult animals. Of course, the name of this hunting method is linked to "ramadan" and its association with the hottest time of the year is very telling.
Very interesting, however, we learn in the Quran that the people used dogs and birds to hunt (), but there is no mention of horses.
Can you give evidence that this hunting method was really used at the time of the prophet ? There is no verse in the Quran condemning it.
What kind of animals could they catch with this method ?Of course, the chase can be done using horses, dogs or even camels. Remember that speed is not the factor here. The only factor is the exhaustion of the prey due to the extreme heat conditions and as a result it becomes an easy catch. This can only happen in the hottest time of the year and certainly not in the spring. Of course, any animal that gets exhausted from running in the heat can be caught using this method. 594 clearly talks about The God testing the adherence to the restriction with animals that are easy catch.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace JM, all,
I am not sure when can say that the majority of births occur in May. I would rather say April.
Arabian oryx (Oryx leucoryx) => Births generally between October and may. Weaning 4.5 months.
Nubian ibex (Capra nubiana) => Births in March. Weaning 3 months.
Mountain gazelle (Gazella gazella) => Births between April and May. Weaning 3 months.
Dorcas gazelle (Gazella dorcas) => Births between February and April. Weaning 3 months.
Goitered gazelle (Gazella subgutturosa) => Births between April and May. Weaning 4-5 months.Here is what you presented previously about the Dorcas Gazelle
"During the September to November mating season males will guard territory marked by their droppings?.Pregnancy lasts around six months"
According to the above (Sep-Nov + 6 months), the births would occur in March-May, not February to April. So the weaning period would end between June and September.
Yes, it is March-May, you are right.
So, the weaning period should be between March and and June for the ones birthed in March.
And it would be May-August for the ones birthed in May.
So, the weaning period would be between March and August, with a peak in May and June.NB About the ibex, according to one source I have given, mating occurs in December and parturition in may. But this information does not concern the nubian ibex (capra nubiana), but the capra ibex (I have made a mistake).
The Capra Ibex lives in vast areas from Europe all the way south to Ethiopia and east to China. Clearly given that its mating is in December and the birth is 6 months later, this would result in the majority of births in May. So the weaning would end in August-September.
Here are the geographical locations where we can find the capra ibex according to several sources
Alpine ibex, Capra ibex, are found in central Europe south to northern Ethiopia and east to Central China.
http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Capra_ibex.htmlMontane pastures at an altitude of 1,600-3,200 m / 5,100-10,200 ft in the Alps.
http//www.ultimateungulate.com/Images/Capra_ibex/C_ibex_map.gif
http//www.ultimateungulate.com/Artiodactyla/Capra_ibex.htmlAustria France Germany Italy Switzerland
http//www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/42397/allAlpine meadows and slopes in the
Alps of Europe. Other races of the ibex
occur in deserts from Ethiopia to Saudi
Arabia, and mountain slopes from
Afghanistan and Russia to Mongolia.
http//www.winnipeg.ca/cms/ape/zoo/look_up/pdfs/Ibex_23.75x18.pdfFree-ranging populations in Italy, and also in Switzerland, Austria and adjacent parts of France, Germany, and Slovenia. Once again numerous in some areas, with the largest population in Switzerland.
http//www.wildsheep.org/sheep/capra/alpine_ibex.htmThe Alpine Ibex or Capra ibex (which is commonly called by its German name, steinbock) is the species of ibex that lives in the European Alps. Spain's Capra pyrenaica and North Africa's Capra nubiana are very close relatives of the Alpine Ibex but are generally regarded as separate species.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_IbexThe site http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu does not treat capra ibex and nubian ibex as different species. But, according to the above sources, it should be clear that the capra ibex is only to be found in Europe.
Furthermore, I don?t understand why, assuming the birth occur in May, one should wait June or July to restrict hunting.
It is because you need to understand that the issue is about the period when humans, as opposed to birth defects and infant diseases, are the greatest threat to animals.
Your suggestion to start the hunting restriction in March, when most of those animals haven't even been born yet doesn't make any sense. Even in April and May, the newly born animals are far more likely to die naturally from disease and birth defects than from humans (due to the natural "bathtub" mortality distribution). This is especially true given the fact that in those first few weeks they don't venture far and hence are less likely to come in contact with humans or have their trail picked up by hunting dogs.
There are also other factors that further confirm a summer hunting restriction. Wildlife mortality rate follows a kind of "bath tub" curve, where you naturally get high mortality at the beginning and at the end and a lower stable mortality rate in between. In the first few weeks after birth many of the weakest newborn will naturally die without any human influence due to birth defects, disease, etc. The issue is how to protect the remaining newborn population from decimation by humans.
Could you back that ?This is a well known fact. For example, you can see
Sharayu Paranjpe; M. B. Rajarshi, "Modelling Non-Monotonic Survivorship Data With Bathtub Distributions", Ecology, Vol. 67, No. 6. (Dec., 1986), pp. 1693-1695.
Here is an excerpt
"For individuals of a biological population, when followed from actual birth to death, a bathtub hazard function is often most appropriate. In the initial phase of life, deaths result primarily from hereditary defects, genetic disorders, infant diseases, and hostile environments."
OK, thanks for the information.
The question is now on which criteria is a hunting restriction set ?
Is it to protect the animals when they come to birth? Is it to protect them in the weaning period ? Is it to protect them when they are weak due to heat ? Is the bathtub distribution a criteria ?Do you have something to prove that the bathtub distribution is a criteria ? I mean do you have a document about hunting regulations which states that the hunting restriction period of an animal does not begin when the animal comes to birth, but a few weeks later, due to the bathtub distribution ?
Here is what I have found on this topic
Seasons are set so as not to disturb the reproduction of a species. Ring-necked pheasants and waterfowl are not hunted during the nesting season. Trappers usually are not allowed to trap furbearers (e.g., beavers) when they have dependent young.
http//www.iowadnr.gov/education/wldmang.htmlYour suggestion to resume hunting in the summer, as opposed to in the fall, also doesn't make any sense and contradicts the vast majority of scientific-based hunting restrictions in the world. Usually, it is the fall when most hunting is resumed, not the summer.
Could you provide your sources ?
In the deserts of Arabia, where the rainy season is in the spring and fall, the situation would be far worse in the summer when it is very dry and animals have to travel far to find water. Often this very same scarce water is used by humans. So the likelihood of contact with animals that are already exhausted from the heat and thirst greatly increases. Animals that are too tired to run and that will risk coming in close proximity with humans so that they can drink and forage for food are an easy catch.
Encounters with such easy to catch animals are far more likely to occur in the summer than in the spring.
So according to you, the main criterion for a hunting restriction is to protect the animals in the hottest season, not to protect them during their reproduction and weaning period.
Anyway, the wild animals can go in the drinking places in the night.
You should also note that the hunted animals have also natural predators. So, these animals should be adapted to the life in semi-desertic places.Gazelles seem to be well adapted physiologically to live in harsh desert extremes. They can go without water for long periods of time and find succulent plants and dew drops an adequate source of water.
http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Gazella_gazella.htmlActivity patterns are determined by the severity of the climate. In hot summers these gazelles are mostly active at dawn and dusk. In milder temperatures they can be active all day. They may also become nocturnal when under predation pressure from diurnal predators.
http//animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Gazella_dorcas.htmlEasy to catch animals is the test talked about in 594.
005.094
YUSUFALI O ye who believe! Allah doth but make a trial of you in a little matter of game well within reach of your hands and your lances, that He may test who feareth him unseen any who transgress thereafter, will have a grievous penalty.I don?t agree.
You are saying that these animals are easy to catch because the hunters have run after the preys till exhaustion.
This kind of hunting is called persistence hunting.
Here is how it works in south Africa
During the persistence hunt an antelope, such as a kudu, is not shot or speared from a distance, but simply run down in the midday heat. Depending on the specific conditions, hunters of the central Kalahari will chase a kudu for about two to five hours over 25 to 35 km in temperatures of about 40 to 42?C. The hunter chases the kudu, which then runs away out of sight. By tracking it down at a fast running pace the hunter catches up with it before it has had enough time to rest in the shade. The animal is repeatedly chased and tracked down until it is too exhausted to continue running. The hunter then kills it at close range with a spear.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_huntingSo, as you can see, you need to run deliberately after the animals during at least 2 hours, whereas the verse doesn?t talk about this deliberate effort.
On the contrary, the verse is about animals that could be, at some time, easy to catch.These easy to catch animals are presumably jerboas, hyraxes or bustards people could come across unexpectedly during their daily activities or throughout their war expeditions.
Also, in the first couple of weeks or so after birth, the newborn and the mother rarely venture out too far from their "home". It is only when they have grown enough to be able to walk for a significant distance that they can venture far and their likelihood of coming in contact with humans greatly increases.
Really ?
Nubian ibex (Capra nubiana) A day after parturition, the young are able to walk on the rock cliffs following their mothers.
Mountain gazelle (Gazella gazella) Birth takes place in isolation and the precocial young can stand and walk shortly after birth.
Dorcas gazelle (Gazella dorcas) Young spend the majority of their first two weeks curled up in the shade. Afterwards they will follow the mother around looking for solid food.
Goitered gazelle (Gazella subgutturosa) young lie camouflaged away from their mothers for the first 2 weeks, gaining strength and stability on their wobbly legs.
Oryx Like all hoofed animals, the young are able to get up and follow their mothers when they are just one hour old! (http//www.sandiegozoo.org/animalbytes/t-oryx.html)Yes "really", even according to your own quotes above!
It doesn't matter if they are able to walk. What matters is if they are able to venture out far because then the likelihood of them coming in contact with humans or the Saluki picking up their trail greatly increases.
Once they are able to walk, they can go wherever their mother goes. And I don?t see why they would be more threatened far from their birth place than near it.
Please also note that, given the way they may have been hunted with the help of saluki dogs and falcons, the young animals may have been endangered wherever they were.
No, the Saluki needs to pick the trail of the animal to find it. Thus, the farther the animal travels, the more likely their trail will be sniffed by the Saluki. Also, the falcons are less likely to spot a hiding animal than to spot an animal traveling far in the open desert.
These animals don?t use to hide themselves in caverns, like human do? And when they are on the rocks of a mountain, the falcon will easily find them.
At one time, the Saluki was carried on camel or horseback to keep him fresh for the chase. Arab hunters, on their mounts with a hawk on their wrist, and a saluki up before them, would go into the desert to hunt. At the selected area, the hawks would be sent out questing for game. When the hawks found a herd of gazelle or oryx, they would circle high in the sky above the herd. The watching salukis were then freed and would race toward the location of the circling hawk, often miles from their starting position, while the hunters followed on their fleet horses or camels. The salukis would then single out their target and the chase would begin. Sometimes the chase was short and fast; but at other times, the chase lasted for many miles, testing the stamina and heart of the Salukis.
Once the prey was caught, it was brought down by a firm grip on the animal's throat by the strong jaws of the saluki. http//salukiho.tripod.com/hunting.htmlWhy would the Saluki need to be carried to be kept fresh? Because this was clearly done during a time of the year when it is hot and heat exhaustion would be a factor in exhausting the Saluki even if it was just simply walking and not even running.
Maybe because the saluki gets easily overheated.
The main thing is that you don't want a woolly undercoat that will insulate the dog. A primary problem coursing dogs have is overheating in warm places. Most of the dogs that you see pulling up are not doing so just because they are tired, they are doing so because they are going to die of heat stroke if they don't stop. Their temperature is going up. Dogs get rid of heat largely through respiration, but also from the skin. When they are running, extra blood flow is directed to the muscles, and some is also shunted to the skin to get rid of heat. This raises skin temperature so that heat can be lost by radiation and convection. Sighthounds, in general, and particularly Salukis, have very thin skin, so the heat can get from the muscles out. The important thing about the skin is that it be a good heat transfer agent. If you were breeding Salukis with this in mind, you would look at the skin and see how well vascularized it was Nobody, including me, has done that. It has been done in horses. Of course, horses have a greater problem with overheating than Salukis because of their unfavorable surface-volume ratio. A horse that is twice as tall has four times the surface area, but it has eight times the mass producing heat, so it's twice as hard for it to rid itself of heat. That same relationship holds for dogs ? big dogs get overheated more easily than little ones. If you are running Salukis in the desert in the daytime you would want them to be small. The big ones will die. In mixed hunts in Merced, I have seen several Greyhounds die of heat stroke; very few Salukis do. The reason for that is, with analogy to a car, a Greyhound has a much bigger engine than a Saluki, but the same cooling system. It goes faster but doesn't go as far because it overheats. Salukis can keep going because they are not producing heat quite as fast and they can get rid of it.
http//saluqi.home.netcom.com/belkin.htmSo, it would have been dangerous for the dogs to make them hunt in the warmest days of the year.
Interestingly, if you look in Classical Arabic dictionaries under "ramad", you will see "ramadan" and you will also see "taramad" as one of the derivatives. The word "taramad" describes a method of hunting that the Arabs used during the hottest time of the year. The method doesn't require any skill or tools. All that it requires are well fed and hydrated horses. Using this method, all that the hunter has to do is to chase the prey in the heat until it falls down by itself from heat exhaustion. Of course, the first animals that would fall down to this inhumane hunting method are the young who are not as strong as adult animals. Of course, the name of this hunting method is linked to "ramadan" and its association with the hottest time of the year is very telling.
Very interesting, however, we learn in the Quran that the people used dogs and birds to hunt (), but there is no mention of horses.
Can you give evidence that this hunting method was really used at the time of the prophet ? There is no verse in the Quran condemning it.
What kind of animals could they catch with this method ?Of course, the chase can be done using horses, dogs or even camels. Remember that speed is not the factor here. The only factor is the exhaustion of the prey due to the extreme heat conditions and as a result it becomes an easy catch. This can only happen in the hottest time of the year and certainly not in the spring. Of course, any animal that gets exhausted from running in the heat can be caught using this method. 594 clearly talks about The God testing the adherence to the restriction with animals that are easy catch.
Peace,
Ayman
- There is no proof in the quran that horses or camels were used to hunt.
- The saluki dog would probably get quickly overheated in the warmest days
- The verse is not about preys exhausted after a long and hard chase.
Peace
-
Yes, it is March-May, you are right.
So, the weaning period should be between March and and June for the ones birthed in March.
And it would be May-August for the ones birthed in May.
So, the weaning period would be between March and August, with a peak in May and June.When we consider the natural bathtub mortality curve where the first 2-3 weeks or so after birth the main culprit for death are infant diseases and genetic defetcs and not human hunting, you would get a June-July peak where human hunters are the main threat to those animals.
OK, thanks for the information.
The question is now on which criteria is a hunting restriction set ?
Is it to protect the animals when they come to birth? Is it to protect them in the weaning period ? Is it to protect them when they are weak due to heat ? Is the bathtub distribution a criteria ?
Do you have something to prove that the bathtub distribution is a criteria ? I mean do you have a document about hunting regulations which states that the hunting restriction period of an animal does not begin when the animal comes to birth, but a few weeks later, due to the bathtub distribution ?Scientifically speaking, the criteria is to restrict hunting when human hunters are the biggest danger to animals.
Based on the great reading, the restriction is in the hottest time of the year. This happens to coincide with the above criteria.
Here is what I have found on this topic
Seasons are set so as not to disturb the reproduction of a species. Ring-necked pheasants and waterfowl are not hunted during the nesting season. Trappers usually are not allowed to trap furbearers (e.g., beavers) when they have dependent young.
http//www.iowadnr.gov/education/wldmang.htmlWhere I am, the majority of birds nest in the summer.
Your suggestion to resume hunting in the summer, as opposed to in the fall, also doesn't make any sense and contradicts the vast majority of scientific-based hunting restrictions in the world. Usually, it is the fall when most hunting is resumed, not the summer.
Could you provide your sources ?
I posted some sources for brother Layth in this post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?&topic=6238.msg98015#msg98015
So according to you, the main criterion for a hunting restriction is to protect the animals in the hottest season, not to protect them during their reproduction and weaning period.
For the majority of animals, the weaning period happens to overlap with the hottest time of the year.
Anyway, the wild animals can go in the drinking places in the night.
You should also note that the hunted animals have also natural predators. So, these animals should be adapted to the life in semi-desertic places.We are not concerned about natural predators. We are concerned about when human hunter would pose the biggest danger. Also, for species who are endangered, no time is a good time to hunt them. They should be protected all year round. This is just good common sense.
I don?t agree.
You are saying that these animals are easy to catch because the hunters have run after the preys till exhaustion.
This kind of hunting is called persistence hunting.
Here is how it works in south Africa
During the persistence hunt an antelope, such as a kudu, is not shot or speared from a distance, but simply run down in the midday heat. Depending on the specific conditions, hunters of the central Kalahari will chase a kudu for about two to five hours over 25 to 35 km in temperatures of about 40 to 42?C. The hunter chases the kudu, which then runs away out of sight. By tracking it down at a fast running pace the hunter catches up with it before it has had enough time to rest in the shade. The animal is repeatedly chased and tracked down until it is too exhausted to continue running. The hunter then kills it at close range with a spear.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting
So, as you can see, you need to run deliberately after the animals during at least 2 hours, whereas the verse doesn?t talk about this deliberate effort.
On the contrary, the verse is about animals that could be, at some time, easy to catch.
These easy to catch animals are presumably jerboas, hyraxes or bustards people could come across unexpectedly during their daily activities or throughout their war expeditions.The passage says that they are easy to catch with your HANDS and spears. Have you ever tried to catch a wild animal with your hands? Try it and you will know what I mean.
The only way you can catch a wild animal EASILY with your HANDS is if it is sick, dying, or exhausted. If you know of other ways, please share. Young animals are especially vulnerable because they have less stamina than mature ones and are inexperienced so they easily corner themselves.
Once they are able to walk, they can go wherever their mother goes. And I don?t see why they would be more threatened far from their birth place than near it.
The more they travel, the more trails they leave and the more the chance of the trail being picked up by hunting dogs. Also, the more they travel the more the chance of crossing the paths of humans.
No, the Saluki needs to pick the trail of the animal to find it. Thus, the farther the animal travels, the more likely their trail will be sniffed by the Saluki. Also, the falcons are less likely to spot a hiding animal than to spot an animal traveling far in the open desert.
These animals don?t use to hide themselves in caverns, like human do? And when they are on the rocks of a mountain, the falcon will easily find them.
I am not going to waste time arguing about things that neither you or me have experience with. I certainly never hunted using falcons and I think I can safely guess neither did you. The only statistical fact we know is that the further one travels, the more trail he leaves and the likelihood of the trail getting picked up is higher and also the likelihood of crossing path with humans becomes higher. I also know from first hand experience that I see baby animals in my backyard in the summer and not in the spring.
Maybe because the saluki gets easily overheated.
Of course, horses have a greater problem with overheating than Salukis because of their unfavorable surface-volume ratio. A horse that is twice as tall has four times the surface area, but it has eight times the mass producing heat, so it's twice as hard for it to rid itself of heat. ... In mixed hunts in Merced, I have seen several Greyhounds die of heat stroke; very few Salukis do. ... Salukis can keep going because they are not producing heat quite as fast and they can get rid of it.
So, it would have been dangerous for the dogs to make them hunt in the warmest days of the year.
See above.
Also, see Al-Mohit Classical Arabic Lexicon that describes "taramad" (a derivitave of "ramad" as hunting in the hottest time of the year by causing the prey to be heat-exhausted.
- There is no proof in the quran that horses or camels were used to hunt.
There is no need to prove that Range Rovers and Land Cuisers are now used for hunting. There are enough proofs about the timing of the scorching full-moon. There are enough proofs about hunting being resumed scientifically in the fall and not in the summer. My first hand experience with wild animals confirms all that. This is all I need. If this is not enough for you then I guess we have to agree to disagree or you can go on a field trip to study wild animals and gain some first hand experience.
- The saluki dog would probably get quickly overheated in the warmest days
- The verse is not about preys exhausted after a long and hard chase.
In the hottest time of the year it doesn't have to be a long or hard chase, especially if the prey is already thirsty and dehydrated. This is even more so for young animals who lack stamina and experience. Even someone who never hunted before and without a Suluki or anything can probably easily catch a young animal by hand if it wanders close to humand and is exhausted on a hot day and gets scared and corners itself. The summer is when humans are most likely to encounter young animals that are easy to catch. If you disagree then tell us how else you can easily catch a wild animal with your hands.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Yes, it is March-May, you are right.
So, the weaning period should be between March and and June for the ones birthed in March.
And it would be May-August for the ones birthed in May.
So, the weaning period would be between March and August, with a peak in May and June.When we consider the natural bathtub mortality curve where the first 2-3 weeks or so after birth the main culprit for death are infant diseases and genetic defetcs and not human hunting, you would get a June-July peak where human hunters are the main threat to those animals.
Let?s sum up
Arabian oryx (Oryx leucoryx) => Births generally between October and may. Weaning 4.5 months.
Nubian ibex (Capra nubiana) => Births in March. Weaning 3 months.
Mountain gazelle (Gazella gazella) => Births between April and May. Weaning 3 months.
Dorcas gazelle (Gazella dorcas) => Births between March and May. Weaning 3 months.
Goitered gazelle (Gazella subgutturosa) => Births between April and May. Weaning 4-5 months.Now, here is what you wrote
We already determined that the first full-moon after the summer solstice (the full-moon of "ramadhan" is the first restricted full-moon. Hence, counting four full-moons beginning with the first full-moon after the summer solstice would give us the restricted four full-moons and as usual, the crescent times the end of the period (a period of about 90+10 100 days). The solstice happens towards the later part of June (June 22 or so). The full-moon of scorching heat would be 0-30 days after that. Thus, the start of the restricted full-moons would be on average around the beginning of the second week of July and would end around the third week in October (this is average but it could be sooner or as late as end of October depending on when the full-moon occurred after the summer solstice). So the restriction full-moons cover the time from about mid summer to mid fall. The timing of the restriction is significant, especially given that the restriction is on hunting wild-life. Interestingly, the restriction doesn't cover domesticated livestock animals (see 51). Why is that? The answer may be because summer is the time when most wild animals and even wild birds give birth. Why is that? The answer may be because summer is the time when most wild animals and even wild birds give birth. By killing a wild female animal, you are not only killing it but you would also be inadvertently killing all its new-born off-spring who cannot feed and fend for themselves. Also, finding the new-born animals gives the hunter an unfair advantage because the mother is sometimes reluctant to leave them or the hunter can just wait close by until the mother comes back for them and easily bring her down. On the other hand, when a mother of a domesticated livestock animal is killed, her new-born can be easily cared for by people and they will survive fine.
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htmObviously, your assertion ?The answer may be because summer is the time when most wild animals and even wild birds give birth.? is wrong.
According to your opinion, the 4 months restricted period would begin between June 22 and July 21.
So, even if we give credit to the bathtub delay assumption, this period would not be appropriate for the protection of the wild animals during their weaning period.OK, thanks for the information.
The question is now on which criteria is a hunting restriction set ?
Is it to protect the animals when they come to birth? Is it to protect them in the weaning period ? Is it to protect them when they are weak due to heat ? Is the bathtub distribution a criteria ?
Do you have something to prove that the bathtub distribution is a criteria ? I mean do you have a document about hunting regulations which states that the hunting restriction period of an animal does not begin when the animal comes to birth, but a few weeks later, due to the bathtub distribution ?Scientifically speaking, the criteria is to restrict hunting when human hunters are the biggest danger to animals.
Could you provide your sources for that ?
My opinion would be that the best period for a hunting restriction is the birth and weaning period of the animals. Because, when you kill a young animal, you lose the opportunity of killing it when he is mature, with much flesh on it.
Based on the great reading, the restriction is in the hottest time of the year. This happens to coincide with the above criteria.
First, I would not say it is based on the Quran ; I would rather say it is based on your personal understanding of it.
Second, it is based on the assumption that the hunters are a bigger danger to the animals in the summer that in any other season.
Please remember that, according to your theory, hunting could be possible till July 21 in some years.Here is what I have found on this topic
Seasons are set so as not to disturb the reproduction of a species. Ring-necked pheasants and waterfowl are not hunted during the nesting season. Trappers usually are not allowed to trap furbearers (e.g., beavers) when they have dependent young.
http//www.iowadnr.gov/education/wldmang.htmlWhere I am, the majority of birds nest in the summer.
This comment is irrelevant.
Your suggestion to resume hunting in the summer, as opposed to in the fall, also doesn't make any sense and contradicts the vast majority of scientific-based hunting restrictions in the world. Usually, it is the fall when most hunting is resumed, not the summer.
Could you provide your sources ?
I posted some sources for brother Layth in this post
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?&topic=6238.msg98015#msg98015
You cannot compare.
In the Quran, the hunting season last more than 8 (lunar) months, whereas in North America today, it lasts only a few weeks.Anyway, the wild animals can go in the drinking places in the night.
You should also note that the hunted animals have also natural predators. So, these animals should be adapted to the life in semi-desertic places.We are not concerned about natural predators. We are concerned about when human hunter would pose the biggest danger. Also, for species who are endangered, no time is a good time to hunt them. They should be protected all year round. This is just good common sense.
You have not got my point.
You were saying that, in Summer, the wild animals get easily exhausted, hence easy to catch.
My reply was that, were it the case, these animals would have disappeared of these hot place because of their predators.An animal leaving in hot places is necessarily adapted to it. It should not get easily exhausted in summer.
I don?t agree.
You are saying that these animals are easy to catch because the hunters have run after the preys till exhaustion.
This kind of hunting is called persistence hunting.
Here is how it works in south Africa
During the persistence hunt an antelope, such as a kudu, is not shot or speared from a distance, but simply run down in the midday heat. Depending on the specific conditions, hunters of the central Kalahari will chase a kudu for about two to five hours over 25 to 35 km in temperatures of about 40 to 42?C. The hunter chases the kudu, which then runs away out of sight. By tracking it down at a fast running pace the hunter catches up with it before it has had enough time to rest in the shade. The animal is repeatedly chased and tracked down until it is too exhausted to continue running. The hunter then kills it at close range with a spear.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting
So, as you can see, you need to run deliberately after the animals during at least 2 hours, whereas the verse doesn?t talk about this deliberate effort.
On the contrary, the verse is about animals that could be, at some time, easy to catch.
These easy to catch animals are presumably jerboas, hyraxes or bustards people could come across unexpectedly during their daily activities or throughout their war expeditions.The passage says that they are easy to catch with your HANDS and spears. Have you ever tried to catch a wild animal with your hands? Try it and you will know what I mean.
The only way you can catch a wild animal EASILY with your HANDS is if it is sick, dying, or exhausted. If you know of other ways, please share. Young animals are especially vulnerable because they have less stamina than mature ones and are inexperienced so they easily corner themselves.
You have answered your own question.
A young animal can get easily cornered, due to his lack of experience.
So, the most likely period where animals can be easy to catch would be the period when they are young, i.e. spring.Once they are able to walk, they can go wherever their mother goes. And I don?t see why they would be more threatened far from their birth place than near it.
The more they travel, the more trails they leave and the more the chance of the trail being picked up by hunting dogs. Also, the more they travel the more the chance of crossing the paths of humans.
I don?t think so.
Remember the way of hunting with the falcons.
The salukis do not catch the game by picking up their trails. First, the falcons find the game, and second, the salukis catch it by running after it.
So, the wild animals will be caught if they are at the wrong place at the wrong time.In any case, since the salukis can get easily overheated in the hottest days, I think there were nearly no hunting in summer.
Maybe because the saluki gets easily overheated.
Of course, horses have a greater problem with overheating than Salukis because of their unfavorable surface-volume ratio. A horse that is twice as tall has four times the surface area, but it has eight times the mass producing heat, so it's twice as hard for it to rid itself of heat. ... In mixed hunts in Merced, I have seen several Greyhounds die of heat stroke; very few Salukis do. ... Salukis can keep going because they are not producing heat quite as fast and they can get rid of it.
So, it would have been dangerous for the dogs to make them hunt in the warmest days of the year.
See above.
See below
Exercising in hot weather can cause potentially fatal heatstroke in dogs?even in salukis. The saluki?s tendency to run at high speed causes a rapid rise in body temperature. In cold weather this excess heat is rapidly dissipated, but in Florida?s hot, humid weather it is not. Signs of distress include rapid panting, abundant and thick saliva, reddened mucous membranes, and swollen tongue. The dog will often become agitated, as though seeking escape from the discomfort of overheating. If the temperature is not brought down immediately, breathing becomes labored and loud, cerebral edema may develop, the dog may have convulsions, go into a stupor or coma, and die.
http//www.floridasaluki.org/health_heatstroke.htmlPeace