You Have Been Warned
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Peace Danish,
By One Reality I meant The God, and in that case, yes, we should submit to The God and live our lives in accordance to what it dictates.
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Hi brother,
My analogies are failing as you are applying them to situations that the analogy was not meant to explain
but does science know who or what GOD is.
Who's god?
That's the reason I tried to define god scientifically as the sustainer of the laws. As far as I know, even science agrees that there is "something" sustaining the laws, maybe it's energy, which they define as "something that makes something happen". So let's use the word "energy" instead. Since energy is something that makes something happen somehow, energy is 'all-mighty'. Wont you say?
Would you say that energy is anyless 'all-mighty' because it takes use of gravity to draw to bodies together?
See, here you can take a mental note. When I said "Gravity pulls the apple down to the ground", you somehow got the idea that I'm confining my self to the earth and it's gravitiational pull. Isn't that why you said
Assuming that gravity was actually "GOD", then the apple can be taken out of gavity (into space) and defeat "GOD's" strength to pull it back.And, even though I made it clear that "Lets say that God is simply the sustainer of the laws of the universe", you read me as if I limited god to one law which is gravity. Why?
Even if that apple is pulled out of earths gravity, it's still under the gravitational pull of some other heavenly body. And let's not forget the gravitational forces working within it to keep the mass of the apple together.
Hehe, maybe some gravitational forces are pulling us away from the point
I do not know why god has chosen to split his tasks among "angels", but then again I don't know why the universe is split up in different types of atoms either
I agree with Ahmed on this, we cannot know 'why', but we have a better chance at understanding 'how'.
Nadeem
Ok, my apologies for that 'mental note'. But Nadeem, I'm afraid that you are alluding, assuming and mixing too many things up hither and thither; bomb, gravitational pull, sustainer, energy, atoms, etc., etc.
Here is a recapulation of my three concerns put together from this very thread alone
- Creating angels as body guards or helpers, undermines Allah's attributable strengths, does it not?
- Was it Isaa who said the above verse (6114) or was it someone (who wrote this down) said that Muhammad said that Gabriel said that Allah said that Isaa said?
- If all of us are part of ONE REALITY, then we should submit to REALITY and live our lives in accordance to what it dictates, no? Aren't all human affairs just that?
Lets not get ourselves entangled and carried away by illogical viewpoints and get to the bottom of it by logical, historical, scientific and realistic deductions. Giving a scientific view of a "sustainer" doesn't prove anything about the "sustainer" itself. It is rather a philosophical or a mystical one.
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DanishWas it Isaa who said the above verse or was it someone (who wrote this down) said that Muhammad said that Gabriel said that Allah said that Isaa said?
I believe Isa said it. Some people may not so lets take AQ phenomenologically. Take this an indication of the mind of the author of AQ, if you like.
However, you take it, AQ has defined what 'helping God' means. Take it at that.
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Peace Danish,
By One Reality I meant The God, and in that case, yes, we should submit to The God and live our lives in accordance to what it dictates.
You said "all of us are part of ONE REALITY. Are we all part of "The God (s)" too? Why this dramatic change or does it mean the same thing, i.e. ONE REALITY - ONE GOD?
I must leave now and shall be back later. In the meantime, please concentrate on my three concerns above. Thanks.
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Peace
- If all of us are part of ONE REALITY, then we should submit to REALITY and live our lives in accordance to what it dictates, no? Aren't all human affairs just that?
What do you mean by what it dictates? I'm thinking that if you do for the good it is the good you shall inherit and if you do for the bad it is the bad you shall inherit.
You see, I believe what we percieve as reality may be a little contradictory to our perceptions because we can do that which is bad and that which is good even though there is this all-powerful Architect.
In response to your second point, I think we humans may live in accordance with any of the rules to the point of the restrictions our goings on.
Joe
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DanishWas it Isaa who said the above verse or was it someone (who wrote this down) said that Muhammad said that Gabriel said that Allah said that Isaa said?
I believe Isa said it.
Was Isa present during Muhammad's time to say it?
Take this an indication of the mind of the author of AQ, if you like.
Mind of which author?
However, you take it, AQ has defined what 'helping God' means. Take it at that.
'helping God'....Does God need help?
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Danish Was Isa present during Muhammad's time to say it?
No, he wasn't.
Mind of which author?
Read carefully, the author of AQ.
'helping God'....Does God need help?
Once again, please read the 61/14 where I showed you the explanation of 61/14. Please either comment or refute that and not repeat yourself.
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Danish Was Isa present during Muhammad's time to say it?
No, he wasn't.
Then how did he say it?
Mind of which author?
Read carefully, the author of AQ.
I asked you a simple question "mind of which author"?
'helping God'....Does God need help?
Once again, please read the 61/14 where I showed you the explanation of 61/14. Please either comment or refute that and not repeat yourself.
Again, I am asking YOU a simple question "Does God need help?" Yes or no? Either way, please explain? I am not interested in what the disciples of Jesus said.
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Peace Danish, all,
I think your question(1) is fundamentally important.
- Creating angels as body guards or helpers, undermines Allah's attributable strengths, does it not?
I agree. The creation of beings as assistants certainly does undermine the creator's strengths - similar to an engineer designing 50 robots to do the jobs of 50 people. The engineer himself can do each job, but can not do 50 at once with the same efficiency.
This is just one of many problems I've personally encountered with the "God is out there" understanding.
But, this can be reconciled with the understanding that all of life exists as one energy. Then the malaikat are not seperate beings but intricate parts of the consciousness of the individual and the collective. In short, your thoughts and actions are not recorded by invisible beings writing invisible text in an invisible book, but your thoughts and actions make permanent imprints on the field of energy - and thus, everything is recorded.
And in this recording, it is not necessarily a bulleted list of good vs. bad deeds and thoughts, but the slow and steady process of shaping the soul into whatever it is to become. The recording is "seen" by what we have manifested within ourselves.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace All,
Ah, the arrogance, the feeling of might and importance, imagining or believing even that we are at the same level of our Creator. So much so that we know what He does and even why.
366 Here you have debated in what you knew; so why then do you debate in what you do not know? God knows while you do not know.
4057 The creation of the heavens and the Earth is greater than the creation of mankind, but most of mankind do not know.
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DanishThen how did he say it?
No, its my turn to ask
How is the fear of Allah realistically, logically and scientifically incorrect?Before you say 'off-topic', kindly note that your question is off-topic as well but I have answered.
Answer this and I will answer.
I asked you a simple question "mind of which author"?
And I answered you simply. If you don't accept it, kindly rephrase.
Again, I am asking YOU a simple question "Does God need help?" Yes or no? Either way, please explain? I am not interested in what the disciples of Jesus said.
Briefly, God doesn't need help but as Isa explained, the help is 'ilaa Allah' towards Allah which I understand to mean in aid of God's Will in the Universe.
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Dear Bro Ahmed...
Salam and best salutations
I am not sure about the Imam Al-Mehdi...
Now I have this extra thing to say about the abuse of Fear used by some groups (I was a victim).
Some so-called brothers use the concept of fear to exploit their brothers, as they quote that the ones in charge call the shots within a group, if you do not do what they say, this means you do not fear them, and since you do not fear them that means you do not fear Allah, and before you know it, you become their puppets, and in the worst case they make a suicide bomber out of you... So this is why I am reluctant to see the Fear of Allah in this distorted light...
Kind blessings
NoblePeace bro
I agree with you that many Muslims abuse that fear, their problem is simply they are considering it like fearing other humans and this where things will go wrong when they think of Allah sort of like a human,I also thought about the difference between me and you regarding the discussion we had, as far as I believe I didn't come to the religion due to fear, and now I'm horrified of Allah, possibly the other way around to your case, I actually discovered all these horrible hell descriptions after I came to this religion, for me the common knowledge was just the hell fire, for me to be burned with 100C fire is as painful as to be burned with 1000C fire therefore this horible descriptions as far as I see it is nothing but total honesty from our God, I'm sure He knows that 100C will hurt us bad so He created this hell fire to make the people who donlt believe in Him fear His punishment so they have no choice but to believe, those who have no choice are described by Allah "Ulu Al Albaab", i.e. "The ones who have brains", the other ones who don't fear Allah and His hell, DESPITE He described it to them in great details must earn the title arrogant fair and square, hence they will earn the hell punsishment fair and square and they will even convict themselves thinking that this may be a way out
Take care bro
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Hello Ahmed,
I guess I didn't make myself clear or you didn't catch my point. Let me put it in another perspective
Creating angels as body guards or helpers, undermines Allah's attributable strengths, does it not?
Hi Danish
Look bro you are insisting to ask the same silly question, what makes me wonder that you say you follow the Quran , and if you honestly do then you should see the clear answer in there, but let me say this first, the Malaika are called Malaika, it is you who is calling them helpers, possibly to falsely give the implication that their Creator needs their help, Allah clearly told us that He does not get tired hence He does not need helpers
And certainly We created the heavens and the earth and what is between them in six periods and there touched Us not any fatigue.
(3
From the above it will be ridiculous to suggest that the angels are there to help Allah, why He created them, again, I don?t know and no one knows EXCEPT Allah, I can suggest many conjectures but again I will avoid doing as such because simply Allah told me two times in the Quran that ?He does what He wants?
Doer (without let) of all that He intends.
(16)
The above was repeated in 11107
As you can see the verb "to do" was used in a surety format ? ?, the verb ?to do? itself was stated without any change in another 2 locations to tell us again and again that Allah does what He wants
Surely Allah will cause those who believe and do good deeds to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, surely Allah does what He pleases.
(14)
The above was repeated in 2253
Therefore mate, Allah has answered your silly question 4 times THAT HE DOES WHAT HE WANTS, so why the hell you think that you are cornering us or something by that silly question?, your insistence on the question only indicates your lack of knowledge about your God, that?s all bro, either face it and change it or live with it but please don?t give us too much headache if you live with it
Salam
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Peace Zein,
You stated
Ah, the arrogance, the feeling of might and importance, imagining or believing even that we are at the same level of our Creator. So much so that we know what He does and even why.
Doesn't 3918 recommend listening to all views and following what is best? Or should we not think about what's been revealed to us?
I think these fundamental questions are crucial to our individual understandings, as, the big picture is what's being addressed. And so often, rather than look at our own view of the big picture with the possibility of refinement, we resort to "because God said so", which is no better, in my opinion, than any religion or sect on the planet.
That being said, if I came off as arrogant or exhibiting "the feeling of might and importance", then I apologize. It is the conviction I have in my current position which has revealed itself in my words. But, I thank you for the reminder of the importance of humility, and as always, I reserve the right to remain open to new and better understandings.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
Doesn't 3918 recommend listening to all views and following what is best? Or should we not think about what's been revealed to us?
I think these fundamental questions are crucial to our individual understandings, as, the big picture is what's being addressed. And so often, rather than look at our own view of the big picture with the possibility of refinement, we resort to "because God said so", which is no better, in my opinion, than any religion or sect on the planet.
I agree with you on the verse and what you said above, but at the same time, I don't think my statement is in contradiction with these. Just to clarify, I was saying this of all the statements in this thread claiming this is the 'why' God said this and God does that, or that God "needs" helpers. The truth is none of us know and none of us will ever know the why. We do know, however, that God does not "need", not from us, not from angels. But we tend to bring God down to our level, so to speak, to fathom Him. Reminds me of the biblical verse, where God was walking around in heaven looking for Adam.That being said, if I came off as arrogant or exhibiting "the feeling of might and importance", then I apologize.
No you didn't, so take that apology back! >Dpeace
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Bro Ahmed, salam alaikum
Was off for a few days
Not on holidays yet (
Please stop wasting your time with Danish, you made your "balagh", and that is far more than enough...
There are more people in need of guidance and advice and who listen and they have priority...
Thank you for your insights, and comments...
Peace
Noble
PS Re. Subject of fear of Allah, I remember nice hadith (probably israeliates) about a rich man who asked that when he died, he should be cremated and his ashes scattered across the sea so that Allah will not catch him because he was so scared of meeting Him out of fear. On that account, Allah entered him Paradise because his fear was really genuine. Maybe just a story, but it kind of illustrates the points you make... -
Pecae Noble
You have been missed bro
Yeh man i know that hadith very well, sort of conflict feelings regading it
Take care bro
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Peace Danish, all,
I think your question(1) is fundamentally important.
- Creating angels as body guards or helpers, undermines Allah's attributable strengths, does it not?
I agree. The creation of beings as assistants certainly does undermine the creator's strengths - similar to an engineer designing 50 robots to do the jobs of 50 people. The engineer himself can do each job, but can not do 50 at once with the same efficiency.
This is just one of many problems I've personally encountered with the "God is out there" understanding.
But, this can be reconciled with the understanding that all of life exists as one energy. Then the malaikat are not seperate beings but intricate parts of the consciousness of the individual and the collective. In short, your thoughts and actions are not recorded by invisible beings writing invisible text in an invisible book, but your thoughts and actions make permanent imprints on the field of energy - and thus, everything is recorded.
And in this recording, it is not necessarily a bulleted list of good vs. bad deeds and thoughts, but the slow and steady process of shaping the soul into whatever it is to become. The recording is "seen" by what we have manifested within ourselves.
Peace,
TayPeace,
One important note, malikah doesn't mean the mythical angels. Malikah means someone/thing in control/authority/power/guardianship/responsibility. And it's meaning is determined by it's context. It can mean power of nature, or for example 'strong warriors' as in the verse with '3000 malikah' which refers to ones in authority of the battle, thus strong warriors and so every meaning of the word can be rendered in every verse it is used. This will clear up some contradictions the traditional mythical approach will give.