i may leave islam for good
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Peace "Danish",
Yes, in TODAY'S perspective, as mentioned earlier, the word "Allah" has been hijacked but relevant to ancient times, the "Allah" was the most powerful IDOL of all idols including HIS daughters (Allat, Aluzzah and Almannat) among hundreds of other man-made idols and that is a FACT, which brings back my point that it cannot be the "Islam" that you profess.
JK- The most powerful idol meaning the supreme, the one, God, so He is. You can idolize GOD cant you. What you cant is idolize anything besides Him.
The mathematical pattern is nothing but a bogus invented numerology by a fake "sunni" messenger. Lets not mix up this discussion with bigotry and hypocritical data for now.
JK- This is absolutely wrong. The code-19 pattern is truly significant and ive shown this over and over again. Either you dont tend to read my posts or you dont ponder on those points i state in regards to the code. The code-19 is my primary basis for believing in the Quran. Ive analysed this code myself for years and found it always significant in every aspect. You need to be able to connect the dots but aparenty you dont care. If thats the case then theres nothing i can do. Ive presented my proof.
LOL, if you are not convinced that kaba refers to a stone building in Mecca, then who commanded you to face and circumvent it and why? How does your intentions of facing kaba, as you mentioned earlier, reflect your contradictory and hypocritical statement made earlier? Please exercise caution and reason in whatever you bring about and not just vent out thoughtlessly.
JK- You got it wrong. I said that im not convinced that the kaaba in mecca today is NOT the one the Quran refers to.
edit you are caught and exposed in your own web. ???
JK- You obviously misunderstood me. GOD Bless!
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Peace Zantetsuken,
1- Rashad certainly had some good points, but he wasn't that great of a person.
I'm not sure if God sends us messengers and prophets. I think everyone is born on this earth capable of becoming a messenger.
According to the quran, you have to verify everything. So everything Rashad said should've been verified by us before we followed it. We can take the good and leave out the bad.
And try looking at Islam not as a religion but a way of life or state of mind.2- The problem with the hadith is that they came centuries after the Quran was written. They came when the Quran's teachings were already distorted by pagan and persian influences. The Quran says we should uphold SALAT (not prayer) TWICE a day. At dawn and dusk.
As for "obey God and His messenger..." I don't think it is referring to one person. There were and and are going to be countless messengers. So we are to obey God and the we should obey the people who carry God's message (the truth). If we don't obey those people, we aren't really obeying God, are we?3- You are taking Islam as an organized religion. It's not. Islam is "doing good works." We don't need mosques, we don't need 1 superior interpretation (because if there is, people stop progressing, they think they know everything through this superior intepretation and no one questions it or looks beyond it.)
This forum is a battle of interpretations. But a lot of times, it's more of a discussion of interpretations. The Quran says we should look at all understandings and follow the best. And here you can see all different understandings and decide for yourself.4-You are a follower of God if you are a follower of truth. Truth is always from God. And we have to search for the truth. We are all agnostics, because we don't have any knowledge of God, only God's signs. God's signs are everywhere. You just have to look for them.
About evolution, I accept that theory as true.
Everything is compatible with Islam if you verify it to be true.BTW, you have already left Islam (the religion).
and where did you live in Saudi Arabia?1- Isn't there some verses that say 'we sent ..mohammed or so and so' ? Guess I kind of expect anything to be sent from Him to not leave so many flaws, including rashad
2- That's a very good point and argument using those verses, the problem is maybe I'm too gullible, I'll believe you for that, then I would read another person's argument that there are really 5 prayers, or 3 and it would like equally make sense to me, but contradicting to each other. And it's like I ask God for help to understand, and either he doesn't want to help, or he wants to give everyone a huge headache by explaining to them different, one has to do 3, the other 5.
3- I see that too, I used to wonder why arabs don't do alot of university research. I like reading here because most people try to reduce bias, or maybe its bias in every direction that it reaches equlibrium P
4- That's a good way to think about it, but then there's mr. einstein. Riyadh is my 2nd home, but almost everyone there would hate me if i told them how i feel about all this
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Peace,
I understand you. For one, you have to understand that we have a shadow of 1000 years on us. People have fixed the Quranic message, and didn't allow any freethinking. This movement is young, it is not new, as there have always been Quran upholders. But most people have a sunni background which influences their approaches tremendously. Rashad proclaimed himself a messenger based on a dream and some personal interpretations. And his approach to the Quran was still with a sunni-mind. He interpretated the word salat only from one sunni view, this is also with hajj and even seeing islam as a religion. This is not his fault. It takes years and years to loose the framework of your past which influences your thinking. Rashad didn't had enough time to go beyond the already estabilished ideas on salaat, hajj and islam as a whole. He approached them from a sunni-framework and showed the Quran is complete based on the verses. But the sunni-shadow was still clouding his vision. So he was still a sunni using the Quran alone. Thsi created a lot of contradictions, which resulted in ideas as that the 'rituals' as salaat and hajj were preserved outside of the Quran. When doing exstencive research on these, which Rashad didn't had time for, we see this cannot be so, as these were made rituals over time and the original purpose was lost. The code is inside the Quran, the problem is only that people can not seperate the discovery from the discoverer.
As for the differences in approach, like i said, most people are still shedding their sunni-layers. This cannot be done in 2 years, this can take lifetimes. Persian, Christian and Jewish theology have twisted arabic meanings and the high tolerance of the early islamic rulers give gateways for these twisted meanings. We are playing Indiana Jones now, looking for the lost meanings. And when some are found, they will not be accepted by everybody, as some are still wrapped up in many sunni-layers. Also the level of evolution of somebodies mind determines the insight on a subject. Some people have the old view of a god needing worship, demanding rituals which have no real purpose to bring humankind to a higher level. But are only there to 'please' him, so they can attain 'heaven' in the next life. Accepting 'miracles' while at the same time promoting science for proof of the Quran, while after some hard research, it can be shown that these are just mistranslations on subjects, started by christians and persians in the middle ages.
You ask a valed question, the only problem is, you ask it to soon. You demand consensus in a time where we are still in the first part of our Indiana Jones movie. Be more patient, and research more for yourself. Buy classic arabic dictionaries, buy books from psychologist Jung, read Parwez and Shabbir, and every time choose the most logical option for you on that moment. We are created to evolve to a higher being, evolution hasn't stopped, but instead of evolution of the body, it is evolution of the soul. Have patience and research more yourself, you will be surprised how logical it all becomes over time...PM every time you want.
Please read some of these books also, they can clear up your mind a bit
Start with this one
http//tolueislam.com/Parwez/ICR/ICR.htmAnd there are more of these, which are very important
http//tolueislam.com/Parwez/BA_Parwez.htmand his translation and books are also very important to get a clearer view
http//www.ourbeacon.com/7101.htmlAnd you can order a free dictionary of classic arabic to start with here, just answer the questions
www.laneslexicon.comPlease research yourself, take your time, we are only in the first 15 minutes of the movie....
nice point about the sunni thinking, I still have quite a bit. not sure if we have souls but you bet my next few years will have alot of research, and this website will stay on my favorties list.
im grateful for you all -
1- Isn't there some verses that say 'we sent ..mohammed or so and so' ? Guess I kind of expect anything to be sent from Him to not leave so many flaws, including rashad
2- That's a very good point and argument using those verses, the problem is maybe I'm too gullible, I'll believe you for that, then I would read another person's argument that there are really 5 prayers, or 3 and it would like equally make sense to me, but contradicting to each other. And it's like I ask God for help to understand, and either he doesn't want to help, or he wants to give everyone a huge headache by explaining to them different, one has to do 3, the other 5.
3- I see that too, I used to wonder why arabs don't do alot of university research. I like reading here because most people try to reduce bias, or maybe its bias in every direction that it reaches equlibrium Tongue
4- That's a good way to think about it, but then there's mr. einstein. Riyadh is my 2nd home, but almost everyone there would hate me if i told them how i feel about all this
peace Zantetsuken,
I have the same problem with which understanding to choose. Just follow the one that you think is best. Verify everything.
and what about Mr. Einstein?
I used to live in Saudi Arabia. In Buraidah. -
I have the same problem with which understanding to choose. Just follow the one that you think is best. Verify everything.
and what about Mr. Einstein?
I used to live in Saudi Arabia. In Buraidah.i meant him and most other scientists follow the truth but don't believe in a God -[
nice to finally meet a fellow saudi that isn't sunni, not anything against them, its just i couldn't imagine talking to a saudi about this without watching my mouth or offending him
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Peace Zantetsuken,
i meant him and most other scientists follow the truth but don't believe in a God
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. " -Albert Einstein
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I have the same problem with which understanding to choose. Just follow the one that you think is best. Verify everything.
and what about Mr. Einstein?
I used to live in Saudi Arabia. In Buraidah.i meant him and most other scientists follow the truth but don't believe in a God -[
nice to finally meet a fellow saudi that isn't sunni, not anything against them, its just i couldn't imagine talking to a saudi about this without watching my mouth or offending him
Peace,
I was about to say the same thing as Tay, Einstein certainly believed in God but his vision was formed through his understanding of the universe and not through the Jewish faith.
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"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind. " -Albert Einstein
A beautiful verse. Einstein disliked the Gods of religions and admired a cosmological one. He was certainly not a Muslim
Einstein
My first religious training of any kind was in the Catholic catechism.
and
I came - though the child of entirely irreligious (Jewish) parents - to a deep religiousness, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of twelve.As an adult, he called his religion a "cosmic religious sense".
In "The World As I See It" he wrote
You will hardly find one among the profounder sort of scientific minds without a peculiar religious feeling of his own. But it is different from the religion of the naive man.
For the latter God is a being from whose care one hopes to benefit and whose punishment one fears; a sublimation of a feeling similar to that of a child for its father, a being to whom one stands to some extent in a personal relation, however deeply it may be tinged with awe.
But the scientist is possessed by the sense of universal causation. The future, to him, is every whit as necessary and determined as the past. There is nothing divine about morality, it is a purely human affair. His religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.
In response to the telegrammed question of New York's Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein in 1929 "Do you believe in God? Stop. Answer paid 50 words."Einstein replied "I believe in Spinoza's God, Who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind." Spinoza was a pantheist.
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My bad Pheonix, I assumed you were Saudi.
Guess I don't know as much as I thought I did, now I see what Einstein meant when he said he doesn't believe in 'a personal god', thanks for clearing that up for me guys.
OpenMind, does it seem obvious that I have an agenda? Thanks for pointing that out, I honestly couldnt tell, looks like my emotions and assumptions got the best of me.
edit or were u talking to Danish, I really enjoyed his postAs for appreciating the universe and also the quran. Even though I like you guys' philosophical view on the quran more than the traditional way...I still find it hard to believe that mohammed understood the quran in this deep way but you don't find not even one hadith of mohammed explaining it this way (only hadiths explaining it the taliban way).
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peace Z
I think OpenMind was talking about Danish.
I don't think Muhammad understood the Koran, he wrote it. Actually, I doubt the name of the author was Muhammad.
That doesn't matter, though. What matters is that we know the Koran is Muhammad's words. The words were INSPIRED by God, NOT written by God.
So whatever Muhammad wanted us to know is written in that book. Anything else we add to it's message is just an addition. No one would write an incomplete book, or teach an incomplete teaching. -
salaam zantetsuken,
you have stated that you study are currently studying evolution. there is nothing wrong with that. what is wrong is that most of the scientific research are conducted by mankind! mankind are never free of errors! surely, the evidence do not lie! but remember it is just a theory, surely some part of it is surely true, but you have to take into account that scientific research on this topic is yet to be completed! so many things in this universe are interconnected that one thing leads or preceeds the other. for example studying the theory of evolution often leads to the study of the origin of the earth, origin of primates and so on...
technically, according to the outside world(except upholders of quran alone and 19-ers) once you have rejected ahadith, you have rejected islam! most of us in this fourm, at this stage upholds quran alone.(an assumption, not a fact) so technically, because we question the quran, we are not believers anymore, are we! if you reject islam, please do not feel ostracized by the "muslims" in reality or this site(at least not from me)
keep it real bro, peace, rifat
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peace Z
I don't think Muhammad understood the Koran, he wrote it. Actually, I doubt the name of the author was Muhammad.
That doesn't matter, though. What matters is that we know the Koran is Muhammad's words. The words were INSPIRED by God, NOT written by God.
So whatever Muhammad wanted us to know is written in that book. Anything else we add to it's message is just an addition. No one would write an incomplete book, or teach an incomplete teaching.whoa that hit me like an anvil. 'Mohammed' wrote it, didn't understand it, but his name wasn't really mohammed? So who was the guy who lived the life of the 'mohammed' of the hadiths? This is the first time i heard this, I didn't read the whole 'message book' from this website yet, would you provide a link to your belief on the subject of mohammed the author?
Zenji is that a trick question lol? i dont know what you mean by islam anymore. I guess what's stopping me is fear that the sunnis are right all along, and only some of the hadiths are false...leading to my barbecue rendezvous after i die.
humble thanks for the advice, i realise more everyday that im not even close to reaching a conclusion
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Peace Zantetsuken,
i may leave islam for good
What's stopping you?
peace
Zenji is that a trick question lol? i dont know what you mean by islam anymore. I guess what's stopping me is fear that the sunnis are right all along, and only some of the hadiths are false...leading to my barbecue rendezvous after i die.No, it's not a trick question at all. I just wanted to find out what the hesitation was all about. Or perhaps if you have left 'islam' already. Just curious. I thought maybe the part that was holding you back, needed contemplation. If you had made up your mind, then why the questions? Just 'leave'.
But then you said something, which I believe you need to ask yourself - "i dont know what you mean by islam anymore"! Remember, You're the one who said "I may leave islam soon"... not me. So whatever it means to you, maybe it's worth going back to the basics... what is islam?.. and how do you 'leave' it?
Peace be with you.
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peace
I don't have a link. I just think it's possible that the muhammad in the hadith is not actually the person who the Quran was inspired to. Just a possibility. Because most hadith don't fit the muhammad character in the Quran, and it's unlikely that all of them were made up. So it could've been that muhammad (the praised one) was a title adopted by an arab leader from the Quran. That's what happened with Mecca and Kaaba. But this is not important.
But I wanted to tell you that the Quran IS the Hadith.
"The Message" is just the translation of the Quran, I think. Ask Layth about it.
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Peace Zantetsuken,
i may leave islam for good
What's stopping you?
peace
Zenji is that a trick question lol? i dont know what you mean by islam anymore. I guess what's stopping me is fear that the sunnis are right all along, and only some of the hadiths are false...leading to my barbecue rendezvous after i die.No, it's not a trick question at all. I just wanted to find out what the hesitation was all about. Or perhaps if you have left 'islam' already. Just curious. I thought maybe the part that was holding you back, needed contemplation. If you had made up your mind, then why the questions? Just 'leave'.
But then you said something, which I believe you need to ask yourself - "i dont know what you mean by islam anymore"! Remember, You're the one who said "I may leave islam soon"... not me. So whatever it means to you, maybe it's worth going back to the basics... what is islam?.. and how do you 'leave' it?
Peace be with you.
At first I thought you were asking me the question based on what you think 'islam' is. Even the possibility that you were asking it in an arrogant way if you consider yourself a 'muslim', like "what's stopping you from leaving?" meaning "there's the door, who needs you". Childish premature thinking on my part.
When I said I'm considering leaving it, I meant that I would reach the conviction that the quran is not from a god, but from a psychedelic experience or something, because the arguments of sunni or progressives were just as flawed as christians basis of belief to me.
Honestly I was going to say I now have a renewed interest in philosophical quran thanks to you guys... until I read pheonix's last post, which, no offense pheonix, I consider to be wishful thinking at it's finest. Do you know what is the possibility of your scenario being true?! The fraction is so small I wouldnt even write that many zeros. It's like you're proving Ali Sina's point, denial that the prophet could actually be that bad of a person, so you try and try to make a scenario were all this confusion could actually make sense in a good way. I'm sorry pheonix but I don't think you'll get alot of converts with that kind of argument. The burden of proof is on the believer's side, not the non-believers', and I haven't been able to proove it since I was born.
But then you are much more experienced in this forum than I am. I have been known for jumping to conclusions, please feel free to bitchslap me with your own reply.
peace
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peace Z
No offence taken, but I think you missed the part where I said "it doesn't matter." We shouldn't be concerned with who the prophet was or where he/she lived. All we have from that person is the Quran.
I think the "philosophical" approach to the Quran is the correct one. It requires no wishful thinking.