Re -mquran
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Salaam MQ
Regarding your recent thread, which generated lot of hot air, must admit you have talent for these things (only joking) and Sis SC appears to always come in to spoil a good fight (annoying habit indeed).
Seriously though (Although you and I have very rarely agreed on anything and may have been touch hostile at times) I understand your furstrations but I do not agree with what you propose. I think Islam, Quran, God etc are strong enough to withstand any criticsm or abuse hurled in that direction. Banning people is a very dangerous game, which often is the first and last resort of evil authoritarian regimes and I am sure you would not want to go down that road. Dealing with indivdual(s) you percieve to be abusive, mischievious etc is simple-dont rise to the bait. However if there is an intelligient discussion to be had then feel free.
I am sure if you, and others, ignored what you consider to be balatantly anti Islamic rubbish then the topic will not move any further.
Hibernation not bad thing, bit of solitude and reflection did no one any harm.
I hope you get my drift - as this is not meant as criticism or personal attack and I hope you will not percieve it as such.
Regards -
Hello
I have to say I also not in full agreement of MQ, but I like him a lot and I believe he is a great contribution to this web site, on the other hand I'm against banning and I don't give a fluke about the EOI, let them in and we will eat them for breakfast
Cheers
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...let them in and we will eat them for breakfast
i dont like the idea of eating junk yuck
LOL
how about we burn the junk then
cheers
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Salaamun alaikum Stilllearning and Everyone,
I welcome your comments and take your point.
What I expected for this forum was that with a sincere process of dialectics (corresponding to the Quranic concept of jidaal , haqq and baathil), we will arrive at a closer and closer understanding of al-haqq (Quranically AQ itself and Allah Himself).
Dialectics however can only be achieved through proper discussion and not through mockery (corresponding to the Quranic concept of 'istahzaa'. AQ acknowledges that there are people who take the ayaat of Allah as mockery and jest and instructs us about what to do in such a situation. Acting like the monkey of such people isn't part of the believers agenda, I'm afraid.
I agree that banning and censorship can be dangerous and used for personal aims. However, I believe the moderators are on the side of those who accept AQ and I hope they will see that allowing the detractors of AQ to attack it irresponsibly is NOT allowable in Allah's book.
And AB, 'eating them for breakfast' can only happen if they act like responsible debators. For some of them, they write lengthy posts, never addressing your points or questions and continue their degradation of God's signs.
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Salaam
I also disagree with banning. If people make mockery of Al Qur'aan, Islaam etc. we should show through example by refuting the falsehood with truth but not control and I think thats the best example to follow. Truth will stand if we are brave enough to present it and we can presued the peoples of the earth with truth and Allah will have our backing since The All Knowing supports Truth. In the real world based on LAWS of free will every body is not going to come around and thats fine but I don't think we should take the brute force method of contol. You fight a fight with truth not control.
Salaam
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Al-khidr, it's really great how - like in your 5 salaat fiasco - you missed the point of this completely.
Can people enter your house and spray grafiti about how false Al-quraan is, al-khidr ? Would you allow that?In the same way, this house is controlled by people who believe. So am I telling them, don't ppl spray grafiti, instead lets have a DIALOGUE. In a fair debate, I am fully confident AQ will overcome any argument. However, being shouted down by a bunch of frustrated people isn't what's on AQ's agenda.
Kindly read carefully. Don't let this be like your 5-salat thread please.
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Salaam mquran
Personally I do not know what your talking about in regards to the 5 Salaat.
I will make a few comments pertaining to your statement.
You have said this
"Can people enter your house and spray grafiti about how false Al-quraan is, al-khidr ? Would you allow that?"
Since you have asked me. I believe in no censorship. I believe in freedom of speech, even when I disagree with those who may say things that I do not like or believe in. I personally believe we should lead with example and let truth put out the fire, that is my position. I have a website and there are comments on my website in my blog and guessbook that I do not like but I leave them there because I want to be an example of leading by example and letting truth take care of it all. So back to your question up above yes people have done that in my house, like my website, but I lead by truth and let that be the example/model to deal with the ignorant. I do not believe in cencorship even if I totally disagree and don't like it. For example the KKK in the usa are notorious for promoting racism, I totally disagree with their rhetoric but I will never take the position to say that they are not allowed to express themselves, once we control people like that, then we could see a trickle down effect and then the system (in the macro level) will use this form of control on every one, like how it use to be back in the days. We live in a world where Allah created free-will and let us use that law effectively to combat those ignorant ones as you perceive.
You have said the following
"In the same way, this house is controlled by people who believe. So am I telling them, don't ppl spray grafiti, instead lets have a DIALOGUE. In a fair debate,"
and
"However, being shouted down by a bunch of frustrated people isn't what's on AQ's agenda."
You have to remember mquran in the real world people will say things you do not like, people will get fustrated and people will shout others down as you have mentioned, it comes with the territory especially when you have different peoples all over the world coming from different walks of life. But the bottom line is are you going to exercise control like a dictator gov. or are we going to lead by example and pursued people to the truth by example and also to every one will not comply and we should all accept that. If you were living in Saudi Arabia they would also look at you and consider you as a heretic because you believe in Qur'aan alone and reject hadiyth. so they would also consider you what you ascribe to others and then they will move in and use control mechanisms rather then let truth be the example and model to win people over to the truth. This is what we all want to avoid.
Salaam
Al-khidr, it's really great how - like in your 5 salaat fiasco - you missed the point of this completely.
Can people enter your house and spray grafiti about how false Al-quraan is, al-khidr ? Would you allow that?In the same way, this house is controlled by people who believe. So am I telling them, don't ppl spray grafiti, instead lets have a DIALOGUE. In a fair debate, I am fully confident AQ will overcome any argument. However, being shouted down by a bunch of frustrated people isn't what's on AQ's agenda.
Kindly read carefully. Don't let this be like your 5-salat thread please.
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Al-KhidrPersonally I do not know what your talking about in regards to the 5 Salaat.
I'm talking about how you handle debates. How you handle debates is an example of the behaviour which led me to ask raise this issue.
Since you have asked me. I believe in no censorship. I believe in freedom of speech, even when I disagree with those who may say things that I do not like or believe in. I personally believe we should lead with example and let truth put out the fire, that is my position. I have a website and there are comments on my website in my blog and guessbook that I do not like but I leave them there because I want to be an example of leading by example and letting truth take care of it all. So back to your question up above yes people have done that in my house, like my website, but I lead by truth and let that be the example/model to deal with the ignorant. I do not believe in cencorship even if I totally disagree and don't like it. For example the KKK in the usa are notorious for promoting racism, I totally disagree with their rhetoric but I will never take the position to say that they are not allowed to express themselves, once we control people like that, then we could see a trickle down effect and then the system (in the macro level) will use this form of control on every one, like how it use to be back in the days. We live in a world where Allah created free-will and let us use that law effectively to combat those ignorant ones as you perceive
Fine. That's your point of view. If you care to, we can discuss the issue vis-a-vis Al-quraan. So far as I have seen , AQ promotes jidaal in the best manner (16/125) but does not allow 'sitting' to mockery of the ayaat (4/140)
You have to remember mquran in the real world people will say things you do not like, people will get fustrated and people will shout others down as you have mentioned, it comes with the territory especially when you have different peoples all over the world coming from different walks of life. But the bottom line is are you going to exercise control like a dictator gov. or are we going to lead by example and pursued people to the truth by example and also to every one will not comply and we should all accept that. If you were living in Saudi Arabia they would also look at you and consider you as a heretic because you believe in Qur'aan alone and reject hadiyth. so they would also consider you what you ascribe to others and then they will move in and use control mechanisms rather then let truth be the example and model to win people over to the truth. This is what we all want to avoid.
I have a strong feeling that you're not aware of what brought this issue up to begin with.
Let me give you an example
Guy X says 'Fear of Allah is REALISTICALLY, LOGICALLY and SCIENTIFICALLY incorrect'.
Is it over the top to ask Guy X to explain himself? No one asked for Guy X to be censored but if Guy X wants to criticise AQ, he should have some manner of responsibility.
We're not in a sunni forum where our own beliefs are hereticised but neither are we in a kuffar forum where AQ can be mocked, insulted or criticised without due process.
If you find me wrong, please bring forth evidence from AQ. I will humbly change my views if AQ says I'm wrong.
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salam alekom we rahmatoallah we barakaatoo
inshaa allah u are all in the best of health and iman.
i have to agree with aquran in this thread because allah warned us in the quran about people who mock our beautiful religion. there is only so much you can do and say but if that person is not willing to respect your belief and carries on with unacceptable behaviour, we must take a stand(in this case banning). on the contrary sure it is a good intention u have to want to prove them wrong but try to avoid situations that will make u inequiped to handle topics needing good islamic mannerism (no angry, frustration but patience etc).
may allah guide us all bismillah
susy
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A excerpt from the rules
2] Please note that this forum is primarily dedicated to the study and understanding of the Scripture (Quran). Thus, mocking it or not being able to back-up claims with specifics will all result in deletion of such posts and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1704.0I think it is clear enough.
One can criticize the Quran or question its divine origine (in the appropriate section of the forum) ; but one should not mock it, and one should be able to back-up his claims.
Peace
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A excerpt from the rules
2] Please note that this forum is primarily dedicated to the study and understanding of the Scripture (Quran). Thus, mocking it or not being able to back-up claims with specifics will all result in deletion of such posts and/or removal of topic and/or disciplinary action being taken against the offending member.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=1704.0I think it is clear enough.
One can criticize the Quran or questionning its divine origine (in the appropriate section of the forum) ; but one should not mock it, and one should be able to back-up his claims.
Peace
that was as clearer as it can get
Thanks
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Salaam mquran
Now I see your angle on the 5 Salaat debate I encountered with a lot of Progressive Muslims who believe in 3 Salaat. However your views on that issue are subject of question and even your view/opinions/perception about it is debatable. But I will leave that issue for another thread. Thats not for this thread.
I notice that you have said
"Guy X says 'Fear of Allah is REALISTICALLY, LOGICALLY and SCIENTIFICALLY incorrect'. "
I personally feel if Guy "X" says that, he or she has every right to make such claim and I still feel that we should lead by example and present the truth/proofs/evidence and allow people to decide rather then ban a person for that. I can understand if someone is harrasing, using curse words, trying to place porn, just to name a few example, they should be banned but not for your example up above. In the Qur'aan Allay says there is no compulsion in religion so I personally do not believe in excersicing that level of control.
Salaam
Al-KhidrPersonally I do not know what your talking about in regards to the 5 Salaat.
I'm talking about how you handle debates. How you handle debates is an example of the behaviour which led me to ask raise this issue.
Since you have asked me. I believe in no censorship. I believe in freedom of speech, even when I disagree with those who may say things that I do not like or believe in. I personally believe we should lead with example and let truth put out the fire, that is my position. I have a website and there are comments on my website in my blog and guessbook that I do not like but I leave them there because I want to be an example of leading by example and letting truth take care of it all. So back to your question up above yes people have done that in my house, like my website, but I lead by truth and let that be the example/model to deal with the ignorant. I do not believe in cencorship even if I totally disagree and don't like it. For example the KKK in the usa are notorious for promoting racism, I totally disagree with their rhetoric but I will never take the position to say that they are not allowed to express themselves, once we control people like that, then we could see a trickle down effect and then the system (in the macro level) will use this form of control on every one, like how it use to be back in the days. We live in a world where Allah created free-will and let us use that law effectively to combat those ignorant ones as you perceive
Fine. That's your point of view. If you care to, we can discuss the issue vis-a-vis Al-quraan. So far as I have seen , AQ promotes jidaal in the best manner (16/125) but does not allow 'sitting' to mockery of the ayaat (4/140)
You have to remember mquran in the real world people will say things you do not like, people will get fustrated and people will shout others down as you have mentioned, it comes with the territory especially when you have different peoples all over the world coming from different walks of life. But the bottom line is are you going to exercise control like a dictator gov. or are we going to lead by example and pursued people to the truth by example and also to every one will not comply and we should all accept that. If you were living in Saudi Arabia they would also look at you and consider you as a heretic because you believe in Qur'aan alone and reject hadiyth. so they would also consider you what you ascribe to others and then they will move in and use control mechanisms rather then let truth be the example and model to win people over to the truth. This is what we all want to avoid.
I have a strong feeling that you're not aware of what brought this issue up to begin with.
Let me give you an example
Guy X says 'Fear of Allah is REALISTICALLY, LOGICALLY and SCIENTIFICALLY incorrect'.
Is it over the top to ask Guy X to explain himself? No one asked for Guy X to be censored but if Guy X wants to criticise AQ, he should have some manner of responsibility.
We're not in a sunni forum where our own beliefs are hereticised but neither are we in a kuffar forum where AQ can be mocked, insulted or criticised without due process.
If you find me wrong, please bring forth evidence from AQ. I will humbly change my views if AQ says I'm wrong.
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Peace All
The fact of the matter is, this is a forum and we need to play by the rules of the moderators. It's not a government and it really doesn't have to be for the people, by the people. If the rules state that something is tolerated or is not, there is no discussion. You either accept the rules and register, or you don't and find a forum that you do accept.
In my personal opinion, I find some posters to be an annoyance because they only seem to frustrate the flow of thoughts rather than contribute to them. According to quran though, I must leave him in peace. I can't become the aggressor and I can't answer back because he may turn around and say worse things against God. I gotta tell ya sometimes that's really hard to just walk away from a post that you know you can easily tear apart in two seconds flat and make the poster look like a fool for trying. But the best thing to do is to simply refrain from posting.
I would love to see these people engage in debate but this is not their agenda and we know it so just don't even try. I tried a few times until I realized the game. I'm sure we all have tried to call a poster or two on the b.s. they spewed only to find no reply or better yet something way off in left field.
This is just my humble opinion, so if any moderators are taking notice, it's only a suggestion. The rule is very vague. If you spell out in plain english what constitutes mockery versus what constitutes someone's views or opinions and where the fine line is, then it makes the issue of banning less "arbitrary-looking" and more concrete. I've heard this argument several times, that so-and-so was only voicing his opinion and since it's not the same as the rest he was banned. You can look at the same post and one person can say it's mockery while the other can say it's an opinion. So making bullet points of what is mockery and when an opinion turns into an insult would probably make it crystal clear so that others can't even try to twist a vague rule to their own advantage.
But again, no moderator really has to do anything. He/she can leave a really vague rule. He/she can say no girls with red toenails allowed if they wanted. Our choice is to either register or not. Once you register, you agree to the terms stipulated. There really is no ammendment to the rules once you're in as far as forums are concerned.
I think bro Mquran as well as bro Khidr make two very valid points and I agree with both to a certain level and in different circumstances. I just don't agree that we can even have a discussion of rules of a forum though ...simply because it's not ours.
Peace All
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Peace Bro Al Khidr
Thank you brother for your vote of confidence )
Peace All
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Mquran, please let me first say that I am posting this only for reasons of my own understanding, in hopes to come to know why.
Your comment here is very simple and to the point. It is very easy to understand.
That's all Im asking for here responsible, amicable discussion.
Where I get lost in coming to understand where you are coming from is, in a thread I started in the Off-Topic section, you mentioned
AQ 61/2 Why do you say that which you do not?
Good initiative, Mr Mehdi.
Which shows to me your good understanding of 61/2.
This morning I ran across this thread and noticed your post
Now - when he wants to fake profundity, we get a comment like the one to phoenix but a few months ago, when he was too frightened to debate OpenMind, we get the number thing.
Hehe, no wonder he cannot answer a single question, he can't even make up his own mind, lol.Brother, I am confused by this. How is this amicable?
Tay asked very good question in his Kafir thread
I agree, but again, find this to be a gray territory if only for the sake of intention. Is mischief the cause of a behavior or the effect of a more sincere cause? How do we judge this with accuracy?
Since we know Allah is the True Judge of us all, perhaps all we can do is ask and communicate to come to understanding, instead of running with false notions which our own minds may make up towards the behaviour of eachother. This is why I'm posting this. Because it appears that you are very aware of 61/2, however the chronological order of your posts appear to me reading of them to go the other way.
I would be very glad if you would be kind enough to clear this up to help my understanding.
peace be you.
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MehdiMquran, please let me first say that I am posting this only for reasons of my own understanding, in hopes to come to know why.
Duly noted.
MquranThat's all Im asking for here responsible, amicable discussion.
MquranNow - when he wants to fake profundity, we get a comment like the one to phoenix but a few months ago, when he was too frightened to debate OpenMind, we get the number thing.
Hehe, no wonder he cannot answer a single question, he can't even make up his own mind, lol.MehdiBrother, I am confused by this. How is this amicable?
It's not and that comment and comments like those weren't meant to be that. I'm ASKING for an amicable discussion.
Mr Mehdi, you were absent for a long time. In your absence, this all started. It started with the secret athiest Enquirer interjecting my conversation by asking 'do you really believe in this archaic book'. I had no problem with the comment as long as he was willing to discuss it. He wasn't. If you don't believe me, I suggest you ask about. Enquirer's reputation for poor conduct in discussion is now well-known. He then went on to start a thread about contradictions. All were answered but this person refused to acknowledge it despite being dumbfounded at every answer. Layth then with great gusto insituted rule 2, which forces every negative comment towards AQ to be substantiated. If this rule was enforced, Enquirer , Danish and every other troll in the forum wouldn't last 2 days. But it wasn't. So we have these idiots running riot. Enquirer even gave his word to answer my comments if I took the time to explain an issue. I did and he said that I 'projected my understanding onto AQ'. I asked for proof and he ran (ostensibly to do his shopping). Came back 2 months later and 'forgot'. That's the kind of person he is. He's here, like Danish, to defecate on us. Their communities would probably lynch them - which they don't deserve - so they need to vent their hate for God, ad-deen and people who believe somewhere. Thanks to the laxity of rules, that place is here.
I am for amicable discussion, no matter how disparaging the topic can be. All I ask for is a mutual answering of questions. Have a look at all my 'discussions' with Danish and Enquirer and you will see just how many times they've changed the subject or began insulting AQ and AI when I've done this.
Hope that answers you.