Proper Name "Muslim"
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Peace be upon you,
Sorry, yes it is the God that has described us as peacful(muslim), not Ibrahim. All else still stands. the word "muslim" is a description, or else we should all be going around saying "Hey Muslim Jr.", "Hey Muslim the IV", we would all be literally NAMED "Muslim".
One more question for stimulation. Why are all the suppossed "names" in this Text just given as first names? None of these people had last names or more than one word in thier names? Hmmmmm
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Salaam Kyle,
Nice question regarding first names. Well, I don't know whether last names are so important, because in my country, lots of people do not have a last name.
But let's say these "names" are just descriptions or hints about a certain trait or character, then each of these "names" should be translatable. How do you translate "maryam"? What are its roots? Taking the character Maryam symbolically does make sense to me, especially the ruh al-qudus was given to this feminine character and later on produces a male character which strengthened by the same ruh al-qudus.
=adley=
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KyleSorry, yes it is the God that has described us as peacful(muslim), not Ibrahim. All else still stands. the word "muslim" is a description, or else we should all be going around saying "Hey Muslim Jr.", "Hey Muslim the IV", we would all be literally NAMED "Muslim".
Lol, never thought of it that way. After all, AQ doesn't say 'samma' your GROUP but 'samma' YOU. Hahah, can we still keep our lasts names, you think, Mr Muslim Kyle?
One more question for stimulation. Why are all the suppossed "names" in this Text just given as first names? None of these people had last names or more than one word in thier names? Hmmmmm
Adley's answer seems correctBut let's say these "names" are just descriptions or hints about a certain trait or character, then each of these "names" should be translatable. How do you translate "maryam"? What are its roots? Taking the character Maryam symbolically does make sense to me, especially the ruh al-qudus was given to this feminine character and later on produces a male character which strengthened by the same ruh al-qudus.
To me, historically, none of these people matter. What matters is what has been yielded to us by snapshots given by AQ. Maryam as an sign in souls (41/53) can give us the lesson of how to birth into the new self, Isa, who then heals Bani Israil.
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Peace be upon you all,
I think all of the descriptions have meaning, but I dont know what many of them mean. But as MQ stated, it is the lesson that gives us the benefit and that is what I seek.
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Salaam Kyle,
I agree with you that all descriptions must have a meaning. Perhaps you can share with us on what you already know of these descriptions and probably all of us can try to decipher what the now still uknowns are? It could lead an interesting discussion maybe. )
=adley=
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Peace brothers Kyle, Adley, all,
I think all of the descriptions have meaning, but I dont know what many of them mean. But as MQ stated, it is the lesson that gives us the benefit and that is what I seek.
I think that names such as Maryam, Abraham, Ismail are proper names that don't have meanings or their meaning became completely irrelevant to the message and this is why The God didn't translate them to Arabic. This goes back to address the following question by Adley
By what standard or rule we can objectively decide that a word, or a combination of words, is a proper name as it is used in the quran?
Proper names are not translated. So if The God didn't translate a word such as Ibrahim from whatever it meant in Kanaanite or Maryam from whatever it meant in Hebrew into Arabic then they are proper names. On the other hand, we see that common nouns fit in the context. For example "mecca"/destruction in 4824 perfectly fit in the context. Similarly, the common noun "mohamed" fits in the context where it is used and hence should be taken as a common noun and not a proper name.
Our frst priority should be to try translate everything and take it as common noun. It is only when a word was clearly borrowed wholeheartedly as a proper name from a language that is older than Arabic and whose translation leads to nonsense that it may be taken as a proper name. I mentioned the examples above of Ibrahim and Maryam. Another example, is Allat, AlUzza and Manat, which are orginally Nabataean proper names and thus translating them leads to nonsense because certainly they don't describe the reality of those idols.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salaam all
As someone mentioned, the word "muslim" is ism faa3el of the verb aslam. The point is can you use this "grammatical construction" in a context where it does not have an underlying meaning of "submitting to God"? This is not valid in the case of its translation (submitter), because it could be used in different contexts. That's what God meant by "It is Him who named you muslims". I believe, therefore, this word may not be translated, and be has to be treated as proper name.
Another view
Aymen made a good observation, that there must have been another word said to Abraham with the same meaning. Perhaps it had the same semantic charactter as "muslims", i.e. it could not be used in a different context.Therefore, if we are to translate the word "muslim", it must be into another word that could not be used in any other context than to God (submitter to God),for example; not just (submitter).
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Peace Samia,
As someone mentioned, the word "muslim" is ism faa3el of the verb aslam. The point is can you use this "grammatical construction" in a context where it does not have an underlying meaning of "submitting to God"? This is not valid in the case of its translation (submitter), because it could be used in different contexts. That's what God meant by "It is Him who named you muslims". I believe, therefore, this word may not be translated, and be has to be treated as proper name.
Another view
Aymen made a good observation, that there must have been another word said to Abraham with the same meaning. Perhaps it had the same semantic charactter as "muslims", i.e. it could not be used in a different context.Therefore, if we are to translate the word "muslim", it must be into another word that could not be used in any other context than to God (submitter to God),for example; not just (submitter).
Linguistically proper names are not translated. We all agree that there is no way that the followers of Abraham were given an Arabic proper name from the future before the language was invented. So linguistically speaking it is definitely not a proper name but is a common noun.
Now the issue that you bring is a philosophical issue not a linguistic one. Your issue is can you use this "grammatical construction" in a context where it does not have an underlying meaning of "submitting to God"? I would say that I believe that you can't. Everything in the heavens and the earth submit to The God willingly or unwillingly. So from a philosophical and practical point of view, all submission is ultimately to The God. The key is to do it willingly (as opposed to being forced to do it later unwillingly). So when you hear "submit!" or "did you submit?" without a "to whom" object (as we hear in the great reading 2130, 320, 4917, etc.), people who know the truth know that the "to whom" object is "the Lord of the universe". No one claims that the word "submit"/"aslim" is a proper name because this "grammatical construction" can or cannot be used in a context where it does not have an underlying meaning of "submitting to God".
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam Aymen
I think Idid not explain my point clearly. In fact I never thought of this before, so this explains a bit of clumsiness.
What I want to say is that we have proper names, which should not be translated
And there are common nouns that should/can be translated
A third category, set by God, is "common names", i.e common nouns that behave like proper names, and can only be translated under a strict condition.When I say aslam can not be used in a different context, I mean in ordinary language, not a religious context. Can you think of an Arabic sentence where you may use this verb where it does not mean "aslam something lillah"? This is not valid for the verb "to submit". I can say I submitted my application to the human resources.
So, the "strict" condition to translate the "proper noun" or "common name" muslim is to translate it into a word that is not used (in the wide target language) in any other entity than to God. Otherwise, it should be a complete sentence (submitter to God) and not just (submitter).I hope this is clearer.
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Peace Samia,
I think Idid not explain my point clearly. In fact I never thought of this before, so this explains a bit of clumsiness.
Sister, we are both trying to undo hundreds of years of confusion and corruption. Given the circumstances, a bit of clumsiness on my part or your part is inevitable and is a healthy thing.
What I want to say is that we have proper names, which should not be translated
And there are common nouns that should/can be translated
A third category, set by God, is "common names", i.e common nouns that behave like proper names, and can only be translated under a strict condition.I don't think that creating a new third previously unheard of category is the answer, especially since this category seems to have been created exclusively for terms perceived as "religious". Also, "set by God" is an unjustifiably strong statement.
When I say aslam can not be used in a different context, I mean in ordinary language, not a religious context. Can you think of an Arabic sentence where you may use this verb where it does not mean "aslam something lillah"?
You may be right from a Modern Arabic language perspective. However, what we are interested in is how a pre-quranic Arab hearing the word for the first time would have understood it.
I can think of several Arabic sentences in the great reading where aslam/muslim doesn't mean "aslam something lillah". Take 271 for example where the word "muslima/musalama" (female "muslim"/ a female who is made "muslim" is used in reference to the appearance of a cow!
This is not valid for the verb "to submit". I can say I submitted my application to the human resources.
The same thing can be said about "muslima/musalama" (female "muslim"/ a female who is made "muslim" in 271. So the English "submit/submitter" like the Arabic "aslam/muslim" can be used in different contexts in ordinary language. As in the case of all common nouns, the context is what determines the meaning in both cases. There is no need to assume that the reader is not intelligent enough to figure this out on his or her own and that we have to create a special category of "proper nouns" for whatever words religious people take as sacrosanct.
So, the "strict" condition to translate the "proper noun" or "common name" muslim is to translate it into a word that is not used (in the wide target language) in any other entity than to God. Otherwise, it should be a complete sentence (submitter to God) and not just (submitter).
I hope this is clearer.I think that the context determines what the meaning is and hence the proper translation. If the context can be translated, then so can the word in question. There is no need for a special treatment of "religious" words. If the word "submitter" doesn't sound right in the context then we need to look for another English word that is more appropriate instead of masking the issue by inventing a new category of nouns.
Peace,
Ayman
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Hello All
Actually the Quran used the word ?Muslimin? to indicate a human submitting to another human as in power
Saying exalt not yourselves against me and come to me in submission.
(31)
-> Clearly Solaiman message to the Queen of Sheba ? exalt not yourselves against me and come to me in submission.?, see, he never said come to Allah in submission, he said ?come to me?
This was confirmed a few verses later when Solaiman threatened them with destruction
37- Go back to them, so we will most certainly come to them with hosts which they shall have no power to oppose, and we will most certainly expel them therefrom in abasement, and they shall be in a state of ignominy.
38- He said O chiefs! which of you can bring to me her throne before they come to me in submission?
(37)
(3-> See the threat of destruction ? Go back to them, so we will most certainly come to them with hosts which they shall have no power to oppose, and we will most certainly expel them therefrom in abasement, and they shall be in a state of ignominy?, then again he said afterward ? before they come to me in submission??
I agree that many understand the above that the message to submit to Allah however Solaiman insisted in saying ?come to me in submission? which has to be surrendering,
Salam
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Salaam Aymen
I can think of several Arabic sentences in the great reading where aslam/muslim doesn't mean "aslam something lillah". Take 271 for example where the word "muslima/musalama" (female "muslim"/ a female who is made "muslim" is used in reference to the appearance of a cow!
The word in this verse, in transliteration, is not "musalama" but "musal-lama" with a shadda or a double laam, derived from the verb "sallama" not "aslama". That's how I would translate "submitted an application" sallamtul istimaara, and not aslamtu....
I don't think that creating a new third previously unheard of category is the answer, especially since this category seems to have been created exclusively for terms perceived as "religious". Also, "set by God" is an unjustifiably strong statement.
I am not "creating" a third category. I am trying not to submit the Qur'aan to human linguistics blindly. Remember that we can deduce from the Qur'aan a generic feminine, unheard of in linguistics. In this case we are trying to understand, ruled by His saying that "He named us muslims", not just whether we can or cannot translate a word, unless His saying served no purpose.
You may be right from a Modern Arabic language perspective. However, what we are interested in is how a pre-quranic Arab hearing the word for the first time would have understood it.
Maybe they used it and maybe they never did and were contented with the other form "sallama" just like the Arabs today. But since we do not have any pre-qur'aanic document in Arabic, I would be intersted in knowing how early writings in other languages dealt with this word when writing about "islam" or "muslims" did they translate it or just kept it as it is.
That could shed light on whether pre-qur'aanic Arabs used this word (so it will be translated) or they did not (in this case it wont)
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Salaam Ahmed
Actually the Quran used the word ?Muslimin? to indicate a human submitting to another human as in power
Saying exalt not yourselves against me and come to me in submission.
(31)
That's a very good example So,muslimeen is not a proper name, nor of a (third category)
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Salaam all,
Really sorry for the late reply. The last week had been disastrous for me.
From the discussion going, and by re-reading the related verses, it does seem that my proposal of treating "muslimin" should be rejected.
And thus, it is just a common noun.
Although if "submitter" is not considered a good translation, then we probably should create another one.Many thanks to Ayman, Ahmed, and Samia for the Arabic knowledge.
=adley=
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The sons of Israel and Muhammad follower are called "moslem" as long they abide to Allah's law, if otherwise, they are called "musyrekeen" eventhough they are doing rituism.
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Peace all,
Thank you Adley for starting this thread and making some excellent observations.
I used to think that the word "muslim" is just a common noun to mean "one who submits/surrenders". However, perhaps I was wrong and this word is a proper name "Muslim" after all. The reason being 2278.
So, in , it is Muslim, a proper name too.
2278 can be seen as a proper name...
Proper names are not translated. Hence, names such as Ibrahim/Abraham, Ismail/Ishmael Ishaac/Isaac and Maryam/Mary are similar in Hebrew, English and Arabic with some phonetic variations and cross-language mispronunciation. For example, Ibrahim is a proper name and hence in the great reading it is not translated into Arabic from what it meant in Kanaanite or whatever ancient language Abraham spoke.
Let's think about this for a minute. Were Abraham's followers named what would have been at their time a gibberish word from a future language that wasn't even invented yet? I don't think so.
Proposing that "al-muslimeen" in 2278 is a proper name is no different than proposing that 1400 years ago the followers of the prophet were actually called "The Submitters" long before Modern English was invented. Saying "The Submitters" to Arabs 1400 years ago or "Al Muslimeen" to Ibrahim's followers a few thousand years earlier would have sounded just as gibberish as saying "Qasdhwdkfvwdhcv" to people on this thread. It will still be gibberish to everyone here even if thousands of years from now some yet to be invented language will have "qasdhwdkfvwdhcv" as a meaningful word.
Ayman,
In the Quran, the verb samma and its derivatives are always followed by a proper noun.
That implies that the word muslim, in the verse (but not necessarily in all the verses) has to be seen as a proper noun too.Each community of people has a name, and, in the verse , God has stated that the right name for the community of people who have decided to submit to God is ?Muslim?. This is the way I understand it.
Since the Quran is in the Arabic language, God has given an Arabic word. God could have used the language of Abraham, or the language of Moses, but He has chosen the Arabic language.
It is true the proper nouns are usually not translated, but there are exceptions. Allah is a translation, Isa too. In the same manner, the names of the towns are usually translated.
I know you will disagree with almost 100% of this post, but this is my opinion. For me, Allah, Quran, Muslim, and Islam are proper names, although they can be seen as common names too?
Proper nouns (also called proper names) are the names of unique entities. For example, "Janet", "Jupiter" and "Germany" are proper nouns. Proper nouns are capitalized in English and most other languages that use the Latin alphabet, and this is one easy way to recognise them. This fails, however, in German, in which nouns of all types are capitalized.
All other nouns are called common nouns. For example, "girl", "planet", and "country" are common nouns.
Sometimes the same word can function as both a common noun and a proper noun, where one such entity is special. For example "There can be many gods, but there is only one God."
The common meaning of the word or words constituting a proper noun may be unrelated to the object to which the proper noun refers. For example, someone might be named "Tiger Smith" despite being neither a tiger nor a smith. For this reason, proper nouns are usually not translated between languages, although they may be transliterated. For example, the German surname Kn?del becomes Knodel or Knoedel in English (not the literal Dumpling). However, the translation of placenames and the names of monarchs, popes, and non-contemporary authors is common and sometimes universal. For instance, the Portuguese word Lisboa becomes Lisbon in English; the English London becomes Londres in French; and the Greek Aristotels becomes Aristotle in English.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_nounAllah, Quran, and Muslim are special and unique entities. In every language, special and unique entities are given a proper name.
Therefore I see nothing wrong for these words to be proper nouns, despite they can have a meaning as common nouns too.Typically, you use to identify the Quran by ?the great reading?, whereas there is no ?great? in the Arabic al quran. When I use the word ?Quran?, instead of the translation ?reading?, I am, like you with the qualifier ?great? emphasizing on the fact I am speaking about a very special and unique reading. This is the basic role of a proper noun.
Peace
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The Arabs say, "We believe." Say, "Ye, have no Faith, but ye (only) say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah, 'for not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught of your deeds for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
The Arabs say that do they?
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Salaam Ahmed
That's a very good example So,muslimeen is not a proper name, nor of a (third category)Actually the Quran used the word ?Muslimin? to indicate a human submitting to another human as in power
Saying exalt not yourselves against me and come to me in submission.
(31)
In the above verse it is an adjective but again it still refering to those who submit to Solaiman
salam
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Non Moslems when they follow to law of what God has revealed to him called as - under the soveriegnity of Islam - muslim. Muslim is a terms for a subject who doing surenderness to Allah's deen voluntarily or unwillingly (QS.3/83).