Proper Name "Muslim"

Samia

Salam Aymen

I think Idid not explain my point clearly. In fact I never thought of this before, so this explains a bit of clumsiness.

What I want to say is that we have proper names, which should not be translated
And there are common nouns that should/can be translated
A third category, set by God, is "common names", i.e common nouns that behave like proper names, and can only be translated under a strict condition.

When I say aslam can not be used in a different context, I mean in ordinary language, not a religious context. Can you think of an Arabic sentence where you may use this verb where it does not mean "aslam something lillah"? This is not valid for the verb "to submit". I can say I submitted my application to the human resources.
So, the "strict" condition to translate the "proper noun" or "common name" muslim is to translate it into a word that is not used (in the wide target language) in any other entity than to God. Otherwise, it should be a complete sentence (submitter to God) and not just (submitter).

I hope this is clearer.

ayman

Peace Samia,

I think Idid not explain my point clearly. In fact I never thought of this before, so this explains a bit of clumsiness.

Sister, we are both trying to undo hundreds of years of confusion and corruption. Given the circumstances, a bit of clumsiness on my part or your part is inevitable and is a healthy thing.

What I want to say is that we have proper names, which should not be translated
And there are common nouns that should/can be translated
A third category, set by God, is "common names", i.e common nouns that behave like proper names, and can only be translated under a strict condition.

I don't think that creating a new third previously unheard of category is the answer, especially since this category seems to have been created exclusively for terms perceived as "religious". Also, "set by God" is an unjustifiably strong statement.

When I say aslam can not be used in a different context, I mean in ordinary language, not a religious context. Can you think of an Arabic sentence where you may use this verb where it does not mean "aslam something lillah"?

You may be right from a Modern Arabic language perspective. However, what we are interested in is how a pre-quranic Arab hearing the word for the first time would have understood it.

I can think of several Arabic sentences in the great reading where aslam/muslim doesn't mean "aslam something lillah". Take 271 for example where the word "muslima/musalama" (female "muslim"/ a female who is made "muslim&quot is used in reference to the appearance of a cow!

This is not valid for the verb "to submit". I can say I submitted my application to the human resources.

The same thing can be said about "muslima/musalama" (female "muslim"/ a female who is made "muslim&quot in 271. So the English "submit/submitter" like the Arabic "aslam/muslim" can be used in different contexts in ordinary language. As in the case of all common nouns, the context is what determines the meaning in both cases. There is no need to assume that the reader is not intelligent enough to figure this out on his or her own and that we have to create a special category of "proper nouns" for whatever words religious people take as sacrosanct.

So, the "strict" condition to translate the "proper noun" or "common name" muslim is to translate it into a word that is not used (in the wide target language) in any other entity than to God. Otherwise, it should be a complete sentence (submitter to God) and not just (submitter).
I hope this is clearer.

I think that the context determines what the meaning is and hence the proper translation. If the context can be translated, then so can the word in question. There is no need for a special treatment of "religious" words. If the word "submitter" doesn't sound right in the context then we need to look for another English word that is more appropriate instead of masking the issue by inventing a new category of nouns.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Hello All

Actually the Quran used the word ?Muslimin? to indicate a human submitting to another human as in power

Saying exalt not yourselves against me and come to me in submission.

(31)

-> Clearly Solaiman message to the Queen of Sheba ? exalt not yourselves against me and come to me in submission.?, see, he never said come to Allah in submission, he said ?come to me?

This was confirmed a few verses later when Solaiman threatened them with destruction

37- Go back to them, so we will most certainly come to them with hosts which they shall have no power to oppose, and we will most certainly expel them therefrom in abasement, and they shall be in a state of ignominy.

38- He said O chiefs! which of you can bring to me her throne before they come to me in submission?

(37)
(3

-> See the threat of destruction ? Go back to them, so we will most certainly come to them with hosts which they shall have no power to oppose, and we will most certainly expel them therefrom in abasement, and they shall be in a state of ignominy?, then again he said afterward ? before they come to me in submission??

I agree that many understand the above that the message to submit to Allah however Solaiman insisted in saying ?come to me in submission? which has to be surrendering,

Salam

Samia

Salaam Aymen

I can think of several Arabic sentences in the great reading where aslam/muslim doesn't mean "aslam something lillah". Take 271 for example where the word "muslima/musalama" (female "muslim"/ a female who is made "muslim&quot is used in reference to the appearance of a cow!

The word in this verse, in transliteration, is not "musalama" but "musal-lama" with a shadda or a double laam, derived from the verb "sallama" not "aslama". That's how I would translate "submitted an application" sallamtul istimaara, and not aslamtu....

I don't think that creating a new third previously unheard of category is the answer, especially since this category seems to have been created exclusively for terms perceived as "religious". Also, "set by God" is an unjustifiably strong statement.

I am not "creating" a third category. I am trying not to submit the Qur'aan to human linguistics blindly. Remember that we can deduce from the Qur'aan a generic feminine, unheard of in linguistics. In this case we are trying to understand, ruled by His saying that "He named us muslims", not just whether we can or cannot translate a word, unless His saying served no purpose.

You may be right from a Modern Arabic language perspective. However, what we are interested in is how a pre-quranic Arab hearing the word for the first time would have understood it.

Maybe they used it and maybe they never did and were contented with the other form "sallama" just like the Arabs today. But since we do not have any pre-qur'aanic document in Arabic, I would be intersted in knowing how early writings in other languages dealt with this word when writing about "islam" or "muslims" did they translate it or just kept it as it is.

That could shed light on whether pre-qur'aanic Arabs used this word (so it will be translated) or they did not (in this case it wont)

Samia

Salaam Ahmed

Actually the Quran used the word ?Muslimin? to indicate a human submitting to another human as in power

Saying exalt not yourselves against me and come to me in submission.

(31)

That's a very good example So,muslimeen is not a proper name, nor of a (third category)

adley

Salaam all,

Really sorry for the late reply. The last week had been disastrous for me.
From the discussion going, and by re-reading the related verses, it does seem that my proposal of treating "muslimin" should be rejected.
And thus, it is just a common noun.
Although if "submitter" is not considered a good translation, then we probably should create another one.

Many thanks to Ayman, Ahmed, and Samia for the Arabic knowledge.

=adley=

lovelymoslems

The sons of Israel and Muhammad follower are called "moslem" as long they abide to Allah's law, if otherwise, they are called "musyrekeen" eventhough they are doing rituism.

wildguest1956

Peace all,

Thank you Adley for starting this thread and making some excellent observations.

I used to think that the word "muslim" is just a common noun to mean "one who submits/surrenders". However, perhaps I was wrong and this word is a proper name "Muslim" after all. The reason being 2278.

So, in , it is Muslim, a proper name too.

2278 can be seen as a proper name...

Proper names are not translated. Hence, names such as Ibrahim/Abraham, Ismail/Ishmael Ishaac/Isaac and Maryam/Mary are similar in Hebrew, English and Arabic with some phonetic variations and cross-language mispronunciation. For example, Ibrahim is a proper name and hence in the great reading it is not translated into Arabic from what it meant in Kanaanite or whatever ancient language Abraham spoke.

Let's think about this for a minute. Were Abraham's followers named what would have been at their time a gibberish word from a future language that wasn't even invented yet? I don't think so.

Proposing that "al-muslimeen" in 2278 is a proper name is no different than proposing that 1400 years ago the followers of the prophet were actually called "The Submitters" long before Modern English was invented. Saying "The Submitters" to Arabs 1400 years ago or "Al Muslimeen" to Ibrahim's followers a few thousand years earlier would have sounded just as gibberish as saying "Qasdhwdkfvwdhcv" to people on this thread. It will still be gibberish to everyone here even if thousands of years from now some yet to be invented language will have "qasdhwdkfvwdhcv" as a meaningful word.

Ayman,

In the Quran, the verb samma and its derivatives are always followed by a proper noun.
That implies that the word muslim, in the verse (but not necessarily in all the verses) has to be seen as a proper noun too.

Each community of people has a name, and, in the verse , God has stated that the right name for the community of people who have decided to submit to God is ?Muslim?. This is the way I understand it.

Since the Quran is in the Arabic language, God has given an Arabic word. God could have used the language of Abraham, or the language of Moses, but He has chosen the Arabic language.

It is true the proper nouns are usually not translated, but there are exceptions. Allah is a translation, Isa too. In the same manner, the names of the towns are usually translated.

I know you will disagree with almost 100% of this post, but this is my opinion. For me, Allah, Quran, Muslim, and Islam are proper names, although they can be seen as common names too?

Proper nouns (also called proper names) are the names of unique entities. For example, "Janet", "Jupiter" and "Germany" are proper nouns. Proper nouns are capitalized in English and most other languages that use the Latin alphabet, and this is one easy way to recognise them. This fails, however, in German, in which nouns of all types are capitalized.
All other nouns are called common nouns. For example, "girl", "planet", and "country" are common nouns.
Sometimes the same word can function as both a common noun and a proper noun, where one such entity is special. For example "There can be many gods, but there is only one God."
The common meaning of the word or words constituting a proper noun may be unrelated to the object to which the proper noun refers. For example, someone might be named "Tiger Smith" despite being neither a tiger nor a smith. For this reason, proper nouns are usually not translated between languages, although they may be transliterated. For example, the German surname Kn?del becomes Knodel or Knoedel in English (not the literal Dumpling). However, the translation of placenames and the names of monarchs, popes, and non-contemporary authors is common and sometimes universal. For instance, the Portuguese word Lisboa becomes Lisbon in English; the English London becomes Londres in French; and the Greek Aristotels becomes Aristotle in English.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_noun

Allah, Quran, and Muslim are special and unique entities. In every language, special and unique entities are given a proper name.
Therefore I see nothing wrong for these words to be proper nouns, despite they can have a meaning as common nouns too.

Typically, you use to identify the Quran by ?the great reading?, whereas there is no ?great? in the Arabic al quran. When I use the word ?Quran?, instead of the translation ?reading?, I am, like you with the qualifier ?great? emphasizing on the fact I am speaking about a very special and unique reading. This is the basic role of a proper noun.

Peace

Al-Quraishi

The Arabs say, "We believe." Say, "Ye, have no Faith, but ye (only) say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah, 'for not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught of your deeds for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."

The Arabs say that do they?

unknownuser

Salaam Ahmed
That's a very good example So,muslimeen is not a proper name, nor of a (third category)

Actually the Quran used the word ?Muslimin? to indicate a human submitting to another human as in power

Saying exalt not yourselves against me and come to me in submission.

(31)

In the above verse it is an adjective but again it still refering to those who submit to Solaiman

salam

lovelymoslems

Non Moslems when they follow to law of what God has revealed to him called as - under the soveriegnity of Islam - muslim. Muslim is a terms for a subject who doing surenderness to Allah's deen voluntarily or unwillingly (QS.3/83).

adley

Salaam JM, all,

Sorry for being late, I just got back from Bali.

Bro JM, I can understand how you decide "Muslim" and "Allah" as proper names. But how about "Islam" and "Quran"? Which verses that state these proper names?

=adley=

warner

Peace be upon you

What if we were not named as Muslims?

Imagine if it was not for the verse ?It is him who named you Muslims" after 1400 years by which name will the followers of Gods last message be known as. You can pick. Imagine in every language every country and every different sect and view, having a different name to describe them, other than ?Muslim?; imagine the confusion. I guess some words are better left un-translated. The word has a meaning (Ahmed pointed out an important example )when we read through the Quraan the word is indirectly defined and added with meaning. The seriousness of the word is obvious from the following verse.

2132

Pickthall The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying) O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

Transliteration Am kuntum syuhada_'a iz hadara ya'qu_bal maut(u), iz qa_la li banihi ma_ ta'budu_na mim ba'di, qa_lu_ na'budu ila_haka wa ila_ha a_ba_'ika ibra_hima wa isma_'ila wa isha_qa ila_haw wa_hida_(n), wa nahnu lahu_ muslimu_n(a).

Today all of us call our selves Muslims instead of something else.

Maybe Abraham would have used another word in another language to name the submitters of one God; unfortunately the later generations chose to be known as Christians or Jews and not as submitters to God.

wildguest1956

Salaam JM, all,

Sorry for being late, I just got back from Bali.

Bro JM, I can understand how you decide "Muslim" and "Allah" as proper names. But how about "Islam" and "Quran"? Which verses that state these proper names?

=adley=

Because, when an name refers to something unique and special, it is often turned as a proper name.
Examples United States, United Kingdom, Human Rights, First World War?

Peace

ayman

Peace JM

In the Quran, the verb samma and its derivatives are always followed by a proper noun.
That implies that the word muslim, in the verse (but not necessarily in all the verses) has to be seen as a proper noun too.

The word "ism" in Arabic can refer to proper and common nouns. There is nothing in the great reading that suggests otherwise. This is why The God is said to have "attributes" (i.e. common nouns). This is why they are translated.

Each community of people has a name, and, in the verse , God has stated that the right name for the community of people who have decided to submit to God is ?Muslim?. This is the way I understand it.
Since the Quran is in the Arabic language, God has given an Arabic word. God could have used the language of Abraham, or the language of Moses, but He has chosen the Arabic language.
It is true the proper nouns are usually not translated, but there are exceptions. Allah is a translation, Isa too. In the same manner, the names of the towns are usually translated.

Allah is not a translation in English. It is a transliteration like Ayman. Isa is also a transliteration in English. People transliterate Allah because they wrongly take it as a proper name.

I know you will disagree with almost 100% of this post, but this is my opinion. For me, Allah, Quran, Muslim, and Islam are proper names, although they can be seen as common names too?

The word "allah" is certainly not a proper name according to the great reading. We hear in one passage (I don't remember the number now) "huwa allah fi alsamawat wa al-ard...". Such constructs with the pointing device "huwa" are not used with proper names so "allah" is definitely a common noun. In fact, the meaning intended is "huwa al-ilah fi alsamawat wa alard" (he is the god in the heavens and the earth).

Similraly, the word "quran" refers to other readings and is used in passages such as 1778 where it cannot be a proper name. The same goes for "muslim" and "islam".

Proper nouns (also called proper names) are the names of unique entities. For example, "Janet", "Jupiter" and "Germany" are proper nouns. Proper nouns are capitalized in English and most other languages that use the Latin alphabet, and this is one easy way to recognise them. This fails, however, in German, in which nouns of all types are capitalized.
All other nouns are called common nouns. For example, "girl", "planet", and "country" are common nouns.
Sometimes the same word can function as both a common noun and a proper noun, where one such entity is special. For example "There can be many gods, but there is only one God."
The common meaning of the word or words constituting a proper noun may be unrelated to the object to which the proper noun refers. For example, someone might be named "Tiger Smith" despite being neither a tiger nor a smith. For this reason, proper nouns are usually not translated between languages, although they may be transliterated. For example, the German surname Kn?del becomes Knodel or Knoedel in English (not the literal Dumpling). However, the translation of placenames and the names of monarchs, popes, and non-contemporary authors is common and sometimes universal. For instance, the Portuguese word Lisboa becomes Lisbon in English; the English London becomes Londres in French; and the Greek Aristotels becomes Aristotle in English.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_noun

Phonetic adjustment and distortions during transliteration from one language to another is not translation.

Allah, Quran, and Muslim are special and unique entities. In every language, special and unique entities are given a proper name.
Therefore I see nothing wrong for these words to be proper nouns, despite they can have a meaning as common nouns too.

Typically, you use to identify the Quran by ?the great reading?, whereas there is no ?great? in the Arabic al quran. When I use the word ?Quran?, instead of the translation ?reading?, I am, like you with the qualifier ?great? emphasizing on the fact I am speaking about a very special and unique reading. This is the basic role of a proper noun.

Actually, literally the word "quran" means "intense/great reading", since the "an" adds intensification (as in "sultan" great/intense authority, as opposed to "sulta"/authority).

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Hello All

Actually the word Rumman (A type of fruit) is a proper noun and on the same wazn as Quran, 5568

Cheers

wildguest1956

Peace JM

In the Quran, the verb samma and its derivatives are always followed by a proper noun.
That implies that the word muslim, in the verse (but not necessarily in all the verses) has to be seen as a proper noun too.

The word "ism" in Arabic can refer to proper and common nouns. There is nothing in the great reading that suggests otherwise. This is why The God is said to have "attributes" (i.e. common nouns). This is why they are translated.

I was referring to the verb samma.
See http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6422.msg99227#msg99227

Each community of people has a name, and, in the verse , God has stated that the right name for the community of people who have decided to submit to God is ?Muslim?. This is the way I understand it.
Since the Quran is in the Arabic language, God has given an Arabic word. God could have used the language of Abraham, or the language of Moses, but He has chosen the Arabic language.
It is true the proper nouns are usually not translated, but there are exceptions. Allah is a translation, Isa too. In the same manner, the names of the towns are usually translated.

Allah is not a translation in English. It is a transliteration like Ayman. Isa is also a transliteration in English. People transliterate Allah because they wrongly take it as a proper name.

I was meaning that allah is a translation of its equivalent word(s) in the bible.

I know you will disagree with almost 100% of this post, but this is my opinion. For me, Allah, Quran, Muslim, and Islam are proper names, although they can be seen as common names too?

The word "allah" is certainly not a proper name according to the great reading. We hear in one passage (I don't remember the number now) "huwa allah fi alsamawat wa al-ard...". Such constructs with the pointing device "huwa" are not used with proper names so "allah" is definitely a common noun. In fact, the meaning intended is "huwa al-ilah fi alsamawat wa alard" (he is the god in the heavens and the earth).

As I have said, I see no problem for a word to be used as a common noun in some places, and as a proper noun in other ones.
It can be used as a proper noun when it refers to something unique and special. Like the word ?god? in English in the sentence "There can be many gods, but there is only one God."
See also the word ?right? here http//www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Similraly, the word "quran" refers to other readings and is used in passages such as 1778 where it cannot be a proper name. The same goes for "muslim" and "islam".

Proper nouns (also called proper names) are the names of unique entities. For example, "Janet", "Jupiter" and "Germany" are proper nouns. Proper nouns are capitalized in English and most other languages that use the Latin alphabet, and this is one easy way to recognise them. This fails, however, in German, in which nouns of all types are capitalized.
All other nouns are called common nouns. For example, "girl", "planet", and "country" are common nouns.
Sometimes the same word can function as both a common noun and a proper noun, where one such entity is special. For example "There can be many gods, but there is only one God."
The common meaning of the word or words constituting a proper noun may be unrelated to the object to which the proper noun refers. For example, someone might be named "Tiger Smith" despite being neither a tiger nor a smith. For this reason, proper nouns are usually not translated between languages, although they may be transliterated. For example, the German surname Kn?del becomes Knodel or Knoedel in English (not the literal Dumpling). However, the translation of placenames and the names of monarchs, popes, and non-contemporary authors is common and sometimes universal. For instance, the Portuguese word Lisboa becomes Lisbon in English; the English London becomes Londres in French; and the Greek Aristotels becomes Aristotle in English.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_noun

Phonetic adjustment and distortions during transliteration from one language to another is not translation.

Yes, indeed?

Allah, Quran, and Muslim are special and unique entities. In every language, special and unique entities are given a proper name.
Therefore I see nothing wrong for these words to be proper nouns, despite they can have a meaning as common nouns too.

Typically, you use to identify the Quran by ?the great reading?, whereas there is no ?great? in the Arabic al quran. When I use the word ?Quran?, instead of the translation ?reading?, I am, like you with the qualifier ?great? emphasizing on the fact I am speaking about a very special and unique reading. This is the basic role of a proper noun.

Actually, literally the word "quran" means "intense/great reading", since the "an" adds intensification (as in "sultan" great/intense authority, as opposed to "sulta"/authority).

Peace,

Ayman

AB has already given a counter example.
If you think quran should be translated as ?great reading? in every occurrence, then you should correct your article here http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm

IMHO, translating quran by ?great reading? in verses like gives a strange result.

We have sent it down an Arabic great reading (quran), perhaps you will be logical.

Peace

ayman

Peace JM,

AB has already given a counter example.

Unfortunately, all that AB gave is another example of how he is clueless about Classical Arabic. The word "ruman" in 5568 comes from the root "RMN" so the Arabic letter "noon" is part of the root. Thus, its weight (wazn) is Fu3AL NOT Fu3LAN like "quran" (root "QR'A&quot.

If you think quran should be translated as ?great reading? in every occurrence, then you should correct your article here http//www.free-minds.org/articles/gods_system/name.htm

The article was written a while back and I am sure that it needs some corrections.

IMHO, translating quran by ?great reading? in verses like gives a strange result.
We have sent it down an Arabic great reading (quran), perhaps you will be logical.

I don't see anything strange in the translation. If you see that the translation doesn't sound correct, this is not an issue because I am 100% open to better translations. So the question becomes what is a good translation for the Arabic word "quran". This is a legitimate question and I fully support trying to find a better translation.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Hey JM

I never heard of the a three letter word called (r m n), it sounds that someone else is the clueless not me, however as you just said, translating it great reading in many smakes a child laughs

Cheers

unknownuser

Hey JM

here is another example for you mate, "Rihan" is a proper name for a type of flower and ends with An, 5512

Cheers