5:72-73
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Salaam all
quote from Nadeem
The above verses tell us Abraham when he took a planet, the moon, the sun as gods, and then rejected them and turned to God. Clearly, at a point Abraham did take partners with god, even if for just a brief period.
But then the quran says
16120 Abraham was a nation, devoted to God, a monotheist, and he was not of those who set up partners.But according to 676-79 he was of those who set up partners.
Abraham was searching for a "God" to represent his monotheitic idea, not to add to a "god" he had in mind. I do not understand this as "taking partner", but as searching for a "representation".The verses 676-79 explain that.
Back to your original question. Suppose that I believe in the evolution theory. Can you say that (Samia says man evolved from a unicellular creation) ? This makes me the author of this theory. The same thing goes here. Those who say Jesus is the son of God are those who laid this theory, protected it and insisted on it,and they even destroyed anything that proves it wrong. Otherwise , we are equating between them and someone who was born in a society that holds this belief . Or like equating my illiterate grandparents who were to believe in hadiths and all the garbage it entails, with Bukhari and the likes. And maybe the sin is not theirs, but of those who know the truth but do not thrive to reveal it (Muslims for example)
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Hi again brother,
Hello mate
676 When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not like those that disappear."
677 So when he saw the moon rising, he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "If my Lord will not guide me, then I will be amongst the wicked people!"
678 So when he saw the sun rising, he said "This is my Lord, this is bigger." But when it disappeared he said "My people, I am innocent of that which you have set up."
679 "I shall turn my face to the One who initiated the heavens and the Earth, in monotheism, and I am not of those who set up partners."
The above verses tell us Abraham when he took a planet, the moon, the sun as gods, and then rejected them and turned to God. Clearly, at a point Abraham did take partners with god, even if for just a brief period.
The Quran aloners has some serious issue regarding the story of Ibrahim, they think that he took the sun or the moon or a planet as his God, absolutely not in fact the verse are very clear that he never done that let me bring the Arabic verse here and walk you through it
74 Lo! Abraham said to his father Azar Takest thou idols for gods? For I see thee and thy people in manifest error.
75 So also did We show Abraham the power and the laws of the heavens and the earth, that he might (with understanding) have certitude.
76 When the night covered him over, He saw a star He said "This is my Lord. But when it set, He said I love not those that set.
77 When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said This is my Lord. But when the moon set, He said unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray.
78 When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said "This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all). But when the sun set, he said O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.
79 For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah.
80 His people disputed with him. He said (Come) ye to dispute with me, about Allah, when He (Himself) hath guided me? I fear not (the beings) ye associate with Allah Unless my Lord willeth, (nothing can happen). My Lord comprehendeth in His knowledge all things. Will ye not (yourselves) be admonished?
(74)
(75)
(76)
(77)
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(79)
(80)-> Bro, for you to say that Ibrahim took partners with God is very unfounded, because I could not find no where in the above that Ibrahim did such act, I think Samia hit it on the nail, let?s start with verse 674
-> 74, we read that Ibrahim rejected the statues that his people worshipped as God because it was obvious to a child that these statues are nothing but stones ? Lo! Abraham said to his father Azar Takest thou idols for gods? For I see thee and thy people in manifest error.?, now Ibrahim is without a God, however he was looking for the one God, Allah always guides those who look for Him, Ibrahim on that other hand didn?t have The Quran to guide him as it does with us now, so Ibrahim did it the hard way and Allah helped as we read in the next verse
-> 75, here we read that Allah guided Ibrahim? So also did We show Abraham the power and the laws of the heavens and the earth, that he might (with understanding) have certitude.?
-> 76, this is how Allah guided him ? When the night covered him over,? i..e one day when night fell and the stars appeared, Ibrahim saw a star ?He saw a star?, then Ibrahim (who is looking for His God on his own) thought that star IS HIS ONE AND ONLY GOD, ? He said "This is my Lord.?, now a few hours later when dawn started and the star disappeared ? But when it set," Ibrahim denounced that the star is the one and only God, ? He said I love not those that set?, now Ibrahim within a few hours of thinking that he found the one and only God, become godless again and he kept looking, .
-> 77, same story with the moon ? When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said This is my Lord. But when the moon set, He said unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray.?, clearly in a matter of a few hours after the moon disappeared, he denounced it as the one and only God and as you can see he still kept asking Him for help to guide him
-> 78, same story with the sun? When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all). But when the sun set, he said O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.?, again in a matter of hours after the sunset he denounced her as the one and only God and clearly denied that he is one of the mushrikin
- 79, then he recognised the one and only God ?For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah.? again he confirmed that he is never one of the mushrikin
-> 80, and again he confirmed his knowledge about the one and only God]b ? His people disputed with him. He said (Come) ye to dispute with me, about Allah, when He (Himself) hath guided me?? , see how he confirmed that Allah guided him, then he confirmed that he never fear those who they associated with Allah ?I fear not (the beings) ye associate with Allah Unless my Lord willeth, (nothing can happen). My Lord comprehendeth in His knowledge all things. Will ye not (yourselves) be admonished??
So where exactly bro Ibrahim took another god in addition to the one and only God that he was looking for?
Also where in the verses that we can read that Ibrahim listened then followed Satan as his people were doing?
Therefore Ibrahim was never a mushrik, actually if you add the time that he thought those three things are the one and only God then we are talking under 24 hours bro, and even if you want to tell me that is enough to be a mushrik for one hour, but again Ibrahim never done that because He had no guidance but Allah and the method deployed was using reason and during these hours he was thinking that those 3 things are the one and only god as he saw them
But then the quran says
16120 Abraham was a nation, devoted to God, a monotheist, and he was not of those who set up partners.Of course he was never a mushrik not even for one hour as I explained, also the translation above is flawed it should be ? Abraham was an Imam?, not a nation, this is funny bro
But according to 676-79 he was of those who set up partners.
Abdolutely not unless you want to consider the under 24 hours all up time he though that those three things are the one and only God?, see he was thinking that they are the one and only God, ?dealt individually? , i.e. he was never ever a mushrik
If "setting up partners" means just even uttering belief in a false god, then indeed there seems to be a contradiction between the verses. As Abraham did utter, but despite his uttering, the quran says he was not of those who set up partners. In rashad khalifas translation he uses the wording "Was never".
Ibrahim did not set partners, HE ONLY THOUGHT THAT THEY ARE THE ONE AND ONLY GOD AND QUICKLY DENOUNCED THEM AFTER SEEING HOW THEY SET
THAT IS HOW ALLAH GUIDED IBRAHIM TO HIS PATH
Your Christian friend is insisting on ignoring the guidance sent to her by Allah, and worships a human as a god for years and years, what a difference between her and Ibrahim
It seems to me that "setting up partners" with god is above simple uttering, it must mean something more.
Of course it does
God says he'll never excuse idol worship if upheld to death, but he can excuse all other than that, which includes murder. Brother, does it not sound a little bit weird that god cannot forgive lipservice to idols, but he can forgive murder?
Nadeem
This is a totally different issue man and will need a huge comment, this is not fair, I will try to respond to it later bro, sorry
Salam
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God says he'll never excuse idol worship if upheld to death, but he can excuse all other than that, which includes murder. Brother, does it not sound a little bit weird that god cannot forgive lipservice to idols, but he can forgive murder?
Nadeem
This is a totally different issue man and will need a huge comment, this is not fair, I will try to respond to it later bro, sorry
Salam
Hello bro
I wanted to respond to tis part on that day but ran out of time and it is yet in my mind due to the fact it is not an easy question by any mean, so what I will say is totally a personal opinion and only based on logic, the logic is mine, i can't think or even try to think about any issue from Allah logic point of view because I will never know that if He never told us why He does that?
I know that He said "He can't be questioned in regard to what He does but we will be questioned regarding what we do", I guess the questioning meant in this verse is from Allah logic point of view
so for me trying to answer that question is in no way from Allah logic point of view because I dare not to ask Him about His logic even if that logic is illogical to me.
therefore I will try to answer the question from the human logic point of view and it can be flawed as you know
first of all I need to discuss a mathematical logic with you, I?m sure you know the number ?Infinity?, this number has no value and yet other known numbers can be added to or subtracted from it, for example
Infinity + 1 = Infinity
Infinity ? 1 = Infinity
Infinity + 10000000000000000000000000 = Infinity
Infinity - 10000000000000000000000000 = Infinity
i.e. the number is so huge that even by subtracting a known huge number from it, it will stay so huge that it is not known still
for the verses you are talking about which surely suggest a murderer can be forgiven by Allah as long as he/she is not a mushrik, I also agree that the verse cover any other crime but shirk and indicate that that crime but shirk may be forgiven
I need to ask you then, did the verses suggest that they will be forgiven without any punishment?, THRY NEVER DID
Now let?s assume that the punishment of murder is to stay in hell for eternity.
Why not these verses mean that they will be forgiven after spending some years in there?, i.e. a murderer may stay 25,000,000 years instead of eternity in hell, i.e. Allah will forgive that sinful believer after 25 million years in hell
I?m sure you started to get my logic, the mushrik on the other hand is not entitled to that forgiveness because they ignored Allah warnings regarding Himself, therefore no discounts and the full price must be paid
While 25 million years in hell is bloody huge to bear, I see it compared to eternity as very merciful indeed
Let?s compare the two punishment mathematically
A Mushrik punishment - A sinful believer punishment after forgiveness = the amount of extra humiliation a Mushrik will get
i.e.
Eternity ? 25 millions years (discounted) = amount of extra humiliation a Mushrik will get
i.e.
Infinity ? 25,000,000 = Infinity
Now I have to say, staying 25,000,000 years in hell is so merciful than staying infinity in there
But who wants to even stay one second in there?
Not me bro
I will keep adding my thoughts as they come mate, I still have more to say
Cheers
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Hi Brother Ahmed,
I admire that you make no doubt as to whom has spoken the words you are writing. Keep this up .
And I'm very appreciative that you have taken time to reflect on this question.While the logic based on your premises is sound, the premises themselves are unfounded within your post, maybe you can give them grounds in your reply.
These are some of the unfounded premises you are leaning on
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Forgiveness is not instant
I need to ask you then, did the verses suggest that they will be forgiven without any punishment?, THRY NEVER DID -
Forgiveness does not remove punishment, but reduces it.
Now let?s assume that the punishment of murder is to stay in hell for eternity.
...
Allah will forgive that sinful believer after 25 million years in hell
These are the pillars of your post. If these two are removed, your argument collapses entirely.
In the quran we read
3134 The ones who spend in prosperity and adversity, and who repress anger, and who pardon the people; God loves the good doers.3135 And those who, if they commit any evil, or wrong themselves, they remember God and seek forgiveness for their sins. And who can forgive the sins except God? And they do not persist in what they have done while they know.
3136 To these the reward will be forgiveness from their Lord and estates with rivers flowing underneath, eternally abiding in it. Excellent is the reward of the workers.
Who are "These"? 3134 tells us that "these" are those who do not wrong, and 3135 tells us that "these" also include those who wrong, but repent. In 3136 we read that these, without stated exceptions, will receive the reward of forgivness - The same type of forgiveness which includes "estates with rivers flowing underneath". There is no mention that some of these will first be sent to hell and then brought back. No mention.
In addition, I do not recall any verse that tells of a hell-dweller forgiven. All I've read is that they will abide in forever.
As you see brother, both of you pillars have fallen. While I've not proven that forgiveness is instant, I've shown that it comes in good time before you're sent to hell.
This means that when a muderer is forgiven, that means he is no longer accountable for that deed. He is pardoned, exonerated. If I read you correctly, you suggest that his forgiveness comes from the 25 millions years in hell. However, 3135 shows that forgiveness comes, (as far as evidence shows only) to those who "do not persist in what they have done while they know.". Their repentance entitles forgiveness.
This proves that forgiveness does remove the punishments, instead of simply reducing it.
Brother, to point, you have been trying to explain "How" a murderer is forgiven compared to an idolator. But you have not explained why the idolator is punished harder then the murderer in the firstplace. This was my question.
You do not need to use maths to convince me. Just give me an example where saying "God is three" is worse than killing someone, even someone innocent - which is equal to killing all the people. Brother, how can god forgive the murder of all the people, but cannot forgive saying "god is three".
The only solution, is that idolation, as defined by the quran is at a higher level than sayings. I've read in the quran a lot about idolators. God defines them as killing innocent children because of their idols, persecuting because of religion, harassing and mocking, torturing, deceiving etc. I believe this is the sort of people god is referring to when he says "Those who say god is three".
I agree fully with Samia
Back to your original question. Suppose that I believe in the evolution theory. Can you say that (Samia says man evolved from a unicellular creation) ? This makes me the author of this theory. The same thing goes here. Those who say Jesus is the son of God are those who laid this theory, protected it and insisted on it,and they even destroyed anything that proves it wrong. Otherwise , we are equating between them and someone who was born in a society that holds this belief . Or like equating my illiterate grandparents who were to believe in hadiths and all the garbage it entails, with Bukhari and the likes. And maybe the sin is not theirs, but of those who know the truth but do not thrive to reveal it (Muslims for example)As for "Their works have fallen". I do not believe that good works ever fall e.g become of no benefit to him nor others. However, bad works, the works which they thought were good, have become of no benefit to them. For example the idolator might have believed that persecuting muslims was a good thing as they were protecting their goods. They might have believed that killing the newborn was a good thing as their idols commanded so. It is in this context their works have fallen. I'm sure you are recognize this verses of the quran. If not, I'll try to get for you.
And I agree that for those who done such horrendous deeds, that their minor good deeds will not outweigh the bad ones. But I believe that the good my friend does, will make god forget about her saying "God is three".
My time is up. Father is taking me and my brother to jumma and to recite sura yasin over my deceased grand-grand-father. They believe that the reward of reciting this surah yasing will go to my grand-grand-father. Will it?
Nadeem
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Bro Nadeem
why you want to turn this in into ah argument?
well I was not arguing, I was only sharing unfounded toughts however it makes sense to me
when I argue bro I only use the Quran, unlike you when you argue, you donlt use the Quran and just man made conjectures that has no basis in the Quran
now to make it much easier for you, Allah said he may forgive any sin but shirk, therefore he osunds unjust to you hence bad luck to you, can you bloody do anything about it if that is the case?
if that is the case, you can't so anything about bro, possibly you can cry aloud then
Cheers
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Hi Brother Ahmed,
Forgive me brother, It was not my intention to quarrel. I only tried to analyze your thoughts, so I could respond better.
when I argue bro I only use the Quran, unlike you when you argue, you donlt use the Quran and just man made conjectures that has no basis in the Quran
Brother You're blessed with knowledge about and access to the quran, I'm not. I only have translations and my own reasoning.
I've tried my best to draw my conclusions from the quran. If I've failed then inshallah time will tell me.
now to make it much easier for you, Allah said he may forgive any sin but shirk, therefore he osunds unjust to you hence bad luck to you, can you bloody do anything about it if that is the case?
if that is the case, you can't so anything about bro, possibly you can cry aloud then
Brother why are you getting angry with me?
I cannot do anything to god. But I can try not to misjudge him. I can try not to attribute things which I don't have any knowledge of to him.You have been a great help in this topic. If you think that I'm not getting the point or that I'm not ready to understand. Then we can end this conversation in peace. Though I hope we continue, even though if it's only conjecture we are discussing. Who knows, might we uncover something solid?
Al-salamu alaykum,
Nadeem
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Hi Brother Ahmed,
Peace bro
Forgive me brother, It was not my intention to quarrel. I only tried to analyze your thoughts, so I could respond better.
I didn?t mean quarrel, I only meant arguing, because I was not arguing anything, I only shared my thoughts that only apply to me based on the fact that you directed the question to me, either I don't answer it or try to answer it to the best of my knowledge and when I tried, I only used what convinced me, it will be stupid to use something else that does not convince me.
I was not trying to convince you because this is up to you, what I was trying to show how I reached a reasonable logic to accept that issue you raised, and even if I could not find that logic for me, I would have accepted that issue regardless how illogical it sounds to me, that is what a believer in the true God should do
when I argue bro I only use the Quran, unlike you when you argue, you donlt use the Quran and just man made conjectures that has no basis in the Quran
Brother You're blessed with knowledge about and access to the quran, I'm not. I only have translations and my own reasoning.
I do appreciate this knowledge and try to always share it, but I only share it with those who ask me questions, I don?t volunteer informations bro, this is to always protect myself in this life and after this life, I hate conjectures, therefore I can't see myself promoting it, actually one day I decided that my laws must be one thing and it has to be the Arabic Quran, and this is what i try to increase my knowledge on every day because this is my laws that I apply on myself, , however my main religious role as I see myself is only to fight the doomed enemy of God who ridicule His Quran, this is where I will deploy my Quran knowledge that Allah has given to me.
I've tried my best to draw my conclusions from the quran. If I've failed then inshallah time will tell me.
The matter was explained with ease in the Quran
- Allah forgive whom He wishes and punishes whom He wishes
- Allah does what He desires
- Allah can?t be questioned in the account to what He does
- Humans don?t know and Allah is the Most knowledgeable
The above is a clear answer to your question on why Allah may forgive a sinful believer and not a mushrik
I believe you and most people on earth accept strange laws from humans, why then they can?t accept it from God assuming that it sounds strange to them as these human laws?
Let me give you an example
If you get caught with 15 grams dope in Australia you will get a warning, if you get caught in Egypt you may get 3 years in jail and if you get caught in Singapore you may get executed
It is the same crime, the same human but different law makers, it does not sound fair to me that someone gets executed for that crime and on another place he/she will get a slap on the hand for the same crime, however, smart humans who go to any of these countries will obey that law and accept it regardless fair/not fair from their perspectives, anyone who does not respect these laws and gets caught must pay the penalty according to each of these countries, remember that the crime is the same
So if you accept that flaw from the humans because they are the ones who iare in charge in creating that law, why you find it hard to accept your God laws even if it looks illogical to you?
The fact can?t be denied, you think that the act is illogical from your perspective however from the law makers point of view it has to be logical, that is why they created it as such in each country. then implemented with no mercy.
Therefore, the act must be logical and Haqq by Allah FROM His perspective, now the question is, can we really understand His perspective to absolutely find a logical reason from our perspective to justify this act?, I guess we will know it and Allah told us that we will know it and accept it as logical but this will happen on the JD, I can show you the verses but I have to find it first.
Now those who kill young drug smugglers in Singapore, does the international law considers them murderers?, of course not, even with the loud opposition that some governments show against capital punishment
Here is something very ironic, these flawed human laws that we accept, if we don?t know it in advance and get caught, WE STILL HAVE TO PAY THE PENALTY, on the other hand, we see Allah is telling us that He can?t punish those who didn?t receive the warning
See the huge difference?, and yet you accept the flawed humans laws and have no difficulty in comprehending it and implementing it, while on the other hand you failed to do the same with your creator Laws.
now to make it much easier for you, Allah said he may forgive any sin but shirk, therefore he osunds unjust to you hence bad luck to you, can you bloody do anything about it if that is the case?
if that is the case, you can't do anything about bro, possibly you can cry aloud then
Brother why are you getting angry with me?
No bro, I only started to get argumentative and that is what I didn?t want to do regarding sharing my personal thoughts
I only argue the Quran in here bro, that?s all
What between me and everyone here is the Quran, as it should be between everyone and others on this web site, it is a shame that others loose it and start making personal attacks that has nothing to do with the Quran,
It takes two to tango and I will be happy to tango with those who attack me personally, I try first to dismiss them and if they don?t refrain, I resort to my other tactics and I have plenty
So please don?t ever think that you belong to these bunch of members, I respect you and consider you a younger brother to me
I cannot do anything to god. But I can try not to misjudge him.
He warned you in the Quran to say things about Him that you don?t know, and if we do then we are following Satan because that is what Satan wants us to do, to say about Allah lies and non sense, this is written in the Quran bro
I can try not to attribute things which I don't have any knowledge of to him.
Exactly and that is what I always try to do
You have been a great help in this topic. If you think that I'm not getting the point or that I'm not ready to understand. Then we can end this conversation in peace.
Not really, I was not just ready to argue my personal thoughts but I?m always ready to argue any Quran verse, so if you want to get into it let?s do it with Quran alone, I don?t like to argue my own logic that I used to convince myself
I use numbers by the way because I love numbers, for me the world is a simple equation which is 1 + 1 = 2 and you will see me always using numbers and percentages to add merit to my arguments, this is why I?m a code 19 rejector because when I put its numbers under the microscope I found it full of non sense and contradictions, it does not comply with my simple rule 1 + 1 = 2 that is the basis of my life and I believe Allah told us that He made the religion easy
Though I hope we continue, even though if it's only conjecture we are discussing. Who knows, might we uncover something solid?
Of course I?m happy to continue and I will look for Quran verses to see if we can find a compelling answer in addition to the 4 points I mentioned earlier
Al-salamu alaykum,
Nadeem
Take care bro
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Salaam nadeem
Maybe if we understand the meaning of "shirk", we will understand why it is unforgiven. The message , or system, of God is to abide with His rules known as "the Straight Path" (verses 6151-153), and other commands set in the Qur'aan . This siratul mustaqeem is the foundation of the submission to God. Setting a by-law that contradicts or annuls any of these rules is shirk Killing an innocent life is a shirk, because God says He did not set any justification for that, and hence we find this in verse493.This goes to all God's commands; cheating in trade because "the market so requires"; being unfair to orphans or eating what is donated to them by charities; or abrogating the verse of the Legacy by a hadith, or twisting the meaning of inheritance verses so as to pass some of the inheritance to relatives not mentioned in these verses; setting pornography industries...etc Even "muslims" can be mushriks, by abrogating God's commands by hadiths. Shirk is an active behaviour, not just lip service. Lip service falls within this category in verses 2225; 589.
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If someone make partner to God (law, kingdom, devoters) eventhough he feels as a religionist, he would never be regarded as believer
QS.5/68 Say "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord. "It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
QS.6/88 This is the Guidance of Allah He giveth that guidance to whom He pleaseth of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be vain for them.
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salam nadeem
here is what the quran says about the christians and their beliefs
5116 AND LO! God said O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, `Worship me and my mother as deities beside God'?" answered "Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! It would not have been possible for me to say what I had no right to ! Had I said this, Thou wouldst indeed have known it! Thou knowest all that is within myself, whereas I know not what is in Thy Self. Verily, it is Thou alone who fully knowest all the things that are beyond the reach of a created being's perception.
5118 If thou cause them to suffer - verily, they are Thy servants; and if Thou forgive them - verily, Thou alone art almighty, truly wise!"
5119 God will say "Today, their truthfulness shall benefit all who have been true to their word theirs shall be gardens through which running waters flow, therein to abide beyond the count of time; well-pleased is God with them, and well-pleased are they with Him this is the triumph supreme."
SO it seems God can forgive them and enter paradise,
I believe the only ones who are kaffirs are the ones who follow their believes even after acknowledging the truth, and knowing that their believes are wrong and try to convince others to follow them
since a kaffir is someone who covers the truth