5:72-73
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Peace everyone!
I ask for help on understanding these verses.
572
Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is the Messiah son of Mary!" And the Messiah said "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets-up partners with God, then God will forbid Paradise for him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."573
Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is a trinity!" There is no god but One god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.What does these verses mean?
Are they labeling everyone who says "God is a trinity" or "God is the Messiah son of Mary!" as disbelievers?
Does that mean that my friend who is a devoted christian, yet the most caring person I've met and probably a better person than myself, a disbeliever?
397
If you disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone. But He dislikes to see His servants make the wrong decision. If you decide to be appreciative, He is pleased for you. No soul bears the sins of any other soul. Ultimately, to your Lord is your return, then He will inform you of everything you had done. He is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.1625
They will be held responsible for their sins on the Day of Resurrection, all of them, in addition to sins of all those whom they misled by their ignorance. What a miserable load!Either 397 and 1625 are contradicting, or they are explaining eachother. I believe the latter.
I wan't to know Is the one who is mislead by other to commit acts of disbelief, a disbeliever himself? Is he eligible to admission in 'hell' according to the quran?
Considering the above, I'd say no.
This is why 379 clearly says that No One will bear the sins of another. Yet 1625 says that those mislead others, will bear the sins of those whom they mislead. This can only mean that the persons who were mislead, are not responsible for their sins and their sins are not upon their souls. Rather, their sins and actions are the responsibility of those who brainwashed them.
This means that 572-3 is not referring to those person who have simply upheld the notion of trinity, but those who mislead into believing this. This raises the issue from condemning "religious belief" to condemning "willful and intentional deception".
Something about 573 that might confirm this, but i'm unsure.
If we reread 573, it says
573
Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is a trinity!" There is no god but One god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.Why is god saying "Those who reject from among them" (who says "God is a trinity"?
Implying that there is those who reject, and those who do not, among them.If everyone who says "God is a trinity" is a rejecter, why doesn't god say "These who reject will be afflicted"?
I hope you see the difference.
However, I do believe that once a person is shown that the trinity is falsehood and recognizes it as falsehood, yet still submit to it. Then he is a disbeliever. Not because he believes in the trinity, but because by believing in what he knows to be false, he is intentionally enforcing a deception and covering the truth. This again raises the issue far above a simple religious belief, to intentionally misleading others.
God knows what sins people have done believing that Jesus was god.
Note this is not an attempt to defend christians. I believe they have brains, and will be asked if they used them or not. This is but a sincere attemt to understand the true meaning of the term "kafir".
Nadeem
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Peace everyone!
I ask for help on understanding these verses.
572
Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is the Messiah son of Mary!" And the Messiah said "O Children of Israel, serve God, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever sets-up partners with God, then God will forbid Paradise for him, and his destiny will be the Fire; and the wicked will have no supporters."573
Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is a trinity!" There is no god but One god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.What does these verses mean?
Peace bro
Simply bro it means if any Christian insist on his/her non sense after receiving this message form their God then he/she will be doomed and will deserve no mercy from Allah
Are they labeling everyone who says "God is a trinity" or "God is the Messiah son of Mary!" as disbelievers?
Absolutely
Does that mean that my friend who is a devoted christian, yet the most caring person I've met and probably a better person than myself, a disbeliever?
Yes and according to Allah they will be doomed, they listened to Satan to say about Allah what they don?t know and on top of that they rejected the Quran message that part of is explicitly directed to them to repent
397
If you disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone. But He dislikes to see His servants make the wrong decision. If you decide to be appreciative, He is pleased for you. No soul bears the sins of any other soul. Ultimately, to your Lord is your return, then He will inform you of everything you had done. He is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.1625
They will be held responsible for their sins on the Day of Resurrection, all of them, in addition to sins of all those whom they misled by their ignorance. What a miserable load!Either 397 and 1625 are contradicting, or they are explaining eachother. I believe the latter.
No contradiction whatsoever bro, the law is simple ? No soul bears the sins of any other soul?, however those who mislead others, their crime has a certain punishment which is to carry out in addition to sins of all those whom they misled by their ignorance, this does not mean in any way that the ones who followed them will have no sins any more, they will still be punished but only according to their crimes of following others astray, the others who caused those followers to follow them with ignorance will be punished twice, firstly for the crime of committing any sins as well for the sins they make others commit, do you get it mate?
I wan't to know Is the one who is mislead by other to commit acts of disbelief, a disbeliever himself? Is he eligible to admission in 'hell' according to the quran?
Yes, I will bring the verses later tonight,
Considering the above, I'd say no.
No bro, it is a yes
This is why 379 clearly says that No One will bear the sins of another. Yet 1625 says that those mislead others, will bear the sins of those whom they mislead. This can only mean that the persons who were mislead, are not responsible for their sins and their sins are not upon their souls. Rather, their sins and actions are the responsibility of those who brainwashed them.
No bro, I will bring the verses that will reply to your argument soon
This means that 572-3 is not referring to those person who have simply upheld the notion of trinity, but those who mislead into believing this. This raises the issue from condemning "religious belief" to condemning "willful and intentional deception".
Sorry bro what you said above is false, anyone who will say Allah has a son is a kafir and must oay for that sin however the ones who caused others to believe as such will pay their dues sort of double because they mislead others, the others can?t be excused because Allah gave them a brain and a Quran.
Something about 573 that might confirm this, but i'm unsure.
If we reread 573, it says
573
Rejecters indeed are those who have said "God is a trinity!" There is no god but One god. If they do not cease from what they are saying, then those who reject from among them will be afflicted with a painful retribution.Why is god saying "Those who reject from among them" (who says "God is a trinity"?
I.e. reject the warning of the Quran that they should stop saying a such and believe in the last message
Implying that there is those who reject, and those who do not, among them.
That?s right, those Christians who has been guided by Allah and accepted Islam, hence they stopped saying as such about Allah, all the rest of the Christians will meet their fate on the JD that was detailed in the Quran
If everyone who says "God is a trinity" is a rejecter, why doesn't god say "These who reject will be afflicted"?
The message was not for mankind it was only directed to the Christians or anyone who claim that God is a trinity, also the saying here by then does not have to be verbally rather an internal belief i.e. THEY SAY IT TO THEMSELVES
I hope you see the difference.
No difference bro, sorry
However, I do believe that once a person is shown that the trinity is falsehood and recognizes it as falsehood, yet still submit to it. Then he is a disbeliever. Not because he believes in the trinity, but because by believing in what he knows to be false, he is intentionally enforcing a deception and covering the truth. This again raises the issue far above a simple religious belief, to intentionally misleading others.
Not sure what you are trying to say bro, please try to get rid of the feel good religion attitude that is only Satanic, any human who believe based on following others or based on their own mind that Allah has a son or He is a trinity is a kafir and must pay a very tough price for their crime.
God knows what sins people have done believing that Jesus was god.
If course He knows and He does not change His laws that He told us about
Note this is not an attempt to defend christians. I believe they have brains, and will be asked if they used them or not. This is but a sincere attemt to understand the true meaning of the term "kafir".
Nadeem
Exactly, thanks for making my point, I believe they have brains, and will be asked if they used them or not.
I will bring the verses soon bro
Cheers
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Hello bro
Here is the verses whichwill prove that your friend is doomed if he dies a kafir, regardless he was a follower of someone or a self follower
66- On the day when their faces shall be turned back into the fire, they shall say O would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!
67- And they shall say O our Lord! surely we obeyed our leaders and our great men, so they led us astray from the path;
68- O our Lord! give them a double punishment and curse them with a great curse.
(66)
(67)
(6-> On the JD, when hell is brought in clear view to all of us?On the day when their faces shall be turned back into the fire,?, your friend will say ? they shall say O would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!?
-> You friend will also try to blame those whom he followed ?And they shall say O our Lord! surely we obeyed our leaders and our great men, so they led us astray from the path;?
-> Then your friend will curse those whom he followed, ?O our Lord! give them a double punishment and curse them with a great curse.?, obviously he will be cursing those whom he followed by seeking double the punishment for them, this means that he is in a very desperate situation indeed that surely means he has to pay his dues despite he has been following others.
Now it becomes a bit interesting, it is sort of a chain, each people mislead the ones after them, now we see how the last ones who entered hell will seek double the punishment for the first ones who entered hell, this means that the blame kept going and going between adjacent generations and logically speaking the most to take the blame is the first ones hence the l ast ones asked double the punishment for them as if the evil spread from them, the reply however was, (BOTH WILL GET DOUBLE THE PUNISHMENT)
He will say Enter into fire among the nations that have passed away before you from among jinn and men; whenever a nation shall enter, it shall curse its sister, until when they have all come up with one another into it; the last of them shall say with regard to the foremost of them Our Lord! these led us astray therefore give them a double chastisement of the fire. He will say Every one shall have double but you do not know.
(3
-> See, those who followed will blame those who have been followed ? the last of them shall say with regard to the foremost of them Our Lord! these led us astray therefore give them a double chastisement of the fire." However both will get double the punishment and they just didn?t know it ? He will say Every one shall have double but you do not know."
It even becomes more interesting, the ones who have been followed will renounce those who followed them
166- When those who were followed shall renounce those who followed (them), and they see the chastisement and their ties are cut asunder.
167- And those who followed shall say Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.
(166)
(167)-> See, ? When those who were followed shall renounce those who followed (them),?, of course this will happen when they see the horrifying fire,
-> Now the ones who followed will respond back and say to Allah, ? And those who followed shall say Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us?, however ? Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.?, i.e. both are staying in the hell fire
The problem bro that humans think they are following other humans like the parents for example, however the fact of the matter according to the Quran can?t be denied and simply all these humans are following Satan calls
And when it is said to them Follow what Allah has revealed, they say Nay, we follow that on which we found our fathers. What! though the Shaitan calls them to the chastisement of the burning fire!
(21)
-> Instead of following what Allah sent to them, they followed what Satan injected in them, thinking that they are following their parents, however the fact is clear that their parents were also following Satan, hence the children will be following Satan, see how it was put beautifully by Allah ? And when it is said to them Follow what Allah has revealed, they say Nay, we follow that on which we found our fathers. What! though the Shaitan calls them to the chastisement of the burning fire!?
Therefore bro, your friend can?t have an excuse even if he is the best person in the world while rejecting Allah final message, possibly you print this comment and give it to him
Salam
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Hi Brother Ahmed,
Thanks for the reply.
You have commented on my every concern, and provided verses to back your claims up. This is very helpful. I'll be checking and studying your comments as my study progresses.
As for now, I have a question for you
608
GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.In the above verse, it's clear that we can be friend with anyone who
A) do not fight us because of our religion.
B) Do not evict us from our homes.This means that my friendship with my christian friend is 100% approved by the quran, because she does not persecute me for my religion, nor does she force me out of my home.
669
O prophet, strive against the rejecters and the hypocrites and be stern with them. Their abode is Hell, and a miserable destiny.I'm not an expert on friendship, but I don't think you can be stern with the persons you have befriended. If rejecters are those who simply say "Jesus is god". Then my question is, should I be friends with this christian, or should I be stern with her?
One other thing, has the word "ghayr-muslim" or "ghayr-mumin" any meaning, and have the terms been used in the quran?
Nadeem
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Hi Brother Ahmed,
Hello mate
Thanks for the reply.
You have commented on my every concern, and provided verses to back your claims up. This is very helpful. I'll be checking and studying your comments as my study progresses.
No worries bro
As for now, I have a question for you
608
GOD does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable.In the above verse, it's clear that we can be friend with anyone who
A) do not fight us because of our religion.
B) Do not evict us from our homes.Absolutely
This means that my friendship with my christian friend is 100% approved by the quran,
Of course
because she does not persecute me for my religion, nor does she force me out of my home.
Exactly
669
O prophet, strive against the rejecters and the hypocrites and be stern with them. Their abode is Hell, and a miserable destiny.I'm not an expert on friendship, but I don't think you can be stern with the persons you have befriended.
This is a different case, firstly we are dealing with a prophet that have no choice but to deliver the message and spread it, therefore whatevber he has done must been an order from Allah
The prophet was involved all his life in sort of struggles/debates regarding God, therefore and as you can see here how tough it can be , we may be having sort of fun on this forum but with the porphet it was his job and the guidlelines for his job was given to him by Allah not by any otyher human.
however I'm sure that the prophet dealt with those who didn't fight him on the account of his religion fair and square, in fact in sure 9 he was even ordered to protect those kuffar who sign a peace treaty with him
If rejecters are those who simply say "Jesus is god". Then my question is, should I be friends with this christian, or should I be stern with her?
yes of course, as long as they donlt insult Allah, the prophets and the Quran, you may be obliged though to inform them with the Quran message
One other thing, has the word "ghayr-muslim" or "ghayr-mumin" any meaning, and have the terms been used in the quran?
never
Nadeem
One final thing to say is this
you can not support your christian friend against any Muslim unless the Muslim is in clear err
cheers
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Peace Brother Ahmed,
Again brother, a full-post from your side. Keep it up. bravo
This is a different case, firstly we are dealing with a prophet that have no choice but to deliver the message and spread it, therefore whatevber he has done must been an order from Allah
The prophet was involved all his life in sort of struggles/debates regarding God, therefore and as you can see here how tough it can be , we may be having sort of fun on this forum but with the porphet it was his job and the guidlelines for his job was given to him by Allah not by any otyher human.
however I'm sure that the prophet dealt with those who didn't fight him on the account of his religion fair and square, in fact in sure 9 he was even ordered to protect those kuffar who sign a peace treaty with him
I share your logic on this. However, the context of 669 does not give grounds for our logic. It's seems to be a general advice.
And, if I've understood you correctly, you argue that 669 ment for when the prophet "struggles/debates regarding God" -And you gave the example of this forum, that further assures me that according to you 669 is about discussions with the rejecters. We are to be stern against hypocrites and rejecters when discussing with them. True?
Then what about this
16125
"Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones.".Brother, from what I've read, I'm leaning towards the interpretation that rejecters and idolators are not necessarily the same.
This article from Wakas http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat_wakas.htm
Where he concludes that idolators can be our "brothers in the system/obligation" while still being idolators.
He has made a good case for himself, and I accept his views.If an idolator is our brother in deen, then how can he at the same time be a rejecter?
Maybe I'm not making any sense, cause I do have difficulties understanding this. But thanks for your patience so far.
yes of course, as long as they donlt insult Allah, the prophets and the Quran, you may be obliged though to inform them with the Quran message
I take it that the "Yes" is a "Yes you can be friends".
How can I deliver the message of the quran when I myself don't know it?
I've tried delivering the quran when I was a sunni. Today I realise that I failed and gave the quran a bad name. I fear that the past might repeat itself.
never
Okay, I'll trust you on this. But does the words themselves have a meaning in classic arabic? And is it synonymous with "Kafir"?
you can not support your christian friend against any Muslim unless the Muslim is in clear err
My friend contributes towards betterment, says good things to the people, is humble, respects my freedom to choose my deen, doesn't brag, tries to be a peacemaker between two parties, respects elders etc.
How is she not a muslim, how has she not submitted to god? Her only mistake is to believe that god is three. Her picture of god is imperfect. Yet, she does not do the deeds which the quran ascribes to the idolaters i.e killing children, disrespecting believers in the quran, mocking the quran, harassing believers etc. None has a perfect picture of god, none of us has the remote ability have the perfect picture of god. Yet, when we say god, we think of something that we have defined as god. Whatever that definition is, it doesn't cover god nearly. Yet we think that our understanding of god represents THE god.
Aren't we idolators? The only difference between what we call idolators and ourselves, is that their idols are manifested in stones and images, and our idol is manifested in our minds.
Forgive me brother if I'm getting emotional and dramatic. It's not my intent. To me this is issue very serious and brings flashes of the past, as I've felt on my body and mind the rage from those who have kafir defined as anyone who doesn't believe as themselves. I've sweared to never think like them.
Thanks for your patience. peace
Nadeem
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Hi again brother,
676 When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not like those that disappear."
677 So when he saw the moon rising, he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "If my Lord will not guide me, then I will be amongst the wicked people!"
678 So when he saw the sun rising, he said "This is my Lord, this is bigger." But when it disappeared he said "My people, I am innocent of that which you have set up."
679 "I shall turn my face to the One who initiated the heavens and the Earth, in monotheism, and I am not of those who set up partners."
The above verses tell us Abraham when he took a planet, the moon, the sun as gods, and then rejected them and turned to God. Clearly, at a point Abraham did take partners with god, even if for just a brief period.
But then the quran says
16120 Abraham was a nation, devoted to God, a monotheist, and he was not of those who set up partners.But according to 676-79 he was of those who set up partners.
If "setting up partners" means just even uttering belief in a false god, then indeed there seems to be a contradiction between the verses. As Abraham did utter, but despite his uttering, the quran says he was not of those who set up partners. In rashad khalifas translation he uses the wording "Was never".
It seems to me that "setting up partners" with god is above simple uttering, it must mean something more.
God says he'll never excuse idol worship if upheld to death, but he can excuse all other than that, which includes murder. Brother, does it not sound a little bit weird that god cannot forgive lipservice to idols, but he can forgive murder?
Nadeem
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Peace,
One important matter here is, that there is a big difference made between nazarenes and triniterians. The word which is translated falsely with Christian is the word Nazarane, which is the Jewish group where Jesus was born in and were his closest followers and supporters. The term Christian started around 180AD as a mocking name for GreekRoman people who followed a distorted form of Jesus's story and had mixed it with Mitra legends. The term 'christian' is not used in the Quran, God just calls them 'the ones who say God is three' or 'those who say the messiah is God', and they are rejectors, buriers of the truth, kafr.
The Nazarene on the other hand fell apart into sects, and some were having questions on the nature of Jesus, which the Quran refers to. So your friend cannot be a Nazarene, as he doesn't follow one of the main branches of Nazarenes that still excist.
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Hi Arnold Yasin,
Thanks for this information. I'm not sure if I understood though.
The term 'christian' is not used in the Quran, God just calls them 'the ones who say God is three' or 'those who say the messiah is God', and they are rejectors, buriers of the truth, kafr.
So, when the quran says 'the ones who say God is three' it is not referring to people who simply utter the words "God is three", but it refers to a whole group which have been named by their most basic belief?
Nadeem
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Peace,
One important matter here is, that there is a big difference made between nazarenes and triniterians. The word which is translated falsely with Christian is the word Nazarane, which is the Jewish group where Jesus was born in and were his closest followers and supporters. The term Christian started around 180AD as a mocking name for GreekRoman people who followed a distorted form of Jesus's story and had mixed it with Mitra legends. The term 'christian' is not used in the Quran, God just calls them 'the ones who say God is three' or 'those who say the messiah is God', and they are rejectors, buriers of the truth, kafr.
The Nazarene on the other hand fell apart into sects, and some were having questions on the nature of Jesus, which the Quran refers to. So your friend cannot be a Nazarene, as he doesn't follow one of the main branches of Nazarenes that still excist.
Could you give more information about the Nazarenes (maybe in another thread) ?
Do you agree with the description given of them in Wikipedia ?They believed in the resurrection, and in The One God, The Father and his son the Messiah.
he said that though they believed in Christ the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, who suffered under Pontius Pilate, and rose again, "desiring to be both Jews and Christians, they are neither the one nor the other"
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_%28sect%29Peace
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Peace Brother Ahmed,
Peace bro
This is a different case, firstly we are dealing with a prophet that have no choice but to deliver the message and spread it, therefore whatevber he has done must been an order from Allah
The prophet was involved all his life in sort of struggles/debates regarding God, therefore and as you can see here how tough it can be , we may be having sort of fun on this forum but with the porphet it was his job and the guidlelines for his job was given to him by Allah not by any otyher human.
however I'm sure that the prophet dealt with those who didn't fight him on the account of his religion fair and square, in fact in sure 9 he was even ordered to protect those kuffar who sign a peace treaty with him
I share your logic on this. However, the context of 669 does not give grounds for our logic. It's seems to be a general advice.
I can?t see anything in 66.9 that does not share our view, it is a general statement but again in cases of a conflict even just a verbal conflict with thise who challenge the truth as revealed to him in the Quran
There is nothing wrong when being tough with those who challenge Allah message, it is obvious from 66 that the hypocrites are included as well, so the Kuffar and the Hypocrites, the hypocrites sound to me as those fake believers, so the message is in general for those the ones who say they don?t believe and the ones who say they believe but they are hypocrites, all in all if non of these does not challenge Allah message then the prophet should leave them in peace, if they try to oppose the message or show that it is false then a tough stand by the believers just be taken, makes great sense to me.
And, if I've understood you correctly, you argue that 669 ment for when the prophet "struggles/debates regarding God" -And you gave the example of this forum, that further assures me that according to you 669 is about discussions with the rejecters. We are to be stern against hypocrites and rejecters when discussing with them. True?
66.9 is for the prophet and all the believers, and yes we have to be stern with anyone who challenge the final message of our God, there will be no more chances, in fact being stern with them is good for them.
Then what about this
16125
"Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and kind enlightenment, and debate with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path, and He knows best who are the guided ones.".Of course bro and that is what I do, anyone who only asks questions I treat them very kind indeed, anyone who challeneges the message motivated by ignorance and arrogance I HAVE TO BE VERY STERN, makes great sense to me
So if your Christian friend starts to challenge the final message and try to show that it makes no sense then you have to be stern with her, within limits of course not to bash her or strap a bomb on you and kill both of you. Remember that the message is aalso for your friend and they are only committing suicide indeed so you may be the one who should start challenging her for her benefit of course
Brother, from what I've read, I'm leaning towards the interpretation that rejecters and idolators are not necessarily the same.
Any human kafir is a human mushrik because they listened to Satan and followed him over what Allah wanted them to follow, therefore they took Satan as their god, the Quran clearly confirms that
And the Shaitan shall say after the affair is decided Surely Allah promised you the promise of truth, and I gave you promises, then failed to keep them to you, and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me, therefore do not blame me but blame yourselves I cannot be your aider (now) nor can you be my aiders; surely I disbelieved in your associating me with Allah before; surely it is the unjust that shall have the painful punishment.
(22)
-> See Satan will tell all the hell companions ? ; surely I disbelieved in your associating me with Allah before;?, all he has done is ? and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me?, but they should have obeyed Allah of course, therefore they shirked.
This article from Wakas http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat_wakas.htm
Where he concludes that idolators can be our "brothers in the system/obligation" while still being idolators.
He has made a good case for himself, and I accept his views.I have not read it and I don?t agree with many of Wakas views, I think he is still young and needs further Quran studies, I believe it is your case as well, I?m sure both of you are under 20 years old but I maybe wrong, regardless of that I wish you both that may Allah increase you in life and knowledge.
Life is knowledge, the longer you live the longer you should gain knowledge, Mohammad for example was not ordered to be a prophet until he reached age 40, in which I?m sure his knowledge in life was far more than when he was 20 years old
If an idolator is our brother in deen, then how can he at the same time be a rejecter?
In addition to the common knowledge about an idolater, 1422 clearly tells us that any one who obey Satan is an Idolater
Therefore if you see your brother in deen obeying Satan, I guess he/she can?t be your brother in deen any more. It will be enough to take?m as brother in humanity hence you need to advice him that he is obeying Satan
Maybe I'm not making any sense, cause I do have difficulties understanding this. But thanks for your patience so far.
You are making sense, however you are making it harder than what it should be
If you think of it that we are only here for one purpose only which is to pass the test then head for the true life, this should make it much easier to comprehend the responsibility on everyone?s neck and the seriousness behind our existence
yes of course, as long as they donlt insult Allah, the prophets and the Quran, you may be obliged though to inform them with the Quran message
I take it that the "Yes" is a "Yes you can be friends".
Yes
How can I deliver the message of the quran when I myself don't know it?
By giving trhem a copy of the Quran the least
I've tried delivering the quran when I was a sunni. Today I realise that I failed and gave the quran a bad name. I fear that the past might repeat itself.
Just gave them the Quran and leave it to them, remember the day when it comes, you will run away from your parents, your brother and sisters, your friends, your wife and your parents, you won?t care about them then, so concentrate now on yourself regarding the test and how you HAVE to pass it
never
Okay, I'll trust you on this. But does the words themselves have a meaning in classic arabic? And is it synonymous with "Kafir"?
Logically yes, but I NEVER heard of it
you can not support your christian friend against any Muslim unless the Muslim is in clear err
My friend contributes towards betterment, says good things to the people, is humble, respects my freedom to choose my deen, doesn't brag, tries to be a peacemaker between two parties, respects elders etc.
That?s right, here is the verse describing her
103- Say Shall We inform you of the greatest losers in (their) deeds?
104- Those whose effort goeth astray in the life of the world, and yet they reckon that they do good work.
105- Those are they who disbelieve in the revelations of their Lord and in the meeting with Him. Therefor their works are vain, and on the Day of Resurrection We assign no weight to them.
106- That is their reward hell, because they disbelieved, and made a jest of Our revelations and Our messengers.
(103)
(104)
(105)
(106)-> See, or do you want me to explain?
How is she not a muslim, how has she not submitted to god?
Of course she refused to submit to His last warning before the JD and ironically a huge part of that warning directed at her as a Christian, total arrogance bro and Allah does not like the arrogant
Her only mistake is to believe that god is three.
Her fatal mistake that she obeyed Satan who is also mentioned in her Bible
Her picture of god is imperfect. Yet, she does not do the deeds which the quran ascribes to the idolaters i.e killing children, disrespecting believers in the quran, mocking the quran, harassing believers etc. None has a perfect picture of god, none of us has the remote ability have the perfect picture of god. Yet, when we say god, we think of something that we have defined as god. Whatever that definition is, it doesn't cover god nearly. Yet we think that our understanding of god represents THE god.
Our understanding of Allah must be according to what He said about Himself in the Quran not to our low desires and the feel good religion attitude
Aren't we idolators?
Possibly we are if we obey Satan and do the major sin that is not forgiven
]
The only difference between what we call idolators and ourselves, is that their idols are manifested in stones and images, and our idol is manifested in our minds.And who is true?
I guess the one the was based on what he said about Himself, not what the humans made to themselves
Allah has to stay in our mind because the belief is in the mind and He can?t be seen for us yet, but we can see His work with ease, because if He is seen then what is the bloody purpose of testing us to believe in the unseen from the first place?
Forgive me brother if I'm getting emotional and dramatic. It's not my intent. To me this is issue very serious and brings flashes of the past, as I've felt on my body and mind the rage from those who have kafir defined as anyone who doesn't believe as themselves. I've sweared to never think like them.
No worries bro, and I agree with you that the issue is very serious indeed
Thanks for your patience. peace
Nadeem
I have to take my daughter to school and head to work, no time to fix the typos, sorry
Salam
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Hi Arnold Yasin,
Thanks for this information. I'm not sure if I understood though.
The term 'christian' is not used in the Quran, God just calls them 'the ones who say God is three' or 'those who say the messiah is God', and they are rejectors, buriers of the truth, kafr.
So, when the quran says 'the ones who say God is three' it is not referring to people who simply utter the words "God is three", but it refers to a whole group which have been named by their most basic belief?
Nadeem
Peace,
It will only refer to people who believe 'God is three' or say 'the messiah is God' and profess it, these are called rejectors of the truth. No person can fall under it except those who believe and profess it. Doesn't matter if a person is good or not, they're rejectors of the truth, and will by thus make their Self/nafs be stuck in the Fire/illusion, and so they will not progress as their view of reality is distorted by this dogma.
PS. JM i responded to you on this thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6448.msg100073#msg100073
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Salaam all
quote from Nadeem
The above verses tell us Abraham when he took a planet, the moon, the sun as gods, and then rejected them and turned to God. Clearly, at a point Abraham did take partners with god, even if for just a brief period.
But then the quran says
16120 Abraham was a nation, devoted to God, a monotheist, and he was not of those who set up partners.But according to 676-79 he was of those who set up partners.
Abraham was searching for a "God" to represent his monotheitic idea, not to add to a "god" he had in mind. I do not understand this as "taking partner", but as searching for a "representation".The verses 676-79 explain that.
Back to your original question. Suppose that I believe in the evolution theory. Can you say that (Samia says man evolved from a unicellular creation) ? This makes me the author of this theory. The same thing goes here. Those who say Jesus is the son of God are those who laid this theory, protected it and insisted on it,and they even destroyed anything that proves it wrong. Otherwise , we are equating between them and someone who was born in a society that holds this belief . Or like equating my illiterate grandparents who were to believe in hadiths and all the garbage it entails, with Bukhari and the likes. And maybe the sin is not theirs, but of those who know the truth but do not thrive to reveal it (Muslims for example)
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Hi again brother,
Hello mate
676 When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not like those that disappear."
677 So when he saw the moon rising, he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "If my Lord will not guide me, then I will be amongst the wicked people!"
678 So when he saw the sun rising, he said "This is my Lord, this is bigger." But when it disappeared he said "My people, I am innocent of that which you have set up."
679 "I shall turn my face to the One who initiated the heavens and the Earth, in monotheism, and I am not of those who set up partners."
The above verses tell us Abraham when he took a planet, the moon, the sun as gods, and then rejected them and turned to God. Clearly, at a point Abraham did take partners with god, even if for just a brief period.
The Quran aloners has some serious issue regarding the story of Ibrahim, they think that he took the sun or the moon or a planet as his God, absolutely not in fact the verse are very clear that he never done that let me bring the Arabic verse here and walk you through it
74 Lo! Abraham said to his father Azar Takest thou idols for gods? For I see thee and thy people in manifest error.
75 So also did We show Abraham the power and the laws of the heavens and the earth, that he might (with understanding) have certitude.
76 When the night covered him over, He saw a star He said "This is my Lord. But when it set, He said I love not those that set.
77 When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said This is my Lord. But when the moon set, He said unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray.
78 When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said "This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all). But when the sun set, he said O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.
79 For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah.
80 His people disputed with him. He said (Come) ye to dispute with me, about Allah, when He (Himself) hath guided me? I fear not (the beings) ye associate with Allah Unless my Lord willeth, (nothing can happen). My Lord comprehendeth in His knowledge all things. Will ye not (yourselves) be admonished?
(74)
(75)
(76)
(77)
(7
(79)
(80)-> Bro, for you to say that Ibrahim took partners with God is very unfounded, because I could not find no where in the above that Ibrahim did such act, I think Samia hit it on the nail, let?s start with verse 674
-> 74, we read that Ibrahim rejected the statues that his people worshipped as God because it was obvious to a child that these statues are nothing but stones ? Lo! Abraham said to his father Azar Takest thou idols for gods? For I see thee and thy people in manifest error.?, now Ibrahim is without a God, however he was looking for the one God, Allah always guides those who look for Him, Ibrahim on that other hand didn?t have The Quran to guide him as it does with us now, so Ibrahim did it the hard way and Allah helped as we read in the next verse
-> 75, here we read that Allah guided Ibrahim? So also did We show Abraham the power and the laws of the heavens and the earth, that he might (with understanding) have certitude.?
-> 76, this is how Allah guided him ? When the night covered him over,? i..e one day when night fell and the stars appeared, Ibrahim saw a star ?He saw a star?, then Ibrahim (who is looking for His God on his own) thought that star IS HIS ONE AND ONLY GOD, ? He said "This is my Lord.?, now a few hours later when dawn started and the star disappeared ? But when it set," Ibrahim denounced that the star is the one and only God, ? He said I love not those that set?, now Ibrahim within a few hours of thinking that he found the one and only God, become godless again and he kept looking, .
-> 77, same story with the moon ? When he saw the moon rising in splendour, he said This is my Lord. But when the moon set, He said unless my Lord guide me, I shall surely be among those who go astray.?, clearly in a matter of a few hours after the moon disappeared, he denounced it as the one and only God and as you can see he still kept asking Him for help to guide him
-> 78, same story with the sun? When he saw the sun rising in splendour, he said This is my Lord; this is the greatest (of all). But when the sun set, he said O my people! I am indeed free from your (guilt) of giving partners to Allah.?, again in a matter of hours after the sunset he denounced her as the one and only God and clearly denied that he is one of the mushrikin
- 79, then he recognised the one and only God ?For me, I have set my face, firmly and truly, towards Him Who created the heavens and the earth, and never shall I give partners to Allah.? again he confirmed that he is never one of the mushrikin
-> 80, and again he confirmed his knowledge about the one and only God]b ? His people disputed with him. He said (Come) ye to dispute with me, about Allah, when He (Himself) hath guided me?? , see how he confirmed that Allah guided him, then he confirmed that he never fear those who they associated with Allah ?I fear not (the beings) ye associate with Allah Unless my Lord willeth, (nothing can happen). My Lord comprehendeth in His knowledge all things. Will ye not (yourselves) be admonished??
So where exactly bro Ibrahim took another god in addition to the one and only God that he was looking for?
Also where in the verses that we can read that Ibrahim listened then followed Satan as his people were doing?
Therefore Ibrahim was never a mushrik, actually if you add the time that he thought those three things are the one and only God then we are talking under 24 hours bro, and even if you want to tell me that is enough to be a mushrik for one hour, but again Ibrahim never done that because He had no guidance but Allah and the method deployed was using reason and during these hours he was thinking that those 3 things are the one and only god as he saw them
But then the quran says
16120 Abraham was a nation, devoted to God, a monotheist, and he was not of those who set up partners.Of course he was never a mushrik not even for one hour as I explained, also the translation above is flawed it should be ? Abraham was an Imam?, not a nation, this is funny bro
But according to 676-79 he was of those who set up partners.
Abdolutely not unless you want to consider the under 24 hours all up time he though that those three things are the one and only God?, see he was thinking that they are the one and only God, ?dealt individually? , i.e. he was never ever a mushrik
If "setting up partners" means just even uttering belief in a false god, then indeed there seems to be a contradiction between the verses. As Abraham did utter, but despite his uttering, the quran says he was not of those who set up partners. In rashad khalifas translation he uses the wording "Was never".
Ibrahim did not set partners, HE ONLY THOUGHT THAT THEY ARE THE ONE AND ONLY GOD AND QUICKLY DENOUNCED THEM AFTER SEEING HOW THEY SET
THAT IS HOW ALLAH GUIDED IBRAHIM TO HIS PATH
Your Christian friend is insisting on ignoring the guidance sent to her by Allah, and worships a human as a god for years and years, what a difference between her and Ibrahim
It seems to me that "setting up partners" with god is above simple uttering, it must mean something more.
Of course it does
God says he'll never excuse idol worship if upheld to death, but he can excuse all other than that, which includes murder. Brother, does it not sound a little bit weird that god cannot forgive lipservice to idols, but he can forgive murder?
Nadeem
This is a totally different issue man and will need a huge comment, this is not fair, I will try to respond to it later bro, sorry
Salam
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God says he'll never excuse idol worship if upheld to death, but he can excuse all other than that, which includes murder. Brother, does it not sound a little bit weird that god cannot forgive lipservice to idols, but he can forgive murder?
Nadeem
This is a totally different issue man and will need a huge comment, this is not fair, I will try to respond to it later bro, sorry
Salam
Hello bro
I wanted to respond to tis part on that day but ran out of time and it is yet in my mind due to the fact it is not an easy question by any mean, so what I will say is totally a personal opinion and only based on logic, the logic is mine, i can't think or even try to think about any issue from Allah logic point of view because I will never know that if He never told us why He does that?
I know that He said "He can't be questioned in regard to what He does but we will be questioned regarding what we do", I guess the questioning meant in this verse is from Allah logic point of view
so for me trying to answer that question is in no way from Allah logic point of view because I dare not to ask Him about His logic even if that logic is illogical to me.
therefore I will try to answer the question from the human logic point of view and it can be flawed as you know
first of all I need to discuss a mathematical logic with you, I?m sure you know the number ?Infinity?, this number has no value and yet other known numbers can be added to or subtracted from it, for example
Infinity + 1 = Infinity
Infinity ? 1 = Infinity
Infinity + 10000000000000000000000000 = Infinity
Infinity - 10000000000000000000000000 = Infinity
i.e. the number is so huge that even by subtracting a known huge number from it, it will stay so huge that it is not known still
for the verses you are talking about which surely suggest a murderer can be forgiven by Allah as long as he/she is not a mushrik, I also agree that the verse cover any other crime but shirk and indicate that that crime but shirk may be forgiven
I need to ask you then, did the verses suggest that they will be forgiven without any punishment?, THRY NEVER DID
Now let?s assume that the punishment of murder is to stay in hell for eternity.
Why not these verses mean that they will be forgiven after spending some years in there?, i.e. a murderer may stay 25,000,000 years instead of eternity in hell, i.e. Allah will forgive that sinful believer after 25 million years in hell
I?m sure you started to get my logic, the mushrik on the other hand is not entitled to that forgiveness because they ignored Allah warnings regarding Himself, therefore no discounts and the full price must be paid
While 25 million years in hell is bloody huge to bear, I see it compared to eternity as very merciful indeed
Let?s compare the two punishment mathematically
A Mushrik punishment - A sinful believer punishment after forgiveness = the amount of extra humiliation a Mushrik will get
i.e.
Eternity ? 25 millions years (discounted) = amount of extra humiliation a Mushrik will get
i.e.
Infinity ? 25,000,000 = Infinity
Now I have to say, staying 25,000,000 years in hell is so merciful than staying infinity in there
But who wants to even stay one second in there?
Not me bro
I will keep adding my thoughts as they come mate, I still have more to say
Cheers
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Hi Brother Ahmed,
I admire that you make no doubt as to whom has spoken the words you are writing. Keep this up .
And I'm very appreciative that you have taken time to reflect on this question.While the logic based on your premises is sound, the premises themselves are unfounded within your post, maybe you can give them grounds in your reply.
These are some of the unfounded premises you are leaning on
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Forgiveness is not instant
I need to ask you then, did the verses suggest that they will be forgiven without any punishment?, THRY NEVER DID -
Forgiveness does not remove punishment, but reduces it.
Now let?s assume that the punishment of murder is to stay in hell for eternity.
...
Allah will forgive that sinful believer after 25 million years in hell
These are the pillars of your post. If these two are removed, your argument collapses entirely.
In the quran we read
3134 The ones who spend in prosperity and adversity, and who repress anger, and who pardon the people; God loves the good doers.3135 And those who, if they commit any evil, or wrong themselves, they remember God and seek forgiveness for their sins. And who can forgive the sins except God? And they do not persist in what they have done while they know.
3136 To these the reward will be forgiveness from their Lord and estates with rivers flowing underneath, eternally abiding in it. Excellent is the reward of the workers.
Who are "These"? 3134 tells us that "these" are those who do not wrong, and 3135 tells us that "these" also include those who wrong, but repent. In 3136 we read that these, without stated exceptions, will receive the reward of forgivness - The same type of forgiveness which includes "estates with rivers flowing underneath". There is no mention that some of these will first be sent to hell and then brought back. No mention.
In addition, I do not recall any verse that tells of a hell-dweller forgiven. All I've read is that they will abide in forever.
As you see brother, both of you pillars have fallen. While I've not proven that forgiveness is instant, I've shown that it comes in good time before you're sent to hell.
This means that when a muderer is forgiven, that means he is no longer accountable for that deed. He is pardoned, exonerated. If I read you correctly, you suggest that his forgiveness comes from the 25 millions years in hell. However, 3135 shows that forgiveness comes, (as far as evidence shows only) to those who "do not persist in what they have done while they know.". Their repentance entitles forgiveness.
This proves that forgiveness does remove the punishments, instead of simply reducing it.
Brother, to point, you have been trying to explain "How" a murderer is forgiven compared to an idolator. But you have not explained why the idolator is punished harder then the murderer in the firstplace. This was my question.
You do not need to use maths to convince me. Just give me an example where saying "God is three" is worse than killing someone, even someone innocent - which is equal to killing all the people. Brother, how can god forgive the murder of all the people, but cannot forgive saying "god is three".
The only solution, is that idolation, as defined by the quran is at a higher level than sayings. I've read in the quran a lot about idolators. God defines them as killing innocent children because of their idols, persecuting because of religion, harassing and mocking, torturing, deceiving etc. I believe this is the sort of people god is referring to when he says "Those who say god is three".
I agree fully with Samia
Back to your original question. Suppose that I believe in the evolution theory. Can you say that (Samia says man evolved from a unicellular creation) ? This makes me the author of this theory. The same thing goes here. Those who say Jesus is the son of God are those who laid this theory, protected it and insisted on it,and they even destroyed anything that proves it wrong. Otherwise , we are equating between them and someone who was born in a society that holds this belief . Or like equating my illiterate grandparents who were to believe in hadiths and all the garbage it entails, with Bukhari and the likes. And maybe the sin is not theirs, but of those who know the truth but do not thrive to reveal it (Muslims for example)As for "Their works have fallen". I do not believe that good works ever fall e.g become of no benefit to him nor others. However, bad works, the works which they thought were good, have become of no benefit to them. For example the idolator might have believed that persecuting muslims was a good thing as they were protecting their goods. They might have believed that killing the newborn was a good thing as their idols commanded so. It is in this context their works have fallen. I'm sure you are recognize this verses of the quran. If not, I'll try to get for you.
And I agree that for those who done such horrendous deeds, that their minor good deeds will not outweigh the bad ones. But I believe that the good my friend does, will make god forget about her saying "God is three".
My time is up. Father is taking me and my brother to jumma and to recite sura yasin over my deceased grand-grand-father. They believe that the reward of reciting this surah yasing will go to my grand-grand-father. Will it?
Nadeem
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Bro Nadeem
why you want to turn this in into ah argument?
well I was not arguing, I was only sharing unfounded toughts however it makes sense to me
when I argue bro I only use the Quran, unlike you when you argue, you donlt use the Quran and just man made conjectures that has no basis in the Quran
now to make it much easier for you, Allah said he may forgive any sin but shirk, therefore he osunds unjust to you hence bad luck to you, can you bloody do anything about it if that is the case?
if that is the case, you can't so anything about bro, possibly you can cry aloud then
Cheers
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Hi Brother Ahmed,
Forgive me brother, It was not my intention to quarrel. I only tried to analyze your thoughts, so I could respond better.
when I argue bro I only use the Quran, unlike you when you argue, you donlt use the Quran and just man made conjectures that has no basis in the Quran
Brother You're blessed with knowledge about and access to the quran, I'm not. I only have translations and my own reasoning.
I've tried my best to draw my conclusions from the quran. If I've failed then inshallah time will tell me.
now to make it much easier for you, Allah said he may forgive any sin but shirk, therefore he osunds unjust to you hence bad luck to you, can you bloody do anything about it if that is the case?
if that is the case, you can't so anything about bro, possibly you can cry aloud then
Brother why are you getting angry with me?
I cannot do anything to god. But I can try not to misjudge him. I can try not to attribute things which I don't have any knowledge of to him.You have been a great help in this topic. If you think that I'm not getting the point or that I'm not ready to understand. Then we can end this conversation in peace. Though I hope we continue, even though if it's only conjecture we are discussing. Who knows, might we uncover something solid?
Al-salamu alaykum,
Nadeem
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Hi Brother Ahmed,
Peace bro
Forgive me brother, It was not my intention to quarrel. I only tried to analyze your thoughts, so I could respond better.
I didn?t mean quarrel, I only meant arguing, because I was not arguing anything, I only shared my thoughts that only apply to me based on the fact that you directed the question to me, either I don't answer it or try to answer it to the best of my knowledge and when I tried, I only used what convinced me, it will be stupid to use something else that does not convince me.
I was not trying to convince you because this is up to you, what I was trying to show how I reached a reasonable logic to accept that issue you raised, and even if I could not find that logic for me, I would have accepted that issue regardless how illogical it sounds to me, that is what a believer in the true God should do
when I argue bro I only use the Quran, unlike you when you argue, you donlt use the Quran and just man made conjectures that has no basis in the Quran
Brother You're blessed with knowledge about and access to the quran, I'm not. I only have translations and my own reasoning.
I do appreciate this knowledge and try to always share it, but I only share it with those who ask me questions, I don?t volunteer informations bro, this is to always protect myself in this life and after this life, I hate conjectures, therefore I can't see myself promoting it, actually one day I decided that my laws must be one thing and it has to be the Arabic Quran, and this is what i try to increase my knowledge on every day because this is my laws that I apply on myself, , however my main religious role as I see myself is only to fight the doomed enemy of God who ridicule His Quran, this is where I will deploy my Quran knowledge that Allah has given to me.
I've tried my best to draw my conclusions from the quran. If I've failed then inshallah time will tell me.
The matter was explained with ease in the Quran
- Allah forgive whom He wishes and punishes whom He wishes
- Allah does what He desires
- Allah can?t be questioned in the account to what He does
- Humans don?t know and Allah is the Most knowledgeable
The above is a clear answer to your question on why Allah may forgive a sinful believer and not a mushrik
I believe you and most people on earth accept strange laws from humans, why then they can?t accept it from God assuming that it sounds strange to them as these human laws?
Let me give you an example
If you get caught with 15 grams dope in Australia you will get a warning, if you get caught in Egypt you may get 3 years in jail and if you get caught in Singapore you may get executed
It is the same crime, the same human but different law makers, it does not sound fair to me that someone gets executed for that crime and on another place he/she will get a slap on the hand for the same crime, however, smart humans who go to any of these countries will obey that law and accept it regardless fair/not fair from their perspectives, anyone who does not respect these laws and gets caught must pay the penalty according to each of these countries, remember that the crime is the same
So if you accept that flaw from the humans because they are the ones who iare in charge in creating that law, why you find it hard to accept your God laws even if it looks illogical to you?
The fact can?t be denied, you think that the act is illogical from your perspective however from the law makers point of view it has to be logical, that is why they created it as such in each country. then implemented with no mercy.
Therefore, the act must be logical and Haqq by Allah FROM His perspective, now the question is, can we really understand His perspective to absolutely find a logical reason from our perspective to justify this act?, I guess we will know it and Allah told us that we will know it and accept it as logical but this will happen on the JD, I can show you the verses but I have to find it first.
Now those who kill young drug smugglers in Singapore, does the international law considers them murderers?, of course not, even with the loud opposition that some governments show against capital punishment
Here is something very ironic, these flawed human laws that we accept, if we don?t know it in advance and get caught, WE STILL HAVE TO PAY THE PENALTY, on the other hand, we see Allah is telling us that He can?t punish those who didn?t receive the warning
See the huge difference?, and yet you accept the flawed humans laws and have no difficulty in comprehending it and implementing it, while on the other hand you failed to do the same with your creator Laws.
now to make it much easier for you, Allah said he may forgive any sin but shirk, therefore he osunds unjust to you hence bad luck to you, can you bloody do anything about it if that is the case?
if that is the case, you can't do anything about bro, possibly you can cry aloud then
Brother why are you getting angry with me?
No bro, I only started to get argumentative and that is what I didn?t want to do regarding sharing my personal thoughts
I only argue the Quran in here bro, that?s all
What between me and everyone here is the Quran, as it should be between everyone and others on this web site, it is a shame that others loose it and start making personal attacks that has nothing to do with the Quran,
It takes two to tango and I will be happy to tango with those who attack me personally, I try first to dismiss them and if they don?t refrain, I resort to my other tactics and I have plenty
So please don?t ever think that you belong to these bunch of members, I respect you and consider you a younger brother to me
I cannot do anything to god. But I can try not to misjudge him.
He warned you in the Quran to say things about Him that you don?t know, and if we do then we are following Satan because that is what Satan wants us to do, to say about Allah lies and non sense, this is written in the Quran bro
I can try not to attribute things which I don't have any knowledge of to him.
Exactly and that is what I always try to do
You have been a great help in this topic. If you think that I'm not getting the point or that I'm not ready to understand. Then we can end this conversation in peace.
Not really, I was not just ready to argue my personal thoughts but I?m always ready to argue any Quran verse, so if you want to get into it let?s do it with Quran alone, I don?t like to argue my own logic that I used to convince myself
I use numbers by the way because I love numbers, for me the world is a simple equation which is 1 + 1 = 2 and you will see me always using numbers and percentages to add merit to my arguments, this is why I?m a code 19 rejector because when I put its numbers under the microscope I found it full of non sense and contradictions, it does not comply with my simple rule 1 + 1 = 2 that is the basis of my life and I believe Allah told us that He made the religion easy
Though I hope we continue, even though if it's only conjecture we are discussing. Who knows, might we uncover something solid?
Of course I?m happy to continue and I will look for Quran verses to see if we can find a compelling answer in addition to the 4 points I mentioned earlier
Al-salamu alaykum,
Nadeem
Take care bro