In which Religion where you Brought Up?And What are you Right Now?
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Easy andy and zenje. Andy; I have probably been on this free-thinking humanist and atheist vibe since the start of the year...I will either send you a Pm,or post my 'new' journey on the site...
Zenje; By non-existant i dont mean having no reality at all,i mean he doesnt exist as people describe him.(ie all-powerful,all merciful etc...) ,but of course the word/concept of god exists...
With regard to worshipping/following/believing of any 'other' existing god,well i just try to do the best i can with making myself and others happy,and not harming people...I also dont hold peoples beliefs against them,unless they oppress others wrongfully...To me the goal is long and short term happiness/peace of self and others,not pacifying or serving a deity... -
Easy andy and zenje. Andy; I have probably been on this free-thinking humanist and atheist vibe since the start of the year...I will either send you a Pm,or post my 'new' journey on the site...
It is better if you post your journey to "free-thinking humanist atheist" on the site. There might be others who want to know as well. Just post the link here in this thread to inform me.
If I may suggest, you should reconsider your rejection of God.
We have two choices
- Believe in God
- Disbelieve in God
If God didn't exist, nothing would happen to believers and disbelievers. And if God exists, disbelievers will have "big trouble" while believers will have "big rewards".
Do you have good reasons to choose "risky" path with possible regretful consequences while you can choose "safe" path with possible immense rewards?
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Peace
Do you have good reasons to choose "risky" path with possible regretful consequences while you can choose "safe" path with possible immense rewards?
seeing like that, enquirer would be braver and more genuine than the people who choose the other path because it is safe, and subsequently, since intentions count, he would be more easily eligible for the "reward"
The latent subject under all of this is, in my opinion, the concept each one has about God.
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Peace Elena,
seeing like that, enquirer would be braver and more genuine than the people who choose the other path because it is safe, and subsequently, since intentions count, he would be more easily eligible for the "reward"
Could you bring verses in quran which say those who disbelieve in God are sincere and hence will be rewarded?
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Peace Andy
Could you bring verses in quran which say those who disbelieve in God are sincere and hence will be rewarded?
what quran says is that hypocrites will have a painful chastisement.
I meant in my post that choosing option 1 to get the reward and escape punishment is not honest.
Please, if quran says it is correct let me know. -
Peace Elena,
Peace Andy
what quran says is that hypocrites will have a painful chastisement.
Is believing in God hypocrisy?
I meant in my post that choosing option 1 to get the reward and escape punishment is not honest.
What do you mean by not honest? It is very logical that God will punish or reward us. And it is illogical that God neither punish nor reward us because all these tests will be senseless then.
Last but not least, it is even much more illogical to disbelieve in God. Well, regarding this just let us see whether enquirer has good reasons for disbelieving in God.
Please, if quran says it is correct let me know.
How do you understand for examples these verses?
3133 And vie with one another to attain to your Sustainer's forgiveness and to a paradise as vast as the heavens and the earth, which has been readied for the God-conscious
2123 Have fear of the day when every soul will be responsible for itself, no ransom will be accepted for it, no intercession will be of any benefit to it and no one will receive any help.
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Peace splatter,
Andy last but not least, it is even much more illogical to disbelieve in God.
Peace,
Why is it more illogical to disbelieve in god? I am curious of your reason for saying this.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=6563.msg101174#msg101174
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peace Andy,
you are suggesting that we should "believe in God" just to be on the "safe" side?
to be honest with you, i dont think enquirer disbelieves in God (although i do think he's ignoring a few truths). Many athiest just dont like the ideas of certain Gods religions have. Like the christian God with the long beard and hair (Zeus?).
"God" is just a word. People associate different things with that word. Just because a person says I dont believe in "god" doesnt mean they dont. And vice versa. -
The religion I was born under was Shia, Ismialii. Right now if someone asked me what religion I am I would say Ismiiali or muslim or none, as it is not something I consider as being of great importance since I know who I am, so I dont look to religion or anyone else it to tell me that. I find the problem centring around religion is how people utilize it, they too often look to it to provide answers to questions only they can provide; like who they are, hopefully, nay surely, more than a title/description.
peace,
Khalil -
Peace
what quran says is that hypocrites will have a painful chastisement.
Is believing in God hypocrisy?
believing to escape punishment and get reward, as presented in the two options scenario you suggested to enquirer.
What do you mean by not honest?
that it is not sincere, that it is hypocrital
It is very logical that God will punish or reward us. And it is illogical that God neither punish nor reward us because all these tests will be senseless then.
believing to make the tests to have sense has no sense for me ???
Last but not least, it is even much more illogical to disbelieve in God.
the idea we have about God, that's the core point
="Andy"
Please, if quran says it is correct let me know.How do you understand for examples these verses?
3133 And vie with one another to attain to your Sustainer's forgiveness and to a paradise as vast as the heavens and the earth, which has been readied for the God-conscious
2123 Have fear of the day when every soul will be responsible for itself, no ransom will be accepted for it, no intercession will be of any benefit to it and no one will receive any help.
strive for forgiveness; you are responsible.
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Peace Phoenix1
peace Andy,
you are suggesting that we should "believe in God" just to be on the "safe" side?
No
I am proving that disbelieve in God is irrational.
Do you think disbelieve in God is rational? If so, could you give me some good reasons for disbelieving in God?
to be honest with you, i dont think enquirer disbelieves in God (although i do think he's ignoring a few truths). Many athiest just dont like the ideas of certain Gods religions have. Like the christian God with the long beard and hair (Zeus?).
"God" is just a word. People associate different things with that word. Just because a person says I dont believe in "god" doesnt mean they dont. And vice versa.
Then why did enquirer say this "Hi andy. Free-thinking means trying to make sense of the world around me by using my own intellect along with the discoveries of good science. Humanist means putting people and their happiness first. Atheist means not believing,following or worshipping a non-existent all-powerful/all merciful single god and/or implementing inhuman laws..."?
Do you have any idea why?
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Peace
what quran says is that hypocrites will have a painful chastisement.
Is believing in God hypocrisy?
believing to escape punishment and get reward, as presented in the two options scenario you suggested to enquirer.
Do you mean it makes sense that God neither punish nor reward us?
316 The ones who Say "Our Lord, we believe, so forgive us our sins, and spare us the retribution of the Fire."
Are you saying those who pray to be saved from the fire are hypocrites?
What do you mean by not honest?
that it is not sincere, that it is hypocrital
That is emotional sis. Sincerity does not mean you hope NOTHING. If I sincerely love a girl, and then I travel far away just to meet her, I send her flowers, I treat her well, does that mean I hope NOTHING from her, not even hoping the she will love me too?
It is very logical that God will punish or reward us. And it is illogical that God neither punish nor reward us because all these tests will be senseless then.
believing to make the tests to have sense has no sense for me ???
Do you think it makes sense that God neither punish nor reward us? Yes or no?
Last but not least, it is even much more illogical to disbelieve in God.
the idea we have about God, that's the core point
No ...the core point is disbelive in God is irrational. Another point is without punishment and reward, everything just doesn't make sense. Just imagine a constitution in a country says "Theft is forbidden" but there is no law enforcement. Does that make sense?
Please, if quran says it is correct let me know.
How do you understand for examples these verses?
3133 And vie with one another to attain to your Sustainer's forgiveness and to a paradise as vast as the heavens and the earth, which has been readied for the God-conscious
2123 Have fear of the day when every soul will be responsible for itself, no ransom will be accepted for it, no intercession will be of any benefit to it and no one will receive any help.
strive for forgiveness; you are responsible.
You haven't addressed the core. What you need to address is why does God give amazingly beautiful descriptions of paradise and extremely painful descriptions of hell? Does He give such descriptions without purpose?
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It is better if you post your journey to "free-thinking humanist atheist" on the site. There might be others who want to know as well. Just post the link here in this thread to inform me.
If I may suggest, you should reconsider your rejection of God.
We have two choices
- Believe in God
- Disbelieve in God
Peace Andy,
There is other choices - no belief in god, which is the absence of a belief in god. This means you neither assert that you believe in god or you do not believe in god.
Another choice The weak atheist position - One who finds the evidence for the existence of god not convincing, but does not assert there is no god.
Another choice One who find the concept of god meaningless, hence any talk about god is meaningless.
If God didn't exist, nothing would happen to believers and disbelievers. And if God exists, disbelievers will have "big trouble" while believers will have "big rewards".
Do you have good reasons to choose "risky" path with possible regretful consequences while you can choose "safe" path with possible immense rewards?
This is what traditionally called a Pascal's wager for believing in God.
You can see the problems with such a wager here
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_wager -
Peace splatter,
Peace Andy,
There is other choices - no belief in god, which is the absence of a belief in god. This means you neither assert that you believe in god or you do not believe in god.
Honestly I don't really understand what you are talking about. IMHO, that is not a choice. That is what happens when one is irrational.
Another choice The weak atheist position - One who finds the evidence for the existence of god not convincing, but does not assert there is no god.
Weak atheist? well bro, I am not interested in playing word game. That is for me atheist.
Another choice One who find the concept of god meaningless, hence any talk about god is meaningless.
Well, my question remains the same Do you have good reasons for disbelieving in God? If you do, then please explain here.
If God didn't exist, nothing would happen to believers and disbelievers. And if God exists, disbelievers will have "big trouble" while believers will have "big rewards".
Do you have good reasons to choose "risky" path with possible regretful consequences while you can choose "safe" path with possible immense rewards?
This is what traditionally called a Pascal's wager for believing in God.
You can see the problems with such a wager here
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_wagerCould you explain to me with your own words? As far as I am concerned, I don't see any problem with what you call pascals wager. It clearly shows that disbelieving in God is irrational.
Well, just tell me if you have good reasons for disbelieving in God.
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Peace Andy,
Honestly I don't really understand what you are talking about. IMHO, that is not a choice. That is what happens when one is irrational.
I don't know what is your conception of irrational. To me, one is irrational when one has a belief that is not justified.
Suppose consider a person who finds that both evidence for and against the existence of god are unconvincing. Since he finds either evidence unconvincing, he neither believe nor disbelieve in god. This is what I meant having an absence of belief in god.
Weak atheist? well bro, I am not interested in playing word game. That is for me atheist
This not a word game. Are you saying that being a weak atheist is irrational? A weak atheist is one who finds the evidence for god is unconvincing, but has no good reasons there is no god.
Compare this with the strong atheist position who finds the evidence for god is unconvincing, and also have good reasons that there is no god.
Well, my question remains the same Do you have good reasons for disbelieving in God? If you do, then please explain here.
To explain so, requires you to define what god is. And the onus is on you to prove it's existence. If you can't prove his existence, then to me you're having an irrational belief, pascal wager or not.