There is no God other than God
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Peace All,
This thought came to me after experimenting with a plant called Salvia, I don't know if anyone else has heard of it. Anyway, it is one of the most potent hallucinogens around, and really an eye opener even though the 'trip' lasts for only about 10 minutes, plus its legal here in Canada. Enough about the plant though. While tripping I started thinking about God, and how the Quran says there is no God besides God, and that we shouldn't worship anything besides him. I came to the realization that this is an impossible task. Once I think about God, I am automatically setting up a partner besides the real God. My thought of God is Not in reality God, therefore, it is a fake God that I have created. I hope this makes sense to some, its even hard for me to make sense of it right now. Now I see that the argument can be made that my thought of God is actually God... I can see this working only if you state that everything is God; but that in itself means all my other thoughts are God as well, as is everything else in this universe and beyond. In that case there is no possibility of worshipping other than God. I will try and put my argument in a simpler form- The Quran states that we are to worship the one true God, of which there is no other
- My thoughts about God cannot in reality be the one true God
- My thoughts about God must be of a God besides God
- Therefore, it is impossible to worship the one true God without setting up a partner; namely my thoughts about God.
The rebuttal that I see coming up is that either we are not to even think about God, or that God is everything; therefore its impossible not to worship the one true God. If the latter is the case, then I think the Quran is rather pointless. If the former is the case, then the Quran also seems pointless.
Or maybe I'm still tripppppin
Peaace
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Peace be upon you peace,
It is about submission of heart! We surrender ! We let go of our own false self and selfish desires and submit to GOD! We let go of admiration of our own self and that of others.
Center of admiration changes from focusing on riches and lusts toward THE CENTER OF COMPASSION.
Every time you generate an image of HIM as being compassionate, it will be better than your previouse image that you made. This process of image improvement will reflect into your heart and brings about THE INTENDED GROWTH in out soul. reflect on this.
peace,
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Peace Alpha,
You said
"It is about submission of heart! We surrender ! We let go of our own false self and selfish desires and submit to GOD! We let go of admiration of our own self and that of others."Perhaps, that is true, but remember that is your own interpretation of what the Quran says. I have yet to see how following the path of the Quran can lead to losing the false self, or as I like to call it, the ego. Rather, I feel it continues to propagate the ego by stating we will be rewarded in paradise for our efforts. Rewards and punishments can only appeal to the ego. Maybe, we are supposed to let go of our admiration of self and of others, in theory, but from when I used to 'practice' what the Quran taught, the only thing I think that I gained was spiritual pride, and would look at myself as better than others.
"Center of admiration changes from focusing on riches and lusts toward THE CENTER OF COMPASSION."
Ahh yes it does, but remember that this center of compassion can not be God... because God is not a single thought. Once we think of the Center of Compassion we are really creating another false God, because we take our thoughts of God as God. Wow thats really confusing, sorry bout that alpha.
"Every time you generate an image of HIM as being compassionate, it will be better than your previouse image that you made. This process of image improvement will reflect into your heart and brings about THE INTENDED GROWTH in out soul. reflect on this."
Yes I'm sure it will, however, no matter how many improvements in my image of God that are made, they can never be of the God. Why is this? Because thoughts of something are just that, thoughts, they are not reality. My image of God is always my creation of what I think God is, my image cannot reflect the real God, it is a fake God that I've set up. On a side not though Alpha, I really enjoy reading your posts, and you seem to be a very open minded individual. I agree with growing our soul, and all that, but unfortunately the Quran does not do this for me. The only way that I can look at the Quran as the word of God, is if I accept that all words and everything else is God. But this view goes against the Quranic thinking in my opinion.
Take it Eassy
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Peace
No hallucinogenic trips will render you inspiration.
Symbolisms to explain or contemplate on God is not setting up a partner to God in my opinion. Just as the word tree or arbol is a symbol for such an object in reality or associative ideas , it is not setting up partners with the tree.
One can run the risk of placing symbols where they do not fit perfectly or at all.
Joe
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Peace Nabi,
"No hallucinogenic trips will render you inspiration."
Do you know this from personal experience? Or is this just your opinion? It is my opinion that plants can teach us a lot more than prayer ever has, because they show us another consciousness that most people simply like to talk about. I've gone through the prayer motions, done some meditation, and now I've tried some entheogens. I'd definitely have to say that the most changing experiences I've gone through, were thanks to the plants. Maybe I was just hallucinating, but to me it seemed just as real as anything in this world. It is of course your perogative to feel this way though, I'm not going to try and change your mind about them."Symbolisms to explain or contemplate on God is not setting up a partner to God in my opinion. Just as the word tree or arbol is a symbol for such an object in reality or associative ideas , it is not setting up partners with the tree."
So what is the difference between using a rock as a symbol of God, or using your thought as a symbol of God. Would you not consider the former as having set up a partner beside God? Do hindus not say that they use this symbol so as to get closer to God? Or do you believe that your thought is a better representation of God because it is based on the characteristics mentioned in the Quran? To me they both seem like setting up a partner to God. Your thoughts are your representations of what you think God is, and therefore, the only thing you worship is your thought of God. Ok let us say that we are supposed to worship God. I've never experienced what God is before, so I create a thought of a God, with all the characteristics I've been told in the Quran. Am I worshipping God? Or am I worshipping my thoughts of God?
"One can run the risk of placing symbols where they do not fit perfectly or at all."
Yes, but no symbol can compare to the God. It is just my representation of what God is, and I see no difference between using a thought as a symbol for God, or using maybe the Sun as a symbol of God. They are both just that... symbols. They are never in reality God.
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Peace "Peace",
I think your analysis is dead-on. Thank you for sharing. The truth in your words, as I see it, rests essentially on the difference between mind and soul. Thought is the work of the mind, and can never capture the essence of the divine. As long as what one worships is the "idea" of God, then, as you said, they are only worshipping the creation of their own minds.
What meditation and entheogens accomplish is the turning off of mind chatter. Once the mind chatter is silent, the soul is back in control, wordless and focused. In that moment, or moments, truth is clear. That truth, in my opinion, has nothing to do with worship or service, but with action fueled by compassion and love.
When compassion and love are the motivators, the truth manifests itself within and without. No words or ideas can capture this. To know God, we must know ourselves, not our "selfs".
Peace,
Tay -
Peace
No I do not have personal experience in the use of hallucinogens, but studies show that people who believe it does render inspiration are wrong.
You may be an uninformed user, thinking you have knowledge of the effects of a drug because you take them. Hallucinogens are a psychoactive drug that produce changes in percieved reality.
The drug you have purported to be taken can give one the sensation of traveling through time/space and out-of-body experience. I hope you don't get a bad trip, such a thing will scar you for life.
In my opinion, you need to read up on scientific studies regarding hallucinogens, because clearly you do not know that the feeling of inspiration is a fallacy.
but to me it seemed just as real as anything in this world.
Yes, when people are tripping they think the towels on their walls which appear to be lizards climbing the walls are as real as can be. The drugs are called 'hallucinogens' for a reason.
So what is the difference between using a rock as a symbol of God, or using your thought as a symbol of God.
All things we percieve are our thoughts, the rock, the t.v., all.
Do hindus not say that they use this symbol so as to get closer to God?
I know of no Hindus using rocks to symbolize God.
I've never experienced what God is before, so I create a thought of a God, with all the characteristics I've been told in the Quran. Am I worshipping God? Or am I worshipping my thoughts of God?
Thinking about God is not worshipping God per se.
You're talking about relinquishing the mind, which is a human necessity in such things.
no symbol can compare to the God.
They are the means to understanding. Words are symbols.
They are never in reality God.
You're confusing yourself. Representations are just that, but they do not negate that which they help one to understand.
Joe
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Peace Tay,
Thanks for the kind words, I always like hearing your input on things, and I believe the last time I was on this forum I forgot to give you a reply. I can't remember the thread, but we were talking about love for humanity or something like that. I'll try finding it later on. My apologies for just taking off. Addressing your post, I agree with what you say about thought being the work of the mind, not the soul. Unfortunately, when I tried meditation I could never completely turn off my mind chatter, it just makes me really restless, and so eventually I just stopped doing it. On the other hand, my recent experiences with Salvia divinorum have been very profound, and they've definitely opened up my mind to new ideas. At one point, I saw myself as just a bundle of words twirling around... it was very wierd. During my trip, I looked upon humanity the same way I look at ants, it was like looking down on humans, and the insignificance really hit me hard, but at the same moment I realized our significance too. We are all part of everything, and words can never describe my experience to anyone. Its wierd because during this trip, I came to the conclusion that love and curiosity are what drives all things. We continue in this world to see what's coming up next, the surprise of it, and also because of the love we feel for people. Otherwise, life would not be worth living. As always I love hearin from ya. -
Peace all,
Thank you for the wise words.
Knowing God has the simplicity of direct experience and certainty.
When you train yourself to be patience in the middle of all challenges. Then your patience increases. You experience that directly.
Of that quality GOD has infinite. But de term infinite is MIND dependent. As the scope of MIND expands, the term infinite will grow. Yet even though the imagination of the GOD,s patience is not imaginable, the quality of being itself can be directly experienced.One comes to know that GOD has all these qualities that we are privileged to share. Compassion is GOD,s quality and it is no coincidence that we can find it in our heart.
GOD wanted us to know him, so he granted us his qualities. HE planted them in our hearts for that purpose. When we start getting straight from inside, the garden will start to grow and GOD will not remain a stranger to us anymore.
Peace,
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Peace Alpha,
GOD wanted us to know him, so he granted us his qualities. HE planted them in our hearts for that purpose. When we start getting straight from inside, the garden will start to grow and GOD will not remain a stranger to us anymore.
Beautiful!
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Nabi,
"No I do not have personal experience in the use of hallucinogens, but studies show that people who believe it does render inspiration are wrong.You may be an uninformed user, thinking you have knowledge of the effects of a drug because you take them. Hallucinogens are a psychoactive drug that produce changes in percieved reality.
The drug you have purported to be taken can give one the sensation of traveling through time/space and out-of-body experience. I hope you don't get a bad trip, such a thing will scar you for life.
In my opinion, you need to read up on scientific studies regarding hallucinogens, because clearly you do not know that the feeling of inspiration is a fallacy."
Scientific studies say a lot of things, and I pick and choose the ones I like to believe. It makes no difference to me what other people have concluded about something, only what I've concluded from personal experience. Scientists may say that people who take these plants are prone to Schizophrenia, but I say the schizophrenics aren't insane, rather everybody else is. I think Schizophrenia is seeing what mystics see but not being able to handle it because the ego hasn't disappeared. This makes them continue to fear everything that they are experiencing, without the ego there would be no fear.To me this world in which we live acts insane, we constantly talk to ourselves (can't stop our thoughts), take prescription drugs for every ailment, pollute the earth, watch T.V. shows about life instead of experiencing it, and constantly try to act righteous but instead just become hypocrites. Yet we call schizophrenics the crazy ones, aren't we all just as crazy, fighting these wars, killing people over paper. I've gone off on a tangent, sorry bro. As for the bad trip, I had one recently, I felt very paranoid, but it passed, and now I realize the only thing that makes me feel paranoid is trying to hang on to my ego. What would scientists say if moses came to them and said I just talked to God through a burning bush? I just split the sea in half? Wouldn't they lock him away and say he's crazy. In the Quran it says that those who were inspired were labeled as being lunatics by their societies, I bet if they were around now a days we'd call them schizo's, and say they weren't inspired at all. It is my opinion that scientific studies cannot conclude whether or not we receive inspiration, they can only interpret the experience in terms of the symbols that they know. This experience cannot be conveyed in symbols, they'll never know what the user of the plant has experienced, and so they have no ability to judge what counts as inspiration and what doesn't.
"Yes, when people are tripping they think the towels on their walls which appear to be lizards climbing the walls are as real as can be. The drugs are called 'hallucinogens' for a reason"
True, I should have seen that coming. Simply because someone has experienced a reality different from this one does not mean that it is any less real. Who says this isn't a hallucination?
"All things we percieve are our thoughts, the rock, the t.v., all."
Except for that unknown force that lets us perceive that we are thinking. Is that a thought as well? I don't know.
"I know of no Hindus using rocks to symbolize God."
I'm sorry, I should have researched this prior to posting it. You are right, I'm not too familiar with mainstream hinduism, and I don't know if they use rocks to symbolize God. I was always under the impression that they used statues though as representations of God. The Quran is against the use of statues, but what is the difference between that, and my thoughts about God? Aren't they both just false representations.
"Thinking about God is not worshipping God per se.
You're talking about relinquishing the mind, which is a human necessity in such things."
So how would you go about worshipping only God? Don't you need to think about God to worship him?
I dont really understand what you mean by the second sentence. Can you clarify this for me please."They are the means to understanding. Words are symbols."
Yes words are symbols, but all too often we take the symbols to be the actual thing. I was under the impression that the Quran was against setting anything up besides God, whether that be symbols like a statue, or words. God is unknowable, these things cannot help us. It is like trying to understand "nothingness" through words.
"You're confusing yourself. Representations are just that, but they do not negate that which they help one to understand."
Hah, yea I do that a lot. Probably not only confusing myself but others as well. Maybe we need to define what the Quran means as setting up a partner then, is it fair for me to create statues of God with all the qualities I believe God has? What is the difference between actually creating the statue, or making my thoughts that statue?
Thanks for the discussion TheNabi, I hope these symbols provide you with an accurate portrait of my view, and I apologize for asking a lot of questions, that's just the way I like to discuss.
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Peace
I pick and choose the ones I like to believe.
That's a problem. You need to learn to recognize sound studies rather the ones you like.
Wouldn't they lock him away and say he's crazy.
Probably. If I told you I split the sea in half would you believe me?
Simply because someone has experienced a reality different from this one does not mean that it is any less real.
It also does not mean that it is real, the experience of that other reality.
Is that a thought as well? I don't know.
You were just saying this unknown was the basis for ascribing partners to God. So you tell me and get your thesis straight.
Aren't they both just false representations.
Depends. One statue may represent an aspect of divinity of which you may be familiar. The false thoughts come in where you build up a world not of this world, thinking it to be the world.
I dont really understand what you mean by the second sentence.
What is the mind but a reseviour of symbols and experiences?
whether that be symbols like a statue, or words
They are still a means of communication. Why would you propose throwing these away?
God is unknowable, these things cannot help us.
I'm an evolutionist and that which I cannot compass today I may achieve in the tomorrow. To me the Unknown is not unknowable.
Still, if I'm understanding you correctly, how do you know that these very thoughts of your's just expressed in the above quote are not false?
It is like trying to understand "nothingness" through words.
No-thing is the most important concept of all in the Western Inner Tradition. Symbols are like algebra. Concrete symbols represent abstract realities the untrained mind cannot grasp.
is it fair for me to create statues of God with all the qualities I believe God has?
I do not believe meditating on statues or any other symbol relating to God or His aspects is idolatry.
Joe
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Peace Alpha,
"Knowing God has the simplicity of direct experience and certainty."
This is definitely true, there is no way to communicate God, that is why Lao Tzu would always use a negative term for God, rather than a positive one. This is because it is impossible to communicate what God is.
"When you train yourself to be patience in the middle of all challenges. Then your patience increases. You experience that directly.
Of that quality GOD has infinite. But de term infinite is MIND dependent. As the scope of MIND expands, the term infinite will grow. Yet even though the imagination of the GOD,s patience is not imaginable, the quality of being itself can be directly experienced."This is definitely true, but the question is why are you training yourself.... what is the goal? If the goal is to be at peace, then it is the ego trying to control the ego. This is an impossible task. Similarly, if you are trying to be happy, or to be a better person, this is also the ego trying to tame the ego. As long as a goal is in mind, you can never be concentrating on the current moment. This moment is infinity though, as is every other moment.
I agree that as the scope of the mind expands, the term infinite will grow. However, the only way to experience the infinite is to let go of the mind, to realize that there is no action you can take to make you understand the infinite. No amount of prayers, meditations, or good deeds can lead you to this experience; because if you think there is a way to learn to understand the infinite, that is your ego leading you once again.
"One comes to know that GOD has all these qualities that we are privileged to share. Compassion is GOD,s quality and it is no coincidence that we can find it in our heart."
Yes we have the infinite within us, yet much of the time we do not realize this, we think the infinite is external and we put on a facade that we're on a search to find this infinite... this key to everything. What we do not realize is that we are everything. We were that primordial energy in the big bang, and so we are this universe.
"GOD wanted us to know him, so he granted us his qualities. HE planted them in our hearts for that purpose. When we start getting straight from inside, the garden will start to grow and GOD will not remain a stranger to us anymore."
This sounds again like God is some external entity that controls our lives, separate from us. God is everything. Ahh I definitely agree with the second sentence, and like tay said it is beautiful... but so is everything else. sun
Take itt easssyy
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Peace upon all and "Peace",
I think I understand what you are getting at. Its like one of those questions asking, "How can there not be another creator that created God Himself?", or "Can God will himself not to be able to pick up a stone".
How exactly are you setting up a partner? Because of the qualities? God is everything and there would be nothing without God. For example, I believe God is everything and Nothingness at the same time. When you worship God, you do not worship "Kindness" or "Compassion", or else you would just worship qualities. You worship God Himself/Herself. You make God your beacon. Again, we cannot comprehend the greatness of God at all, and that is the best that we can do and is what is asked of us.
To make an idol or a partner of God would be to put someone/something else in the position of God. In my opinion, if you are not focused on God and you devote yourself to it, be it drugs (not directed towards you at all), money, etc. then you have already set up an idol. You can't live without it when in reality you can't live without God. God is what you focus your mind on. Dont focus your mind on Gods being, such as thinking that God is a man with a long beard that sits on a throne, since God is uncomprehendable. Just focus on your greatfulness towards God and your absolute devotion. Be thankful for all the things you have been given and even taken away in life. Im not telling you to do this, but I am saying thats my idea of worshipping God.
Your thoughts are just that, thoughts. God gave that to you to think and ponder, which you are doing now. If you think about me and my qualities, that is not setting up a second idea of me, thats who I am based on how I act. The thing with God is though (again IMO) is that all these qualities such as compassion, mercy, are actually something that God Himself/Herself created and is in the creatures in which he committed them to.
Anyone can be compassionate, merciful, etc. We dont worship the qualities itself.
I hope that helped for what it was worth. Good luck finding your answer and contentment.
Wa Salaam
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Peace the Nabi,
That's a problem. You need to learn to recognize sound studies rather the ones you like.
Maybe you can direct me to some sound studies that prove entheogens serve no purpose in the case of inspiration. I've been reading a book called DMT The spirit Molecule, and also Food of the Gods, both these books seem to say there is something enlightening that can be found in entheogens.
Probably. If I told you I split the sea in half would you believe me?
No I wouldn't, but thats the point I'm trying to make... All prophets were considered crazy and insane; that is if you believe what the Quran says. If I were to try and tell you my experience with entheogens was true, and not a hallucination, you yourself would most likely consider me insane. They take you quite literally to a whole different dimension. No need to search space.
It also does not mean that it is real, the experience of that other reality.
I should ask then what you consider real? DO you not consider what you are perceiving right now as real, the words that you're reading, are they real? How do you know? If someone told you your experience was all in your mind, would that make it any less real to you?
You were just saying this unknown was the basis for ascribing partners to God. So you tell me and get your thesis straight.
What unknown? I'm saying that when we say we know the attributes of God, or we form a thought about what God is, we are in fact ascribing partners to God. God is unknowable, and the minute we form an image in our mind of what God is through language, we have made that our GOd. But that is not God, so it must be a fake representation of what God is. Unless of course you believe everything is God, that would make your thoughts God, and that would make you correct in any belief of God you have.
Now do you find my argument to be invalid? I mean is it impossible for all the premises to be true yet the conclusion false in the first post that I made. If this is the case then I must revise it. If on the other hand you disagree with a premise can you tell me which one.
Depends. One statue may represent an aspect of divinity of which you may be familiar. The false thoughts come in where you build up a world not of this world, thinking it to be the world.
Okay my question then is does the Quran allow us to worship statues, even if we believe it's just a means we use in order to get closer to God? A statue or symbol cannot possibly be an aspect of divinity. Only an aspect of divinity is an aspect of divnity, a statue is an attempt to convey a representation of that divinity. But nonetheless, it is a fake, and does not touch upon what an actual aspect of divinity is. Aren't thoughts part of this world? How can they not be part of this world? The problem is thoughts are just that.... thoughts. They cannot represent the actual thing we are trying to get at; God.
They are still a means of communication. Why would you propose throwing these away?
I'm saying that the Quran forbids the worship of statues, yet a thought or a word, or any other symbol, is the same as a statue, and if we try to make an image of what God is in our mind, we are doing the same thing as worshipping statues. I don't propose anything, just that the Quran is making a claim that seems to contradict itself.
I'll finish up the rest later, I'm sorry bout the delay in writing this. I take off for a while and come back, thanks for your patience.
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Salam Aleykom Dear Peace
I find something wrong off the bat.The fact that you are "expereimenting" with a hallucigen is not right.
O you who believe, intoxicants and games of chance and stones set up and arrows are only an uncleanness, the devils work; so shun it that you may succeed.
Secondly, the thought that you got was most definatly "the devils work".
Third,
Once I think about God, I am automatically setting up a partner besides the real God.Just because you automatically set up a partnet beside Him while on a "trip" doesn't make your understanding of God true, nor valid, because you were, shall I say, high?
its even hard for me to make sense of it right now.
Above quote is self explanitory )
I see you applying what you understand to reality as if it is reality. That also with you being high does not help the situation.
peace, Peace )
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Anyway, it is one of the most potent hallucinogens around
From his mouth. I don't normally study drugs, hallucinogens, and all that sort of stuff.
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Peace Reza,
From his mouth.
Correct...I missed that brickwall
It seems "Peace" didn't know there was a difference either.Anyway...
I don't normally study drugs, hallucinogens, and all that sort of stuff.
Fair enough. In my experience, whether one is 'high' or 'low', if a valid question is posed, it's worth talking about. I don't see anything in Peace's questions that would lead one to think of it as "the devil's work".
How would you differentiate between someone worshipping a statue and someone worshipping an image in their own mind of God sitting on a throne?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you peace,
Sorry for a very late response!
You touch on several nice issues which i would love to exchange ideas on, but time has been short and still is!
Allow me to come to these issues in propoer timeI would like to elaborate on
1- Within and Without
2- Ego trip while gaining attributes
3- Why Ego is a blessing and why GOD allowed the presence of the Ego in HIS plan.
3- GOD,s attributes and shirkI will be back in a while
peace,