Was the World Created for the Prophet?
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Assalamu Alaikum Brothers and Sisters in Islam,
Brother Andy gave us an interesting link in another thread where this was posted
guys last night i had a conversation wih my friend who now i come to know is a pure quranist. he said they they dont believ in the prophet(PBUH&HP) much and he said that prophet(PBUH&HP) said that i m leaving one thing wioth you just hold on it tight and u will never get strayed . he said that quran is enuf for all muslims and msulims should not consult with hadeeth (Any hadeeth) coz a lot of hadeeths are temperd and funnily he remembered and believd in oly those hadeeths whcih were related to the three first caliphs of muslims .he said that sunnat of prophet(PBUH&HP) is not to be followed coz the molwees(scholars) have temperd it too for their own interest. i told him that prophet(PBUH&HP) was the cause of creation of this world he said no i dont believe in it and it is all lies coz it is not written in quran
i just wanted to kno from u guys is it really not that prophet(PBUH&HP) was the cause of creation of this world
and another thing i heard the hadeeth that prophet(PBUh&HP) said that i m leavind two important things in u one the quran and the other my ahle bait .isnt this the hadeeth but i was real surprised that he alsoa said that "aal" does not mean ur progeny but it means followers and thats y abu bakr was a in aal-e-muhammad(PBUH) wat is this i want ur comments on this plz comment on thisI remember reading Hadith regarding this and also those even more specific to the Shia belief regarding 5 people the Prophet, 'Ali, Fatimah, Hasan and Husayn in relation to creating the world for.
Now in my belief, the Prophet was the best human being regardless of Hadith or not for a few reasons but mainly for the fact he was the one honoured (or it could be viewed as a weight as well) with the seal of prophet hood.
Being what is considered as Ahl-al-Bayt myself I cannot come to the Shia belief of being infallible either in the case of myself or my ancestors, because at the end of the day we are all human beings.
However, this is not the point I'm trying to get at, the point is in this whole belief that the world was created for the Prophet, which perhaps insinuates that the prophet was created 'first' and the Earth 'later'.
There are two issues here
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If there is any kind of truth in these hadith regarding this issue, what must have occurred in the before-time (the time before our birth here on Earth) to the soul of the Prophet to have such an elevated position of having the Earth created for him.
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If we take the belief that there pretty much no kind of reliable origin to these hadith is this then one of the most obvious, or should I say direct forms of Shirk - the other forms being more or less more indirect with the Sunni and Shiah having less outrageous explanations for them.
So basically, I would like to know your views, if any, on these two specific points...
Salam
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Peace,
God said He created us to serve HIM. So it clearly cannot be created for the Prophet. And the cycle of the earth comes before God breathed His Ruh into mankind. So the Prophet could not have excisted before the earth.
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So do you yourself think this is one of their more serious ideological forms of Shirk? (i.e. the stuff they're doing that is not necessarily a practice but rather fundamental a belief)
Does anyone else know of any other big ones? (Yeah I know there are lots D)
It would be good if we could list all the ahadith next to clear refutations of such from verses in the Qur'an, that way we would not only have a better understanding of hadith in ourselves but also a good source for which people who are still Sunni and Shia but wish to know more may able to use as a reference to really see the depths of all the contradictions.
We could use a simple code of B8345 for Sahih Bukhari Book 8 Number 345 with QXXX, QXXXX and QXX showing the obvious contradictons.
This would also give us an idea of the actual scale of contradictory ahadith in use.
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Salam,
I just wanted to give an alternate prespective. Sayings such as, "The World Created for the Prophet" came from a place of mysticism. Mysticism is often over time distorted by the rationalist and logical brain. Mysticism rarely translates into written or spoken languages. This is why the form of poetry is used when spoken and written langage are needed to express mysticism. So far in my life, I've learned that the language of music is the best of langauges to speak mysticism.
With this said, lets ask the question, Why did Allah Create? As Brother Yasin stated,"God said He created us to serve HIM." And how do we know this?
I believe within the answer of this question we will find why one might say the world was Created for the Prophet. It appears to me the saying in question here, is regarding the pinnacle of Allah's message for human kind through His Chosen Prophet who gave us what we have now... The Quran.
peace...
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Salaam all,
So do you yourself think this is one of their more serious ideological forms of Shirk? (i.e. the stuff they're doing that is not necessarily a practice but rather fundamental a belief)
Does anyone else know of any other big ones? (Yeah I know there are lots D)
How about the hadith pertaining to intercession?
Shahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 236
Narrated Abu Huraira
Some (cooked) meat was brought to Allah Apostle and the meat of a forearm was presented to him as he used to like it. He ate a morsel of it and said, "I will be the chief of all the people on the Day of Resurrection. Do you know the reason for it? Allah will gather all the human being of early generations as well as late generation on one plain so that the announcer will be able to make them all-hear his voice and the watcher will be able to see all of them. The sun will come so close to the people that they will suffer such distress and trouble as they will not be able to bear or stand. Then the people will say, 'Don't you see to what state you have reached? Won't you look for someone who can intercede for you with your Lord' Some people will say to some others, 'Go to Adam.' So they will go to Adam and say to him. 'You are the father of mankind; Allah created you with His Own Hand, and breathed into you of His Spirit (meaning the spirit which he created for you); and ordered the angels to prostrate before you; so (please) intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are? Don't you see what condition we have reached?' Adam will say, 'Today my Lord has become angry as He has never become before, nor will ever become thereafter. He forbade me (to eat of the fruit of) the tree, but I disobeyed Him . Myself! Myself! Myself! (has more need for intercession). Go to someone else; go to Noah.' So they will go to Noah and say (to him), 'O Noah! You are the first (of Allah's Messengers) to the people of the earth, and Allah has named you a thankful slave; please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' He will say.' Today my Lord has become angry as He has never become nor will ever become thereafter. I had (in the world) the right to make one definitely accepted invocation, and I made it against my nation. Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Abraham.' They will go to Abraham and say, 'O Abraham! You are Allah's Apostle and His Khalil from among the people of the earth; so please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' He will say to them, 'My Lord has today become angry as He has never become before, nor will ever become thereafter. I had told three lies (Abu Haiyan (the sub-narrator) mentioned them in the Hadith) Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Moses.' The people will then go to Moses and say, 'O Moses! You art Allah's Apostle and Allah gave you superiority above the others with this message and with His direct Talk to you; (please) intercede for us with your Lord Don't you see in what state we are?' Moses will say, 'My Lord has today become angry as He has never become before, nor will become thereafter, I killed a person whom I had not been ordered to kill. Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Jesus.' So they will go to Jesus and say, 'O Jesus! You are Allah's Apostle and His Word which He sent to Mary, and a superior soul created by Him, and you talked to the people while still young in the cradle. Please intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?' Jesus will say. 'My Lord has today become angry as He has never become before nor will ever become thereafter. Jesus will not mention any sin, but will say, 'Myself! Myself! Myself! Go to someone else; go to Muhammad.' So they will come to me and say, 'O Muhammad ! You are Allah's Apostle and the last of the prophets, and Allah forgave your early and late sins. (Please) intercede for us with your Lord. Don't you see in what state we are?" The Prophet added, "Then I will go beneath Allah's Throne and fall in prostration before my Lord. And then Allah will guide me to such praises and glorification to Him as He has never guided anybody else before me. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad Raise your head. Ask, and it will be granted. Intercede It (your intercession) will be accepted.' So I will raise my head and Say, 'My followers, O my Lord! My followers, O my Lord'. It will be said, 'O Muhammad! Let those of your followers who have no accounts, enter through such a gate of the gates of Paradise as lies on the right; and they will share the other gates with the people." The Prophet further said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, the distance between every two gate-posts of Paradise is like the distance between Mecca and Busra (in Sham)."
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Peace
The short answer is "no"
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Peace Al-Quraishi, all,
My knee-jerk reaction to this post was "nonsense". Not directed at you but at this belief that somehow the prophet existed before the earth and all that this belief entails. But thanks to brother M_Mehdi's insight, I can see this from another viewpoint
229 He is the One who created for you all that is on earth, then He attend to the universe and made it seven universes, and He is aware of all things.
This being said, there is no reason to think that the prophet existed before the earth. To elevate this person's status is to disregard the many examples from within the qur'an that clearly state all messengers were simply human and all should be viewed equally. And as M_Mehdi stated, this is an example of people taking expression at face-value and plugging in the fantasy, rather than searching for the deeper meaning, which in this case is an example of the countless blessings resulting from "our" manifestation.
Peace,
TayPeace
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peace,
Many years ago I heared Dr. Mustafa Mahmoud (Egyptian) say that Mohammad was created before Adam. This was while he was interpreting "I am the (first) of Muslims" (verses 614, 163 ; and 3912). Could this be the basis for such a nonesense?
I wonder if this is the same Dr Mustafa Mahmoud who wrote "Dialogue with an Atheist", which I thought was reasonably intelligent and helped shape some of my basic philosophical ideas. If this is the case, not to mention his idea being illogical, did he not consider 7143 or 2651?
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Salam,
I just wanted to give an alternate prespective. Sayings such as, "The World Created for the Prophet" came from a place of mysticism. Mysticism is often over time distorted by the rationalist and logical brain. Mysticism rarely translates into written or spoken languages. This is why the form of poetry is used when spoken and written langage are needed to express mysticism. So far in my life, I've learned that the language of music is the best of langauges to speak mysticism.
With this said, lets ask the question, Why did Allah Create? As Brother Yasin stated,"God said He created us to serve HIM." And how do we know this?
I believe within the answer of this question we will find why one might say the world was Created for the Prophet. It appears to me the saying in question here, is regarding the pinnacle of Allah's message for human kind through His Chosen Prophet who gave us what we have now... The Quran.
peace...
Peace,
Sorry Mehdi, but i will stand against this with all my might. You have to understand that the prophet himself stands apart from the message. We must serve Allah, this includes the Prophet, he stands in the same line as us. The Quran is no different from any other message given to other prophets. Also the mystism you said has nothing to do with this.
The concept of a hero to be firstborn is to be found in all legends around the world. The same thing is said about Jesus, Mitra, Krishna and the list goes on. What happened here is what we call a continous behaviour towards legends and heroes. Ancient gods were born before the earth, and also for some it was said the earth was made. This later on ended up with Jesus. Then with Jesus, certain sects said the same thing of Muhammed, to make him more then Jesus.
To say the world was created for the Prophet, is just continuing an ancient hero-worship ritual. As for Samia post, Abraham was the first one to call us Muslims, so that egyptian guy neglected a part of the message. This would create a contradiction in the Quran, except if Muhammed's sentence refers to be the first muslim in his age.
Most stories around Muhammed are just a continiousation of ancient hero-worship legends. The ascension to heaven is a mix of ancient persian legends, the cave story they got from the Talmud where the exact same thing happened to David, the healings of Muhammed were to counter Jesus miracles healings and so and so on. It is the ancient clash of who has the more powerfull idol. Let's get ready to rumble....
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Peace Al-Quraishi, all,
My knee-jerk reaction to this post was "nonsense". Not directed at you but at this belief that somehow the prophet existed before the earth and all that this belief entails. But thanks to brother M_Mehdi's insight, I can see this from another viewpoint
229 He is the One who created for you all that is on earth, then He attend to the universe and made it seven universes, and He is aware of all things.
This being said, there is no reason to think that the prophet existed before the earth. To elevate this person's status is to disregard the many examples from within the qur'an that clearly state all messengers were simply human and all should be viewed equally. And as M_Mehdi stated, this is an example of people taking expression at face-value and plugging in the fantasy, rather than searching for the deeper meaning, which in this case is an example of the countless blessings resulting from "our" manifestation.
Peace,
TayPeace
Indeed, I agree with you in this belief regarding the creation, however there are a large number of Muslims who do believe in what I've been referring to as the 'Before-time', we all know about the repository of souls, some Muslims and many Christians draw conclusions about what happened before all of this. There are indeed places in the Qur'an which point to the Before-time.
When I was referring to the Prophet's existence in the Before-time I was not necessarily just referring to him alone although this may be the case among many Shias.
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Peace,
God said He created us to serve HIM. So it clearly cannot be created for the Prophet. And the cycle of the earth comes before God breathed His Ruh into mankind. So the Prophet could not have excisted before the earth.
Salam arnoldyasin,
Your statements may contradict Q3660 and Q7172 that tells us, we as humandkind has existed before we live our life in this current world.
Q3660
Did I not covenant with you, O Children of Adam, that you shall not worship the devil? That he is your most ardent enemy?Q7172
Recall that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam, and had them bear witness for themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They all said, "Yes. We bear witness." Thus, you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, "We were not aware of this."The prophets just like the rest of us have lived our life in previous world. We are here for our second chance/redemption. I guess. )
Salam
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Peace,
3660 does not at all refer to a past life. This refers to that through humanity's excistence on earth, messengers were send that conveyed to not follow shatain. This refers to that most people on earth have heared about this from old stories and revelations. Almost all traditions around the world carry this warning.
As for 7172, the translation you present is not correct. Rashad has used this translation to acknowledge his view on why we are here.
And when/if your Lord took/received from Adam's sons and daughters from their backs their descendants, and He made them witness/testify on themselves. "Am I not your Lord (E)?" They said "Yes/certainly, We witnessed/testified." That You say (on) the Resurrection Day "That We were about this ignoring/disregarding ."
And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
This refers to the progeny of men have all witnessed that God is their Lord, as God has sent messengers to ALL nations with the message. No people on earth can deny they knew not of God's excistence. 99% of all cultures on earth acknowledge a All-powerfull Creator. His role is only different in every culture. There is no culture on earth that can deny for not knowing God. Also the creation itself bares witness of a single Creator in it's design, this can be seen by the story of Abraham, and for example with the Greek philosphers who discovered God by themselves by looking at the creation. The story of Hayy ibn Yaqzan by Ibn Tufayl is a beautifull example on how a person can witness God by himself, just looking at the creation, WITNESSING creation. No soul on earth can say, i didn't had access to the clues of the excistence of God. Every time they open up their eyes, they are confronted with it. That is why the people who deny God or His Oneness, are called kafir, which was used for farmers in old arabic, as this refers to someone who buries things. People who deny God or His Oneness, bury the truth for their conciousness, but those veils will drop on the Time of Resurrection.
"The early man had little knowledge how nature worked and why, except what he himself could experience, out of this the feeling of mystery must have emerged. The feeling there is a true reality behind this life. This is how the concept of divinity, of the transcendent, a universal Good, bigger that the human and nature, a source of nurture, a ruler on destiny. This concept of power, of a Creator, in the sense of that is everything, a power of the higher and this reality must have come about. In our language it resembles the Transcendent and Immanent. If this can be seen as 1 God, as most researchers think, can not be proven of course. But it is certainly true, that in our days, with the cultures who don't use writing, and resembles early man in a lot of ways, like the use of oral tradition. That with these cultures, it is a common believe that there is only one highest god, one creator, and next to this god, they have to deal with lower spiritual beings as totems, cultural heroes, ancestors and local gods. But this god, sticks out with head and shoulders above all of these lower powers. For most it is a vague, and and incomprehensible power. That in their eyes doesn't intervene in daily life. So this is why they use their idols to ask help. When cultures grew, this aminism developed into polytheism. But in the background, this highest god always remained, although it was ignored. This faith, or rather understanding developed back in to monotheism as it is to be found in the scriptual faiths of today. So after a long route the highest power always prevailed. The concept of religion, has to be traced back in the faith of a holy power that goes beyond this universe, and supports it. It could be that this wasn't given no form, and stayed a vague term of providence, as a creating and recreating force, working in food, sex, fertility, birth, death and the changing of seasons. When this view, that this force exists, found it's own life in different aspects and functions, this developed into spirits, ghosts and idols, with each its own tasks.
It reappearing throughout the whole history of mankind. The remerging of faith in every fase of cultures and religions since prehistoric times, gives a clear indication that it is something that is a spontaneous part of man itself. It is an expression of a feeling and thinking man is born with, not so much an outcome of observation and knowledge of the universe and nature. Without a doubt did this develope into the monotheisms of today, in the God as only creator and sustainer of all things. Far from that polytheism developed into monotheism, does the evidence show that the concept and knowledge of the universe, while it grew developed different gods and powers over time, while the highest being turned into a vague figure, that didn't intervene, and was hidden in the mists of animism and polytheism and the absolutism of Hinduism and in the far east." Gerben J.F. Bouritius Lector in the fenomology of religions and faiths of the Theological Faculty in Tilburg -
Assalamu Alaikum Brothers and Sisters in Islam,
Brother Andy gave us an interesting link in another thread where this was posted
guys last night i had a conversation wih my friend who now i come to know is a pure quranist. he said they they dont believ in the prophet(PBUH&HP) much and he said that prophet(PBUH&HP) said that i m leaving one thing wioth you just hold on it tight and u will never get strayed . he said that quran is enuf for all muslims and msulims should not consult with hadeeth (Any hadeeth) coz a lot of hadeeths are temperd and funnily he remembered and believd in oly those hadeeths whcih were related to the three first caliphs of muslims .he said that sunnat of prophet(PBUH&HP) is not to be followed coz the molwees(scholars) have temperd it too for their own interest. i told him that prophet(PBUH&HP) was the cause of creation of this world he said no i dont believe in it and it is all lies coz it is not written in quran
i just wanted to kno from u guys is it really not that prophet(PBUH&HP) was the cause of creation of this world
and another thing i heard the hadeeth that prophet(PBUh&HP) said that i m leavind two important things in u one the quran and the other my ahle bait .isnt this the hadeeth but i was real surprised that he alsoa said that "aal" does not mean ur progeny but it means followers and thats y abu bakr was a in aal-e-muhammad(PBUH) wat is this i want ur comments on this plz comment on thisI remember reading Hadith regarding this and also those even more specific to the Shia belief regarding 5 people the Prophet, 'Ali, Fatimah, Hasan and Husayn in relation to creating the world for.
Now in my belief, the Prophet was the best human being regardless of Hadith or not for a few reasons but mainly for the fact he was the one honoured (or it could be viewed as a weight as well) with the seal of prophet hood.
Being what is considered as Ahl-al-Bayt myself I cannot come to the Shia belief of being infallible either in the case of myself or my ancestors, because at the end of the day we are all human beings.
However, this is not the point I'm trying to get at, the point is in this whole belief that the world was created for the Prophet, which perhaps insinuates that the prophet was created 'first' and the Earth 'later'.
There are two issues here
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If there is any kind of truth in these hadith regarding this issue, what must have occurred in the before-time (the time before our birth here on Earth) to the soul of the Prophet to have such an elevated position of having the Earth created for him.
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If we take the belief that there pretty much no kind of reliable origin to these hadith is this then one of the most obvious, or should I say direct forms of Shirk - the other forms being more or less more indirect with the Sunni and Shiah having less outrageous explanations for them.
So basically, I would like to know your views, if any, on these two specific points...
Salam
Peace bro
I only read your comment in this thread and as a quick reply, the hadith above is total non sense and contradicts many verses in the Quran
for example the verse where the prophet said "He does not know what Allah is intending to do with him and all humans", another one where Allah said to Mohammad "Inak mayet wa inahum maytoon", and many more that clearly show that Mohammad was a human like us with no other prefrences but he was a prophet and the seal of the message sent before the JD
I believe the hadith is injected by satan and his followers as he is trying hard for 1400 years to corrupt our religion as he did with the others, clearly the hadith has no outcome but to raise the prophet in a level that Allah never intended to put him in
the verse about the prophet "Inaka La Ala Khulqin Azim" is enough of a testamant that the prophet with a great example to all humans to follow
Salam
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Peace Bros
To think that I used to believe that hadith as the truth, ie that the world was created for the Prophet, and all that because I was reading Al Quran behind the veils of hadith and superstition...
I do find some hadith very informative in the way to conduct certain affairs, but now I reserve the right to follow them or not.
Also I do not accept anymore the Hadith as binding as far as legislation is concerned, which means that Sharia based on Hadith is unacceptable in my view.
Salat was practiced by teaching it from elder to young, and was finally recorded by the four scholars (Imam Hanbal, Malik, etc), it has nothing to do with Hadith, but since it became a fashion to try and prove everything using Hadith, scholars decided to reference Salat using Hadith... But the base line for it as for everything else is Al Quran...
Salam -
Peace,
God said He created us to serve HIM. So it clearly cannot be created for the Prophet. And the cycle of the earth comes before God breathed His Ruh into mankind. So the Prophet could not have excisted before the earth.
God said the earth is created fot men, to manage it properly as He teachs men. God sends Prophet when the management of men and earth do not conform with Ad Deenul Islam.
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Peace,
3660 does not at all refer to a past life. This refers to that through humanity's excistence on earth, messengers were send that conveyed to not follow shatain. This refers to that most people on earth have heared about this from old stories and revelations. Almost all traditions around the world carry this warning.
As for 7172, the translation you present is not correct. Rashad has used this translation to acknowledge his view on why we are here.
And when/if your Lord took/received from Adam's sons and daughters from their backs their descendants, and He made them witness/testify on themselves. "Am I not your Lord (E)?" They said "Yes/certainly, We witnessed/testified." That You say (on) the Resurrection Day "That We were about this ignoring/disregarding ."
And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
This refers to the progeny of men have all witnessed that God is their Lord, as God has sent messengers to ALL nations with the message. <snip>
Peace bro arnold,
The conversation in Q7172 clearly indicate to a direct witness between God and the children of Adam. There's no ambiguity in the words choosen by God in the message. And there's no indication of third party involvement in the conversation. It's simply a direct conversation between God and Men. Hence the conversation can only take place in the previous world before we were sent down to this temporary world for our redemption.
Peace.
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Peace,
God talks to us directly through the Quran and has talked to mankind in earlier revelations. And we must answer directly to it. God says in the Quran also that He is the only Rabb, and we acknowledge that directly. So again this is about earlier revelations given to messengers before and the Quran. You only have to look at the first chapter of the Quran, or some verses of older books. Everywhere it is God saying that He is the only Rabb, and by hearing or reading the revelations, we can never say we were not warned.
BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM With the Glorious Name of Allah, the Source of Instant and Eternal Beneficence and Mercy Who embraces the entire Universe in His fold, nourishing and taking care of all things for what they are meant to be, just as a mother's womb nourishes the embryo without any returns.
11 All Praise is due to Allah, the Eternal Source of Life of the Universe and everything therein.
12 The Source of Instant and Eternal Beneficence and Mercy Who embraces the entire Universe in His fold, nourishing and taking care of all things for what they are meant to be, just as a mother's womb nourishes the embryo
14
without any returns.
13 He is the Absolute Owner of the Day when all creation shall have completed their journey of existence, evolution and action to the Ultimate Just outcome. And He is the Supreme Appointer of the Way of Life that mankind may live by in order to attain success in both lives - and this System will most certainly prevail in this world. The Divine Law of Returns takes mankind to the Day of Final Judgment in His Court to account for all they did with the gift of life. This is a Day whose advent is beyond any doubt.14 (Realizing these facts), we affirm to obey You and we ask You to help us (as we do that).
15 Guide us to the Straight Path, that leads us to real success as individuals and nations, - (by providing us with the faculty to listen and not just hear, to observe and not just see, and to analyze and not just blindly follow 1736.)
16 The Path of those upon whom You bestow the blissful benefits deriving from conscious obedience to Your Commands. (247, 3120)
17 Not of those who earn the bitter consequences of rejecting Your Commands, nor of those who fail, by deviating from the Road. (261, 7152, 2969, 3769-71, 4523, 615)"Hear O Israel The Lord our God, is One. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your strenght."Mark 1229,30
"O men, by Me, the Resplendent Protector, is covered the face of the Eternal Cause, the matter. The Spirit yonder in the sun, that spirit dwelling there am I. I am vast like the atmosphere, Greatest of all merit, action and nature am I. Om is my name!" Yayur Veda 4017
"He came as the first Fashioner; brightness mingled itself with the lights. He, the pure creation, He upholds the soul with his understanding; Thou causest both to increase, in heavenly way, O Mazda Ahura, Thou who art also now the Lord."Gatha's 17
These are just some examples, but everywhere it is God talking to us directly, and when i read or hear it, i witness it, i acknowledge it, i have no excuse on the Day of new Creation that i have never known that God is the Lord.
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Peace bro Arnold,
I do not argue that God communicate with human by means of Pen - Q964. The whole scriptures sent to humankind are the manifestation of communication between God and human. But certain ayats written in the Scripture is to explain the event that indeed took place in reality.
Examples are the Histories of Moses. Conversation between God and Moses did take place in reality and this is recorded as history in the Great Reading. The same thing in Q7172. The event did take place. It is not an allegorical descriptions to show the previous mankind had all received scriptures as a means to witness God. Otherwise God won't say things like "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." It's simply a real conversation that has taken place somewhere. And for me, it's referring to the previous world before we came to this world.
Peace
p/s And this has nothing to do with my conviction on RK.
