Jonah's whale! and was it a whale?
-
Peace,
Al-Hut is a fish, that it later on also was used for whale, was because of Biblical influences made people interpretate it as a whale in those verses, by blindly relying on the Bible story. In that time people didn't knew the difference between a sea-mammal and a fish, so for them it was the same. But now we know better, and know we do know the difference between a sea-mammal and a fish. Al-Hut only means 'The Fish', the 'whale' meaning is a fixed and created meaning through the ignorance of not knowing the difference and through following the Biblical story, and not a real meaning. This is a logical and innocent mistake.
-
Hello All
there is only one word that is used for a Whale and it is a Hoot, anything suggested by others is total non sense, and if you read the story closely you will see that it is clearly a whale and the whale can swallow without biting and if the whale does not, remember that Allah can make the whale do just that to protect Jonah
there is no doubt that what Arnols says is a total non sense and total manipulation to the Arabic language
Subhan Allah,
I guess Arnold, you will be held accountable big times on the JD for those whom it seems delibertly being mislead by you and I tell you mate, I will never allow this to happen (to mislead non arabic speakers) as long as I'm alive and a member on this web site
Salam
-
Peace,
All dictionaries, written by arabs or non-arabs all say al-hut means fish. AB, question for you
-
Can Al-Hut ONLY refer to a whale or ALSO a fish?
-
The word iltaqama comes from the same root as laqm which means a small bite or little piece?
-
That iltaqama fa-ha-fi-l-taqbil means he took her lips in his mouth during kissing?
-
That zoeloemat al-bahr means calamities or distress at sea. That it also refers to darkness is because the human is not able to find his way out of the distress and harm, and by thus is wandering in darkness?
-
That all the arabic you have learned throughout your life is not a static but a live-language which can change over time, and that the meaning of words are determined by the use of those words by the majority, so that the meanings of words you have learned also come from hadith=hearsay/tellings/talk?
These are YES or NO questions.
-
-
Peace,
Hello
All dictionaries, written by arabs or non-arabs all say al-hut means fish.
Well these dictionaries are for you and not for me, in Arabic I don?t translate words into another language to figure out what it means
AB, question for you
- Can Al-Hut ONLY refer to a whale or ALSO a fish?
No, unless we consider the Hut belongs to the fish specious because it lives in the sea, so we can say ?not scientifically accurate yet acceptable? that it is a type of fish named ?Hut? like other type of fish named ?Shark?
- The word iltaqama comes from the same root as laqm which means a small bite or little piece?
The word Luqma, has nothing to do with biting, this is you and the likes of you who lacks Arabic trying to convey, the word luqma means a mouth full, i.e. the size of a mouth full, it has nothing to do with biting mister know it all, now when you apply this, apply on a whale and his mouth full, not your mouth full, also your anatomy of the whale is not admissible because you took Allah ability out of the picture that He can make a whale swallow Jonah without hurting him
Now let me ask you and I would like an yes no answer
Do you believe that Allah can do anything without any restriction or limitation at any time?
- That iltaqama fa-ha-fi-l-taqbil means he took her lips in his mouth during kissing?
No
we are not goimg to talk sex here mate, this is also BS by you and does not exist in Arabic, it is called ?Qabbal Fa Ha? mister know it all and this means Kiss her mouth
- That zoeloemat al-bahr means calamities or distress at sea. That it also refers to darkness is because the human is not able to find his way out of the distress and harm, and by thus is wandering in darkness?
how the hell I answer the above as Yes, No?
well, I have to dismiss it then, sorry
regardless of what you are trying to say, Jonah was in the belly on the whale and the whale was in the darkness in the sea, therefore Jonah was in the darkness of the sea, see, A=B & A=C, therefore B=C
for the next item, because you are talking about my life which you have zero knowledge of I have to break it up
5. That all the arabic you have learned throughout your life is not a static but a live-language which can change over time,Hehe, then prove to us that Hut meant fish about 2500 years ago, can you do that mister before you bloody talk about my life
and that the meaning of words are determined by the use of those words by the majority,
well, I don?t really know how many know that Hut means Hut in Arabic, if you know what I mean
so in Arabic I say it like this Hut is Hut
so that the meanings of words you have learned also come from hadith=hearsay/tellings/talk?
Here is a yes no answer
NO
These are YES or NO questions.
really?
-
Peace,
All dictionaries, written by arabs or non-arabs all say al-hut means fish.
Well these dictionaries are for you and not for me, in Arabic I don?t translate words into another language to figure out what it means
Till now that is the only thing you have done here. And dictionaries follow the rules of the language, and not that of the majority. Just like you they can make mistakes, but that is why i refer to several and just one.
AB, question for you
- Can Al-Hut ONLY refer to a whale or ALSO a fish?
No, unless we consider the Hut belongs to the fish specious because it lives in the sea, so we can say ?not scientifically accurate yet acceptable? that it is a type of fish named ?Hut? like other type of fish named ?Shark?
The problem here is that a whale is not a fish, but a sea-mammal.
- The word iltaqama comes from the same root as laqm which means a small bite or little piece?
The word Luqma, has nothing to do with biting, this is you and the likes of you who lacks Arabic trying to convey, the word luqma means a mouth full, i.e. the size of a mouth full, it has nothing to do with biting mister know it all, now when you apply this, apply on a whale and his mouth full, not your mouth full, also your anatomy of the whale is not admissible because you took Allah ability out of the picture that He can make a whale swallow Jonah without hurting him.
Again dictionaries completly disagree with you. It also has nothing to do with swallowing. Laqama refers to 'take in mouth' be it a small piece or a big piece, or a whole piece, it does not refer to swallowing.
Now let me ask you and I would like an yes no answer
Do you believe that Allah can do anything without any restriction or limitation at any time?
Yes of course. But is that on dispute here? No, not all. It is about if the verses are approached wrong. The arabic allows that it doesn't mean Jonah was swallowed but just grabbed. Allah says throughout the Quran He will not change His laws, this includes Laws of nature, it is not about if He can't do it, it is about that He will not, plus in these verses there is no need to approach it in a supernatural way.
- That iltaqama fa-ha-fi-l-taqbil means he took her lips in his mouth during kissing?
No
we are not goimg to talk sex here mate, this is also BS by you and does not exist in Arabic, it is called ?Qabbal Fa Ha? mister know it all and this means Kiss her mouth
Raghib, Lane, Ibn Manzur's Lisan Al-arab and Tay's all say this does excist in arabic. You are not the only authority on arabic.
- That zoeloemat al-bahr means calamities or distress at sea. That it also refers to darkness is because the human is not able to find his way out of the distress and harm, and by thus is wandering in darkness?
how the hell I answer the above as Yes, No?
Well, can it mean that? Yes or No, is not really that difficult.
for the next item, because you are talking about my life which you have zero knowledge of I have to break it up
You yourself have said many times you grew up in Egypt and have learned arabic just by living in an arab country.
5. That all the arabic you have learned throughout your life is not a static but a live-language which can change over time,Hehe, then prove to us that Hut meant fish about 2500 years ago, can you do that mister before you bloody talk about my life.
Only through dictionaries, but these are more trustworthy then to depend on modern arabic, as a language is never static but ever changing. So can you disprove it cannot mean fish?
so that the meanings of words you have learned also come from hadith=hearsay/tellings/talk?
Here is a yes no answer
NO
All the arabic you have learned in your life comes from a second source. They have taught you the meanings and its uses. So you learned arabic through hearsay, how it is used in your surroundings. So this only represents the arabic of Egypte in the 20-21st century and not arabic in it's total.
You approach these things in your view, and i in mine. But you have no authority to call my view nonsense as many reliable sources will disagree with you. Of course the dictionaries are not a 100% reliable, but they have more authority as they refer more to classic arabic as used in the Quran, then the modern arabic you use. That you disagree with this approach is based on personal preferences, and not on if it is possible or not. So your condemning is again out of place, baseless and dangerous as God will question it as He will question me.
"When reason is against man, man is against reason."
Peace
-
Peace be upon you,
Wether "whale" of "big fish", the MORAL of the story is not lost, so lets not get sidetracked.
The elements of fire and water teach us to be moderate in all things. A little fire is good, like the burning bush for heat or cooking food or providing light, the lot of fire is bad like hellfire, house burning down, etc. likewise, a little water is good, rain to grow food and drink and wash, but a lot of water is bad like a flood.
The whale/big fish belongs to the BIG WATER. Just like with Noahs flood, we must create a stable foundation in order to get across the waters without drowning. A lot of water creates an INSTABLE situation, compared to dry land. We are in search of stable foundations, so we can build, not sandy cliffs. This is why Jonah was put on dry land, a stable foundation after he had been lurking around in instability. Its always good to work from a PLAN, not just drift aimlessly. We see this symbolism in Moses parting the sea, in order to cross on dry ground/stable foundation.
The water represents the subconscious, which is a sleep state and relates to darkness. Most of mankind are trapped in subconcious(not awake). Thats why the flood drowns all the wicked, because the righteous are CONSCIOUS/AWAKE, on solid foundation (Boat).
Let us all be those who are awake, guarding our subconcious from the programming of the wicked philosophies.
Wether the fish bit him or swallowed him, he certainly cannot breath underwater. This is just a metaphorical story, nothing literal about it.
Latsly, I agree with what was already said about the tree/plant growing from him.
-
Quote from Ahmed Bahgat on Today at 015722 PM
Now let me ask you and I would like an yes no answerDo you believe that Allah can do anything without any restriction or limitation at any time?
Quote from arnoldyasin
Yes of course. But is that on dispute here? No, not all. It is about if the verses are approached wrong. The arabic allows that it doesn't mean Jonah was swallowed but just grabbed. Allah says throughout the Quran He will not change His laws, this includes Laws of nature, it is not about if He can't do it, it is about that He will not, plus in these verses there is no need to approach it in a supernatural way.A widely accepted law of nature 'whales hunt seals in water n near beaches to feed themselves'. Now sometime ago there was a program on discovery channel about whales in which they captured 'whales playing with baby seal as if it was a ball and later depositing the baby back to shore'.
The question is how authentic are the natural laws said by scientists. What is natural and super natural ?
-
Peace,
In a belly there is acid which will dissolve the human flesh in a instant. Plus, Ha-Wow-Ta, Hut refers to a fish and not a sea-mammael. Plus the seals will be bitten several times so they will be dead or near dead before swallowed as otherwise it is possible they will damage the stomack-walls when still alive and in panic. This factor cannot be ignored, as any sperm-whale or orca will not swallow a pray without first biting it several times between its teeth. Plus the acid is so strong, it will dissolve the skin rapidly. The arabic clearly allows a much more rational answer so i don't know why people hold on to biblical story which creates tons of contradictions. But people may decide themselves what they believe, as do i.
-
Peace be upon you all,
Wether in the belly or in the mouth, its still not literal. Just like seasbeing split in two, sticks turning to snakes, etc.
-
Peace,
Colin Humpreys, a professor, has investigated what is called tidewinds. This when the tide has the same direction as a strong wind. This will push the water even further into one direction which will cause dry spots in lakes or even seas. In lake michigan this had occured several times, that one side were large area's had turned dry and on the other side where the tide and wind were going,the water had risen for more then 5 meters. It is like having a glass of water and blowing on the water, which will cause a rise of the water on one side and a lowering of the water on the other.
C.Humpreys has investigated this for years at the red sea and found out this tidewind phenomena still occurs every so often, where a part of the sea turns dry, while on both sides there is still water. So the splitting of the sea still occurs today. The miracle with Moses then was the exact timing they were there when this tidewind occured. So the splitting is no miracle, the timing is. When the wind stops, all the water will rush back with tremendous force, which is the flood that took Pharoah and his people. See C.Humpreys book The Miracles of Exodus.
As for the staff, asra also means conviction, strength, community, tribe, truth, belief, all that is connected with 'that which supports, is one and rigid'. So i believe it was not a staff that vibritated like a jann, something unseen, but his conviction.
Although i also see the metaphorical message in those stories, all of them don't contradict with the laws of nature. It is mostly a mythological approach of the Quran which blinds the truth, and neglected the multiple uses of the arabic used. Or it turns out nature still has some tricks up the sleeve as with the tidewinds.
For example Jesus's miracles are explained here
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,416,0,0,1,0
And Solomon's miracle is explained here
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,417,0,0,1,0
-
Peace be upon you ArnoldYasin,
Colin Humpreys, a professor, has investigated what is called tidewinds. This when the tide has the same direction as a strong wind. This will push the water even further into one direction which will cause dry spots in lakes or even seas. In lake michigan this had occured several times, that one side were large area's had turned dry and on the other side where the tide and wind were going,the water had risen for more then 5 meters. It is like having a glass of water and blowing on the water, which will cause a rise of the water on one side and a lowering of the water on the other.
C.Humpreys has investigated this for years at the red sea and found out this tidewind phenomena still occurs every so often, where a part of the sea turns dry, while on both sides there is still water. So the splitting of the sea still occurs today. The miracle with Moses then was the exact timing they were there when this tidewind occured. So the splitting is no miracle, the timing is. When the wind stops, all the water will rush back with tremendous force, which is the flood that took Pharoah and his people. See C.Humpreys book The Miracles of Exodus.
I am confused, I was following with the example of blowing in a glass of water, but how can the wind blow in such a manner that there is still water left on both sides? More than that, we are told that the water on both sides was like MOUNTAINS! (exclamation to emphasize the height of mountains).
Further, the verse gives no evidence of timing, it is written to imply that it was the stick touching the water. Musa was not given a certain time to be there, only told to touch the stick with the water. Was that a DECOY so no onw would know it was really the timing?
As for the staff, asra also means conviction, strength, community, tribe, truth, belief, all that is connected with 'that which supports, is one and rigid'. So i believe it was not a staff that vibritated like a jann, something unseen, but his conviction.
Yes, I also hold that the stick refers to his beliefs/philosphy. So the next question is how does he "touch" the literal sea with his belief/conviction? It is his beliefs that will make a stable path throough instability(large water).
Although i also see the metaphorical message in those stories, all of them don't contradict with the laws of nature.
Which ones don't?
It is mostly a mythological approach of the Quran which blinds the truth, and neglected the multiple uses of the arabic used. Or it turns out nature still has some tricks up the sleeve as with the tidewinds.
I have never seen a large body of water split into two large mountain sized halfs, and while I am thinking about this, wouldnt that type of wind be like a hurricane, many times stronger? Wouldnt that have killed Musa, his community and Firaun and his community all together? Wont the people on the other side of that water get flooded? This all does not add up.
I will take a look at the other links and if I see any thing convincing, I will respond on a seperate thread.
-
Peace be upon you ArnoldYasin,
And peace be upon you,
Colin Humpreys, a professor, has investigated what is called tidewinds. This when the tide has the same direction as a strong wind. This will push the water even further into one direction which will cause dry spots in lakes or even seas. In lake michigan this had occured several times, that one side were large area's had turned dry and on the other side where the tide and wind were going,the water had risen for more then 5 meters. It is like having a glass of water and blowing on the water, which will cause a rise of the water on one side and a lowering of the water on the other.
C.Humpreys has investigated this for years at the red sea and found out this tidewind phenomena still occurs every so often, where a part of the sea turns dry, while on both sides there is still water. So the splitting of the sea still occurs today. The miracle with Moses then was the exact timing they were there when this tidewind occured. So the splitting is no miracle, the timing is. When the wind stops, all the water will rush back with tremendous force, which is the flood that took Pharoah and his people. See C.Humpreys book The Miracles of Exodus.
I am confused, I was following with the example of blowing in a glass of water, but how can the wind blow in such a manner that there is still water left on both sides? More than that, we are told that the water on both sides was like MOUNTAINS! (exclamation to emphasize the height of mountains).
We both know the use of the words mountains is to give the notion how the experience was for the Bani Israel. But to keep in mind, the word taud not only means mountain but also a raised piece of land.
A mountain is only a mountain when it is above 1 kilometer, and i don't believe the water rose up that high. So the use of the word 'mountains' or 'raised piece of land' refer to the impact of the experience and not the literal height of the waterbodies. Also it refers to mountains on both sides, but this does not mean at all that both sides were of equal size. The Red Sea is about 10-30 meters deep where they are to believed have crossed. So if a dry path forms through the tidewind, it means that the side of the tide-direction is at least 20-40 meters and the opposite side is at least 10-30 meters. So i understand perfectly the use of 'mountains/raised piece of land', as this would be exactly the experience described.As for the wind to blow in such a way, i recommend you to take a small basin, put a little layer of water in it, and blow hard on the water in a steep angle of like 70 degrees. You will see one side becoming higher as the water is pushed that way, but also that the wind blocks any water from the opposite side to flood into the dry spot. And yes, this is a strong wind. It is also interresting this is directly described in the Bible as such. So it seems this part of the story is pretty accured.
Further, the verse gives no evidence of timing, it is written to imply that it was the stick touching the water. Musa was not given a certain time to be there, only told to touch the stick with the water. Was that a DECOY so no onw would know it was really the timing?
- So We inspired to Moses ?idrib bi-asa-ka-l-bahra.? So it split into two, each side like a great mountain/walls.
This again has to do with the arabic meanings that are chosen. Darb means to hit, beat, move, march on, to move from one place to the other, to bring forth a parable, and it has more meanings. Asa as said before has multiple meanings, and one of the meanings is people/tribe/community, as asa refers to a state of unity/oneness. So the best translation of this verse is
- So We inspired to Moses ?And move to the sea with your people.? So it split into two, each side like a great mountain.
Although i also see the metaphorical message in those stories, all of them don't contradict with the laws of nature.
Which ones don't?
Read my articles i gave in the links.
It is mostly a mythological approach of the Quran which blinds the truth, and neglected the multiple uses of the arabic used. Or it turns out nature still has some tricks up the sleeve as with the tidewinds.
I have never seen a large body of water split into two large mountain sized halfs, and while I am thinking about this, wouldnt that type of wind be like a hurricane, many times stronger? Wouldnt that have killed Musa, his community and Firaun and his community all together? Wont the people on the other side of that water get flooded? This all does not add up.
As explained, it doesn't really say mountain or refer to a literal mountain. And the wind would be strong, but Humpreys explained it is sustainable to walk in that kind of wind, as he had experienced several during his investigation. So no, it is not like a hurricane, strong, but not strong enough people can't walk or get swept away immediatly.
As you can see, most verses are approached in the Biblical way. Instead of looking at the multiple meanings of the arabic used, people hang on to one view only, which is mostly the majority view.
Peace
-
Peace
There are other verses in the quran that use "al-hut" for fish. quick example 1861
-
Peace,
Exactly, to choose only for 'whale' is a preference for an unlogical story. This goes against the reason of the Quran.
-
Peace be upon you AS,
While I respect your understanding, I do not agree with that scenario. The lesson would be WAIT for some miracle to happen, as oppossed to the understanding that one must rely on CONCRETE/STABLE philosophy, not sandy cliffs.
The God uses Mountain as a concept of greatness, so much so that if this message was revealed to it, it would crumble. Further, I would like proof that the winds needed for such an event would not be hurricane like winds. With all the hurricanes that have come and gone in my life, there has never been any sighting of such a split.
Lastly, where does it say Red sea to begin with?
-
Peace,
Wait? No they were guided to it, the miracle was that it happened exactly the moment they were there. I recommend to read C.Humpryes The Miracles of Exodus. Brilliant research..
-
Peace be upon you,
Wait? No they were guided to it, the miracle was that it happened exactly the moment they were there. I recommend to read C.Humpryes The Miracles of Exodus. Brilliant research..
Respected , but I dont buy "miracles" as such, because then it would mean that the God changes Its way, where was this "timing" when Africans were enslaved? Or when the Jews were in camps, or when the levees broke in New Orleans, or the Tsunami. According to the story, these people who were "saved" were not more rigteous than anyone else, they turned right back to idolatry after seeing such a great "miracle".
Honestly, while I would like to read the book you recommend, I dont see myself giving effort to search it out because it feels like I would be going backwards. If there is anything you would like to share from his research on this thread, I would certainly read it as it would not require work on my part for something I dont think would convince me.
Respectfully.
-
Peace,
Sorry, but that is in itself a flawed argument, as you could also ask why God allwed those things to happen anyway. And why would God send a book also, He does intervene in His own way... I see the symbolic messages behind the occurences in the Quran and in my whole life, but to deny scientific research to prefer over symbolic message, and by thus totaly deny rational translations is not my way of working.
-
Peace be upon you,
Respected. We will have to agree to disagree on this subject.