Jonah's whale! and was it a whale?
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Peace be upon you,
Wether "whale" of "big fish", the MORAL of the story is not lost, so lets not get sidetracked.
The elements of fire and water teach us to be moderate in all things. A little fire is good, like the burning bush for heat or cooking food or providing light, the lot of fire is bad like hellfire, house burning down, etc. likewise, a little water is good, rain to grow food and drink and wash, but a lot of water is bad like a flood.
The whale/big fish belongs to the BIG WATER. Just like with Noahs flood, we must create a stable foundation in order to get across the waters without drowning. A lot of water creates an INSTABLE situation, compared to dry land. We are in search of stable foundations, so we can build, not sandy cliffs. This is why Jonah was put on dry land, a stable foundation after he had been lurking around in instability. Its always good to work from a PLAN, not just drift aimlessly. We see this symbolism in Moses parting the sea, in order to cross on dry ground/stable foundation.
The water represents the subconscious, which is a sleep state and relates to darkness. Most of mankind are trapped in subconcious(not awake). Thats why the flood drowns all the wicked, because the righteous are CONSCIOUS/AWAKE, on solid foundation (Boat).
Let us all be those who are awake, guarding our subconcious from the programming of the wicked philosophies.
Wether the fish bit him or swallowed him, he certainly cannot breath underwater. This is just a metaphorical story, nothing literal about it.
Latsly, I agree with what was already said about the tree/plant growing from him.
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Quote from Ahmed Bahgat on Today at 015722 PM
Now let me ask you and I would like an yes no answerDo you believe that Allah can do anything without any restriction or limitation at any time?
Quote from arnoldyasin
Yes of course. But is that on dispute here? No, not all. It is about if the verses are approached wrong. The arabic allows that it doesn't mean Jonah was swallowed but just grabbed. Allah says throughout the Quran He will not change His laws, this includes Laws of nature, it is not about if He can't do it, it is about that He will not, plus in these verses there is no need to approach it in a supernatural way.A widely accepted law of nature 'whales hunt seals in water n near beaches to feed themselves'. Now sometime ago there was a program on discovery channel about whales in which they captured 'whales playing with baby seal as if it was a ball and later depositing the baby back to shore'.
The question is how authentic are the natural laws said by scientists. What is natural and super natural ?
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Peace,
In a belly there is acid which will dissolve the human flesh in a instant. Plus, Ha-Wow-Ta, Hut refers to a fish and not a sea-mammael. Plus the seals will be bitten several times so they will be dead or near dead before swallowed as otherwise it is possible they will damage the stomack-walls when still alive and in panic. This factor cannot be ignored, as any sperm-whale or orca will not swallow a pray without first biting it several times between its teeth. Plus the acid is so strong, it will dissolve the skin rapidly. The arabic clearly allows a much more rational answer so i don't know why people hold on to biblical story which creates tons of contradictions. But people may decide themselves what they believe, as do i.
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Peace be upon you all,
Wether in the belly or in the mouth, its still not literal. Just like seasbeing split in two, sticks turning to snakes, etc.
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Peace,
Colin Humpreys, a professor, has investigated what is called tidewinds. This when the tide has the same direction as a strong wind. This will push the water even further into one direction which will cause dry spots in lakes or even seas. In lake michigan this had occured several times, that one side were large area's had turned dry and on the other side where the tide and wind were going,the water had risen for more then 5 meters. It is like having a glass of water and blowing on the water, which will cause a rise of the water on one side and a lowering of the water on the other.
C.Humpreys has investigated this for years at the red sea and found out this tidewind phenomena still occurs every so often, where a part of the sea turns dry, while on both sides there is still water. So the splitting of the sea still occurs today. The miracle with Moses then was the exact timing they were there when this tidewind occured. So the splitting is no miracle, the timing is. When the wind stops, all the water will rush back with tremendous force, which is the flood that took Pharoah and his people. See C.Humpreys book The Miracles of Exodus.
As for the staff, asra also means conviction, strength, community, tribe, truth, belief, all that is connected with 'that which supports, is one and rigid'. So i believe it was not a staff that vibritated like a jann, something unseen, but his conviction.
Although i also see the metaphorical message in those stories, all of them don't contradict with the laws of nature. It is mostly a mythological approach of the Quran which blinds the truth, and neglected the multiple uses of the arabic used. Or it turns out nature still has some tricks up the sleeve as with the tidewinds.
For example Jesus's miracles are explained here
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,416,0,0,1,0
And Solomon's miracle is explained here
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,417,0,0,1,0
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Peace be upon you ArnoldYasin,
Colin Humpreys, a professor, has investigated what is called tidewinds. This when the tide has the same direction as a strong wind. This will push the water even further into one direction which will cause dry spots in lakes or even seas. In lake michigan this had occured several times, that one side were large area's had turned dry and on the other side where the tide and wind were going,the water had risen for more then 5 meters. It is like having a glass of water and blowing on the water, which will cause a rise of the water on one side and a lowering of the water on the other.
C.Humpreys has investigated this for years at the red sea and found out this tidewind phenomena still occurs every so often, where a part of the sea turns dry, while on both sides there is still water. So the splitting of the sea still occurs today. The miracle with Moses then was the exact timing they were there when this tidewind occured. So the splitting is no miracle, the timing is. When the wind stops, all the water will rush back with tremendous force, which is the flood that took Pharoah and his people. See C.Humpreys book The Miracles of Exodus.
I am confused, I was following with the example of blowing in a glass of water, but how can the wind blow in such a manner that there is still water left on both sides? More than that, we are told that the water on both sides was like MOUNTAINS! (exclamation to emphasize the height of mountains).
Further, the verse gives no evidence of timing, it is written to imply that it was the stick touching the water. Musa was not given a certain time to be there, only told to touch the stick with the water. Was that a DECOY so no onw would know it was really the timing?
As for the staff, asra also means conviction, strength, community, tribe, truth, belief, all that is connected with 'that which supports, is one and rigid'. So i believe it was not a staff that vibritated like a jann, something unseen, but his conviction.
Yes, I also hold that the stick refers to his beliefs/philosphy. So the next question is how does he "touch" the literal sea with his belief/conviction? It is his beliefs that will make a stable path throough instability(large water).
Although i also see the metaphorical message in those stories, all of them don't contradict with the laws of nature.
Which ones don't?
It is mostly a mythological approach of the Quran which blinds the truth, and neglected the multiple uses of the arabic used. Or it turns out nature still has some tricks up the sleeve as with the tidewinds.
I have never seen a large body of water split into two large mountain sized halfs, and while I am thinking about this, wouldnt that type of wind be like a hurricane, many times stronger? Wouldnt that have killed Musa, his community and Firaun and his community all together? Wont the people on the other side of that water get flooded? This all does not add up.
I will take a look at the other links and if I see any thing convincing, I will respond on a seperate thread.
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Peace be upon you ArnoldYasin,
And peace be upon you,
Colin Humpreys, a professor, has investigated what is called tidewinds. This when the tide has the same direction as a strong wind. This will push the water even further into one direction which will cause dry spots in lakes or even seas. In lake michigan this had occured several times, that one side were large area's had turned dry and on the other side where the tide and wind were going,the water had risen for more then 5 meters. It is like having a glass of water and blowing on the water, which will cause a rise of the water on one side and a lowering of the water on the other.
C.Humpreys has investigated this for years at the red sea and found out this tidewind phenomena still occurs every so often, where a part of the sea turns dry, while on both sides there is still water. So the splitting of the sea still occurs today. The miracle with Moses then was the exact timing they were there when this tidewind occured. So the splitting is no miracle, the timing is. When the wind stops, all the water will rush back with tremendous force, which is the flood that took Pharoah and his people. See C.Humpreys book The Miracles of Exodus.
I am confused, I was following with the example of blowing in a glass of water, but how can the wind blow in such a manner that there is still water left on both sides? More than that, we are told that the water on both sides was like MOUNTAINS! (exclamation to emphasize the height of mountains).
We both know the use of the words mountains is to give the notion how the experience was for the Bani Israel. But to keep in mind, the word taud not only means mountain but also a raised piece of land.
A mountain is only a mountain when it is above 1 kilometer, and i don't believe the water rose up that high. So the use of the word 'mountains' or 'raised piece of land' refer to the impact of the experience and not the literal height of the waterbodies. Also it refers to mountains on both sides, but this does not mean at all that both sides were of equal size. The Red Sea is about 10-30 meters deep where they are to believed have crossed. So if a dry path forms through the tidewind, it means that the side of the tide-direction is at least 20-40 meters and the opposite side is at least 10-30 meters. So i understand perfectly the use of 'mountains/raised piece of land', as this would be exactly the experience described.As for the wind to blow in such a way, i recommend you to take a small basin, put a little layer of water in it, and blow hard on the water in a steep angle of like 70 degrees. You will see one side becoming higher as the water is pushed that way, but also that the wind blocks any water from the opposite side to flood into the dry spot. And yes, this is a strong wind. It is also interresting this is directly described in the Bible as such. So it seems this part of the story is pretty accured.
Further, the verse gives no evidence of timing, it is written to imply that it was the stick touching the water. Musa was not given a certain time to be there, only told to touch the stick with the water. Was that a DECOY so no onw would know it was really the timing?
- So We inspired to Moses ?idrib bi-asa-ka-l-bahra.? So it split into two, each side like a great mountain/walls.
This again has to do with the arabic meanings that are chosen. Darb means to hit, beat, move, march on, to move from one place to the other, to bring forth a parable, and it has more meanings. Asa as said before has multiple meanings, and one of the meanings is people/tribe/community, as asa refers to a state of unity/oneness. So the best translation of this verse is
- So We inspired to Moses ?And move to the sea with your people.? So it split into two, each side like a great mountain.
Although i also see the metaphorical message in those stories, all of them don't contradict with the laws of nature.
Which ones don't?
Read my articles i gave in the links.
It is mostly a mythological approach of the Quran which blinds the truth, and neglected the multiple uses of the arabic used. Or it turns out nature still has some tricks up the sleeve as with the tidewinds.
I have never seen a large body of water split into two large mountain sized halfs, and while I am thinking about this, wouldnt that type of wind be like a hurricane, many times stronger? Wouldnt that have killed Musa, his community and Firaun and his community all together? Wont the people on the other side of that water get flooded? This all does not add up.
As explained, it doesn't really say mountain or refer to a literal mountain. And the wind would be strong, but Humpreys explained it is sustainable to walk in that kind of wind, as he had experienced several during his investigation. So no, it is not like a hurricane, strong, but not strong enough people can't walk or get swept away immediatly.
As you can see, most verses are approached in the Biblical way. Instead of looking at the multiple meanings of the arabic used, people hang on to one view only, which is mostly the majority view.
Peace
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Peace
There are other verses in the quran that use "al-hut" for fish. quick example 1861
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Peace,
Exactly, to choose only for 'whale' is a preference for an unlogical story. This goes against the reason of the Quran.
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Peace be upon you AS,
While I respect your understanding, I do not agree with that scenario. The lesson would be WAIT for some miracle to happen, as oppossed to the understanding that one must rely on CONCRETE/STABLE philosophy, not sandy cliffs.
The God uses Mountain as a concept of greatness, so much so that if this message was revealed to it, it would crumble. Further, I would like proof that the winds needed for such an event would not be hurricane like winds. With all the hurricanes that have come and gone in my life, there has never been any sighting of such a split.
Lastly, where does it say Red sea to begin with?
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Peace,
Wait? No they were guided to it, the miracle was that it happened exactly the moment they were there. I recommend to read C.Humpryes The Miracles of Exodus. Brilliant research..
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Peace be upon you,
Wait? No they were guided to it, the miracle was that it happened exactly the moment they were there. I recommend to read C.Humpryes The Miracles of Exodus. Brilliant research..
Respected , but I dont buy "miracles" as such, because then it would mean that the God changes Its way, where was this "timing" when Africans were enslaved? Or when the Jews were in camps, or when the levees broke in New Orleans, or the Tsunami. According to the story, these people who were "saved" were not more rigteous than anyone else, they turned right back to idolatry after seeing such a great "miracle".
Honestly, while I would like to read the book you recommend, I dont see myself giving effort to search it out because it feels like I would be going backwards. If there is anything you would like to share from his research on this thread, I would certainly read it as it would not require work on my part for something I dont think would convince me.
Respectfully.
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Peace,
Sorry, but that is in itself a flawed argument, as you could also ask why God allwed those things to happen anyway. And why would God send a book also, He does intervene in His own way... I see the symbolic messages behind the occurences in the Quran and in my whole life, but to deny scientific research to prefer over symbolic message, and by thus totaly deny rational translations is not my way of working.
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Peace be upon you,
Respected. We will have to agree to disagree on this subject.
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Peace,
He also intervened when He gave the Quran, and through revelation He led them towards a natural phenomena that was occuring on the moment which they could use to escape the tirant. Just like through revelation the Prophet was helped to escape his tirants. And the Quran shows us how to escape our tirants too, you read the Quran now, you leanr from it and your lives are formed around it, God intervenes through His revelation, but only when we accept the revelation, this was the same with Moses, throughout the story people rejected the revelation and accepted, this is no different now a days with the Quran...
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Peace
I definitely agree with Bro ArnoldYasin. Miracles happen all the time. If this universe is built on order, then many people should not be living due to horrible accidents, diseases, etc. But they miraculously recover when all odds are against them. God can save some people from natural disasters in order to test them for awhile to see if they will be grateful. Life is very complex and to view it as just black and white would make you miss out on alot. Just because seas don't part anymore doesn't mean that God isn't around anymore to deliver us from harm. Look back in your life and look around you and you will find many miracles that happened to you. You'd be a fool to think it was all a coincidence.
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Peace
I definitely agree with Bro ArnoldYasin. Miracles happen all the time. If this universe is built on order, then many people should not be living due to horrible accidents, diseases, etc. But they miraculously recover when all odds are against them. God can save some people from natural disasters in order to test them for awhile to see if they will be grateful. Life is very complex and to view it as just black and white would make you miss out on alot. Just because seas don't part anymore doesn't mean that God isn't around anymore to deliver us from harm. Look back in your life and look around you and you will find many miracles that happened to you. You'd be a fool to think it was all a coincidence.
Peace,
Seas do part nowadays, tidewinds are natural phenomena that occur everywhere on earth every so often, they are unpredictable, and so the miracle with Moses was that he and his people were led to a part of the red sea where this was occuring, that they were at the exact spot at the exact time is the miracle, a miracle through revelation, but the splitting itself is no miracle. Just a rare natural phenemona...
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Peace be upon you,
He also intervened when He gave the Quran, and through revelation He led them towards a natural phenomena that was occuring on the moment which they could use to escape the tirant. Just like through revelation the Prophet was helped to escape his tirants. And the Quran shows us how to escape our tirants too, you read the Quran now, you leanr from it and your lives are formed around it, God intervenes through His revelation, but only when we accept the revelation, this was the same with Moses, throughout the story people rejected the revelation and accepted, this is no different now a days with the Quran...
The book we call "Quran" did not come down from the sky, it is the work of an enlightened being who programmed thier spirit(nafs) to manifest the God's attributes. Thereby bringing him to a level(maqam) where he could intuit the God's message from the Universe(al kitab). There is no intervention there, just hard work by devoted person(s).
Further, we are told that all messengers had the VERY SAME MESSAGE, so where is this timing spoken of in "Quran"?
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Peace be upon you,
I definitely agree with Bro ArnoldYasin. Miracles happen all the time.
I would say that is subjective statement, especially when we dont see sticks turn into snakes or seas spilt with both sides like mountains.
If this universe is built on order, then many people should not be living due to horrible accidents, diseases, etc. But they miraculously recover when all odds are against them.
There is no way you can judge that way. You have no idea of the persons inner health or thier level of vitality, there are so many factors.
God can save some people from natural disasters in order to test them for awhile to see if they will be grateful. Life is very complex and to view it as just black and white would make you miss out on alot. Just because seas don't part anymore doesn't mean that God isn't around anymore to deliver us from harm.
So does the God pick and chose who to save? Does God play favorites? We reap ONLY what we sow, even the size of a seed, isnt that so?
Look back in your life and look around you and you will find many miracles that happened to you. You'd be a fool to think it was all a coincidence.
Nothing is a coincidence, there is such a thing called destiny, however the God does not break the laws for some and subject others to the law. We reap what we so. If you say the God intervenes, then reaping what we sow would be false and therefore we have a contradiction. Please let me know your thoughts on this.