''''''Help'''''''

adley

Salaam Arnold,

Oh, yes, that is also very true. They may answer it as such.
I didn't think it that way before.

=adley=

arnoldyasin

Peace,

That is why i believe it is important to show their God's image is out of focus. As long as they approach God as a ritual, praise-demanding Diety, they will not see anything wrong with their practices, they will think they are fulfilling God's demand, but in reality they are fulfilling what they believe God demands, as their image is in reality a projection of humanrulers on God. How humanrulers ,now and in the past, have demanded worship, acknowledgment, praising and fear for their power, they can kill or punish anyone without any reprocussions; if humanrulers behave like this, then the ruler of the universe must demand even more. This is their mistake. As long as they don't change their God's image they will not understand the purpose of their excistence and why God would send Revelations.

siki

One other thing. We can approach the quran in 2 ways

We tell the quran what to say and what to teach
We let the quran do the talking and teaching

Ask them to choose one of the above.
And if the quran failed to "satisfy" their rituals, then there are only two possibilities

the quran sucks
they were wrong
adley i like your arguments,,,come on give me more,,,,

yasin you ,me and all on this forum are at different level ,, we got to understand their psyche,,, they are at an infancy stage,, i have to tow a very fine line ,
a little overboard and i am on their left side,,,and then nothing would make any sense to them ,
i got to start at their level , bit by bit and then gradually pull them along .

if i stright way tell them those hard facts which we have taken years to make sense of
they will not be able to digest that,
siki

arnoldyasin

Peace,

Yes, first show the Quran is the only source, then bit by bit we start on their God's image.

siki

yasin ,, thanks brother i have your article ,,,,but to begin with i need some quick
witty picks (the way brother yuksel does),,, but every thing is welcome ,,,
siki

Wakas

peace siki, all,

Your response will partly depend on what you believe "salat" to mean, but here is a few things you can try

Firstly, clearly state it is impossible to get a coherent method of traditional prayer from ahadith. This is FACT, see the following
http//members.aol.com/Mamalek2/qbook11.htm

Try and get them to admit this openly.

Next, give them ALL the occurrences of the root of "salat" (Sawd-Lam-Waw) and ask them to show you out of the 99 occurrences, how many show "salat" clearly means "prayer". Here are the occurrences

musalla n. m. - 2125

salat n. f. sing. - 23, 243, 245, 283, 2110, 2153, 2177, 2238, 2277, 443, 477, 4101, 4102, 4103, 4103, 4103, 4142, 4162, 56, 512, 555, 558, 591, 5106, 672, 692, 6162, 7170, 83, 835, 95, 911, 918, 954, 971, 9103, 1087, 1187, 11114, 1322, 1431, 1437, 1440, 1778, 17110, 1931, 1955, 1959, 2014, 20132, 2173, 2235, 2241, 2278, 232, 2437, 2441, 2456, 2458, 2458, 273, 2945, 2945, 3031, 314, 3117, 3333, 3518, 3529, 4238, 5813, 629, 6210, 7023, 7034, 7320, 985, 1075
salawat nom. gen. n. plu. - 2157, 2238, 999, 2240, 239

salla vb.II m. - perf. act. 7531, 8715, 9610
impf. act. 339
plu. neg. 4102,
plu. 4102,
tusalli neg. 984
yusallee sing. 3343
yusalloona plu. 3356
salli impv. 9103
salloo plu. 3356, 1082
musalleena pcple. act. plu. acc. gen. 7022, 7443, 1074

They will struggle (I have only found one).

Then ask them, does Al Quran use different meanings for "salat", yes or no? If they argue, use some of these examples
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/does_it.htm

Ask them if they are familiar with its Classical Arabic meanings? Give them.

Hit them with 7531-32 which clearly demonstrates a basic meaning, see
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/slw.htm

Force them to give you their understanding of 1187 with "salat" meaning "prayer". Force them to review chapter 9 with their understanding
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htm

I can only help you up to this point, as I dont know what your view on "salat" is, so I dont know which way you want to go with it.

Let me know how it goes as I used the above method recently in a traditional forum. The problem is that so many of their beliefs are wrong, you end up having to go through every single point (most not even related to "salat&quot for them to actually acknowledge anything.

ps - I agree that building things up gradually is the best way but if your at this point, you might as well roll with it.

TheNabi

Peace Siki

Perhaps you should present these things as you understand them presently and not as others do, even if your understanding may not be quite right. Someone's understanding may seem great or better for you to put out there for your opponents, but it's not being quite honest. If your knowledge is lacking and you cannot present them with any answers then I'd suggest letting your opponents know of your lack or knowledge or ignorance of the subjects. Otherwise, show them what you believe to be true.

Joe

zenje

Peace siki,

Agreed with what Joe said. Whatever you do, be honest, be confident and don't compromise anything. The last thing you want to do, is say things "they" want to hear, trying to please "them" so they can buy into it. The truth is ugly to many, don't try to make it beautiful. Your aim is not to convert them, but just to speak the truth.

peace

siki

i am quite clear on the issue , and inshallah i will be able to present it well. but what i need is some initial logical jolts to make them attentive,,,,,,(" hey guys listen , this man may have a point ,,lets at least listen what is he saying&quot then onwards , i can handle it

siki

Layth

Peace,

If I may add a suggestion...

Repeat to them that the Quran is complete & fully detailed as per the verses that mention these truths. Now, they will agree with you absolutly on this, but go on to say yes, but where can we find the Salat?.

Point them to the verses on Salat in general terms.

Verses on Salat

Ablution 56
Timing 11114, 1778
Names of Salat 2458, 2238
Number of Units/Sajdas per Salat 4102
Moderate Tone to be used 17110
Quran is to be Read during Salat 1778
Others Words to Say 17111

Do not debate the issue with them further unless the confess openly that the Quran is detailed and complete as God has stated and as you have pointed out. If they confess that the Quran is detailed, then it is over and they have accepted submission to God as a way, if they refuse to confess then it is also over as they have made-up their minds to stick with what they have.

adley

Salaam Siki,

adley i like your arguments,,,come on give me more,,,,

Err.. that's the problem bro. I suck at arguments

However, what the others have said really say it all.
As Layth said, show them 6114-115 gazillion times if necessary. ;D
For those who say that they agree/accept/etc with the verses, then you can use my arguments. They should be able to answer the multiple choices better now.
On the other hand, you must have realized that my arguments will not work on those who are bent on not accepting 6114-115. The main indicators of these people are those who love to use the word "BUT"

By the way, how do you want to approach this salat issue anyway? Pure physical? Because that might be the best way to start (at least according to my personal life experience). But I'm not sure whether you want to go with 5 or the alternatives.

=adley=