to those who think salat=prayer and nothing else...
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peace all,
Translating salat as 'prayer' in the following verses does not fit. Translators such as Yusuf Ali recognised this and ammended his translation accordingly.
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To those will be salawat from their Lord and a mercy, they are the guided ones.
Does the Lord pray for people? (salawat = plural of salat)
Preserve the salawat, and the wusta (middle) salat, and stand/persist devoutly to GOD.
Why would God mention to preserve the prayers, and then say "... and the middle prayer" ? Surely, the first comment includes the middle prayer? Is there something special about the middle prayer? Is it better?
So when the sacred months are passed, then you may kill those who have set-up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold the salat, and contribute to the zakat, then you shall leave them alone. GOD is forgiving, Merciful.
Is God saying here that the unbelievers must perform prayers if they are going to be forgiven by the people? The essential point of prayer is that one believes in a higher being! Therefore why force them into praying if they are idolaters? If so, this would contradict 2256 "no compulsion in religion".
They said 'oh Shuaib, does your salat instruct you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do with our money as we please?. You then are the compassionate, the sane!'.
Receiving instruction/laws through prayer? How does Shuaib's "prayer" affect the spending of others?
Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the earth glorifies GOD, even the birds assembled (with wings expanded)? Each knows its salat and its glorification. And GOD is fully aware of everything they do.
Do birds pray?
And from the Nomads are those who believe in God and the last day, and he looks upon what he spends to make him closer to God, and the salawat to the messenger. It indeed makes them closer. God will admit them in His mercy; God is Forgiving, Merciful.
How does looking upon whats one spends make one closer to the prayers of the messenger?
Take from their money a charity to purify them and better them with it, and salla them. Your salat is a tranquility for them, and God is Hearer, Knowledgeable.
How can one's salat be a tranquility for someone else?
In each of these examples, are you having to force your opinion on the verse?
Well known translators (e.g. Yusuf Ali) have used different words depending on context, see the following for one example
Yu-sal-lu means prayer in Chapter 4 Verse 102 but not in Chapter 33 Verse 56. Same word, different translation.
Wakas
NB I did not come to a non-'salat=prayer' understanding in a week! Its taken 3 years, as I have built up my knowledge/understanding.
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Preserve the salawat, and the wusta (middle) salat, and stand/persist devoutly to GOD.
Why would God mention to preserve the prayers, and then say "... and the middle prayer" ? Surely, the first comment includes the middle prayer? Is there something special about the middle prayer? Is it better?
Apply the same logic for "...and a balanced salah" please. If ALL prayers were mentioned already (as you say) then why would God add "and a balanced salah"? Please dont use doub?e standards.
BTW isnt it "the balanced salah", since "al" is used? So shouldnt it be (IYO) "the balanced salah"? Do you think that makes sense?!
Peace
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Peace progressive,
Saying "guard/protect salawaat and the middle salaat" would be redundant because "the middle salaat" cannot refer to all salawaat and will therefore be redundant because all salaats were mentioned already. Saying "guard/protect salawaat and the balanced salaat" would not be redundant because "the balanced salaat" adds a descriptive attribute to all salaats, i.e. each salaat of the salawaat should be a balanced one.
In Arabic literary style, if it is said "guard/protect salawaat and the balanced salaat", it would mean "not only uphold/establish salaats in your lifetime but uphold/establish each one of them in a balanced manner". The second part ADDS a descriptive attribute to all salaats and is thus not redundant. "THE" in "the balanced salaat" adds emphasis meaning EACH salaat of the salawaat should be balanced.
If there was no "the" and it just said "guard/protect salaats and salaat al-wusta" without an "al" before "salaat", then you would have been right and it could have only meant "middle salaat" but then it would have been redundant and thus a poor literary expression. The "AL" before salaat in "al-salaat al-wusta" actually is proof that "al-salaat al-wusta" in that sentence cannot be a "middle" salaat but refers to a descriptive attribute of each and every of the salawaat mentioned prior to it and can therefore only mean "the balanced salaat".
Think about this and read again and again until you understand it. Combine this with the other reasons given in Wakas's referenced thread above http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0 and you will get a clearer picture of why it can only mean "the balanced salaat" in 2238.
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p1993,
I have already clearly explained my view on 2238.
See reply #17 on http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0The fact that you think it is double standards shows how ignorant you are of logic and/or you cant read properly.
Wakas,
I know that you either hate me or always have a problem with my views. Just because of that doesnt mean that I am wrong and you are right. I have looked at the issue of 2 salaat and was very close to believing that God ordained 2 salahs in the Quran. However, I have come ot the conclusion that there are more than 2. Currently I am holding the view that it is 3, however there is also some evidence that it is 5, but 3 seems most logical to me at present.
@ the initial topic
I agree that "salaat" does not mean contact prayer in all of it's occurences. I will post my interpretation on one of the verses that includes "salah" which I dont think means prayer, so we can discuss on that tomorrow.
Peace
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Peace,
Arabic has its own literary style. The closest example I can think of in English would be
If I say "play all games and the football game", it would be redundant because all games have already been mentioned.
But if I say "play all games and the best game", it would mean that I want you to play all games in the best possible manner.
There is also another serious flaw with the middle salaat theory because it is a fact that no time range has been mentioned for a middle salaat. If there is a middle salaat then is it middle of daytime or middle of night? The word middle itself does not tell us that so a time range is necessary to determine that. How can the god forget such a critical detail?
No more comments from me on this issue.
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Peace,
Arabic has its own literary style. The closest example I can think of in English would be
If I say "play all games and the football game", it would be redundant because all games have already been mentioned.
But if I say "play all games and the best game", it would mean that I want you to play all games in the best possible manner.
There is also another serious flaw with the middle salaat theory because it is a fact that no time range has been mentioned for a middle salaat. If there is a middle salaat then is it middle of daytime or middle of night? The word middle itself does not tell us that so a time range is necessary to determine that. How can the god forget such a critical detail?
No more comments from me on this issue.
"wa" does not have to add. For example I could say "play all games, including soccer." OR "play all games, especially soccer." With this, I am not ADDING, but EMPHASIZING. Similarly my understanding on 2238 is
"Preserve/guard all the contact prayer, especially/including the middle contact prayer..."
In 11114 it is the same thing. The "wa" doesnt add, but clarify, emphasize.
Furthermore, the fact that "salawat" is used indictes to me that there are at least 3 prayers. You will probably object or give me a link for something, but if your view is different, then thats OK. -
Peace,
It does not mention anywhere in the context of 2238 that it refers to one day. If you say that salawaat here refers to salaats only in one day then that is a complete assumption on your part. Assumption about what the god says = ascribing lies to the god. Therefore, because a day is not mentioned in its context, the only interpretation of 2238 could be that it is talking about all the salaats in one's lifetime. Then middle salaat would mean the salaat in exactly the middle of one's life. How will you determine the salaat exactly in the middle of your life?
You are right that the "wa" here clarifies. It clarifies that each salaat of our lifetime should be upheld in a balanced manner. That is the only way it can clarify without being redundant. In every example from the qur'aan where "wa" clarifies, it gives an additional clarifying attribute or description of what is mentioned before, but does not repeat what has already been included in what was mentioned before.
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Peace,
Arabic has its own literary style. The closest example I can think of in English would be
If I say "play all games and the football game", it would be redundant because all games have already been mentioned.
But if I say "play all games and the best game", it would mean that I want you to play all games in the best possible manner.
There is also another serious flaw with the middle salaat theory because it is a fact that no time range has been mentioned for a middle salaat. If there is a middle salaat then is it middle of daytime or middle of night? The word middle itself does not tell us that so a time range is necessary to determine that. How can the god forget such a critical detail?
No more comments from me on this issue.
Dear Brother
You are discussing this verseYou said
If I say "play all games and the football game", it would be redundant because all games have already been mentioned
If you are trying to apply this analogy on the above mentioned verse then it is absolutely not true.Your problem is you apply principles of one language on another. Arabic has its own dimentions which I told you in a previous encounter in discussion of the word "masjid".
If you had read the conjunctions in details in arabic you would not committed this mistatake. In arabic it is not uncommon that "all members of the group " are described first then "one particular member " is put after a connecter "waw" to show emphasis. It does not mean that singled out member is "not the member" of that group.
Look at other examplesIn this example you see that "Pomegranate" (Rumman) is put in conjuction with "fruit" (Faakiha).
Here you can again notice that word "nabiyyeen" is mentioned first then some of members of this group.
In Arabic grammatical language it is called .
So "salaat ul Wusta" is one member of the group of "salawaat"
Regards -
Salaam Q-student. I value your explanations greatly and try to benefit from them as well as I can. Will you please reply to this argument too by truthseeker
There is also another serious flaw with the middle salaat theory because it is a fact that no time range has been mentioned for a middle salaat. If there is a middle salaat then is it middle of daytime or middle of night? The word middle itself does not tell us that so a time range is necessary to determine that. How can the god forget such a critical detail?
Another thing I don?t know Arabic so have to depend on translations according to which in 4103 means LINKED TO PARTICULAR TIMES. However some people claim that actually means DEFINITE, so is a definite fardh.
Is that true? Is it true that salaat times are not given in the Quran?
Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay -
Peace QS,
Thank you for your examples and the education. You are right. If it was "salaat al-wusta" (without AL before salaat) then it would have been a member of the group "salawaat". I already admitted that in my earlier post. Unfortunately (for you) it is "al-salaat al-wusta", in which "al-wusta" is an adjective of "al-salaat".
"The balanced salaat" is the more likely meaning because of the "AL" before both in "al-salaat al-wusta".
For example "lahm al-khinzeer" can only mean "meat of pig" and cannot mean "ill-seeming meat" (khinzeer is not adjective of lahm because no AL before lahm). For it to mean "ill-seeming meat" it has to be "al-lahm al-khinzeer" or "lahman khinzeeran" (khinzeer is adjective of lahm because AL present before both or absent before both and same ending when absent before both).
For "al-wusta" to mean a part of the day for example middle of the day, and therefore referring to a certain salaat during the middle part of the day, it has to be "salaat al-wusta", but in "al-salaat al-wusta" al-wusta becomes an adjective describing the salaat, and the most likely meaning is "the balanced salaat".
The other two salaats are mentioned in the qur'aan in the form "salaat al-fajr" and "salaat al-3isha" (without AL before salaat), referring to certain times of the day. If there was a salaat during middle of the day it would also have been of the same form "salaat al-wusta" (of course with day mentioned in its context), but it is actually of the form "al-salaat al-wusta" (with no day mentioned in its context) in 2238.
No one has answered my comment which Hasan has drawn attention to
"There is also another serious flaw with the middle salaat theory because it is a fact that no time range has been mentioned for a middle salaat. If there is a middle salaat then is it middle of daytime or middle of night? The word middle itself does not tell us that so a time range is necessary to determine that. How can the god forget such a critical detail?"
Also, there is no mention of "day" or "daytime" or "night" in context of 2238. So even if it means "middle salaat" it can only refer to "the salaat in the middle of all the salaats of one's lifetime" and not "the salaat in the middle of day or daytime or night". Saying that "middle salaat" refers to the salaat in the middle of day or daytime or night would be a complete assumption/conjecture/fabrication and would thus be ascribing lies to the god. I will repeat what I said in my previous post
"Because a day is not mentioned in its context, the only interpretation of 2238 could be that it is talking about all the salaats in one's lifetime. Then middle salaat would mean the salaat exactly in the middle of one's life. How will you determine the salaat exactly in the middle of your life?"
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Peace everyone,
This just occurred to me
Salaat al-fajr is to be upheld exactly in the middle of daytime and night at one end, and salaat al-3isha is to be upheld exactly in the middle of daytime and night at the other end so they are both in the middle, hence BOTH ARE MIDDLE SALAATS. They are also to be upheld in a balanced manner, for example "seek a path in between" (17110). This satisfies both possible meanings of al-salaat al-wusta. This proves that all salaats are actually supposed to be al-salaat al-wusta and this interpretation fits 2238.
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Peace,
It does not mention anywhere in the context of 2238 that it refers to one day. If you say that salawaat here refers to salaats only in one day then that is a complete assumption on your part. Assumption about what the god says = ascribing lies to the god. Therefore, because a day is not mentioned in its context, the only interpretation of 2238 could be that it is talking about all the salaats in one's lifetime. Then middle salaat would mean the salaat in exactly the middle of one's life. How will you determine the salaat exactly in the middle of your life?
You are right that the "wa" here clarifies. It clarifies that each salaat of our lifetime should be upheld in a balanced manner. That is the only way it can clarify without being redundant. In every example from the qur'aan where "wa" clarifies, it gives an additional clarifying attribute or description of what is mentioned before, but does not repeat what has already been included in what was mentioned before.
Another one of your pathetic claims that I am "lying about God". How do YOU know what God thinks? Are YOU trying to play GOD? Are YOU assuming that God thinks that way? We saw how people commented about your posts the past discussion we had.
You are the one making assumptions about what God thinks. We are told in the Quran not to be suspicous about someone without proof. So stop being like that, it's very annoying as others have already said.
Start being open-minded and accept/respect other peoples' opinions.
Now back to the topic.
I find this verse interesting2441 Alam tara anna Allaha yusabbihulahu man fee alssamawati waal-ardiwaalttayru saffatin kullun qadAAalima salatahu watasbeehahu waAllahuAAaleemun bima yafAAaloona
Reformist Translation 2441 Do you not see that everything in the heavens and the earth, even the birds in formation, glorifies God? Each knows its contact prayer and its glorification. God is fully aware of everything they do.
Shabbir Ahmed/QXP Translation 2441 Do you not realize that God, He is the One Whom all beings in the heavens and earth glorify, and the birds, with their wings outspread, as they fly in columns. All of them know their Salaat and Tasbeeh (mission and strife). God is Aware of what they do to fulfill His Plan.
So in this verse could "salat" mean commitment/obligation?
Does anybody know the root of "tasbih"?Peace
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Peace everyone,
This just occurred to me
Salaat al-fajr is to be upheld exactly in the middle of daytime and night at one end, and salaat al-3isha is to be upheld exactly in the middle of daytime and night at the other end so they are both in the middle, hence BOTH ARE MIDDLE SALAATS. They are also to be upheld in a balanced manner, for example "seek a path in between" (17110). This satisfies both possible meanings of al-salaat al-wusta. This proves that all salaats are actually supposed to be al-salaat al-wusta and this interpretation fits 2238.
You mean that they are both BETWEEN the day and the night. However, your point is not valid, since you dont acknowledge "wusta" meaning "middle" in 2238. Also, why can it mean "balanced"? Because when you have equal things on either side of something then you can placesoemthing right in between without the weight shifting anywhere and the lever you would have would be pointing towards the (horizontal) middle.
Waw-Siin-Tay = middle, midst, among, best, best part of a thing, mediate/intercede between, most remote from the extremes, equidistant, intermediate, most conforming/equitable/just/balanced, most excellent of them in particular, occupy the middle position.
Now, of course it can mean "balanced", BUT notice the following "most remote from the extremes". What are the extremes? The ends of the day.
Anyways, we could discuss this for days without agreeing, so lets get back to the initial topic.
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Your Lord would not care about you except for your imploring.
If you " keep" the "prayers", that would be better for you.
sun
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Peace everyone,
Scientifically speaking, the dawn and the dusk periods can each be considered as "middle" of a 24 hour day. These two middles of a 24 hour day are the most easily discernible by using cosmological phenomenon.
The above point is actually moot because there is no "day" or "daytime" or "night" mentioned in the context of 2238. If 2238 is translated as middle, then it can refer to either middle of a person's lifetime or middle of the total time humans will be in existence.
Those who claim that it is middle of daytime ascribe lies to the god because "daytime"/"nahaar" is not mentioned in the context. Those who claim that it is the middle of night again ascribe lies to the god because "night"/"layl" is not mentioned in the context either.
Using the same logic, why can't it be the salaat in the middle of the lunar cycle or why can't it be the salaat in the middle of the solar year? If it is the middle of the lunar cycle then is it the middle point from full-moon to full-moon or middle point from one new crescent to another new crescent? If it is the middle of the solar year then is it the middle point from one solstice to the other or the middle point from one equinox to the other? Why not the middle of the lunar year?
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Peace everyone,
Scientifically speaking, the dawn and the dusk periods can each be considered as "middle" of a 24 hour day. These two middles of a 24 hour day are the most easily discernible by using cosmological phenomenon.
The above point is actually moot because there is no "day" or "daytime" or "night" mentioned in the context of 2238. If 2238 is translated as middle, then it can refer to either middle of a person's lifetime or middle of the total time humans will be in existence.
Those who claim that it is middle of daytime ascribe lies to the god because "daytime"/"nahaar" is not mentioned in the context. Those who claim that it is the middle of night again ascribe lies to the god because "night"/"layl" is not mentioned in the context either.
Using the same logic, why can't it be the salaat in the middle of the lunar cycle or why can't it be the salaat in the middle of the solar year? If it is the middle of the lunar cycle then is it the middle point from full-moon to full-moon or middle point from one new crescent to another new crescent? If it is the middle of the solar year then is it the middle point from one solstice to the other or the middle point from one equinox to the other? Why not the middle of the lunar year?
Dear Brother
Is Quran so difficult to understand that you are persistantly jumping from one concept to the other ?
Regards -
You can use the greeting " good evining" during late afternoon, or at nightime. As a general rule you can start using " evening" an hour before the sun sets. Therefore, the evening salat time commences an hour before the sunsets and lasts untill it has become completly dark outside.
With that, since "evening" can be used 1) late afternoon ( before the sun sets) and also 2) at nighttime ( sunset), do you think that the evening salat can be split into two with late afternoon being considered ( middle)?
I caint really explain it right now.....................................What im tryin to say is that when we hold the evening salat we are glorifyin 1) before the setting of the sun/ lateafternoon and 2) at nightime/ sunset....
hmm
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Peace,
Dear Brother
Is Quran so difficult to understand that you are persistantly jumping from one concept to the other ?
RegardsI am not jumping but just trying to illustrate the serious IRRECONCILABLE flaws in the "middle" understanding which make it UNTENABLE.
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Peace,
I am not jumping but just trying to illustrate the serious IRRECONCILABLE flaws in the "middle" understanding which make it UNTENABLE.
Dear Brother
Your constant striking of your mind against this concept indicates that you, yourself is not getting convinced of your own understanding of this term.
Regards
