THEOLOGICAL FATALISM - ALLAH'S WILL and OTHER CHARACTERISTICS
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Peace Idolfree1
These are some really interesting points you raised that I'll need time to think thru and digest before I can respond one way or another...
Thanks for more food for thought
Would love to see other people's reactions to Idolfree1's last post too it might help the thought process along for me
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Peace Idolfree
One question that pops in my mind ... how do you know that that's true? Is it a leap of faith or is there something that points to us being all a bunch of cups of ocean so to speak?
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peace BOOST
since you wanted someone else's opinion on Kyle's post...
I think he's right. I don't know why, but I never had much trouble accepting many of the things he's said. It's like the more radical the view, the more I'm attracted towards it.
If God is everywhere, then where are we? We have to be part of God. God is closer to us than our jugular vein.
And we all know that everything is nothing but energy. At the atomic level, there is no difference between me and you. The differences are all superficial.
The Matrix will help you understand this, I guess. -
Peace be upon you Boost,
One question that pops in my mind ... how do you know that that's true? Is it a leap of faith or is there something that points to us being all a bunch of cups of ocean so to speak?
Yes, that is the logical question that we must allways deal with to make sure we are dealing with KNOWLEDGE and not just BELIEF. The proof is in the verifyable fact that all material is created from the very same building blocks called Atoms (electrons, protons, and nuetrons). These can be broken down to one energy. This is verified by the famous mathematical formula E=MC(2). Also, science verifies that energy is neither created nor destroyed, doesnt tha sound familiar to part of Surah Iklhas? So we have just now objectively verified that the human vehicle is part of the infinite energy that modifies to bring all materials into being.
I highly recommended certain books before, but for those who are following this conversation and dont have time to get these books, I recommend another book called "The Kyballion" which can be read for free online here; This will help with a lot of the questions and get you thinking in the right direction based on LAW.
http//www.geocities.com/collectumhermeticus/thekybalion.htm
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Peace Idolfree1
It's taking me awhile to go thru the online book you provided for us and digesting this new perspective in the little free time i have these days. I didn't forget about this thread and I hope you'll be patient with me!
One thing that's bothering me is this idea that God is all around us ... is this coming from a verse in the koran?
Also, i'll admit... when i was younger and i read the verse that talks about how God is closer to us than our jugular vein, I thought then God must be blood or better yet, DNA ;D
Although that was a really naiive conclusion I had, is this sort of along the same lines of the whole energy concept somehow? I'm just trying to realign my thought pattern to understand things better
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Peace all,
Boost, if I may offer my own way of reaching an understanding...
This life, this world, everything we perceive via our senses is run through a filter. That filter is the brain. That filter is what translates atomic energy around you into shapes and sounds, etc. But that filter does not define what you see. It only gives you a version of reality. So, in essence, all sensory perception is an illusion.Now, if you were to remove that filter within your brain, then all of life would reveal itself to be a sea of energy. There would be no defined boundaries between you and the furthest star. Kyle's analogy of an ocean works well here. Life is, really, just a massive ocean of energy.
You stated
One thing that's bothering me is this idea that God is all around us ... is this coming from a verse in the koran?
more than one...
"We have created man, and We know what his own self whispers to him, and We are closer to him than the jugular vein" (5016)
What can be closer than the jugular vein?
How can God know unspoken inner dialogue?
When you make a decision to, let's say, move a finger, that command goes from your brain via the neural superhighway and passes along from neuron to neuron millions of times before the information reaches your finger. Between each neuron is space. Imagine, now, if "someone" had the ability to listen in from that space between the neurons. That "someone" would have heard the message millions of times before your finger even moved!
"And to God belongs the east and the west, so wherever you turn, there is God?s presence. God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable." (2115)
Peace,
Tay -
idolfree1 4632
zenje 3798
TheNabi 3396
Ahmed Bahgat 3146
Jaxal 2963
Wakas 2613
mquran 2609
savage_carrot 2190
enquirer 1730
phoenix1 1684Peace Tay,
I took your place on that list!Anyway, well explained.
BOOST, we gotta look at the world like Neo does at the end of the Matrix. Everything is the same, it's ourselves that create differences.
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Peace be upon you all,
Sorry, I have been away from forum for a moment. I agree with the answers Tay gave, he responded properly in my opinion.
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Salaam All,
Matter & Energy
http//web.jjay.cuny.edu/~acarpi/NSC/2-matter.htm
An updated version of this lesson is available at Visionlearning Matter & Energy
Everything in the universe is made up of essentially 2 things matter and energy. Matter describes the physical things around us the earth, the air you breathe, your pencil. Matter is made up of particles called atoms and molecules. Atoms are particles of elements - substances that cannot be broken down further. There are currently 109 known elements, but obviously there are more than 109 different substances in the universe. This is because atoms of elements can combine with one another to form compounds. Molecules are single units of compounds. For example, a glass of water contains many molecules of the compound water. Each molecule of water consists of 2 hydrogen atoms chemically combined with 1 oxygen atom as you can see in the following diagram (hydrogen atoms are represented by white spheres and oxygen by red).
Molecular model of an ice crystal
There are 4 fundamental states of matter solid, liquid, gas and plasma. We will concern ourselves only with the first three since the plasma state does not occur commonly in nature. Continuing with our example, the solid water (or ice) is shown at left. In solids, molecules are tightly packed together. As you can see in the representation, the molecules of a solid do move, however their movement is very limited. As you add energy to ice in the form of heat, you increase the amount of movement by each molecule. The molecules slowly separate from each other and form a liquid state.
Liquid water molecules
Unlike the solid state where the individual molecules are relatively fixed in place, molecules can easily move past one another in the liquid state as can be seen in the diagram at right. As you add even more heat to the sample, the molecules separate further until the point at which there is relatively little interaction between them. At this point, the individual molecules move very quickly. This is called the gas state. In water, the gas state is achieved by boiling water to form steam.
Steam - water molecules in the gas state
Reviewing the above, it becomes apparent that the only difference between the three states of matter discussed is the amount of energy (or heat) in each state.
Potential energy on ledge
Kinetic energy while fallingEnergy is the ability to cause change or do work. Some forms of energy include light, heat, electrical energy and mechanical energy, such as movement. There are two main forms of energy potential and kinetic. Potential energy is energy that is stored, while kinetic energy is energy in use. Let's look at an example. In the previous lesson we dropped a weight from the top ledge of the Leaning Tower of Pisa. As the weight fell it possessed kinetic energy, the energy of movement. Where did that kinetic energy come from? It was stored in the weight when the weight was suspended from the ledge of the tower. We actually put that energy into the weight when we climbed the stairs of the tower carrying the weight with us. Try it again by clicking on the animation.
If you want to explore the interaction between matter and energy further, the Physics 2000 web site has an excellent simulation of the effect of heat on the movement of atoms in their Temperature and Absolute Zero page. The page takes a few extra seconds to load on a slow modem, but it's well worth it.
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Salaam All,
BIG BANG!
http//electrogravity.blogspot.com/2006/02/sir-roger-penrose-on-events-before-big.html
Saturday, February 18, 2006
Sir Roger Penrose on events before the big bang
http//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/hardtalk/4631138.stm
Stephen Sackur talks to Sir Roger Penrose about his latest theory on what may have existed before the Big Bang
Penrose says that because thermodynamics says the universe becomes more disorganised with time, as you look backwards in time the amount of order increases towards infinity. The BBC news reported suggests God is the reason for the initial high degree of order of the big bang, but Penrose defends science.
Penrose's new idea is very simple, one of the 10 components of the spacetime metric is special, and when the universe has eventually decayed entirely into radiation (assuming that even protons decay, albeit with an undetectably long radioactive half-life, as per Standard Model predictions), it loses any meaningful measure of 'time' (I've pointed out in Electronics World and on my site for years that time is entirely linked to organised motion, and when you lose any organised motion, time is meaningless). Therefore, because of the link between space and time (spacetime), space disappears and the state is effectively a singularity.
Hence at the very moment that the last proton or muon decays, the whole universe is then a fresh singularity, and the big bang occurs all over again. (This is entirely different from the old 'oscillating' universe prediction from general relativity.) I'd like to see a complete proof please! Personally, I think Penrose is right, as the idea is factually defendable and yet radically crazy enough to explain everything, and he says it makes testable predictions which astronomy can check.
To Him is due the origins of the skies (universes) and the earth When He decrees a matter, He says to it ?Be!? And it is! (117) chapter 2
Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, ?Be!? And it is! (82) chapter 36
For to anything which We have willed, We but say the word, ?Be!? And it is! (40) chapter 16.
Verily, when He intends a thing, His command is, ?Be!? And it is! (59) chapter 3.
It is He Who gives life and death; and when He decides upon an affair, He says to it, ?Be!? And it is! (6 chapter 40.
Has there not been over human a long period of time, when he was nothing - (not even) mentioned? (1) Verily We created human from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him So We gave him (the gifts), of hearing and sight (2) Chapter 76.
The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, and then said to him "Be!" And he was! (55) chapter 3
Mohamed
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Peace Idolfree1 and all!
I've been deligently doing research into all of this. I found something that I'm trying to understand ... I hope you all can help me
There is a very famous story in ancient Egyptian times of a baby born of virgin birth ...
Another of a mother and her baby and these are actually depicted in statue form in Luxor. the mother and son are opposite each other and a crack in her statue lets out a crying sound when wind passes thru her.
There is also a story written in heiroglyphics of AmenHotep who went to the side of a mountain and fell from awe at the power of God ...
All of these stories have relevance to religious "stories" .... mary and jesus, hagar and ismael, moses and the buning bush ...
I don't know what to make of all of this really ...
Is it that these stories were related to them thru prophets we don't know about? Possibly explaining stories of the future?Or is it that all of these stories occurred during their time and we have history all wrong? That Jesus and Moses and Ismael were all Egyptian? And that Moses was a pharoah????
Or is it that other people later adopted the ancient stories of Egypt and incorporated it into a new-born religion?
Can anyone shed any light into these disturbing facts?
Peace
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Peace Boost, all,
Or is it that other people later adopted the ancient stories of Egypt and incorporated it into a new-born religion?
That seems to be the most likely scenario. Brothers Arnold and Kyle are both much better versed in this subject than me, so they can fill in the details if they wish. But the bottom line is the virgin-birth myth is much older than Christianity and Islam, and followers of both religions have knowingly or unknowingly adopted this myth into their faiths. The Qur'an clarifies this by stating that Isa was just a man like every other messenger, that he was raised in honor, and will be a witness against those who falsely attributed divinity to him. There's been plenty of discussion on this topic so you might want to use the search function to help you reach an understanding.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you Boost,
I've been deligently doing research into all of this. I found something that I'm trying to understand ... I hope you all can help me
There is a very famous story in ancient Egyptian times of a baby born of virgin birth ...
Yes, Heru(Horus) and Auset(Isis). There are many such stories throughout recorded history, this one being the oldest RECORDED story.
Another of a mother and her baby and these are actually depicted in statue form in Luxor. the mother and son are opposite each other and a crack in her statue lets out a crying sound when wind passes thru her.
There is also a story written in heiroglyphics of AmenHotep who went to the side of a mountain and fell from awe at the power of God ...
All of these stories have relevance to religious "stories" .... mary and jesus, hagar and ismael, moses and the buning bush ...
I don't know what to make of all of this really ...
Is it that these stories were related to them thru prophets we don't know about? Possibly explaining stories of the future?Or is it that all of these stories occurred during their time and we have history all wrong? That Jesus and Moses and Ismael were all Egyptian? And that Moses was a pharoah?
Or is it that other people later adopted the ancient stories of Egypt and incorporated it into a new-born religion?
Can anyone shed any light into these disturbing facts?
What it shows us is that these stories are metaphors, used over and over again because of the superiority of metaphorical story telling to make an impression on the spirit(nafs), mainly using the right brain, as oppossed to left brained linear learning.
My position is that later cultures incorporated the stories of the people of Khamit(Egypt) into thier philosophies based on the fact that people all over the known world went to Egypt to learn all of the arts and philosophies. But we also must understand that we can only go back as far as recorded history can take us, we dont know where the origin of these metaphors began, recorded history can only take us back as far as the Nile Valley civilization (Sumer , Khamit, etc)
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Peace
So how do we know that it is a metaphor? I mean AmenHotep said in the heiroglyphics of his temple that, "I went to the side of the mountain and I saw God's Power and fainted" .... How do we know that he really didn't do that and he was telling stories to his people that were all analogies? Is there any evidence to prove that?
The only reason why I'm saying this is because from what limited knowledge i do know of Ancient Egypt, they believed in alot of wacky things ... they had rituals and idols and mindless beliefs that everyone just went along with because they came from the same town... similar to Ancient Greece and their version of gods and goddesses...
So what evidence do we have that when AmenHotep said he saw God and fainted that he wasn't being literal? The same temples spoke of wars and lands that he won... why are those not considered analogies too?It could very well be that it is a metaphor and thats how everyone thought of it i honestly don't know and am honestly asking ... i'm just playing devil's advocate in order to distill any doubts in my mind because i think it's harder to be certain about something that happened so long ago...
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Peace BOOST,
You stated
So how do we know that it is a metaphor? I mean AmenHotep said in the heiroglyphics of his temple that, "I went to the side of the mountain and I saw God's Power and fainted" .... How do we know that he really didn't do that and he was telling stories to his people that were all analogies?
First, metaphors, analogies, and allegories are 3 different things. I'm just learning the differences myself. Wikipedia does a nice job in explaining this.
Back to the point...how does one see the power of God?
Isn't God's power all around us?
Perhaps what AmenHotep was stating was that he'd become aware of God's power as he was on the side of the mountain. And in becoming aware, he stayed locked into that awareness. And as the awareness built and built and his mind was silent in witnessing, his brain just shut down and he fainted, overcome by this magnificence he witnessed. Maybe he saw a lightning bolt, or a ray of sunshine breaking through the clouds, or simply an eagle soaring in majesty. It seems to me that he saw something that triggered his soul into awe, and in that moment he was humbled and infinitely appreciative.The only reason why I'm saying this is because from what limited knowledge i do know of Ancient Egypt, they believed in alot of wacky things ... they had rituals and idols and mindless beliefs that everyone just went along with because they came from the same town... similar to Ancient Greece and their version of gods and goddesses...
Wacky and mindless aren't the first things that come to mind when thinking of the ancients. In fact, I'd say they were genius by any modern standard. Think about this...all over the planet you can find ancient pyramids, and they're always associated with massive and awe-inspiring civilizations - accomplishing feats that to some extent still remain a mystery
Pyramids and the rituals associated were not for the tombs of great kings and such, but they were built as "reception" towers of cosmic energy which later became tombs (in some instances) because the powerful wanted to be buried as close as possible to these zones. However, these great civilizations always used the energies for their own desires, and God always destroys the nation that does not live in harmony with His will.
So what evidence do we have that when AmenHotep said he saw God and fainted that he wasn't being literal? The same temples spoke of wars and lands that he won... why are those not considered analogies too?
As I stated above, it's not necessarily symbolic of anything - it's just that we need to dig a little deeper to understand what's behind that simple sentence.
i'm just playing devil's advocate in order to distill any doubts in my mind because i think it's harder to be certain about something that happened so long ago...
I'd say this is a wise approach. The only true certainty lies in the present.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you Boost,
So how do we know that it is a metaphor? I mean AmenHotep said in the heiroglyphics of his temple that, "I went to the side of the mountain and I saw God's Power and fainted" .... How do we know that he really didn't do that and he was telling stories to his people that were all analogies? Is there any evidence to prove that?
That one statement is not enough to decide, I would need the entire context of that statement to make a more informed decision. But when it comes to things like boys being born of virgins, something that is not scientifically proveable, and is a story that is used over and over again through generations, then you can see that it is a symbolic story. Especially when the symbolisms give you accurate and beneficial guidance to life. Thats what this is all about.
The only reason why I'm saying this is because from what limited knowledge i do know of Ancient Egypt, they believed in alot of wacky things ... they had rituals and idols and mindless beliefs that everyone just went along with because they came from the same town...
Yes, I used to think many of the things were "wacky" until I stopped listening to unqualifies scholars trying to explain a foriegn culture. There is a racist attempt to make all things "old" as pagan and uncivilized to show that Europeans and Chritianity must come save the poor people of the world with "modern" thinking. However the truth is that all cultures went to Egypt to learn.
Regarding rituals, they are very powerful methods of remembering the God's attributes. It involves music, dance, colors, etc. Its like a Coca Cola commercial, you dont just get "buy coke" in black and white, no, you get music, dancing, brilliant colors, magnificent sound effects, etc. We go through rituals all day long for material products and shows, ....the rituals in Egypt are commercials for God. But lets clarify what rituals you were referring to. The "idols" are means fo remembering the attributes, of remembering the path. This is what art should be about, pointing you back to divine guidance, not naked statues promoting lewdness, or statues of sports stars, etc.
similar to Ancient Greece and their version of gods and goddesses...
So what evidence do we have that when AmenHotep said he saw God and fainted that he wasn't being literal? The same temples spoke of wars and lands that he won... why are those not considered analogies too?It could very well be that it is a metaphor and thats how everyone thought of it i honestly don't know and am honestly asking ... i'm just playing devil's advocate in order to distill any doubts in my mind because i think it's harder to be certain about something that happened so long ago...
I think the main thing is just that, there is no way to Prove literal events so long ago...so the only wisdom that can be passed through the ages is symbolic, because THAT can be verified always.